And the cuts continue....

[roymccoy]

My wife and I were at DL today and I stopped by the Gibson Girl Ice Cream Parlor for my usual fix. I asked for my customary cup of ice water (ice cream always make me thirsty for some reason) and I was told, "We no longer give out ice water...I can give you a cup and you can get water across the street by the fruit stand." I asked why they couldn't give out ice water anymore and I was told "I don't know...they just came and took out the water spicket." The water spicket is right below the Nestea button, and she said that it no longer works. Okay folks...here's the "Disney magic" I hear so much about at work. Wow...I really feel the love.

Also, a couple of rides in Fantasyland were closed "just because." Alice and Wonderland was closed (no refurbishment going on) and I asked a sweeper why it was closed and he told me that "when it's slow, they close rides here and there."
Great...do they lower the prices "here and there" too?? No. Of course not.

Roy

[Michelle]

Okay Roy, I'll bite. :)

Why do you go to Disneyland and DCA if nearly every trip results in some disappointment for you? I'm honestly curious. If I was so unhappy with a place I would not be frequenting it.

Sure, there are things I miss at the parks and I don't like some of the cutbacks either. But overall I love both Disneyland and DCA and when I go I focus on what I DO enjoy. :)

It just seems like there is more that you don't like than you DO like, so I just wonder why you keep going. :)

[teri]

Um... not to say that the sweepers at Disneyland are not top notch and sometimes privy to information that others may not be aware of,.... but I certainly would not necessarily EXPECT them to know why a certain attraction has been taken out for the day. Could be any combination of reasons.

And perhaps the water spicket broke? Maybe she really didn't know why... not all casual employees are informed every time a decision is made about maintenance.

Be sure to let Guest Relations know about your concerns next time you go. As much as you complain, I have a feeling you will be back anyway. ;) :)

[year2late]

Dude, if it coninually bothers you so much - stop torturing yourself (and others) and don't go.

Reason #1 From all your posts, it seems as if you hate it.
Reason #2 Don't give Disney your money it only encourages them.

[WDW2002]

and #3 I have heard on other posts, how you (and others) are scaring first timmers.

As with Michelle, I do not see why you continue to go if you are so upset and disappointed in the park(s). Are you hoping that it is different this time?

[roymccoy]

My dad was there the first week it opened. I am a Disney fan. I have had an annual pass since the very early eighties. I try to post
honestly and without too much "rah-rah". Up until just a few years ago, I really didn't have anything negative to say about DL. Then,
I just started noticing changes. Rides started closing with nothing going in it's place. Restaurants started closing early or just closing period. Prices are on the rise and services are waning. It's not some axe I have to grind with Disney, it's just the way I see it. Are you going to tell me that Tomorrowland is better now? The submarine lagoon is better now? The Ranch area? The County Bear Jamboree? The Motorboat River area? The Restaurant off of Main Street? Now I can't get a glass of cold water???
Now rides are closing because of low attendance? I just hate to see this happening. It hurts me to see my beloved DL go down.
You don't know how much I want to be wrong about this. I have kept my family in Orange County just because we love Disney so much but there is no doubt about it...Eisner and company are hurting the park with their penny-pinching. You're darned tootin' that I'm going to complain at City Hall. I'm going to do my part to keep this slippery slope from sliding any farther. I'm scaring off the new visitors by talking about what I see at DL?? I hope not. I just want to share with people what I observe at DL. Many of my posts are very flattering to DL. I will admit though, that lately I have seen more bad then good. I cancelled my WDW this year because of things I read on the WDW boards. I felt that Disney has cut-back too much there this year to earn my money. Too many hotel, ride and show closures to make it worth the coast to coast trip. Am I mad because someone spoke up over there and posted that Port Orleans was closing? That Carousel of Progress was closed? That the Downtown Disney boats were shut down? That the park hours were cut way back? No. It helped me with my decision.

Don't shoot the messenger. I only calls em' as I see's em.

Roy

[year2late]

That is not what is being said at all. If you consistently have major problems that cause grave dissatisfaction with DL - DON'T go. It's kind of a "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" thing. Stop giving them your money. Disney is a business, they listen to loss of revenue first.

[teri]

Well, I understand... we WANT Disney to succeed, we don't want to withdraw our money and support. We are kind of attached to the place. The cutbacks are not pleasant for anyone, and if everyone left and took their money elsewhere, things would just snowball.

The important thing is to give feedback in terms that shows how it is affecting their operation and will have the most potential for positive impact. A constant stream of negative feedback gets shoveled into the PR file so they can respond with a benign but non-committal response. Positive suggestions tend to get a little more consideration, when they have been routed to the right people.

