DDP Rumor and affect on DVC Member Perceived Value

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

Rumor Alert. I have no idea if there is any truth to this or not. I read on another website that the DDP for 2008 may no longer include tips. This seems like a big change when you consider an appetizer, entree, dessert, drink and could add a considerable extra cost. If that happened, do you still think the DDP is a good value or will you finally put that full kitchen to good use? Since the restaurants seem to now have limited menu's which some think is a result DDP, then would this change your percieved value of the DDP and eating at the Disney sit down restaurants?

[disneynutz]

Rumor Alert. I have no idea if there is any truth to this or not. I read on another website that the DDP for 2008 may no longer include tips. This seems like a big change when you consider an appetizer, entree, dessert, drink and could add a considerable extra cost. If that happened, do you still think the DDP is a good value or will you finally put that full kitchen to good use? Since the restaurants seem to now have limited menu's which some think is a result DDP, then would this change your percieved value of the DDP and eating at the Disney sit down restaurants?


The rumor was discussed hear a couple of weeks ago
Try doing a search on DDP. There was also a discussion on the DIS pod cast.

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

The rumor was discussed hear a couple of weeks ago
Try doing a search on DDP. There was also a discussion on the DIS pod cast.

That's what I get for not logging in often enough. I'll do the search.

[Maistre Gracey]

...or will you finally put that full kitchen to good use?
Bite your tongue!! :scared1:

I just can't think of any reason to actually use the kitchen..

MG

[disneynutz]

That's what I get for not logging in often enough. I'll do the search.

That's one thing about the DIS. It's a very active board and things change daily. :disrocks:

[disneynutz]

Bite your tongue!! :scared1:

I just can't think of any reason to actually use the kitchen..

MG

Where do you keep the beer? :woohoo:

[rogerram]

I sent an email to DVC about this and was told they do not deal in rumors ,although they did not say it wasn't true. I told them that if the tips had to be paid on top of the regular daily cost , that it was not worth it. I hope enough people will let them know how you feel. Maybe it will help influence the decision. I also told them that at times, they offer free dining and now we would be expected to pay more. I told them that it won't happen here. I will eat elsewhere, that is less expensive. There will be 3 of us and I figure the tip on all the sitdown meals will be in the $25- $33 range everyday. Not worth it.

[Maistre Gracey]

Where do you keep the beer? :woohoo:
I move the fridge to the bedroom so the beer is close at hand when I wake up. :teeth:

Seriously though, I only use the fridge, microwave, and the coffeemaker. :smokin:

MG

[G8RFAN]

I move the fridge to the bedroom so the beer is close at hand when I wake up. :teeth:

Seriously though, I only use the fridge, microwave, and the coffeemaker. :smokin:

MG
I gotta toast my morning bagel. :coffee: Otherwise I don't think I've ever used the stove/oven. I did grill once.......

[DebbieB]

It's all rumor so you can't really say until the details are announced. If the price is the same, that would be a net effect of an 18% increase. On the other hand, if they reduce the price 10%, then it would not be so bad.

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

You're right, we have to wait to see the details. 18% is pretty significant. DDE is looking better particularly if using the full kitchen is never an option for some!

[tjkraz]

Well, since DVC units with kitchens pre-date the DDP by about 13 years, I don't know about them "finally" getting some use. ;)

This is a completely subjective comment but since the DDP was introduced, it seems like there are more and more people saying "ugh, too much food...never again!" I have no data to back that up so these people could still be firmly in the minority.

On the variety issue, while I think that restaurants have streamlined their offerings, there is still an excellent amount of variety to be found. It's just that you now have to go to two separate restaurants to find what you could previously get at one. :)

DDE has always been the way to go for our family, so changes to DDP won't impact us at all. Assuming that Disney needs to cut costs somehow, I've always wondered why they didn't change the TS meals to an appetizer OR a dessert. I mean, how many of us comfortably consume that much food in a typical meal, much less once per day for 6 or 8 days straight?!?! If you've got a party of 4 dining, you can still get 2 appetizers and 2 desserts to share, and probably a lot less food waste.

[Chuck S]

I sent an email to DVC about this and was told they do not deal in rumors ,although they did not say it wasn't true. I told them that if the tips had to be paid on top of the regular daily cost , that it was not worth it. I hope enough people will let them know how you feel. Maybe it will help influence the decision. I also told them that at times, they offer free dining and now we would be expected to pay more. I told them that it won't happen here. I will eat elsewhere, that is less expensive. There will be 3 of us and I figure the tip on all the sitdown meals will be in the $25- $33 range everyday. Not worth it.


Remember that DVC does not own, nor control, the DDP. It is operated by WDW Travel as part of their packages. DVC had to negotiate for the rights to allow DVC Members to be able to use it at all...it says a lot for DVC that they were able to attain it for members at the same price as the CRO packages (sans the Free Dining packages).

DVC may be allowed to continue offering the DDP, but it will be under WDW Travel's terms...if WDW Travel drops the gratuities from their packages, DVC will not be able to include the gratutities.

[Boston5602]

Well, since DVC units with kitchens pre-date the DDP by about 13 years, I don't know about them "finally" getting some use. ;)

This is a completely subjective comment but since the DDP was introduced, it seems like there are more and more people saying "ugh, too much food...never again!" I have no data to back that up so these people could still be firmly in the minority.

On the variety issue, while I think that restaurants have streamlined their offerings, there is still an excellent amount of variety to be found. It's just that you now have to go to two separate restaurants to find what you could previously get at one. :)

DDE has always been the way to go for our family, so changes to DDP won't impact us at all. Assuming that Disney needs to cut costs somehow, I've always wondered why they didn't change the TS meals to an appetizer OR a dessert. I mean, how many of us comfortably consume that much food in a typical meal, much less once per day for 6 or 8 days straight?!?! If you've got a party of 4 dining, you can still get 2 appetizers and 2 desserts to share, and probably a lot less food waste.



Thats an idea that actually makes sense!

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

Well, since DVC units with kitchens pre-date the DDP by about 13 years, I don't know about them "finally" getting some use. ;)



People use the full kitchens? I thought they were for show. :lmao:

[keishashadow]

This rumour was out before our trip end of June.

Discussed it w/a chatty server over dinner...he indicated that his supervisor discussed it with staff, informally & preliminarily. They do have a union, weak - yet still a union to protect their interests to their best ability. He mentioned that there are at least 5 applicants for every server job; and they have to go with the flow.:sad2: IMO, @ the happiest place on earth ALL employees should receive a living wage for a fair day's work. Yes, we are stockholders and union they aren't mutually exclusive.

Apparently, if the entire 18% tip is eliminated; the worry was that guests would tip much less, if not at all; if a mandatory gratuity policy isn't implemented.

Last he heard, they were going to try it with just a suggested tip, if the CMs don't receive what he termed ""fair tips, they would step in and rework things.

[tjkraz]

He mentioned that there are at least 5 applicants for every server job; and they have to go with the flow.:sad2: IMO, @ the happiest place on earth ALL employees should receive a living wage for a fair day's work.

I really hope this doesn't morph into a union vs. non-union thread (please!), but if the info given to you is correct (5 applicants for each job), I think there's a very good reason for it.

Even at a TS restaurant on the low end, a family of 4 is going to eat at least $100 worth of food. That's appetizers, entrees, desserts and beverages for everyone. The server is getting an automatic 18% on that meal. Now figure how long the server is giving you attention from taking drink orders to delivery of the bill (an hour...give or take), and how many tables the server is handling at once (I'd say 2-4).

I don't know if tips are being shared with others in the restaurant but even if they are, it seems to me that the servers are not exactly on the low end of the pay scale at WDW.

I don't blame them one bit for being worried about this change--seems like a boneheaded move to me. But if we assume they are receiving appropriate gratuities, I think they are certainly getting a living wage for their efforts.

Given that they employ about 60,000 people and the wages aren't great for many positions, Disney is always on the verge of a labor shortage. No mystery that there would be people lined up for food service jobs given the prospective compensation involved.

[Muushka]

The DDP is questionable for us now, really not worth it. If they have us pay the tip, that would be a no-brainer, no DDP for us!

[keishashadow]

I really hope this doesn't morph into a union vs. non-union thread (please!), but if the info given to you is correct (5 applicants for each job), I think there's a very good reason for it.

Even at a TS restaurant on the low end, a family of 4 is going to eat at least $100 worth of food. That's appetizers, entrees, desserts and beverages for everyone. The server is getting an automatic 18% on that meal. Now figure how long the server is giving you attention from taking drink orders to delivery of the bill (an hour...give or take), and how many tables the server is handling at once (I'd say 2-4).

I don't know if tips are being shared with others in the restaurant but even if they are, it seems to me that the servers are not exactly on the low end of the pay scale at WDW.

I don't blame them one bit for being worried about this change--seems like a boneheaded move to me. But if we assume they are receiving appropriate gratuities, I think they are certainly getting a living wage for their efforts.

Given that they employ about 60,000 people and the wages aren't great for many positions, Disney is always on the verge of a labor shortage. No mystery that there would be people lined up for food service jobs given the prospective compensation involved.

From what i garnered from our conversation, the server jobs at TS sites are very desireable, ergo the 5 others waiting in line...or perhaps it's just what they're told when they complain.:rolleyes1

No bashing here, just hope the servers don't come out short due to this change. I've never waited tables, have moonlighted as a bartender...it's not as easy as it looks.

Not sure what their hourly pay rate is, in my neck of the woods, servers are lucky to earn $3 hour; depend on tips to survive. Perhaps someone can chime in here who is aware of the salary structure for CM waitstaff.

[Island Mouse]

I actually don't like when tips are included when I go to a restaurant because in a lot of ways, the service quality tends to go down a bit. It can cause servers to be more complacent if their tips are guaranteed. I would much rather tip the server individually based on the quality of the service and experience I received. Mediocre or poor service doesn't deserve an 18% gratuity. Just my .02 on including tips in general. I've never used the DDP so I can't say if the service quality is any different compared to when I am paying cash for each meal.

[jjohnson]

The other rumour is it will be appetizer, dessert or alcoholic drink but it hasn't been discussed much on the boards.

[gracelrm]

I have no idea of how much a TS wait staff is paid; however on our last trip in June a waiter at LeCellier told us he had been there 18 years. One would assume he is paid fairly good wages/tips to have stayed waiting tables that long. He, by the way, was an excellent waiter and we'll try to ask for him the next time we eat there!

[DebbieB]

From what i garnered from our conversation, the server jobs at TS sites are very desireable, ergo the 5 others waiting in line...or perhaps it's just what they're told when they complain.:rolleyes1

No bashing here, just hope the servers don't come out short due to this change. I've never waited tables, have moonlighted as a bartender...it's not as easy as it looks.

Not sure what their hourly pay rate is, in my neck of the woods, servers are lucky to earn $3 hour; depend on tips to survive. Perhaps someone can chime in here who is aware of the salary structure for CM waitstaff.

I've heard wait staff is a very in demand job at WDW because the tips are very lucrative. Considering the menu prices are twice what you would see elsewhere for something comparable, their tips have to be very good. Consider a character dinner is now approaching $30 for adults. Even a 15% tip would give them $18 for 4 adults (especially considering 10 or over is considered an adult), 18% would be over $20. Times how many tables they have. I don't begrudge them their tips, I just don't believe the "poor cm's only make minimum wage so let's tip them extra (beyond 18% included in DDP)". They are doing very well.

[patsal]

FWIW, years ago when DD was 5 (she's 12 now) we had dinner at 'Ohana. It was early and the waiter had time to spend. He talked with us extensively and asked about where we lived, what we did for a living, etc. When I told him I was a teacher he said he was too, but working at WDW paid at least triple what he made as a teacher. I called him on it and said that seemed really high--he insisted explained the table turnover and that between tips and regular salary he was then making well into the $80's. He said some people were cheap with the tips but others were very generous and that made up for it by averaging. Now this was well before the DDP and would imagine that with DDP and restaurants always very full that 18% adds up fast--think CG where I always tip 25%--what can I say I've always had great service. With DDP my server gets about a $70 tip when all four of us dine together--I bring that up with an additional $30+ and that is a much beter wage than I make. I do not begrudge anyone a high salary, but I would say that you picked the career so it can't be that bad if you are still doing it after all these years and if the ratio between positions and availability is 5 to 1 it can't be that bad.
Back to the OP--at first I thought I would mind paying the tip, then I thought maybe it wouldn't be so bad--I already add to the tip to bring it up, we already only order what we want and will eat (not maxing the plan) so maybe there will be other modifications to feign us into perceived value.