Just my little rah-rah for the morning. :)

[roymccoy]

I have not posted any untruths. I post what I see at the parks...the good and the bad. Hopefully, my posts and everyone else's posts help to give folks who are planing a trip to the resort a little better idea of what they are in for. I appreciated the input over on the WDW boards and I know that there are people who appreciate my posts. We may have a little difference of opinion about the result of things, but you can't deny the facts. Things are not improving at DL right now and services are suffering. You may not think that a cup of ice water is all that big of a deal but think about it, how far has the budget cutting went that ice water has to be eliminated. Oh yeah, I called and spoke with someone in the executive office about the water at the Gibson Girl Ice Cream Parlor and I was told that it is no longer available. They can give you a cup and you can take it across the street behind the fruit stand. Again I ask, how bad and deep have the budget cuts gotten that they need to eliminate ice water? I feel that it is the tip of the iceberg and I feel that it is a trend that needs to stop.

As far as the "If you hate it so much, why do you go?" argument, I love Disney, I just don't like the current state of affairs and managing of the parks and hotels. It would be like asking someone why they continued interacting with a wayward child even though they were doing bad in school, taking drugs and dating a loser...you would still love that person but you would want them to know that you are not happy with their conduct and you would hope that your input would help turn them around.

Well, I still love Disney but I think that she's doing bad in school, taking drugs and going out with a loser.

Roy

[Floydian]

So let me figure this out...

What's her name that is in charge of DL/DCA now would be failing, Eisner sure acts like he's on drugs sometimes, so Pressler would HAVE to be the loser.

Makes perfect sense to me now! ;) :jester: :bounce:

[teri]

LOL! ;)

Hi, Floydian, long time no see. :)

[raidermatt]

Nobody questions how much fun you had at DL in your younger days. I have the same types of memories. For you, however, DL is no longer what you are looking for. That has become very clear. In fact, I did a quick search because I know we have been over this before, and here is a quote from you just a few months ago:

I guess I'll catch em' on the rebound. I've had it....I'm through. A word of caution to anyone who is plunking down hard-earned money for a vacation to the Disneyland Resort...DON'T do it. There's not enough open in EITHER park to justify a trip at this time. Just my opinion, but I'm sure I'm not alone. Time to go cancel. I'm through.

I know the trip you were canceling was for WDW, but you are clearly saying DL is not worth going to. The economy has worsened since this quote, and we are in just about the slowest time of year, so I can't imagine why you expected a rebound. Yet you went, and had your day ruined by a cup of ice water and a couple of closed rides. Then you proceed to crucify Disney (again), and are surprised when people questioned why you even bothered to pull into the parking lot.

Roy, you are free to spend your time however you wish, but I can't for the life of me figure out why you would even consider setting foot inside of DL until you get some kind of indication that things have changed to your liking. The vast majority of the rest of us somehow seem to avoid the problems that plague you, and we have wonderful times. We know you are extremely dissatisfied with all of the parks, and we all know that you no longer feel you are getting a good value. But as long as you keep going back, even though Disney has stated it is staying the course, you will continue to be questioned. That's you're right of course, but you shouldn't be surprised by the reaction.

[teri]

And on the other hand, guys who love Disney this much, that they care to want things to be right, really should come to DIS Meets and meet other people who love Disney this much. :) :) :)

[Safari Steve]

There is no fiscal advantage to taking out the water line, it's the same water you can get "out by the fruit stand". This could not have been a "cut" made for financial reasons, as there is no advantage, and it would not have been removed out of meanness. This was probably the result of a mechanical problem. Very puzzling. I understand why you keep going back, but I do agree that your posts can scare first-timers. I know several people who have visited in the last two years for the first time, and came back gushing compliments. (even about little things like the themed pay-phone message in adventureland). To hear their reports and compare them with yours, you would think you were talking about two completely different places. I found the post you wrote about cuts at DCA causing you to cancel a trip to WDW particularly puzzling...
I think a short hiatus may be just the trick (you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder.)
Best wishes...


Kungaloosh!

[roymccoy]

I just wonder if they stopped offering cold ice water because it might sell a few more $20 cokes?? I said that I cancelled my WDW trip mainly based on what I read on the WDW boards AND seeing the same sort of thing happening at DL and DCA. It sort of backed-up what I was reading about the cutbacks at WDW.

Here...let me do this...I will list what I have seen at DL, without commentary, and you decide for yourself if there has been a degradation of services. No pixie dust, no Disney magic, just what I have seen:

Submarine Lagoon is abandoned
Tomorrowland needs a lot of work
The Motorboat River is empty
The Country Bear Jamboree is gone
The restaurant across from the Plaza Inn is abandoned
Big Thunder Ranch is totally deserted
The Festival of Fools stage area is abandoned
Rocket Rods are abandoned (which took away People Mover and America the Beautiful)
Mile Long Bar in Critter Country is empty
Innoventions is a giant corporate advertisement
The Skyway areas in Tomorrowland and Fantasyland are abandoned
Also, hours are cut at the parks and rides are closed if the crowd isn't large enough.