[keishashadow]

I've heard wait staff is a very in demand job at WDW because the tips are very lucrative. Considering the menu prices are twice what you would see elsewhere for something comparable, their tips have to be very good. Consider a character dinner is now approaching $30 for adults. Even a 15% tip would give them $18 for 4 adults (especially considering 10 or over is considered an adult), 18% would be over $20. Times how many tables they have. I don't begrudge them their tips, I just don't believe the "poor cm's only make minimum wage so let's tip them extra (beyond 18% included in DDP)". They are doing very well.

Unless we receive special attention, rarely have i tipped above & over the 18% @ WDW on the DP, think it's generous (especially at the buffet service you reference); and factoring for both inflated food costs and more-than-often-not, perfunctory service.

I am certainly not a fan of the guaranteed 18% tip system on the DP, think overall service has declined because of it (had an issue when i paid OOP @ H&V during recent trip - elaborated upon in my TR posted on that thread).

Unfortunately, i do think if a min. gratuity is eliminated entirely, there will be a large contingent of already maxed out guests who won't tip fairly, even if they do receive good service. Assume it would lead to a mass exodus of veteran CMs moving on to greener pastures. :confused3

If it were my call, in order to guarantee a min. tip (have been told there is a certain % formula they must report to IRS whether they receive it or not:confused: ); there should be a 10% minimum gratuity built into the plan. Effectively, Disney would still garner an 8% rate hike in the plan.

Probably the only way to gurantee both a base wage & encouragement for lackadasial servers to raise the bar of service, in order to earn a larger, more-appreciative tip.

[goofy4tink]

Since DVC offered us the option of getting the DDP, I have had to sit and figure which is going to be better for my family...DDP or DDE. It has usually come out pretty close, but with the tip being already included in the DDP, we have gone with that for the past few trips. I actually prefer a system that allows me to decide how much I want to tip. I seldom tip below 15%, and that is for mediocre service. It's usually closer to 20%. In fact, when I use the DDE card, I tip whatever the discount was, as long as I got decent service.

I have to say that I have seen the exact same servers at some of the restaurants over many different visits...Crystal Palace, Chef Mickeys, Prime Time to name some. I have to believe that those servers are making a pretty decent living if they have been there for years.

So, if DDP does away with the gratuity, but leaves the price as it is now, I have to think that we'll be using our DDE card for the most part....as well as a bit more 'bagal toasting' rather than restaurant breakfasts!!! No way am I going to be doing actual cooking....dear heaven..it's vacation people. How is it a vacation for me if I have to cook!!!!

[pilferk]

I just can't think of any reason to actually use the kitchen..

MG

Midnight snacks...storing the leftovers from all the DDP (or non-DDP) food for midnight snacks, storing the acompaniments for midnight snacks...oh, and breakfast.

:)

[pilferk]

DDE has always been the way to go for our family, so changes to DDP won't impact us at all. Assuming that Disney needs to cut costs somehow, I've always wondered why they didn't change the TS meals to an appetizer OR a dessert. I mean, how many of us comfortably consume that much food in a typical meal, much less once per day for 6 or 8 days straight?!?! If you've got a party of 4 dining, you can still get 2 appetizers and 2 desserts to share, and probably a lot less food waste.

I agree...it's a LOT of food. We'd likely (if paying OOP) do 1 app for the table (5 of us), and 1 (or 2, MAX) desserts for the whole table. One for each person would be WAY too much for us.

The DDP makes good sense to us because we tend, right now, to do LOTS of buffets (character and otherwise) for our TS choices. It's just easier with the kids, because they don't have to wait (though, to be fair, they're pretty good about waiting at "regular" TS places) and we can pace ourselves a bit slower (my kids will eat pretty much anything, but they eat it SLOWLY).

I see that changing once the kids get a bit older...and we'll probably go the DDE route at that point. If the eliminate the tip...we may go that route THIS next trip...we'll have to wait and see.

[Inkmahm]

Given that they employ about 60,000 people and the wages aren't great for many positions, Disney is always on the verge of a labor shortage. No mystery that there would be people lined up for food service jobs given the prospective compensation involved.

Exactly. The waitstaff at the TS restaurants at Disney live in utopia. Where else can you work where there is never a slow night and most likely a line of people waiting to be seated every night of the year? They do work hard, no doubt about it. Being so busy means they rarely get a break, either. BUT, I believe they get paid very well for what they do. That 5 people waiting for each job makes sense to me.

I love the DDE card because it makes tipping easy. Whatever the 20% discount is, that's what I add as the tip for the server.

[disneynutz]

It has been reported by CMs that servers don't get 18% of the DDP total bill. They get their tip money based upon some Disney formula for Disney owned restaurants and even less at non Disney owned locations. That's why the Union fought to remove the included tip from the DDP starting next year. There may be a waiting list of CMs wanting to be servers but we noticed that many of the servers are in the collage internship program. By the time their year is up they have received some collage credits and experience but not a lot of money. By the time they pay for room and board and taxes, they report that they have made good money but not great money. Disney isn't one of those, pay your tip money under the table type of businesses. Every penny is accounted for and reported to the IRS.

[pilferk]

It has been reported by CMs that servers don't get 18% of the DDP total bill. They get their tip money based upon some Disney formula for Disney owned restaurants and even less at non Disney owned locations. That's why the Union fought to remove the included tip from the DDP starting next year. There may be a waiting list of CMs wanting to be servers but we noticed that many of the servers are in the collage internship program. By the time their year is up they have received some collage credits and experience but not a lot of money. By the time they pay for room and board and taxes, they report that they have made good money but not great money. Disney isn't one of those, pay your tip money under the table type of businesses. Every penny is accounted for and reported to the IRS.

From what I've heard, it was Disney (NOT the union) who fought to remove the tip from the DDP in the contract language. The concession from Disney was, in fact, adding an automatic gratuity to any check using the DDE, and to lower the "automatic" tip for large parties from parties of 8 to parties of 6.

I've seen varying reports from both CM's and "insiders" here on the disboards. The one most often seen is that the servers at Disney owned resorts get 18% on the cost from Disney' DDP budget, and the difference between that, and the 18% on the total bill, from the budget of the restaurant. In places NOT owned by Disney, they ONLY get the 18% on cost...the restaurant doesn't make up the difference.

Not sure if that's true, or not, but it's the account I've read most often.

[Inkmahm]

It has been reported by CMs that servers don't get 18% of the DDP total bill. They get their tip money based upon some Disney formula for Disney owned restaurants and even less at non Disney owned locations. That's why the Union fought to remove the included tip from the DDP starting next year. There may be a waiting list of CMs wanting to be servers but we noticed that many of the servers are in the collage internship program. By the time their year is up they have received some collage credits and experience but not a lot of money. By the time they pay for room and board and taxes, they report that they have made good money but not great money. Disney isn't one of those, pay your tip money under the table type of businesses. Every penny is accounted for and reported to the IRS.
I would hope that every penny IS accounted for and reported.

At the TS restaurants, I don't remember seeing college interns. I've seen the same waiters at Cali Grill, Brown Derby, etc. for years. Still, anyway you look at it, I'm saying they are making great money. The bill for the two of us for dinner is usually about $120 or so. That's a $24 from me. I figure I'm not the only table the waiter has, either. $40 per hour ($80k per year) I would think is easily doable for tips at the better TS restaurants. Plus whatever Disney actually pays them for wages.

[JimMIA]

It has been reported by CMs that servers don't get 18% of the DDP total bill. They get their tip money based upon some Disney formula for Disney owned restaurants and even less at non Disney owned locations.The most reliable information I have seen is that the servers at Disney-owned restaurants DO get the full 18%. Apparently DDP pays all of the restaurants 18% of what they consider the TS meal to be worth within the overall $38.99 daily cost of DDP. I've heard that's about $25, so they would pay the restaurant about $4.50. The Disney-owned restaurants make up the difference between 18% of the menu price and whatever they receive from DDP.

Some of the non-Disney restaurants do NOT make up the difference. I have heard Raglan Road is one where the servers don't get the full tip, and I'm sure there are others.

Of course, when you are talking about tip income, it's worth remembering that the server doesn't get anywhere near all of that 18%. The bussers get some, bartenders get 10% of all bar orders, the hosts/hostesses get some...quite a bit comes out of that 18%, and that is true in any restaurant.That's why the Union fought to remove the included tip from the DDP starting next year.The union was not in favor of removing the tip. In fact, the original contract was rejected by the union. It was only approved when Disney sweetened the pot in other areas.

[JimMIA]

...then would this change your percieved value of the DDP and eating at the Disney sit down restaurants?Getting back to OP's original question, yes, removal of the gratuity from DDP would reduce the value of DDP to me. Not just perceived value, real value. If that happens, every family will have to evaluate DDP based on their own needs -- it may still be a great plan for some families, and it may be worth nothing to others.

We fall into the "DDP would be worthless to us" category, because with our family composition and eating habits at WDW, we only save a little money with DDP as it is. We use it as much for convenience as we do for saving money. Our response would be to eat all but a few meals offsite. There are a number of really excellent restaurants offsite, so I'm sure we'll find food. :rolleyes1 We'd probably just do one character meal each trip, and that would be it.

Taking out the gratuity would also eliminate the most important perk my family enjoys as DVC owners. (We're Florida residents, so the AP discount means nada to us.) We didn't buy DVC for the perks (neither the AP discount nor DDP were around when we bought), so we'd still be happy, but it would be a small loss to us.

[hansel1]

Getting back to whether the DDP is right for you. Don't forget that the DDP pays for the taxes of each meal. That's no small amount for some restaurant bills.

Taxes! Tips! Value! Why, oh, why did we all take the old DDP for granted?

In my greatest STING impersonation: "I WANT MY D...D...P...!"

That was for those of you old enough to remember the early 80s.

[La2kw]

We are at OKW right now and we have definitely put our kitchen to use this year. Between meals in, CS lunches, and driving offsite to eat at non-Disney restaurants, we have saved a ton of money and eaten well (and healthier, too). The few Disney meals we have endured this year have been marked by poor service, smaller portions, boring menus, overcrowded restaurants, and high prices. We don't do DDP because in all our many trips to WDW, we have never spent as much money on food as the DDP would have cost us. This year we have spent less money on dining at Disney restaurants than we ever have in the past. We have eaten mostly counter service lunches in the parks, and still haven't had a burger yet. We have had pizza, a variety of salads, shwarma, teriyaki, sushi, tuna sandwiches, roast chicken, clam chowder, veggie wraps, cuban sandwiches, fish & chips, quiche, roast pork loin, chili, tacos, and bratwurst as well as other items. It's been great because the meals we have eaten offsite have been much better quality and the service has been excellent.

[BEACHCLUBVILLAS]

Getting back to whether the DDP is right for you. Don't forget that the DDP pays for the taxes of each meal. That's no small amount for some restaurant bills.

Taxes! Tips! Value! Why, oh, why did we all take the old DDP for granted?

In my greatest STING impersonation: "I WANT MY D...D...P...!"

That was for those of you old enough to remember the early 80s.

Are they taking taxes out too????

For us, we are using the DDP for our trip in October. If they take the tips out, it's no longer a good deal to us. If they also take taxes out, then in my opinion it's a downright bad deal. It becomes a situation where the buyer prepays full price for food that is more than we'd normally eat anyway. More than likely, Disney comes out way ahead and the product is no longer valuable to me. I'd rather buy what I use on or off site or heaven forbid actually use that full kitchen. Wait, I"ll have to rent a car to eat off site or grocery shop. Will that offset any savings on meals? Yes. But, now I can think about all that extra time I found not waiting for the bus and I have the freedom to roam off site.

[jvaleri1]

If you bought your DVC through Disney and look at the history under news, the DDP was $36.99 last year ('06) and went up just a dollar in '07. I'm hoping for just a modest increase since we're going in January with 6 people.

[DebbieB]

If you bought your DVC through Disney and look at the history under news, the DDP was $36.99 last year ('06) and went up just a dollar in '07. I'm hoping for just a modest increase since we're going in January with 6 people.

But if they take out tips, leaving it the same price is equivalent to an 18% increase since the tips will have to come out of your pocket when you are here.

[JimMIA]

There are a number of threads going on about this topic on various boards, but if you look over on the DDP board, you will see that UK tour operators are already selling 2008 DDP which includes NEITHER appetizers nor gratuity.

There has obviously been no official announcement from Disney about US offerings of DDP, but this certainly does not look promising.

[CarolA]

Having said I would NEVER do DDP again. I did it for two days last week when I met friends who were on the plan.

For me, it appears two days is plenty. (I wound up using both snack credits on bottled water) My CS meals came with desert. I threw all but one bite of one of them away (after bite one I decided the "calories" weren't worth the cost) However, at the second dinner at Wolfgang Puck's I did eat too much and was miserable all night....

I MIGHT do it for my two night trip in December since the CP meal alone probably makes it worthwhile (our reservations are for LeCellier) I don't think I can deal with it for more then about two days....