These are just things I have noted when at the park. I'm not trying to ruin DL for anyone, just point out
that Disney is heading down the wrong road and we should all let them know our concerns. Do you think they left Mr. Lincoln open because everyone said "Oh well...who cares"? No, everyone made a fuss about it closing and the brass decided to leave it. Believe me, if there had been no complaints about it, Lincoln would be history. (no pun intended). How about Mr. Toad? It was saved by people letting Disney know that closing it would be a mistake.

I think what some of you may be failing to understand is that the brass at Disney feel that DL may have too much in it for $43. They think that Walt may have been a little to generous. You want to know what the current management thinks is a "clean sheet of paper" perfect park? Go next door to DCA. That is what they envision a perfect DL park to be. That's what they think $43 is worth. They may be cutting ticket prices and adding things now, but back on February 8th 2001, we got a glimpse of what the future looks like at Disney.
It's big, it's empty and it's cost-effective. I smell money.

Roy

[roymccoy]

that drives me crazy? What is the policy at DL resort for drink re-fills? Some places say you can refill and some say you can't. All the drinks cost $2.19 so I don't see the difference. I feel like Oliver when I go up and ask "can I 'ave some mo' please?" They should
get that together and have a set policy. Either don't do it at all or do it everywhere. (Guess what their answer would be?....three guesses.)

Roy

[WDW2002]

Originally posted by roymccoy
"I just wonder if they stopped offering cold ice water because it might sell a few more $20 cokes??"
In your original post you even said that you could still get your ice water at another stand. Maybe, just maybe, it didn't work because it was broken it does happen ya know. And likely will be fixed the next time you decided to "waste" your money at DLR.

Here...let me do this...I will list what I have seen at DL, without commentary, and you decide for yourself if there has been a degradation of services. No pixie dust, no Disney magic, just what I have seen:

And here is my response (with commentary)

Submarine Lagoon is abandoned - unfortunely true. And yes, so far I don't see anything coming in to replace it. Even though, rumors were that we would be getting a new attraction in its place, by I think 2004/5?? But what I find worse, is the trash in the boarding area,(look at it from the monerail boarding area) that park guest let get in there.

Tomorrowland needs a lot of work - can do anything but agree with you here.

The Motorboat River is empty[b] - a fact I, personally, did not even realize until I took a look at Yesterland (http://www.yesterland.com)

[b]The Country Bear Jamboree is gone - this one bugs me the most. But thats what they call progress. So far they have not officially annonced it but they are planning on replacing it with another attraction.

Big Thunder Ranch is totally deserted - ?

The Festival of Fools stage area is abandoned - actually from what I understand this area can be rented for used by businesses (or I am assuming anyone who has the $$$)

Rocket Rods are abandoned (which took away People Mover and America the Beautiful) - which, again I assume, was not a decision that was made lightly. Rocket Rods, were very bussy/popular attraction.

Mile Long Bar in Critter Country is empty -

Innoventions is a giant corporate advertisement - while this may or may not be true. It has seemed busy each time I have gone. So busy in fact, that we never got to do much. So you may not enjoy this area does not mean that it is not a good attraction / area.

The Skyway areas in Tomorrowland and Fantasyland are abandoned -


Also, hours are cut at the parks and rides are closed if the crowd isn't large enough. - This as always been true. A lot of theme/amuzement parks, simply close all together during the winter. Would this be a better idea?

[roymccoy]

Well, your commentary looks an awful lot like mine. I guess the difference between us is that you are okay with it and I am not. I feel that this is a planned "scaling back" that I don't think would have taken place if we had yelled enough. We slipped quietly into the night and they loved it. This stuff is cumulative. It doesn't happen overnight, it happens over months and years. Suddenly, you turn around and notice that there's a lot less around. As long as we say "thank you sir, may I have another" they will continue to close things at will. JMHO.

Roy

Oh, by the way, I was told that the Gibson Girl Ice Cream Parlor WILL NOT be offering ice water to customers anymore. It is not broken, it will not be fixed...it was removed. It was a calculated decision on someone's part.

[teri]

Given that I have an autistic son who will only drink water and does not eat ice cream, that actually matters to me. It would be a major hassle to go in there, try to order, and then have to go cross the street and get his water before returning to sit down... try doing that with kids, especially with special needs kids, in a crowded park a few times and it gets old.

There has been so much expansion - Tokyo, DCA, resorts - that they have not put resources back into where they were before, with the idea that they would be refurbishing and adding new attractions over time. I don't think any of us knew that this recession would come and blow the bottom out of the travel/leisure industry. I am still blown away that they closed Port Orleans resort at WDW. It has been a rough year.

Well, I hope they can turn things around. But I still think Disneyland is wonderful, just as it is. It could be better, for sure, but it is very nice right now.