IMHO it makes a LOT more sense to give appetizer or desert (not both) I also think they will have to make the tip mandatory or the servers will be in trouble. I have read posts on the DIS where posters don't tip because "this vacation is already costing me too much" and "I won't ever see that server again so I don't care" (One poster once posted that if she tipped she couldn't afford to eat at the resturant and then seemed amazed that the response was that she should NOT eat at the resturant!)

[Mississippian]

Rumor Alert. I have no idea if there is any truth to this or not. I read on another website that the DDP for 2008 may no longer include tips. This seems like a big change when you consider an appetizer, entree, dessert, drink and could add a considerable extra cost. If that happened, do you still think the DDP is a good value or will you finally put that full kitchen to good use? Since the restaurants seem to now have limited menu's which some think is a result DDP, then would this change your percieved value of the DDP and eating at the Disney sit down restaurants?

Many people believe that the DDP has lowered the quality of food offered at Disney restaurants. For example, expensive items have been removed from menus because the restaurants can't afford to serve them under the plan.

Personally I wish Disney would do away with the DDP. The Disney Dining Experience, with the 20 percent discount, offers a great value without totally distorting the law of menu supply and demand. Restaurants can still serve the expensive items because they receive more more for them, they just have to give a little bit of a discount.

Just my opinion....

[Inkmahm]

Many people believe that the DDP has lowered the quality of food offered at Disney restaurants. For example, expensive items have been removed from menus because the restaurants can't afford to serve them under the plan.

Personally I wish Disney would do away with the DDP. The Disney Dining Experience, with the 20 percent discount, offers a great value without totally distorting the law of menu supply and demand. Restaurants can still serve the expensive items because they receive more more for them, they just have to give a little bit of a discount.

Just my opinion....An opnion with which I agree.

Also, no DDP might make it easier to get ADRs again since all those families eating at the TS restaurants we like to eat at would go back to not spending the money to eat there. (Sounds selfish, I know.)

[Mississippian]

An opnion with which I agree.

Also, no DDP might make it easier to get ADRs again since all those families eating at the TS restaurants we like to eat at would go back to not spending the money to eat there. (Sounds selfish, I know.)

You are right. But that doesn't have to mean less profit for Disney. The DDP seems to be based on the notion of selling lots more food at less profit. I'd rather pay a little higher price and be able to get in the restaurant, not have it packed to the gills, have better service and a full menu.

[TiggerFreak]

People use the full kitchens? I thought they were for show. :lmao:

As a wise long time poster once said "The Stove Decoration is just like the Vacum Decoration, it's nice to look at!"

[Debby7]

FYI : When my daughter was in the college intern program 2 yrs ago, she told us that interns were not allowed to be put in tipped positions at the restaurants. They could be a host ot hostess or work counter service, but they could not wait tables. However at the World showcase restaurants the foreign interns do wait tables to add to the atmosphere, that is a different program.

[dclfun]

If anyone remembers the old "Candlelight Processional Package" which also included prepaid components, it has changed considerably over the years. I much preferred it when it included the tax, tip, and non-alcoholic beverage...all of which have been removed and are now separate charges. Even better was the year we got a lanyard and pin, plus all of the above included. I could give my teens the CPPackage and know they didn't have to handle any money and could just go and enjoy the meal. ( I sang in the CP so wasn't accompanying them to the dinner). I'd rather pay more for the package, either the CP Package or the DDP and have everything included. I know I'm probably in the minority here as I do agree that gratuities should be based on service received vs. just prepaid, but I like the simplicity of the current plan in my budget even if it may sometimes not be the best percieved value or way to handle the tips. I'd much rather have the option of either appy, dessert, or non-alc beverage than to take out the taxes, tips, and perhaps all of the above. All of the proposed rumored changes, to me, has a "feel" to it of having roped us in and then changing the plan to make more money by nickel and diming the guest...and it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth ( pun intended). Just IMHO.---Kathy

[Muushka]

Really, no beverage is included this year? OY

Hey, I miss the 15% on purchases discount too!

This year will probably be our last for this package because we are able to put it on the DDP. After this year even that will change. Just too expensive. But we have great memories of all the wonderful performances we have seen throughout the years.

[disneynutz]

There are a number of threads going on about this topic on various boards, but if you look over on the DDP board, you will see that UK tour operators are already selling 2008 DDP which includes NEITHER appetizers nor gratuity.

There has obviously been no official announcement from Disney about US offerings of DDP, but this certainly does not look promising.

I looked up our DDP receipts for last May. If the appetizer and tip are removed the the DDP our cost would increase by $22.00 per adult, per day for the same food. Not a good value anymore. Oh well, like other Disney decisions, fun while it lasted. :sad2:

[lenshanem]

I wonder how it will work for us that have DDP booked for the end of December, but our stay goes into 2008? Currently I have DDP booked, but will most likely cancel it if the price doesn't drop, but now doesn't include appetizers or tip.

Regardless, it was our last time using DDP as my oldest will be turning 10 next year and I'm not gonna pay adult DDP prices for her to eat two bites...

[pilferk]

I looked up our DDP receipts for last May. If the appetizer and tip are removed the the DDP our cost would increase by $22.00 per adult, per day for the same food. Not a good value anymore. Oh well, like other Disney decisions, fun while it lasted. :sad2:

We've been holding off on deciding whether to do DDP or DDE (well, that and the 2008 prices aren't out yet, so we can't really "do" anything, anyway).

IF both the app and tip are removed (and it's looking like that might be the case), I'll have to rework the numbers but I THINK the DDE will turn out to be the better overall value. If it's not, I think it'll be a squeaker.

[3DisneyKids]

Bite your tongue!! :scared1:

I just can't think of any reason to actually use the kitchen..

MG

MG...I need a place to slice my limes for cocktail hour! :thumbsup2

[drakethib]

Maybe I am the oddball but I like the DDP and think it is a good thing for those who come to WDW.

With that being said, if they yank the tip & tax out of it, we will not be using it again.

[patsal]

If the new rumored changes are as drastic as they appear--no tip, no tax and no appetizer then why would they give it away free again this year? That's the only thing I can't figure out. The only way I can make sense out of it is get people hooked on it, they buy it again without reading the changes and after paying they realize that they are not happy with it after htey are alredy there and paid in full--but who would want to deal with all that negative mail? It was good while it lasted I guess:confused3

[fishermouse]

This rumour was out before our trip end of June.

Discussed it w/a chatty server over dinner...he indicated that his supervisor discussed it with staff, informally & preliminarily. They do have a union, weak - yet still a union to protect their interests to their best ability. He mentioned that there are at least 5 applicants for every server job; and they have to go with the flow.:sad2: IMO, @ the happiest place on earth ALL employees should receive a living wage for a fair day's work. Yes, we are stockholders and union they aren't mutually exclusive.

Apparently, if the entire 18% tip is eliminated; the worry was that guests would tip much less, if not at all; if a mandatory gratuity policy isn't implemented.

Last he heard, they were going to try it with just a suggested tip, if the CMs don't receive what he termed ""fair tips, they would step in and rework things.

IMO most people, myself included, tip more than 18% I usually give 20% or more. But I do not like when a tip is included, at that point it is no longer a tip but a fee. I know a lot of places do this but IMO it serves no one the server will get 18% wether the service is good or bad and the customer may be forced to tip some one that does not desrve it. I rarely have service bad enough that I don't give atleast 20% but I want the option. I agree that if they remove the tip they should reduce the cost.
"mandatory gratuity" is this like military inteligence :rotfl:

[disneynutz]

If the new rumored changes are as drastic as they appear--no tip, no tax and no appetizer then why would they give it away free again this year? That's the only thing I can't figure out. The only way I can make sense out of it is get people hooked on it, they buy it again without reading the changes and after paying they realize that they are not happy with it after htey are alredy there and paid in full--but who would want to deal with all that negative mail? It was good while it lasted I guess:confused3

It's the psychology of selling. Free DDP? Free DME? What about DVC? It's the idea that we buy into. We are getting something special or a great deal. Better yet, we're getting something that other people aren't getting. DDP isn't free, your are paying rack rate for your room. DME isn't free, room prices and ticket prices were raised to cover the cost. In addition Disney makes a ton more money if they can keep you on property for your entire stay. DVC does offer some savings but you really have to stay flexible. If you don't care where or when you vacation DVC is a great deal.
Once Disney gets you happy with a sale they slowly chip away at it to turn additional profit. Last I looked their stock was up 17%. Some people will catch on, some won't. As soon as enough people stop participating in the sale, they will come up with a different sale or BBD. Disney isn't alone it this philosophy, it's all around us everyday. :thumbsup2

[Chuck S]

It's the psychology of selling. Free DDP? Free DME? What about DVC? It's the idea that we buy into. We are getting something special or a great deal. Better yet, we're getting something that other people aren't getting. DDP isn't free, your are paying rack rate for your room. DME isn't free, room prices and ticket prices were raised to cover the cost. In addition Disney makes a ton more money if they can keep you on property for your entire stay. DVC does offer some savings but you really have to stay flexible. If you don't care where or when you vacation DVC is a great deal.
Once Disney gets you happy with a sale they slowly chip away at it to turn additional profit. Last I looked their stock was up 17%. Some people will catch on, some won't. As soon as enough people stop participating in the sale, they will come up with a different sale or BBD. Disney isn't alone it this philosophy, it's all around us everyday. :thumbsup2


Sort of like getting 11oz to 13oz of coffee in a 1 pound can, saying you'll use less because it is a richer roast. I use the same number of scoops as I always did. :sad2:

[disneynutz]

Sort of like getting 11oz to 13oz of coffee in a 1 pound can, saying you'll use less because it is a richer roast. I use the same number of scoops as I always did. :sad2:

Same number of scoops but much richer. :lmao:

For the coffee company that is. :thumbsup2

[mello]

IMO most people, myself included, tip more than 18% I usually give 20% or more. But I do not like when a tip is included, at that point it is no longer a tip but a fee. I know a lot of places do this but IMO it serves no one the server will get 18% wether the service is good or bad and the customer may be forced to tip some one that does not desrve it. I rarely have service bad enough that I don't give atleast 20% but I want the option. I agree that if they remove the tip they should reduce the cost.
"mandatory gratuity" is this like military inteligence :rotfl:

Well said.

[DBorges]

:teacher: Why guess at what NO ONE has the FACTS too.:rotfl2:

I am confused as too all of you get your facts:confused3

Is there some disney fairy telling you this:wizard:

Since everyone else has guessed at what is going to happen here is Mine:dance3:

NOTHING WILL CHANGE BUT THE PRICE !!!!!!!:cheer2:

It will go from 37.99 to 39.99 :rolleyes1

So unless your setting the price or you are a Disney fairy do not guess:rotfl:

This is todays lesson in rumor:teacher:

[JimMIA]

Just FYI -- in case some are wondering what the heck we are discussing -- this is a direct quote from a letter received by UK guests who are customers of Virgin Holidays -- one of the largest travel agents in the UK. The letter is from Virgin, but it is obvious that the info came from Disney.

"Since making your reservation we have been notified by resort that for 2008 departures, the Disney Dining Plan package has changed. The new dining plan no longer has a starter as part of the table service meal, and gratuities are no longer included in the price. All other aspects of the dining plan remain unchanged".

Also, for those wondering about the taxes -- I don't think they can sell a plan like this without charging tax on it, so I'm sure the tax (only 6.5%, so not a biggie anyway) will stay.

[Chuck S]

Also, for those wondering about the taxes -- I don't think they can sell a plan like this without charging tax on it, so I'm sure the tax (only 6.5%, so not a biggie anyway) will stay.

That would depend entirely upon Florida Sales Tax regulations, and perhaps if it is classified as "pre-payment" or a "redemption certificate." For instance, gift certificates, in TX, are not charged sales tax when you purchase them...so a $100 gift certicate costs $100, and nothing tangible has of yet changed hands. However, if you purchase $50 worth of merchandise, tax is applied then, so $50 + tax is deducted from that $100 balance.

I would assume, however, that Disney considers it a pre-payment for goods...thus tax is either "included" in the overall price...so it is really $35.68 + tax for a total of $37.99 per night per adult, or they will clarify that it is $37.99 + tax per night, thus becoming a 6.5% increase in price for next year.

[CarolA]

Based on my knowledge of Florida Sales Tax... (which is a little rusty) this would probably be a pre-pay and Florida tax would be required to be charged at the time of sale. Tax is charged in Florida based on payment not value so even though the meal might be worth $100 you only paid around $35. Tax is on the payment. Now... Disney could charge $38.99 PLUS tax on that instead of the current price which I think includes tax?

Tax is not paid on the tip so the change there makes no difference in the amount of tax collected.

[DBorges]

Just FYI -- in case some are wondering what the heck we are discussing -- this is a direct quote from a letter received by UK guests who are customers of Virgin Holidays -- one of the largest travel agents in the UK. The letter is from Virgin, but it is obvious that the info came from Disney.

"Since making your reservation we have been notified by resort that for 2008 departures, the Disney Dining Plan package has changed. The new dining plan no longer has a starter as part of the table service meal, and gratuities are no longer included in the price. All other aspects of the dining plan remain unchanged".

Also, for those wondering about the taxes -- I don't think they can sell a plan like this without charging tax on it, so I'm sure the tax (only 6.5%, so not a biggie anyway) will stay.



THis is from virgins web site
"Disney Dining Plan
The Disney Dining Plan is an exclusive benefit for Disney Resort hotel guests, offering terrific value on Disney Holidays. It's a fantastic points system that gives complete flexibility to eat meals in any combination from a choice of over 100 WALT DISNEY WORLD restaurants.

The plan offers 2 meals and a snack per night for everyone in the party ages 3 years and over. A table service meal includes 1 starter, 1 main course, 1 dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage, or 1 full buffet and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage.
A counter service meal includes 1 main course, 1 dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage, or 1 complete combo meal with dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage.

A snack includes one of the following: frozen ice-cream bar, popcorn scoop, a piece of fruit, 20oz bottle of coke®, Diet Coke®, Sprite® or 24oz bottle of Dasani® water.

Plus, guests can also enjoy character dining experiences, Disney's fabulous Dinner Shows, or dining in luxury at one of the participating Disney Signature Restaurants.

Terms and Conditions
Advance dining reservations are strongly suggested. All dinner shows require advance dining reservations - show tickets can be aquired through lobby concierge.
The Dining Plan must be booked a minimum of 21 days before departure and is only available on single-centre holidays. Bookings MUST include at least a 5-night stay at a WALT DISNEY WORLD Resort hotel AND Disney tickets, for all people on the booking, both booked through Virgin Holidays. The Disney Dining Plan must be booked for everyone on the booking, for the full duration of their stay. The Disney Dining Plan is only available at selected restaurants; full details can be provided on request. Children 3-9 years must order from the children's menu, where available. Children aged 2 years and under are not eligible for the Dining Plan and must pay locally for any food/drink consumed.
The Dining Plan will not be valid if the above conditions are not compiled with. In these circumstances we reserve the right to alter your booking accordingly.
To book please call us after making your holiday booking, quoting your booking reference klklklklk 2468

Disney's Key to the World
Holidaying at Disney just got easier with their Key to the World card! Presented to each member of your party on arrival, this card is not just a room key, it enables you to charge food and merchandise to it, so there's no need to carry cash. What's more all of your souvenirs will be delivered straight to your resort hotel room. Now that's what we call magic!
FREE Parking
All guests staying in a Disney Resort Hotel receive FREE parking at all Disney Parks, including the 2 Water Parks and Downtown Disney.
There are also some great car upgrade offers available."


I feel that the rumor mill is getting the best of everyone on this..

I have contacted DVC and Disney and DISNEY DINNING there are NO RATES OUT FOR 2008 ANYWHERE

This defeats the total purpose of dinning

RUMOR

Go here and read it !!http://www.virginholidays.co.uk/brochures/florida/holidays/orlando/walt_disney_world_resort/

This is so far fetched!!!!! I think it was bad or incorrect info

[CarolA]

IMO most people, myself included, tip more than 18% I usually give 20% or more. But I do not like when a tip is included, at that point it is no longer a tip but a fee. I know a lot of places do this but IMO it serves no one the server will get 18% wether the service is good or bad and the customer may be forced to tip some one that does not desrve it. I rarely have service bad enough that I don't give atleast 20% but I want the option. I agree that if they remove the tip they should reduce the cost.
"mandatory gratuity" is this like military inteligence :rotfl:



While I generally agree I am very concerned that the tip MUST be mandatory on DDP. I have followed the various DIS boards and spent too much time at Disney to have much faith in my fellow travelers. I can see this logic ALL to easily.... "DDP costs me $38. I figure they pay $25 of that for the TS meal 18% of of $25 is $4.50 so that's my tip"

Don't believe me. Read this board there is at least one poster who seems to be saying he/she doesn't tip as a high percentage at Disney because "meals are overpriced" So he/she "inflation" adjusts the tip? (Of course living in Orlando is also fairly costly from what I learned when I looked at a job down there, but that never comes up LOL!)


I once was in the Rose and Crown and heard someone say "you don't need to tip, you don't tip in Pubs in England" Well that may be true, but this pub is NOT in England....:rotfl2:

It is not fair for the servers to be "ripped off" because of this change.

[DBorges]

Ok I must be the exception if I get great or good service even witht he dinning plan I tip 20% of the Bill even if they all ready got there 18%.

Maybe it is because when I eat at the concorse steak house I feel that i have paid less by buying the dinning plan then the meal is actual worth..

I have eaten the off the dinning plan a nd drop 175 with out tip so i figure that the fee for the dinning plan for the day is not a fair reflection of the meal cost .

Besides the people your tip live off the tips so if the go the extra mile i tip higher

Now this is a better why to look at this other then talking about rumors lol:banana:

[CarolA]

I don't think you have all the facts....

If you attempt to book a 2008 package with dining THIS appears.....


• The Dining Plan must be booked a minimum of 21 days before departure, it is only available on single centre holidays, and is not vaild for wedding packages, or cruise and stay packages. Bookings MUST include at least a 5 night stay at a Walt Disney World Resort Hotel AND Disney tickets, for all people on the booking, both booked through Virgin Holidays. The Disney Dining Plan must be booked for everyone on the booking, for the full duration of their stay. The Disney Dining Plan is only available on selected restaurants, full details can be provided on request. Children 3-9 years must order from the children's menu, where available. Children age 2 years and under are not eligible for the Dining Plan and must pay locally for any only food/drink consumed. The Dining Plan will not be vaild if the above conditions are not complied with. In these circumstances we reserve the right to alter your booking accordingly. Please note advanced Dining reservations are strongly suggested. All Dinner shows require advanced dining reservations - show tickets can be acquired through your hotels concierge. Please note: For guests wishing to stay at any Walt Disney World Resort hotel for longer than 21 nights, it will be necessary to check out of your room and then check back in on the 21st night due to Disney's regulations. Please note: For 2008 departures, the Disney Dining Plan package has been changed. The new dining plan no longer has a starter as part of the table service meal, and gratuities are no longer included in the price.


FACT!!!!

You have to agree to the above statement about the Dining Plan before you book it..... Now Disney could change thier mind, but Virgin would not have put this on thier booking conditions based on rumors on the DIS:lmao:

THis is from virgins web site
"Disney Dining Plan
The Disney Dining Plan is an exclusive benefit for Disney Resort hotel guests, offering terrific value on Disney Holidays. It's a fantastic points system that gives complete flexibility to eat meals in any combination from a choice of over 100 WALT DISNEY WORLD restaurants.

The plan offers 2 meals and a snack per night for everyone in the party ages 3 years and over. A table service meal includes 1 starter, 1 main course, 1 dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage, or 1 full buffet and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage.
A counter service meal includes 1 main course, 1 dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage, or 1 complete combo meal with dessert and 1 single-serving non-alcoholic beverage.

A snack includes one of the following: frozen ice-cream bar, popcorn scoop, a piece of fruit, 20oz bottle of coke®, Diet Coke®, Sprite® or 24oz bottle of Dasani® water.

Plus, guests can also enjoy character dining experiences, Disney's fabulous Dinner Shows, or dining in luxury at one of the participating Disney Signature Restaurants.

Terms and Conditions
Advance dining reservations are strongly suggested. All dinner shows require advance dining reservations - show tickets can be aquired through lobby concierge.
The Dining Plan must be booked a minimum of 21 days before departure and is only available on single-centre holidays. Bookings MUST include at least a 5-night stay at a WALT DISNEY WORLD Resort hotel AND Disney tickets, for all people on the booking, both booked through Virgin Holidays. The Disney Dining Plan must be booked for everyone on the booking, for the full duration of their stay. The Disney Dining Plan is only available at selected restaurants; full details can be provided on request. Children 3-9 years must order from the children's menu, where available. Children aged 2 years and under are not eligible for the Dining Plan and must pay locally for any food/drink consumed.
The Dining Plan will not be valid if the above conditions are not compiled with. In these circumstances we reserve the right to alter your booking accordingly.
To book please call us after making your holiday booking, quoting your booking reference klklklklk 2468

Disney's Key to the World
Holidaying at Disney just got easier with their Key to the World card! Presented to each member of your party on arrival, this card is not just a room key, it enables you to charge food and merchandise to it, so there's no need to carry cash. What's more all of your souvenirs will be delivered straight to your resort hotel room. Now that's what we call magic!
FREE Parking
All guests staying in a Disney Resort Hotel receive FREE parking at all Disney Parks, including the 2 Water Parks and Downtown Disney.
There are also some great car upgrade offers available."


I feel that the rumor mill is getting the best of everyone on this..

I have contacted DVC and Disney and DISNEY DINNING there are NO RATES OUT FOR 2008 ANYWHERE

This defeats the total purpose of dinning

RUMOR

Go here and read it !!http://www.virginholidays.co.uk/brochures/florida/holidays/orlando/walt_disney_world_resort/

This is so far fetched!!!!! I think it was bad or incorrect info

[BCV23]

Coming late to this thread but tax has always been included in the DDP price.....both the tax on the meal and the tax for the price of the package itself. It's $38.99/day...no tax added to that.

I agree with you Carol. I really hope gratuity is still included. I remember someone on the dining forum say they couldn't afford to dine in TS spots if they tipped as they should. So they just stiffed the server as it was their vacation and they wanted to enjoy TS.

Your R&C experience is actually funny although pathetic.:rotfl:

[salmoneous]

but Virgin would not have put this on thier booking conditions based on rumors on the DIS:lmao: No, but I think it very possible that somebody at Virgin received information they thought was definitive, but was really just the same rumors all of us have heard.

Many people have heard rumors from what they thought were definitive Disney representatives and taken it as fact.

[CarolA]

No, but I think it very possible that somebody at Virgin received information they thought was definitive, but was really just the same rumors all of us have heard.

Many people have heard rumors from what they thought were definitive Disney representatives and taken it as fact.

I think Virgin has something definitive from Disney. This is a major corporation. They would not post based on rumors. They have contracts etc. Virgin has committed to a block of rooms for 2008 and has pricing which is allowing them to book 2008 packages with guranteed pricing (try doing that in the US, doesn't work LOL!) Virgin does a HUGE volume of business with Disney (as in whole Jumbo Jets of tourists a day)

As I said, Disney could "backtrack" but if Virgin had NOT received a formal communication from Disney I don't think they would be making thier statement.

[DBorges]

I don't think you have all the facts....

If you attempt to book a 2008 package with dining THIS appears.....


• The Dining Plan must be booked a minimum of 21 days before departure, it is only available on single centre holidays, and is not vaild for wedding packages, or cruise and stay packages. Bookings MUST include at least a 5 night stay at a Walt Disney World Resort Hotel AND Disney tickets, for all people on the booking, both booked through Virgin Holidays. The Disney Dining Plan must be booked for everyone on the booking, for the full duration of their stay. The Disney Dining Plan is only available on selected restaurants, full details can be provided on request. Children 3-9 years must order from the children's menu, where available. Children age 2 years and under are not eligible for the Dining Plan and must pay locally for any only food/drink consumed. The Dining Plan will not be vaild if the above conditions are not complied with. In these circumstances we reserve the right to alter your booking accordingly. Please note advanced Dining reservations are strongly suggested. All Dinner shows require advanced dining reservations - show tickets can be acquired through your hotels concierge. Please note: For guests wishing to stay at any Walt Disney World Resort hotel for longer than 21 nights, it will be necessary to check out of your room and then check back in on the 21st night due to Disney's regulations. Please note: For 2008 departures, the Disney Dining Plan package has been changed. The new dining plan no longer has a starter as part of the table service meal, and gratuities are no longer included in the price.


FACT!!!!

You have to agree to the above statement about the Dining Plan before you book it..... Now Disney could change thier mind, but Virgin would not have put this on thier booking conditions based on rumors on the DIS:lmao:

I just found it on the Virgins site ok that is in writting
I have looked into this for three days and talk too several cast members about who all have no info about this what so ever.

It maybe the package they have arranged with disney

Now that i found it I wll dig further

Ok I am digging

As of 1200 pm today there is not one peice of info other then the posting on virgins site

Disneys IT department doesn't even have a clue about this..
Disney Dinning DVC res no one has this info

SO this yes does seem strange

On the phone with england as wee are sitting here

Ok here is the poop the contract that virgin has worked out with Disney is no starter and no tip and a reduced rate to get the plan..

This in no way is the usa plan nor is it to be assumed that it would change our plan>>

this was told to me by a superviser virgin whom i spoke to today at 12:27

Hope this helps

[DBorges]

Disney Booking knows nothing of this contract and also said it seems far fected that they would change it in this way..