[WDW2002]

Originally posted by roymccoy
As long as we say "thank you sir, may I have another" they will continue to close things at will. JMHO

Roy, I hate to tell you but you are the one complaining about EVERYTHING at Disneyland but returning time after time after time. If I disliked so much about a place I would stop coming.


And yes, I have noticed most of the same things you have. But I also know disney is a business that makes business decisions. Some are good, some are not so good. I will not disagree that the cuts seems to be greater now then they have in the past. But so far I have not felt like I was not getting my moneys worth when I have visited the park(s).

One more thing Roy, try focusing on the good things, the things you like and you might even enjoy yourself.

[Bob O]

I like to see posts like roymccoy!!!! Im planning on goimng to DL this Dec. and i find way too much cheerleading going on and like to hear the other opinions!! This gives me a more realistic expectation of what to expect. Disney as a company has decided to make cutbacks at the parks i believe to siphon off money to other parts of the company and takes everybodys good will for granted!!! In a post of the news/rumors board there is a quote from einser himself thta the cutbacks havent affected the guest experience and once attendance returns they will make even more money. And i would agree that the only thing disney understands is money and by people contunially going disney has no incentive to improve. I just hope things improve by time i go but from what ive seen hear and at other web sites i dont see it happening.

[teri]

On the other hand, things are going downhill everywhere right now.... Disney is not immune to recession.

[raidermatt]

Again, nothing wrong with a "Disney has gone down the tubes and is getting worse so I am only posting negative things about my trip" post. But when it comes from the same person every couple of months, it makes no sense. Obviously one cannot be that angry if they continue to go back. Also, Roy tells us to speak with our pocketbooks while he continues to go back????

BobO- I agree, a dissenting opinion is good. And a bad trip report from somebody who claims they are never going back can be good, useful information. But when the person continues the same pattern, says they are through, then goes back anyway, it starts sounding like the Boy who Cried Wolf. A negative viewpoint is only useful if it is honest and balanced. Certainly Roy's reports cannot be both. For if they are honest, he would not return for quite some time.

For the record, I am not thrilled anytime something goes away. But it would be dishonest to advise people to not attend the parks because of what has gone away. If one truly loves attractions like Peter Pan, Dumbo, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion, Mr. Toad, Big Thunder Mountain, DL Railroad, Indiana Jones, Tiki Room, Mr. Lincoln, Matterhorn, Toontown, Star Tours, Believe Firworks, etc, etc, etc, then their is still plenty of reason to go. Nowhere else can one find this collection of family entertainment. So how can we honestly advise people that even though they may love these attractions, they should go to Knott's Berry Farm instead?

It does no good to tell Disney they will lose your money, then turn around and walk into the park. This is merely an empty threat, and Disney will realize that because attendance will not be affected. If you want to speak with your pocketbook, you have to actually stay away. Otherwise, a rational letter telling Disney that you are a loyal customer who still loves the parks, but is disappointed with some specific changes will have a much greater impact.

[roymccoy]

Raidermatt....I am an annual passholder and we go to the parks quite a bit. My point is that we are seeing a recent and accelerated decline in services and attractions and I'm afraid that this may no just be "economic circumstances" alone. I think that the brass at Disney right now is slowly and methodically giving us less for our money. I think that they feel that DL has too much in it for $43. I think that they think that Walt was a little too generous with his first park. You can look at DCA to see what Eisney and company think $43 buys you today. I just want to point out that we may be being duped. We've lost WAY to many rides, restaurants and "lands" the last few years and almost all of the promised and rumored replacements have not come to pass. Where is Pooh? Where is the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ride? Where are all the things that were promised at the time of closing that never came to pass. I maintain that we need to be vocal to Disney about these things. We can't just sit here and defend them all the time. They probably chuckle at us a little when we do that.

Roy

Why did you jump all over BobO? Just because he thought my posts were helpful? I am going to hazard a guess that there are more than a few people who welcome a dissenting opinion now and then.

[Thumper1]

I do hope that you are writing your comments to the Walt Disney Company and not just on these boards. I think that your written comments to the company would carry more weight than letting us know. I appreciate hearing your comments, but Disney might do something if they get enough written comments.

[Floydian]

The problem as I see it lies more in the fact that Disney is under such scrutiny. This doesn't condone their decisions, or make them more acceptable to me. But it's far from uncommon in the world of business.

For example, how many manufacturers have offered "new and improved laundry detergent" at the "same low price"? All the while, the only things different are the "new and improved" tag on the box, and the fact that the box now contains LESS of the exact same product than it used to, at the "same low price". So you're getting less of the same product for the same money.

That seems to be the same stunt that Disney is trying to pull. However, most people don't watch their everyday soap products so closely. But Disney? Well, look around, that's kind of why we're all here, right?

So it's just Disney trying to pull the same stunt that so many other businesses do, without the brainpower to realize that they have a following, and fans, and people to call them on their bogus claims and marketing hype.