I think time will tell the info is due to be released here in the states on or about aug 14th..

I do not think it will applie to us bookings

[disneynutz]

Disney Booking knows nothing of this contract and also said it seems far fected that they would change it in this way..

I think time will tell the info is due to be released here in the states on or about aug 14th..

I do not think it will applie to us bookings

Who cares? If the changes occur as expected then DDP is not for us. If it doesn't change I will use it for 4 or 5 days of our 11 day DVC stay just as we always have. Any more than that and we are sick of eating steak and lobster. We don't fall into the DDP trap using it for hamburgers. :thumbsup2

[DBorges]

Who cares? If the changes occur as expected then DDP is not for us. If it doesn't change I will use it for 4 or 5 days of our 11 day DVC stay just as we always have. Any more than that and we are sick of eating steak and lobster. We don't fall into the DDP trap using it for hamburgers. :thumbsup2

I use it for counter service when in a park but other then that i eat at good full service places either way I think i would still use it .:dance3:

To me this is ore of the priciple of people assuming that it will change.:scared:

Rumor !!!!!

:rotfl2:

Hell I look forward to my 15 extra pounds I gain on vacation ..

I just wish that the rumor mill could get it right so people do not have to guess at what they think Disney will do..

[Chuck S]

Since this change has been negotiated with Virgin (according to Virgin), I don't doubt that the regular DDP will make similar changes...UNLESS the Virgin plan uses paper vouchers, rather than being encoded onto the room keys. Othwise, it would be way too confusing for the servers/restauants to differentiate between the plans in day to day use. They already have the DDE, the DDP, and a gold/platinum plan to keep up with.

[disneynutz]

I use it for counter service when in a park but other then that i eat at good full service places either way I think i would still use it .:dance3:

To me this is ore of the priciple of people assuming that it will change.:scared:

Rumor !!!!!

:rotfl2:

Hell I look forward to my 15 extra pounds I gain on vacation ..

I just wish that the rumor mill could get it right so people do not have to guess at what they think Disney will do..

You can guess, call, verify, all you want. What will be will be. Like I said. We will wait and see what happens. For us a $22.00 per adult per day increase is not worth it. That's $62 per day for the DDP. :eek:

[JimMIA]

Disney Booking knows nothing of this contract Disney CRO and Disney Dining are always the last to know. Or at least the last to admit they know.

And even your "superviser virgin whom i spoke to today at 12:27" (not sure what that is!:rotfl2: ) doesn't seem to know what is on their own website.

I can call a thousand know-nothings -- that proves nothing except that they don't know anything.

However, I think the information I've seen on one side, most of which has been independently verified to some degree, outweighs the people who say they don't know. I have seen the following verified information on the DIS:

1. The contract was renegotiated to permit elimination of the gratuity from the DDP.
2. WDW servers who have been right on all aspects of the DDP for years say the gratuity is gone.
3. DIS members in the UK, who have already purchased packages for 2008 (many UK travelers book a year or more in advance) have been officially notified in writing, by Virgin Holidays, that the Disney Dining Plan they purchased has been changed. The changes cited are elimination of the "starter" on the TS meal, and elimination of the gratuity. This is not a change in Virgin's package, they say the Disney Dining Plan has changed.
4. The same wording cited in the letters from Virgin Holidays appears on their website as part of the new pre-purchase agreement all purchasers must agree to in order to book. It says, no "starter" and no gratuity included for 2008.

When I read all of that information -- and see it independently verified by posters I respect and trust, as well as verifying some of it myself -- the best case scenario I can come up with for 2008 is I hope they include the option of a soup or salad in place of the appetizer. And maybe include the appy on 2 TS meals. I can't get any more hopeful than that...sorry.

None of us know for sure, but I believe both the appy and tip are history.

Some families may still benefit from DDP under those conditions, but many will not.

[salmoneous]

Since this change has been negotiated with Virgin (according to Virgin), Just to be nitpicky, Virgin has not said they have negotiated such a change with Disney. Virgin has put something on a website that has lead people to conclude that they have negotiated something with Disney.

We'll just have to wait and see...

[BCV23]

Still more speculation on this thread...3 meals/day, bottle of wine and mugs.:confused3

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1526120

If starters are gone, I wouldn't think a salad or soup would be allowed.

Personally, I'd rather the desserts be off and appetizer still included.

[CarolA]

Well one I am amazed that someone cares enough to call the UK from MA just to see what they can find out.

However, the really interesting part is that if Virgin did this to save money they sure as heck aren't passing it on to thier guests. Over on the DDP board someone actually figured out the incremental cost for the DDP from Virgin. I think its around $50 a day....:rotfl2: So Virgin guests get LESS for more money???

(posters who buy the package via Virgin have pointed out that Virgins pricing tradionally does not mirror Disney's but has different mark ups. However, they must give a good value overall based on the bookings!)

As for the link BCV23 posted.... I think it's about as truthful as my announcement of the Eagle Pins "rustic" retreat..... (that was the one where your DVC membership let you camp in case you missed it!) Disney is not giving away wine.... There are LAWS against that LOL! (Not to mention every Southern Baptist within 10,000 miles would be demanding a refund for the "wages of sin":rotfl: )

[BCV23]

Well, I don't think it said anything about "giving away" wine....rather it was included in the price as I read it. It certainly would be a huge departure though. Even the ridiculously priced platinum plans of the past never included alcohol with the exception of meals like the Hoop and the Luau where certain alcoholic beverages are included in the price of the meal for everyone over 21.

Did enjoy the Eagle Pines Rustic Retreat concept though.:rotfl:

[DBorges]

You people amaze me more then rumors

I did reseach this more then anyone else here FACT!!!!

Disney has no knowlegde of a change for 2008 in the dinning

Virgin does have it posted on there site they did say that they made a contract with disney and that it is less..

I mean no offence to the all knowing disney posters here since there rumors get turned to fact..

All you need to do is look back over shall we say the last 14 years and the dinning plan has only changed from a voucher system to being apart of the key to the world card.

The price has changed over the years

IT makes no sence to take away these items it is only rumor..

Hell The people that would know did not even know that virgin had that statement on there web site and Disney IT side is looking into that now.

Because I repete NO price for the ddp has been released to anyone.

There are people here how just may know more they you think.

So you can think what you want BUT IT IS A RUMOR..

I am waiting like alot of other dvc members to add the ddp to their resies

So yes that is why i even read this post I was simple amaze at the lack of understanding or even lack knowledge of some here..

You seem all to quick to attack me for pointing out it is rumor..

Funny I must have hit a soft stop in most of you.

I could ramble on for hours but I will not I will just watch you draw answers from rumors and think wow where do they get this from:confused3

This is fact Disney has not released the ddp for 2008 virgin is doing what ever and disney is not privey too it or at least now they are.

So rumor on folks

[DBorges]

Well one I am amazed that someone cares enough to call the UK from MA just to see what they can find out.

However, the really interesting part is that if Virgin did this to save money they sure as heck aren't passing it on to thier guests. Over on the DDP board someone actually figured out the incremental cost for the DDP from Virgin. I think its around $50 a day....:rotfl2: So Virgin guests get LESS for more money???

(posters who buy the package via Virgin have pointed out that Virgins pricing tradionally does not mirror Disney's but has different mark ups. However, they must give a good value overall based on the bookings!)

As for the link BCV23 posted.... I think it's about as truthful as my announcement of the Eagle Pins "rustic" retreat..... (that was the one where your DVC membership let you camp in case you missed it!) Disney is not giving away wine.... There are LAWS against that LOL! (Not to mention every Southern Baptist within 10,000 miles would be demanding a refund for the "wages of sin":rotfl: )

There are also famous for say to a uk traveler that they booked a club level room and when they get to disney they have a normal room..

All I am saying is it is still a rumor and yes i did call the uk cause I hate to be told something that is just wrong..

[BCV23]

To me it is all speculation until WDW releases info on any changes.

But DBorges, I disagree that the dining plan has only changed from vouchers to KTTW card. There have been different iterations of the basic dining plan over the years. There was a Food and Fun plan, another where you received so many "wishes." I don't recall any that included one snack, one QS and one TS per day.

We used to do the old Gold Key plan which is largely unchanged since the early 80s and never received vouchers. Which plan used vouchers?

[DBorges]

That was what used a voucher program I used it back 1994..

Like you said it is only a guessing game .

I think some people take rumor to heart and get worked up into a up roar

Just sit back and watch time will tell but too me it is all a rumor and if virgin is doing what they normaly do by screwing the uk people that is there issue.

For me I will put my money on two things The DDP will be the same with a increase and the Red Sox will have a better record then them damn Yankee's

you heard it here first folks let the rumor mill go wild now lol

[Muushka]

No offense to you DBorges, but the reason why I listen to certain posters on these boards is because they have a history, they do their homework and they don't just throw out wild speculations. I have been on these boards long enough to know when something is probably true, and it is usually stated by someone that I trust.

I don't enjoy rumors, I think they are a waste of time and mental energy. But I do appreciate an informed speculation.

[DBorges]

No offense to you DBorges, but the reason why I listen to certain posters on these boards is because they have a history, they do their homework and they don't just throw out wild speculations. I have been on these boards long enough to know when something is probably true, and it is usually stated by someone that I trust.

I don't enjoy rumors, I think they are a waste of time and mental energy. But I do appreciate an informed speculation.

First off I have thick skin...:banana:

I just do not think what was been said was rumor that had facts behind it..

I thrive off find out things must be my law enforcement nature But i knew that was way to far fectch too..:cool2:

The Sox will still beat the Yankees :lmao:

Hell we may even win the World series again lol how that for a rumor:eek:

[Muushka]

Hell we may even win the World series again lol how that for a rumor:eek:

I'm a native New Englander. That would be fine with me!

It's funny. My husband does not read the boards, but he relies on me to keep him informed. I always say "Well the new rumor is...". I never say that to him unless someone that I trust has reported it. And in the past 9 years, I really can't think of any rumor that I told my husband that did not turn out to be true.

[Chuck S]

Actually, the dining plan has changed a lot over the years. Food N Fun wasn't just vouchers, it (or a similarly named program) evolved into a "pay $50, get $55 worth of food" plan in its final year.

The DDP has not been available as a separate add on, only as part of a resort package, including room, tickets, and other "perks" like a free Birmbaum guide book. It has only been available to DVC for 2 years. It also changed to specify "1 CS, 1 TS and 1 snack" Pricing has changed, they used to have "Junior" class pricing for teens on packages. And tracking of adult and child credits just was reported this year.

If Virgin is correct (and they did go through the expense of notifying booked guests, as well as altering their website, which may lead to some folks canceling) then I would suspect that the overall DDP will be the same...why add another level of dining plan only for one travel provider that would require all restaurant staff to be taught about the changes, and take time & $$ to implement?

At this point, yes, it is still speculation, as these changes haven't been formally announced by Disney...but the evergrowing pool of circumstantial evidence leads me to believe it is true. Disney phone CMs are often the last to be informed of changes, and they most likely won't be informed of any changes until the 2008 rates for rooms and packages are ready for booking in their computers.

I also want to remind everyone of the DIS Site Guidelines (http://www.wdwinfo.com/guidelines.htm), especially the part about argumentive and sarcastic posts.

The DIS forums are about open discussion and differing opinions. Everyone may express theirs, and everyone has one.

[hansel1]

The problem with rumors is that if you hear them enough, they become fact in your mind.

Let's not forget that last year the big issue was that the non-disney owned restaurant were not going to re-sign with disney to be included on the DDP for 2007 as they were losing money. Many people jumped on that band wagon. Yet, the DDP was exactly as it had been the year previous while raising prices slightly. The only real difference is that they expanded the snack category to include more.

[disneynutz]

I also want to remind everyone of the DIS Site Guidelines (http://www.wdwinfo.com/guidelines.htm), especially the part about argumentive and sarcastic posts.

The DIS forums are about open discussion and differing opinions. Everyone may express theirs, and everyone has one.


Okay, Okay... I take back everything nasty that I have ever said or thought of saying about you Chuck. :hippie:

[Chuck S]

Okay, Okay... I take back everything nasty that I have ever said or thought of saying about you Chuck. :hippie:

:rotfl2: Everyone just needs to remember to play nice.

[jarestel]

It's true enough that until an official announcement is made, everything could be dismissed as idle chatter and speculation. I don't care personally one way or the other what happens to the DDP, but I have always subscribed to the "where there's smoke, there's fire" philosophy. Seems like an awful lot of smoke here!

Time will tell.

[Sammie]

Disney has no knowlegde of a change for 2008 in the dinning

Actually that is not accurate. Everyone that works for Disney does not have knowledge of changes in 2008 for the dining plan, but there are people who work for Disney that do know.

[salmoneous]

Let's not forget that last year the big issue was that the non-disney owned restaurant were not going to re-sign with disney to be included on the DDP for 2007 as they were losing money. Many people jumped on that band wagon. Yet, the DDP was exactly as it had been the year previous while raising prices slightly. And if you remember, that wasn't just rumor. There were actually published lists of DDP restaurants that didn't include the outside-owned. Always wait and see.

Oh, and just for my own understanding, is Virgin the only bit of circumstantial evidence that appetizers getting dropped, or was there something else?

[DBorges]

And if you remember, that wasn't just rumor. There were actually published lists of DDP restaurants that didn't include the outside-owned. Always wait and see.

Oh, and just for my own understanding, is Virgin the only bit of circumstantial evidence that appetizers getting dropped, or was there something else?

You are right!!!!!!! :cool1: that is it nothing else anywhere..:dance3:

[JimMIA]

...must be my law enforcement nature Now you're really starting to scare me, David. I had no idea we had similar backgrounds!

The Sox will still beat the Yankees :lmao:I have no problem with that.

Hell we may even win the World series again lol how that for a rumor:eek:I can give you some advice based on our experience with the Florida Marlins. :banana: :banana: :banana:

Don't get carried away with winning a World Series -- you only win one every 5-6 years!

Lemme see: Opening day of the franchise 1993...World Series Champs 1997...World Series Champs 2003...hmmm, maybe not this year...

[JimMIA]

Let's not forget that last year the big issue was that the non-disney owned restaurant were not going to re-sign with disney to be included on the DDP for 2007 as they were losing money. Many people jumped on that band wagon.Actually, when the first brochure went to press, a bunch of newbies panicked and started a bunch of threads freaking out because a LOT of restaurants were not in the brochure. Other people were counseling those folks to just relax, because the lineup would be the same. And sure enough, those wise souls were right.

Those wise souls from last year are the same people who are saying the rumors are right this year.

I think Sammie's post above is worth re-reading and remembering. There are always many, many people in the Disney organization who are not privy to every decision made. There are, after all, 65,000 employees at WDW alone.

But just because not everyone is in the loop yet, doesn't mean decisions haven't been made...and communicated to important partners.

Personally, I would love to see DDP remain as it is...with a modest price increase if necessary. But I do not think that is what is going to happen...or has already happened, depending on where you sit.

[patsal]

Same number of scoops but much richer. :lmao:

For the coffee company that is. :thumbsup2

Yeah, I know, but I don't have to like it! Just like the new more absorbant paper towels that I need to pay more for less of, etc. I know it is wait and see, I know there are other restaurants I like off site and will not mind returning to, but I did like the convienience. Now I can easily add days at Universal and Seaworld and not worry about wasting food credits though--gotta look for that silver lining!:lmao:

[DBorges]

Now you're really starting to scare me, David. I had no idea we had similar backgrounds!

I have no problem with that.

I can give you some advice based on our experience with the Florida Marlins. :banana: :banana: :banana:

Don't get carried away with winning a World Series -- you only win one every 5-6 years!

Lemme see: Opening day of the franchise 1993...World Series Champs 1997...World Series Champs 2003...hmmm, maybe not this year...


Great minds think alike marlins that is a team?? lol


Yep I think we are all reading into this

[JimMIA]

Oh, and just for my own understanding, is Virgin the only bit of circumstantial evidence that appetizers getting dropped, or was there something else?Yes, that's correct. Virgin Holidays is the only source of the no-appetizers change that anyone's heard of.

But you have to consider the context. What Virgin Holidays said was not that they heard...not that there was a rumor.

They said they had been advised by the resort (WDW) that the Disney Dining Plan has changed for 2008...as we have been discussing. They not only made that a part of the pre-purchase disclosures on their website, they personally notified all of their customers with existing reservations in writing of the change.

To me, that's a pretty dramatic statement that a well-known and presumably well-connected firm in the travel industry knows a change has been made. I just can't imagine them going to all that trouble without really knowing. Just doesn't make sense.

From only one source...yes. Only circumstantial...yes.

But fingerprint and DNA evidence are also only circumstantial.

[salmoneous]

Jim

This is all fun speculation. But to give my thought process (and *not* to argue that others are wrong) I'm left with two scenarios. Which is more likely:

1) Somebody at Disney passed unofficial speculation to a TA in a foreign country. The TA either (1) misunderstood that the information wasn't final and official, or (2) the TA felt the need to cover their *** and warn clients just in case.

2) Disney has made the decision to effectively gut the DDP, making it near useless for adults. Disney has shared that information with one foreign TA and let that TA give the information to their clients. But hasn't allowed anyone else to share the information.

Option (1) may seem odd, but (2) just seems crazy.

[pilferk]

Jim

This is all fun speculation. But to give my thought process (and *not* to argue that others are wrong) I'm left with two scenarios. Which is more likely:

1) Somebody at Disney passed unofficial speculation to a TA in a foreign country. The TA either (1) misunderstood that the information wasn't final and official, or (2) the TA felt the need to cover their *** and warn clients just in case.

2) Disney has made the decision to effectively gut the DDP, making it near useless for adults. Disney has shared that information with one foreign TA and let that TA give the information to their clients. But hasn't allowed anyone else to share the information.

Option (1) may seem odd, but (2) just seems crazy.

Given Disney's (and Virgin's) past history, I'd say 1 is completely out of character for either corporation and 2 seems to be indicative of how things have progressed historically (create incentive, milk it for increasing occupancy and attendance, gut it when it get's too popular/costly).

But that's just MHO.

[Inkmahm]

Given Disney's (and Virgin's) past history, I'd say 1 is completely out of character for either corporation and 2 seems to be indicative of how things have progressed historically (create incentive, milk it for increasing occupancy and attendance, gut it when it get's too popular/costly).

But that's just MHO.
Eactly. Number 2 is very likely I'd say.

[Sammie]

The information from Virgin is not incorrect, as to what affect that will have on the US plan is yet to be revealed. I would say US tour operators will get their info in a couple of weeks.

It is very possible that the plans will be different and while some think that would be a nightmare for servers, it will all be coded in the guest card just as if you were on a Silver or Gold plan where the options were different.

[Anthony1971]

Rumor form the inside as my Guide told me --and this was before any speculation thread on the Dis about this.... "it has to change as it is like giving the Cow away for free" That was durning a conversation about past dinning plans and this one and how cheap this is comapred to the past.
IMO it has to cahnge as I do not see how they are making money... But if they can get people use to eating at TS they will come back and pay full price or have thier family call them cheap among enjoying the sit down meals themselves :lmao:

[tjkraz]

Disney has had many variations of prepaid dining plans over the years and none favored the comsumer nearly as well as the 2005-2007 plan. It's inevitable that changes will follow.

One of the main problems of the current plan is that it as positioned to help the resorts unit at the expense of the dining business unit. In order to book the DDP, one has to pay full rack rates and buy tickets in a package with the DDP. So the hotels are benefitting and ticket sales are benefitting while the dining unit is getting harmed in the process. All parties involved may have understood this from the outset, but that level of forgiveness gets lost over time. Before long the sliding profitability of the dining unit is being questioned. They respond by paring down menus, reducing portions and raising menu prices for those NOT on a dining plan. But those are merely stopgap measures. You can't continue to serve $50-60 meals for the stipend ($28?) provided by the dining plan.

I agree that there's a lot yet to be revealed on this. Perhaps they will change the dynamic of the entire package. In exchange for the modifications to the dining plan, perhaps the guests booking packages will start getting 10% off of their room rates. :confused3

Something is going to change and we'll know more before long.

[disneynutz]

Disney has had many variations of prepaid dining plans over the years and none favored the comsumer nearly as well as the 2005-2007 plan. It's inevitable that changes will follow.

One of the main problems of the current plan is that it as positioned to help the resorts unit at the expense of the dining business unit. In order to book the DDP, one has to pay full rack rates and buy tickets in a package with the DDP. So the hotels are benefitting and ticket sales are benefitting while the dining unit is getting harmed in the process. All parties involved may have understood this from the outset, but that level of forgiveness gets lost over time. Before long the sliding profitability of the dining unit is being questioned. They respond by paring down menus, reducing portions and raising menu prices for those NOT on a dining plan. But those are merely stopgap measures. You can't continue to serve $50-60 meals for the stipend ($28?) provided by the dining plan.

I agree that there's a lot yet to be revealed on this. Perhaps they will change the dynamic of the entire package. In exchange for the modifications to the dining plan, perhaps the guests booking packages will start getting 10% off of their room rates. :confused3

Something is going to change and we'll know more before long.

Disney is not in the business of loosing money. Their stock is up 17%. Last year saw record attendance. What does a $60 dollar meal actually cost Disney. We know that they get their Soft Drink syrup for free but I don't see them giving away free drinks. What other deals do the have in place for food items? One Disney unit may look on paper as if they are loosing money but the other units are making more than enough money to make up for it. As a Cast member told me, "it all comes back to the Mouse".

[Chuck S]

True, but the privately owned places at EPCOT can't keep losing their profit. It may all go into the Mouse's pocket, but each division needs to show profit. Even a $3.00 beverage, if the syrup is free, would cost Disney $$ to give away. The cost of labor, the cost of water, and the cost of "location", debt service, taxes, payrool taxes...much, like your grocery store, there needs to be $X profit per square foot of food service area.

For instance, if a video store rents movies for $3, sells a coke for $1.95 that cost $.50 and makes $2 profit, then offers a special of a free coke with two rentals, it still loses profit on the transaction.

See, if the coke makes $1.45 per bottle profit, then the movie makes $.55. So renting two movies still gives less profit ($1.10) than the single movie and coke sale. Then add the $.50 cost to the store for the coke, then the profit is down to $.60...so even if the store rents 6 movies and gives away 2 cokes, they are still cutting their actual profit by 20 cents to $1.80.

Gross profit looks great, net profit still suffers.

Evidently there was not enough increase in restaurant volume to offset the loss in net profit in the food division.

[DBorges]

Here is a thing to think about i had a bottle of Nivole moscato d'asti at disney last month it cost me 28 plus tax I buy that same wine at home for 7.50.

When disney is buy food stuff ie fish beef .

They buy big and get it cheapo..

So your 35 dollar steak is costing them about 2 buck for the steak and the items with it are cheaper.

So are they making money of the dinning plan as it is now YES volume alone covers it.

Plus the fact people go there just to get the dinning hence they make money on the resort end

Also Park addmission is need for alot of places so that is more money they make ..

Like I have said before this is a rumor virgins contract has no bearing at all on the ddp

Relax have a beer and watch the SOX WIN..

so on the meal that cost you on the bill actualy cost them 30.00 but they got you for booze and admission then if you are a sap like me I tip on top of that is the service is good.

Disney is not losing on that they have us by the stones like always why do you think the staff memebers smile lol

[salmoneous]

Evidently there was not enough increase in restaurant volume to offset the loss in net profit in the food division. To be picky for a second, do we have any evidence that there has been any loss in profits at the food divisions?

[Chuck S]

To be picky for a second, do we have any evidence that there has been any loss in profits at the food divisions?


There would almost have to have been, especially in cost to profit ratio, as you now have to serve more meals to get the same actual profit.

For instance, if the average non-DDP entree cost Disney $4 to produce and they make $20 per entree at the table if folks just eat the entree, then adding the cost of beverage, appetizer and dessert for DDP cuts into that profit. Less profit per dollar spent, a lower profit to cost ratio.

[DBorges]

Actually, when the first brochure went to press, a bunch of newbies panicked and started a bunch of threads freaking out because a LOT of restaurants were not in the brochure. Other people were counseling those folks to just relax, because the lineup would be the same. And sure enough, those wise souls were right.

Those wise souls from last year are the same people who are saying the rumors are right this year.

I think Sammie's post above is worth re-reading and remembering. There are always many, many people in the Disney organization who are not privy to every decision made. There are, after all, 65,000 employees at WDW alone.

But just because not everyone is in the loop yet, doesn't mean decisions haven't been made...and communicated to important partners.

Personally, I would love to see DDP remain as it is...with a modest price increase if necessary. But I do not think that is what is going to happen...or has already happened, depending on where you sit.


Jim we are why to much alike it is scarey RUMOR IS RUMOR untill you have the fact or have the knowledge to make not that..

We have nothing at all tp prove anything

[CarolA]

Here is a thing to think about i had a bottle of Nivole moscato d'asti at disney last month it cost me 28 plus tax I buy that same wine at home for 7.50.

When disney is buy food stuff ie fish beef .

They buy big and get it cheapo..

So your 35 dollar steak is costing them about 2 buck for the steak and the items with it are cheaper.

So are they making money of the dinning plan as it is now YES volume alone covers it.

Plus the fact people go there just to get the dinning hence they make money on the resort end

Also Park addmission is need for alot of places so that is more money they make ..