I have always, and will always, continue to appreciate the negative comments just as much as the positive. I may not like to know that bad things are happening, but it's better than not knowing anything at all.

PEACE! :)

[Bob O]

Wouldnt it be nice for a change for disney to offer the guests something extra to induce us to come back more often rather than just cut backs things??? Add things to a park to induce more return visits. I know of a small park in Indiana-Holiday World- that to get guests to return more often offers their patrons free parking, free soda and now this year free sun block. I dont expect disney to do the same but wouldnt it be nice for them to give something back to the customer to get us to return, some type of program to give benefits to loyal customers who return often. Most business's do that but i dont see disney doing it, instead they rely on the goodwill they have developed over the years.

[roymccoy]

I think maybe Disney might have had it a little too easy for awhile and they started thinking that we would buy ANYTHING!
I feel like maybe they're being forced to reconsider their present strategy and MAYBE they are realizing that they can't ride the Disney name forever without substance behind it. I hope they realize that more budget cuts aren't the way to go. If they want to return to the glory days, they are going to have to spend MORE, not less on the parks. I remember when Eisner came in, Disney was in bad shape. They were thinking of closing a day or two a week, the rides were in disrepair and there wasn't a whole lot going on. They looked like a prime takeover target because their stock was so low. Eisner could have done one of two things...he could have tried to save even more money and make it look like Disney was making more profits than it was OR he could have spent a lot of money on rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company, bringing in more customers and generating more money. Both directions would have probably bumped the stock price up, but only one would put the company on the right track for years to come. Well, here we are again. Disney's stock price is low, there is speculation that it might be a takeover target and there is talk of closing DCA a day or two a week. Just like 20 years ago, it's time to decide which direction to go. They could cut costs and services and make the profits look artificially higher (just as they could have 20 years ago) or they could spend a whole lot of money rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company. This time it seems that they are going to cut costs and services. Doesn't make any sense.

Roy

[mmocken]

Originally posted by Bob O
Wouldnt it be nice for a change for disney to offer the guests something extra to induce us to come back more often rather than just cut backs things??? Add things to a park to induce more return visits. I know of a small park in Indiana-Holiday World- that to get guests to return more often offers their patrons free parking, free soda and now this year free sun block. I dont expect disney to do the same but wouldnt it be nice for them to give something back to the customer to get us to return, some type of program to give benefits to loyal customers who return often. Most business's do that but i dont see disney doing it, instead they rely on the goodwill they have developed over the years.

Hello Bob O,

Well in the1994 recession thats exactly what WDW did! They made value meals at all the counter service and early bird specials in the sit downs. Held the prices on everything else, and cut no services or shows (that I recall). I think the reasoning was to keep the resorts full and make a little less at the parks.

I've read a lot boards here and posted my opinions too. I find that 'some' people get a little defensive about Disney criticism. But freedom of speech is importants and rebuttals are fine by me.

With that said, I enjoy every Disney vacation. Some are better than others. BUT, Disney should be very careful. I've seen the competition (BG, SW, USO, USIOA) and they are getting better every day. IOA is my personal favorite, and it opened that way. I can't say the same for AK, and I've read the CA is a similar disappointment. Why can't Disney open a park that is ready to enjoy?

Marty

[Bob O]

mmocken Disney did open a park ready to go from day one, but the bad news its in Japan-Toyoko DinseySea. And i would agree that Universal/IOA are catching up to disney and have surpassed disney in Thrill Rides with Hulk/Spiderman?Dueling Dragons. And i also agree with Busch Gardens Williamsburg i was their last year and its a great park.

[WDW2002]

Originally posted by Bob O
Universal/IOA are catching up to disney and have surpassed disney in Thrill Rides

That is okay, because Disney Parks aren't (suppose to be) about Thrill Rides, they are about a place where parents and kids can enjoy the parks together. A park full of only trill rides would not cut it.

[DawnCt]

Disney and Eisner should take a lesson from Continental Airlines. After Sept. 11, all the airlines faced major losses, requested a received a federal bailout and most responded with decrease service, poor customer service, limited meals and snacks, etc. Most, except for Continental. They made their customer service more consumer friendly, dropped many of the restrictions and Saturday night stay overs, instead of cutting back on meal service, they improved them. As a result, the airline is bouncing back and getting stars for great service. When faced with recesssion, don't curl up in a ball and withdraw, grab opportunity by the hand, suck it up and plan to come out on top!