Like I have said before this is a rumor virgins contract has no bearing at all on the ddp

Relax have a beer and watch the SOX WIN..

so on the meal that cost you on the bill actualy cost them 30.00 but they got you for booze and admission then if you are a sap like me I tip on top of that is the service is good.

Disney is not losing on that they have us by the stones like always why do you think the staff memebers smile lol


You leave out the one "unknown"

Are the resturants NOT owned by Disney losing money? And I think that may be one of the issues. Remember last year they signed the contracts very late in the process (as was evidenced by the fact that none of them were included in the initial "offical" information on the dining plan and that's not rumor it's fact) I think they may be pushing back and pushing back HARD on this. (I would if I was one of them.) They may or may NOT be covered by "Disney's volume" deals on food etc. Who knows how all that works? But if Disney isn't either paying them more or subsidizing thier costs then somethings got to give. They either find a way to make more money or drop out of DDP which dramatically reduces the options since I think it's about half of the Epcot resturants and most of the DTD resturants. If they drop out that puts a LOT of pressure on the remaining resturants to "fill the gap" making reservations even harder to get. (Resulting in people mad at Disney when they can't use the DDP) So Disney needs to keep them in and profitable. They can't be a "loss leader"

They don't care that the resorts and/or parks divisons are making money. That's not thier goal, thier goal is to make money for themselves!

(And here is the deal anything you hear from Virgin Supervisors, Disney CMs etc is not the "facts" Contrary to the DIS board view Disney executives don't tell bus drivers, CRO etc. thier plans. They KNOW those folks can't keep a secret. So unless Meg Croton sends you a personal message..... it's all rumor and fun to talk about.)

[keishashadow]

I expect to pay a pricey markup for wine/liquor in a restaurant; esp. since we're used to it in in PA with our arcane state store system.:sad2:

IMO, $28 for a bottle of wine is a steal @ WDW

During our June trip, @ Ca Grill the tab for 1 glass of lowest priced chardonnay, tax & gratuity included $16+:scared1:

[salmoneous]

There would almost have to have been, especially in cost to profit ratio, as you now have to serve more meals to get the same actual profit.

For instance, if the average non-DDP entree cost Disney $4 to produce and they make $20 per entree at the table if folks just eat the entree, then adding the cost of beverage, appetizer and dessert for DDP cuts into that profit. Less profit per dollar spent, a lower profit to cost ratio. First, to be clear, we have no evidence that profits are lower, only speculation. Right?

Second, none of us know what profit measures Disney uses to evaluate the performance of its restaurants. We have no idea if Disney looks at a profit/dollar spent, profit/customer, profit/table, profit/assets, etc.

Third, as far as I know, we have no clue how internal accounting at Disney deals with the Dining Plan, do we? So how do we know what the profit / dollar spend (assuming Disney looks at such a ratio) compares between DDP and non-DDP customers.

[DBorges]

You leave out the one "unknown"

Are the resturants NOT owned by Disney losing money? And I think that may be one of the issues. Remember last year they signed the contracts very late in the process (as was evidenced by the fact that none of them were included in the initial "offical" information on the dining plan and that's not rumor it's fact) I think they may be pushing back and pushing back HARD on this. (I would if I was one of them.) They may or may NOT be covered by "Disney's volume" deals on food etc. Who knows how all that works? But if Disney isn't either paying them more or subsidizing thier costs then somethings got to give. They either find a way to make more money or drop out of DDP which dramatically reduces the options since I think it's about half of the Epcot resturants and most of the DTD resturants. If they drop out that puts a LOT of pressure on the remaining resturants to "fill the gap" making reservations even harder to get. (Resulting in people mad at Disney when they can't use the DDP) So Disney needs to keep them in and profitable. They can't be a "loss leader"

They don't care that the resorts and/or parks divisons are making money. That's not thier goal, thier goal is to make money for themselves!

(And here is the deal anything you hear from Virgin Supervisors, Disney CMs etc is not the "facts" Contrary to the DIS board view Disney executives don't tell bus drivers, CRO etc. thier plans. They KNOW those folks can't keep a secret. So unless Meg Croton sends you a personal message..... it's all rumor and fun to talk about.)


I DO NOT CARE about non DISNEY resturants ...:rotfl:

After all it is the "disney dinning plan" :banana:

As too your second part of this and" here is the deal " that is just a totaly misplaced committ I have been saying it is rumor for days and days but yet

You continue to throw things out llike get all the facts So I did that and yet you seem to say now that all rumor and unless meg who ever send me a personal message it is what I have said it was to the past # days A RUMOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1:dance3 :

Funny how now we agree it is only a rumor and there are no fact too prove it ..(humble pie for a few i think)

[keishashadow]

While I generally agree I am very concerned that the tip MUST be mandatory on DDP. I have followed the various DIS boards and spent too much time at Disney to have much faith in my fellow travelers. I can see this logic ALL to easily.... "DDP costs me $38. I figure they pay $25 of that for the TS meal 18% of of $25 is $4.50 so that's my tip"

Don't believe me. Read this board there is at least one poster who seems to be saying he/she doesn't tip as a high percentage at Disney because "meal are overpriced" So he/she "inflation" adjusts the tip? (Of course living in Orlando is also fairly costly from what I learned when I looked at a job down there, but that never comes up LOL!)

It is not fair for the servers to be "ripped off" because of this change.

I'm the first to champion decent wages for a fair day's work.

I'm told that tipping in other countries follows different practices, which is why many of the restaurants suggest the 'proper' tip - jik.:confused3 Perhaps it's a gentle reminder to us all.

while i champion fair salaries, again i do feel that the food @ WDW is expensive (as at most resorts/attractions) and that for medicore to average service, 18% is more than ample.

of course, if the server is professional or even is friendly and puts forth some extra effort; we increase the gratuity accordingly - because we want to and the server earned it:)

If the plan isn't profitable as is, would prefer a tiered system (base price, dessert add-on, appetizer add-on or the complete pkg.). Think a variation of the MYW pkg only applied to DP.

Do hope that whatever Disney decides it turns out to be the right thing, yet still keeping costs reasonable.

[DBorges]

I expect to pay a pricey markup for wine/liquor in a restaurant; esp. since we're used to it in in PA with our arcane state store system.:sad2:

IMO, $28 for a bottle of wine is a steal @ WDW

During our June trip, @ Ca Grill the tab for 1 glass of lowest priced chardonnay, tax & gratuity included $16+:scared1:

It was a half bottle too boot ouch it hurt to pay that:mad:

Well Like i have said before rumor is rumor and I do not care about not DISNEY resturants..

If I did I would eat at a burger joint !!!!!!


JIM HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[disneynutz]

True, but the privately owned places at EPCOT can't keep losing their profit. It may all go into the Mouse's pocket, but each division needs to show profit. Even a $3.00 beverage, if the syrup is free, would cost Disney $$ to give away. The cost of labor, the cost of water, and the cost of "location", debt service, taxes, payrool taxes...much, like your grocery store, there needs to be $X profit per square foot of food service area.

For instance, if a video store rents movies for $3, sells a coke for $1.95 that cost $.50 and makes $2 profit, then offers a special of a free coke with two rentals, it still loses profit on the transaction.

See, if the coke makes $1.45 per bottle profit, then the movie makes $.55. So renting two movies still gives less profit ($1.10) than the single movie and coke sale. Then add the $.50 cost to the store for the coke, then the profit is down to $.60...so even if the store rents 6 movies and gives away 2 cokes, they are still cutting their actual profit by 20 cents to $1.80.

Gross profit looks great, net profit still suffers.

Evidently there was not enough increase in restaurant volume to offset the loss in net profit in the food division.

What about the money made on DDP by reducing the menu and Guests that don't use the DDP to their fullest advantage. How many millions of of Guests use their TC to buy a $10 dollar meal. How many unused credits are there? Because they are credits, people don't think of them as money. It's like a Disney dollar. How many are sitting a home never to be used?

We were at BCV and went to B&C intending to use a CS credit for a hamburger at lunch. We waited in line and and finally got a table. When the CM came to take our order she informed us that they only accept TS credits. I made the comment as we left, "who in there right mind would use a TS credit to buy a $8 dollar hamburger"? Her reply was, "about a hundred people a day".

When I made our last ADRs the CM said to me, based upon your ADRs you must be on the DDP. I said yes, how did she know? She said she knew because we only booked at the most expensive restaurants. I said, "I bet you see this all the time". Her reply was, "not as much as you would think".

My point is, all sales programs are designed to make the seller money. If it doesn't they cancel the program and come up with another.

[Chuck S]

First, to be clear, we have no evidence that profits are lower, only speculation. Right?

Second, none of us know what profit measures Disney uses to evaluate the performance of its restaurants. We have no idea if Disney looks at a profit/dollar spent, profit/customer, profit/table, profit/assets, etc.

Third, as far as I know, we have no clue how internal accounting at Disney deals with the Dining Plan, do we? So how do we know what the profit / dollar spend (assuming Disney looks at such a ratio) compares between DDP and non-DDP customers.

I would be happy to address some of your items...

While we don't know what criteria Disney uses for profit (ratio, per table, per customer) all of those would be lower. They would logically HAVE to be, given the way the DDP works. Again, if the average guest spends $28 on an entrée that cost $4 to prepare, then the DDP comes along and includes gratuity, tax, dessert, appetizer and beverage for that $28, the ratio is down, the gross profit per customer is down (since prep/food costs per customer is up) and the profit per table is down...unless the tables are turning much faster...do you think it takes the same amount of "table time" to consume only an entrée as it does to consume an appetizer, entrée and dessert? Plus, when a cash customer does order appetizer and dessert, profit is increased (especially on dessert items, they are normally the least expensive for prep time and ingredients). The restaurant loses that "increased" profit on the DDP, and must make it up in volume...especially a non-Disney operated restaurant.

The exception may be profit per asset (ie how much return is generated per square foot of space)...but would this offset the increase in operational costs for food prep, including additional supplies, utilities, employees?

Even if it is break-even, why spend MORE to make the same amount? The answer could simply have been, as many suggest, to increase volume and introduce people to the TS restaurants, as well as filling up hotel rooms. But again, the privately operated eateries would not benefit from the added hotel room profits...and they may the ones pushing hard for change.

[CarolA]

It was a half bottle too boot ouch it hurt to pay that:mad:

Well Like i have said before rumor is rumor and I do not care about not DISNEY resturants..

If I did I would eat at a burger joint !!!!!!


JIM HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Do you understand that we are not talking about Mickey D's? People are currently using the DDP at "non Disney resturants"

This is half of the FULL SERVICE resturants in Epcot, all full service at DTD but Captain Jacks and all of the resturants in AK (Rainforest and Yak N Yeti)

If they drop out where do you plan to eat? Your options just went WAY down. You can eat at the resorts (except CSR, those resturants aren't managed by Disney) and at the remaining park resturants. So if the resturants are FULLY booked now (and they tend to be) and let say most of those folks are on the Dining plan. Take away large numbers of resturants and the ones that do accept the DDP are NOT going to be able to meet demand.

Even with EVERYONE participating last year during "Free Dining" Disney could not meet the demand and had to open "temporary buffets" for folks to use their meal credits.....

(Just out of curioisty where do you eat?)

[tjkraz]

It may all go into the Mouse's pocket, but each division needs to show profit.

Bingo.

I've seen this before in large companies. Incentives or promotions are created which are deemed to be "in the greater good." Most times the true benefit of the promotion is not evenly spread over all business units involved.

After a certain period of time, the inequality is forgotten. Higher-ups start pointing to the division that takes the greatest hit (in this case, dining) and wonder why it is floundering. Knee-jerk reactions ensue. Careers start hitting the skids.

Meanwhile the division that received the greatest benefit (resorts in this situation) is universally praised. Overall profitability is up. Business goals are exceeded. Promotions follow.

Just because TWDC is looking good as a whole doesn't mean that people quit looking at the detail.

Now, obviously there's no way of knowing if any of this is happening with the dining plan. Nothing wrong with speculating though, eh?

What we DO know are:

1. Meal profit margins are siginificantly lower under the DDP. We need no more evidence than the widespread reports of the hundreds of dollars people claim to "save" during their trip.

2. The rumor mill certainly indicates that the benefits of the DDP will be cut-back significantly in '08.

Is it as simple as A + B = C? Who knows. I doubt Disney will go into that much detail in their press release. ;) But it sure is fun to speculate, ain't it? popcorn::

[salmoneous]

They would logically HAVE to be, given the way the DDP works. Just to stop right here, we don't *know* how the plan works from an internal accounting stand point. So how can we possibly know how it does or doesn't affect profit ratios within the restaurants?

Again, if the average guest spends $28 on an entree that cost $4 to prepare, then the DDP comes along and includes gratuity, tax, dessert, appetizer and beverage for that $28,

Here you are making several assumptions. First, that the average guest spends $28. Then you are assuming that the restaurant is credited with $28 bucks from the DDP. We know neither of these things.