[Bob O]

No one is asking for a full park with nothing but thrill rides but you should keep up to date with your competition and when Universal has a ride like Spiderman that is advanced in technology and can be ridden by almost the whole family(last time we went my 4yoa daugher rode it) disney should do something in their parks to compete. And the thing to remember is that a lot of teenagers who like thrill rides will be adults and if they are turned off by disney because they find it boring that doesnt bode well for the future. I know my kids watch nick more than the disney channel and if you want their future business you have to keep them engaged with new attractions or rides/shows based on new movies which Universal is doing and disney isnt. The kids of today may not be as forgiving towards disney as their parents are now. Its a tougher entertainment market with alot more choices out there. I know i like wdw more than my kids do who would perfer to spend more time at Universal and identify more with things like MIB/Back to the Future/T2/Twister etc than some of the older wdw attractions which have been their for a long time and are old to them. I just think disney is resting to much on its laurels and not doing enough to impove their product and freshen it up with stuff that the younger generation would like, maybe something based on a popular movie like Armageddon. Rather than disney keeping the dated star tours around and being too cheap to update it with a new movie that was OK by George Lucas but disney was too cheap to implemement as a example.

[raidermatt]

Six Flags passed Disney up in thrill rides decades ago. They have never made an attempt to keep up with the Jones's when it comes to thrill rides. That's not to say they won't take the plunge one day, but if they are going to truly attempt to keep up, it will be through a separate park.

Universal Florida has done an admirable job of trying to blend theming with thrills, but there are simply too many things that a family with sub-40" children cannot do. Yes, they are gaining customers and moving towards being a stand-alone resort, but through all of their gains, WDW has continued to grow. There is some overlap in their markets, but not enough to force Disney to start building monster coasters. Disney does need to continue focusing on E-ticket attractions, but they cannot lose what makes them stand out.

Yes, a new attraction was supposed to go in the 20k Lagoon, but that was before Disney realized how expensive it was going to be just to get the water out. They started draining one of them (DL or WDW) and the walls started crumbling. Where is Pooh? Well, CBJ has only been closed for 5 months. Disney definitely wants Pooh built because they are trying to get traffic in that area of the park that CBJ never delivered. That's why they are putting it there and not in Fantasyland. The only thing I can see de-railing Pooh is the current lawsuit over rights.

I simply don't agree with the notion that Disney believes there is "too much to do" in DL, and therefore also in MK, Epcot, Disney Studios, etc. Am I in complete agreement with all of their decisions and capital spending? No, but Roy, you have canceled a trip to WDW and told people to stay away from the DL Resort, yet you have an annual pass??? You want improvements and changes? Fine, call out for them. But how can you tell people to stay away while you use your annual pass? This makes no sense, unless of course you are not going to renew your pass and will stay away yourself...

Once again, dissenting opinions are fine, but they still need to be honest and balanced if you want them taken seriously.

As for BobO, I agreed with him that dissenting opinions are helpful, but was just pointing out that yours are contradictory, and while still welcome in an open forum, cannot truly be helpful.

Dawn- The cuts that Disney has made mostly surround park hours and the frequency of some shows/entertainment, things like that. By the vast majority of first hand accounts they are still providing 1st rate customer service to their guests. They have not slashed prices, but this is part of keeping the guest experience consistent. Cheaper prices tranlate to decreased profit margins per guest, and if that happens, there are only two choices: Allow profits to fall further, or decrease the services offered PER GUEST.

Cutting hours does not decrease the amount Disney spends per guest, provided there are fewer guests, and of course, we know there are fewer guests right now. My point is not that Continental is wrong, only that what Disney is doing in response to the recession is more in line with Continental than you realize. Disney may have cut hours in response to fewer guests, but this is equivalent to cutting flights, which I'm sure Continental did do, if only until customers return. But we have read accounts of customers walking into Universal Florida at opening and finding many rides closed until 11am or even Noon. Same with restaurants. Disney does not do this. Whatever they will have open for the day is open when the gates open. The vast majority of trip reports talk of nothing other than friendly and pleasant CMs. A few exceptions, sure, but they are few and far between.

[year2late]

I just came back from DL/DCA and indeed early entry was gone. Early entry at DL only opened certain attractions anyway. They provided something nicer anyway...they opened up DL 1 hour earlier for all! DL and DCA also have much more character interaction now. The characters are so abundant that I started thinking it was a conspiracy to get you to by more film and batteries!

The reports of filthy bathrooms, nonworking water fountains, inattentive staff (IMHO) were just false. The restraunts and shops were well staffed and service was polite and prompt.

The usual refurbishment was occuring (I go off season alot)

The attendence at DCA was very light, but it is a work in progress just like DL was and IS. The addition of TOT (knock on wood)will be a plus for that park.

They are now offering AP (hopper) for $199 for the supreme pass (park hopper - no blackouts/free parking) and the associated discounts were awesome! They had a $149 pass that had I think 40 blackout days.

Sure Disney management needs to watch out - times are tough - and it is fun to back seat drive their management style.....but only time will tell whether they chose wisely or not.

But for now....we are still having a kicka$$ time!

[Bob O]

Raidermatt What do you call TOT, is that not a thrill ride??? That is a example of disney at its best with a thrilling ride and great theming. The plunge in the dark would be considered a thrill ride i would think. I havent been on Indy so i cant comment if it would be considered a thrill ride but considering the lawsuits due to alleged injuries it could be considered a thrill ride.
y2l- I dont like the addition of TOT at DL. I dont like the idea of making each parks/resorts the same by cloning rides. I would perfer they put a unique attraction rather than do it on the cheap and just copy something. Both places have too much overlap as far as im concerned and if you just keep copying things their may be less incentive for a frequent wdw vistor to come out to CA.

[Safari Steve]

I dont like the idea of making each parks/resorts the same by cloning rides. I would perfer they put a unique attraction rather than do it on the cheap and just copy something. Both places have too much overlap as far as im concerned and if you just keep copying things their may be less incentive for a frequent wdw vistor to come out to CA.

On The Nose!

This is why I hope we don't ever get Indiana Jones Adventure. I think that we're going to see less cloning in the future (knock on wood), as Al Weiss has said a couple of times in the last few months that he believes the 'Destination Resorts' need to be even more distinctive to keep attracting guests.

[year2late]

Actually if DL got TOT that would be bad. But I think it is DCA which is fine by me

If an E ticket ride is immensely popular and the public is clammoring for it (which apparently they are) I think it is ok. First we slam Disney for mishandling everything and not giving the public what they want.....now they hand us TOT (which many have been begging for) and we say they are not innovative enough.

(For the record I would love to see new innovative rides)

[roymccoy]

But they're doing it again! They decided that they would clone a ride from WDW to help DCA out. I'm not a fan of cloning rides, but with Disney these days anything is better than nothing. Well, here comes that same "cut corners" mentality that ruined DCA in the beginning. ToT is NOT going to have any of the pre-drop rooms that made the tower more of a ride and not just a "dropper". You're going to get in the elevator and drop. When I rode ToT in WDW, I thought it was neat the way Disney was able to put in a thrill ride but still make it look like a Disney ride with the little story and visuals that you got to see before you dropped. Now you're going to just drop. Why can't they get anything right at DCA? If ToT is just another "go up and come down ride" (they've already got the Bomber over in Paradise Pier) I don't see how that's going to help all that much. If they're going to clone rides they should at LEAST clone the whole ride. Cutting corners didn't work with the original DCA. On the contrary, it is what has forced them to make these changes so rapidly. Why would anyone think that it will work now?

Roy

[raidermatt]

How ToT will be built in DCA has not even been announced, and the only info is based on rumors. If we want to crucify them for doing it cheap, let's wait until we at least see the plans or hear an official description.

Before denouncing cloning, let's remember that MK is essentially a clone of DL. Were not talking about one ride, we're talking about the layout and dozens of attractions. So putting a few clones in the parks now is far from a departure from the Disney way.

That said, sure, I'd like to see every ride be a new one, but that's because I am lucky enough to be able to visit both DLResort and WDW on a somewhat regular basis. We have to remember that there a large numbers of people who mainly, or even exclusively visit one site or the other. If Disney has a huge hit at one site, it really does make sense to at least sometimes put it in the other site. The only suggestion I would have would be to theme them differently.

BobO- As a reference, Indy is very similar to Dinosaur. The theme is very different of course, but if you closed your eyes, I'm honestly not sure you would know the difference. Actually, this is an example of what I was talking about above, cloning a ride, but with a different theme.

You're right that in some ways, ToT, Indy, etc are no different than building a roller coaster. But to a lot of people, it is different. Roller coasters are very intimidating visually. The height, speed and motion are just too much for some people, so they have sworn them off. At least some of these people however, will try rides like Dinosaur and Indy, and even a tamer coaster, like the Matterhorn and Space Mountain. So Disney can effectively use some of these rides, while maintaining their family atmosphere. But its still a delicate balance, and that's why I think that Disney needs to maintain its focus and continue making E-ticket attractions that "wow" us, and can still be enjoyed by our beloved wee-folk and weak of stomach spouses...

[year2late]

Thank you Raidermatt! It really is important to know that we are a group of Disneyphiles and not a complete representation of the travelling public. Very few of my friends and coworkers have ventured to WDW(I live on the west coast). The similarities and cloning would be lost on a large portion of the travelling public.

I don't blame Disney for going for a sure thing in troubled times. I hope that when the storm is weathered, they will become a little bit more innovative.

[Thumper1]

I don't know but from what I've seen about "Space" at EPCOT, it looks pretty innovative to me.

Also I still talk to a lot of people and they think that WDW is just like Disneyland. I almost have to laugh, and sometimes do :p when I have to explain that they are way different. I think a lot of people just don't know much about either destination. We're the lucky ones who do know.

[Bob O]

Raidermatt The thing is most people dont close their eyes on rides,escpecially rides that have great theming. I have no problem with disney using the same ride mechanism at parks but the ride experience can be totally different considering what theming is involved and from what ive read is that Dinosaur is a cheap version of Indy which can have different ride experiences at different times considering what version its set up for.
But i dont want to go to different disney parks and see the same old same old. Why do both parks need a muppets 3d movie, bugs 3d movies, star tours attraction etc. I can see some cloning but i think each park experience should be unique and they are moving away from that.

[WDW2002]

without "clone rides" much of the Magic Kingdom would be empty....

[mmocken]

Originally posted by Bob O
mmocken Disney did open a park ready to go from day one, but the bad news its in Japan-Toyoko DinseySea. And i would agree that Universal/IOA are catching up to disney and have surpassed disney in Thrill Rides with Hulk/Spiderman?Dueling Dragons. And i also agree with Busch Gardens Williamsburg i was their last year and its a great park.

BobO,

I'll add BGW to my list to go to. Cedar Point too.

I read about DisneySea, and it sounds like they got that right...why not open that instead or CA?

But the record otherwise is similar. Epcot, EuroDisney, CA, AK all started slow. Disneyland had problems because Walt lacked resources and guidance(he was the first and made mistakes).

As for 'family' entertaining, US/IOA was well enjoyed by my 4YO DD. Barney/Nick Jr/Curious George/Suess/ET was plenty for her.

Disney is the original. They are the best for 'feminine' rides (please don't think this is sexist), and US/IOA are more 'masculine'. And that is by design.

I would say IN MY OPINION, the best ride in Orlando were Star Tours and TOT, BUT they were quickly replaced by MIB and Spiderman. I'm sorry, but RnRC and Test Track are OK, but the bar has moved.

Marty


:jester:

[mmocken]

Originally posted by WDW2002
without "clone rides" much of the Magic Kingdom would be empty....

Lets not forget DL Paris, Tokyo and Hong Kong too!

I guess when you got the right stuff, why not copy it. That was the McDonald motto and look at them now. But therein lies the problem too. Disney is special and quality control is key. McDonalds was considered an innovator, but not anymore.

But DL is still the original and the best...right? I haven't been there yet, but soon!!!


Marty

[princessKT]

As Charlie Brown's teacher says "wa wa wa wa". This guy has no clue, Lord, help him...

[GenieNet]

I agree with you princess KT! Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just go there and realize they're a *guest* and not expect everything to be catered to individual tastes. Truth be told, the reason why Disney is having problems in their theme parks is because of people like roymccoy...those who know the least know it the loudest...they change something because people like you squeak and squeak like a broken wheel, and then when they realize it's not a majority opinion, it costs them twice as much to go back and change the new set of customer dissatisfaction they've generated from the change. They need to just do like lots of other companies in this country right now and provide the best service they can to their brand loyal customers who understand this is a tough time for the travel/entertainment industry and realize you can't please everybody and cut your losses. In the end, cutting roymccoy as a customer is not really a loss...

[roymccoy]

I am the devil. I am the reason for all of Disney's ill's. If they could only get rid of me, all of these problems would just go away. Their problems couldn't have ANYTHING
to do with cut hours, closed rides, closed shows, closed restaurants, etc. No, It's me!

Roy

Thank God we figured that out! You are a genius, Genie! (Genie-ous)

[princessKT]

You're missing the point here Roy. For the 800th time, all you do is complain, complain, complain. Right letters, gripe to someone who can do something about it. WE CAN'T. And seriously, don't go if you hate it so much!!! It's like you go JUST to see what you can complain about next, that's just not normal.

[Tigger&Belle]

I don't normally read the DL posts or post here, so I don't know any of you. However, I did want to comment on Roy cancelling his WDW vacation because of cutbacks that he's read about. I was also very concerned about the WDW cutbacks before I went last month, especially the demise of early entry. I'd been three times in the last year before the January trip (didn't that annual pass save me money...) and can easily compare the parks before and after 9/11 and the cutbacks. Yes, the parks closed earlier than they had one year before and there was no EE. Other than that I didn't notice any other cutbacks. As it turned out the crowds were so non-existent that we were able to do so much more in so much less time. My sister and I (we were there without our kids) rode Tower of Terror 13 times in 2 days! Of course it till takes the same amount of time to see a show, but a person could walk into a theater right before showtime and get a good spot. And to top if all off we ended up staying at an off-site hotel since they didn't have early entry (never done that) and saved lots of money. All in all we had a blast!

We're going to be out west this summer so I wanted to read about DL just in case we end up in Southern CA. Maybe if the attendance numbers are down we should go to DL. Of course we would be there in August when everyone else is probably there.

[Michelle]

Okay, I think it's time to close this. Everyone is free to express an opinion about his/her Disneyland experiences but this has turned into a debate and we have a whole separate board for debaters. Feel free to discuss to start a thread there to discuss the topic. Thanks.