But in an even bigger picture, we don't even know there is a customer paying $28 off the dinning plan. It may be a comparison of somebody on the dinning plan vs an empty table.

[CarolA]

About a year ago I interviewed with Disney for an accounting job.

I can assure you that not only does each Park have "profit" goals it gets measured down to the "return" from the popcorn cart outside the MK....LOL! Disney has "expectations" of performance from ALL of them and the appropirate management is held accountable!

From an accounting point of view, Disney is recording "revenue" for the RETAIL price of the meal. (That's what on those 'receipts' everyone uses to show how much they "saved") Disney is suppose to be paying the servers 18% (at least at Disney owned resturants) on the retail. So.... your dinner at LeCellier cost $45. Tip was $8.10 So out of your $38.99 Disney has to PAY (Cash outflow) $8.10 to the server and around $2 to the various tax authorities (assuming around a 6.5% sales tax rate) That leaves $28.89 to cover your meal PLUS your snack PLUS your counter service meal. So even if ALL of the money goes to Le Cellier, they have a "write down" of about $17 on the meal. Trust me at some point someone looks at that $17 line item (multiplied a few zillion times) and goes WAIT, why would we give this away. And the problem with this accounting method is that the snack and counterservice meal were "zero" reimbursment (and we KNOW that's not true, it cost Disney SOMETHING to provide them. Even if Disney by some MIRACLE gets the food FREE the staff wants WAGES LOL!)

Someone mentioned the "unused" credits and I think that's probably a "profit" center for Disney. How much, who knows? However, once again those "non Disney owned" resturants aren't seeing that profit!

[salmoneous]

1. Meal profit margins are siginificantly lower under the DDP. We need no more evidence than the widespread reports of the hundreds of dollars people claim to "save" during their trip. Again, hate to be such a pain, we we don't know this at all. We don't even know how Disney measurs profit margins. People claim these $100's in savings because they compare what they paid to Disney vs numbers on a reciet showing that the *didn't* pay.

The amount people claim to save may or may not have anything to do with Disney's profit margins. Assume that, tomorrow, Disney doubled the prices on all their menus. The amount "saved" by folks on the DDP would skyrocket. But I doubt it would change Disney's profit margin for DDP diners.

[Sammie]

Disney is not in the business of loosing money. Their stock is up 17%. Last year saw record attendance. What does a $60 dollar meal actually cost Disney. We know that they get their Soft Drink syrup for free but I don't see them giving away free drinks. What other deals do the have in place for food items? One Disney unit may look on paper as if they are loosing money but the other units are making more than enough money to make up for it. As a Cast member told me, "it all comes back to the Mouse".

Just for clarifcation, they do not get their Cokes free, urban rumor.

[DBorges]

About a year ago I interviewed with Disney for an accounting job.

I can assure you that not only does each Park have "profit" goals it gets measured down to the "return" from the popcorn cart outside the MK....LOL! Disney has "expectations" of performance from ALL of them and the appropirate management is held accountable!

From an accounting point of view, Disney is recording "revenue" for the RETAIL price of the meal. (That's what on those 'receipts' everyone uses to show how much they "saved") Disney is suppose to be paying the servers 18% (at least at Disney owned resturants) on the retail. So.... your dinner at LeCellier cost $45. Tip was $8.10 So out of your $38.99 Disney has to PAY (Cash outflow) $8.10 to the server and around $2 to the various tax authorities (assuming around a 6.5% sales tax rate) That leaves $28.89 to cover your meal PLUS your snack PLUS your counter service meal. So even if ALL of the money goes to Le Cellier, they have a "write down" of about $17 on the meal. Trust me at some point someone looks at that $17 line item (multiplied a few zillion times) and goes WAIT, why would we give this away. And the problem with this accounting method is that the snack and counterservice meal were "zero" reimbursment (and we KNOW that's not true, it cost Disney SOMETHING to provide them. Even if Disney by some MIRACLE gets the food FREE the staff wants WAGES LOL!)

Someone mentioned the "unused" credits and I think that's probably a "profit" center for Disney. How much, who knows? However, once again those "non Disney owned" resturants aren't seeing that profit!

I interviewed with Disney for an accounting job. LOL

you never ordered food for a major food sevice situation

Disney buys stuff so cheap that it cost them peanuts (accounting term)

the ice cream for a snack cost them .02 cents

so everything they buy is in bulk and a lower cost

So there profits must be big!

You had a nice try but no cigar on this ..

They are making money left and right on ddp

[Sammie]

After all it is the "disney dinning plan"

Well actually it is the "Disney dining plan" ;)

[Chuck S]

Just to stop right here, we don't *know* how the plan works from an internal accounting stand point. So how can we possibly know how it does or doesn't affect profit ratios within the restaurants?



Here you are making several assumptions. First, that the average guest spends $28. Then you are assuming that the restaurant is credited with $28 bucks from the DDP. We know neither of these things.

But in an even bigger picture, we don't even know there is a customer paying $28 off the dinning plan. It may be a comparison of somebody on the dinning plan vs an empty table.

Let us talk about non-Disney owned restaurants, like Chefs du France at EPCOT.

The average dinner appetizer (including the less expensive soups) is $7.40
Average dinner entree is $24.35
Average non-alcoholic beverage $3.89
Desserts $6.95

For a total pre-tax and pre-gratuity dinner of $42.59

Tax adds $2.77. 15% tip (and it has been reported servers get 18% on the DDP, but I'll say 15% just in case) is $6.39

Bringing our total to $51.75. Even if Disney were to turn the entire $37.99 for the DDP over to Chefs (but remember that then Disney would get no $$ for the snack or Counter Service meal) that would still leave an average balance of $13.76 (or a 27% discount) that the restaurant has to cover. That is a 27% discount PER PATRON if they order an average dinner on the DDP.

If the "average" cash guest does not order a dinner entree, and orders only an appetizer, the table will turn faster, and perhaps the next cash guest will order an entree. Either way, both guests have paid full price, without a 27% discount.

Now, you could argue the point that not every DDP guests orders full meal, and that is true...but certainly from what we've seen discussed on the Restaurant boards indicates that about 80% do so. And the 27% discount is assuming that Disney turns 100% of their gross from the DDP over to the restaurant for that one meal...do you think that is true? I doubt it. If they deduct even $5 for the counter meal and snack, the restaurant then gets $32.99...or a 36% discount. Not many restaurants could survive a 36% drop in menu prices on a regular basis.

And we know that Disney isn't going to "give away" a CS meal and snack from the goodness of their corporate heart.

[CarolA]

I
you never ordered food for a major food sevice situation

Disney buys stuff so cheap that it cost them peanuts (accounting term)

the ice cream for a snack cost them .02 cents

so everything they buy is in bulk and a lower cost

So there profits must be big!

You had a nice try but no cigar on this ..

They are making money left and right on ddp

Maybe you should ASK what else I have done before you put your fingers on the keyboards.

I have been involved with purchasing "food" and supplies for a VERY LARGE company. Think LOTS AND LOTS of food. (take a LOT of hospitals and imagine the amount of FOOD they go thru...... LOTS AND LOTS!!!!) We bought in BULK (HUGE BULK!) I do have some idea of what margins you can expect to get. I have audited LOTS of those bills. (You also didn't ask what type of accounting job at Disney did you? hmm...you never know what else I might have learned!)

I am sorry, but... your prices aren't based in reality. :rotfl2: The only way your prices work is if they get the goverment suplus program and Disney doesn't qualify. (I purchased from that during my days as a camp administrator on college. Pennies... and some of the best cheese I have EVER HAD! I miss that stuff LOL!)

Contrary to your thoughts vendors don't have to "Give food" to Disney. Since most vendors get no real benefit from being a Disney vendor they have no motivation besides the value of the contract. If the contract gets too cheap , it would not be worth their time to keep it. (Vendors like Coke may use a different model as they do get the "association". Your local meat vendor... nah... I have seen the "vendor' trucks Disney uses. Those guys aren't losing money on these contracts....


DDP as used by the DVC members is NOT profitiable. As used by the average guest when combined with increased room revenue, DME etc. (all of which serve to keep you on site ) it may be. If you review the Annual Report you will notice that Disney CAREFULLY tracks averege spending per guest. (That's not a "guess" on Disney accounting, it's IN the report!) And in spite of the dining plan that has actually crept UP over the past few years. So it may be that Disney finds that while food is a "loss leader" the real truth is that between "cheap meals" and free transport the avg guest buys a LOT more "presents" or spends more on a hotel room.

[salmoneous]

Let us talk about non-Disney owned restaurants, like Chefs du France at EPCOT.

As a normal part of business, CdF has their own version of the DDP - a fixed price dinner for $30; a fixed price lunch for $18. Then we have to throw in a few bucks for drink and tip. Assuming Disney gives them something like $25-28 for each meal, my WAG (and that's all any of us have) is that Chefs takes in a could less bucks on average than they get off the plan *for each person that dines there.*

They have to balance that loss against the number of extra bodies that walk through the door due to the plan. During free dining, Chefs will be completely booked up every single day for both lunch and dinner. How busy would they be if it weren't for free dining? How do you balance the bucks the less in revenue they get per person due to the plan, with all the extra revenue they get because of the plan? It is a wash, loss, gain? None of us knows.

And, for all any of us knows, something we haven't even thought about might be the deciding factors. Restaurants make huge profits off alcohol. Do DDP, since they are getting their meals for free, tend to buy more drinks than non-DDP folks? Or, does the DDP bring in the "fanny-pack crowd" (not sure why I picked that term) that doesn't eat in places like Chefs and doesn't spend a lot on alcohol?

In the end, Chefs had a choice to be on the plan or not. After seeing how the plan affected them for 2 years, they choose to be on the plan again. That tells us something.

[G8RFAN]

I managed a restaurant during college what seems eons ago. The two things that gave me the most heartache was managing schedules and then managing staff. Notice the common link. We were in a highly seasonal market and staffing for weekends vs staffing for weekdays vs season vs offseason, vs who gets what day off was remarkably complex. The free Dining plan IMHO used to bring people in during the slow times. This helps manage staffing across the board. Ultimately it helps keep employees employed and HR sane. So while margins may be downwardly impacted because of the DDP at various participating locations, the HR impact has to be positive.

EDIT: what you may not see is that maybe there is a savings passed through in another form such as the revenue share that gets passed on to Disney (for those non-Disney operated locations) or some reduction to their fixed overhead charge or rent based on a formula of DDP headcount.

[salmoneous]

DDP as used by the DVC members is NOT profitiable. How do we know that? If it's not profitable, why is it allowed?

[JimMIA]

The information from Virgin is not incorrect, as to what affect that will have on the US plan is yet to be revealed. I would say US tour operators will get their info in a couple of weeks.

It is very possible that the plans will be different and while some think that would be a nightmare for servers, it will all be coded in the guest card just as if you were on a Silver or Gold plan where the options were different.
Hmmm. That's interesting.

Not what I would have thought...not my opinion -- but also, coming from Sammie, not something I would disregard.

My personal opinion is nobody cares what would be a nightmare for servers. They deal with all sorts of variations of payment plans for meals anyway, and I don't think they would have any trouble adjusting.

I just think it would be a marketing nightmare in the UK, which is a really important market for Disney. If I were from the UK, and I was coming to WDW for two weeks, and I found out I was getting 25-30% less than American customers paying less...I'd be wearing my Grumpy baseball jersey!

But then, I don't work for Disney, so what do I know.

[Chuck S]

As a normal part of business, CdF has their own version of the DDP - a fixed price dinner for $30; a fixed price lunch for $18. Then we have to throw in a few bucks for drink and tip. Assuming Disney gives them something like $25-28 for each meal, my WAG (and that's all any of us have) is that Chefs takes in a could less bucks on average than they get off the plan *for each person that dines there.*.

Actually, exactly not true. The DDP gives diners their choice if any entree, appetizer, dessert & beverage. Compares apples to oranges.

The full price of the individual menu items for the $30 special (including the least expensive appetizer, no beverage, and least expensive meat entree) is $36.85, it does not include tax and tip. An overall discount of just 19%

Using the highest price of each selection with the DDP gives a possible discount of 38.5%, if the restaurant were to get the entire $37.99 from Disney.

The French Menu lunch is a 23.4% discount.

[Sammie]

Hmmm. That's interesting.

Not what I would have thought...not my opinion -- but also, coming from Sammie, not something I would disregard.

My personal opinion is nobody cares what would be a nightmare for servers. They deal with all sorts of variations of payment plans for meals anyway, and I don't think they would have any trouble adjusting.

I just think it would be a marketing nightmare in the UK, which is a really important market for Disney. If I were from the UK, and I was coming to WDW for two weeks, and I found out I was getting 25-30% less than American customers paying less...I'd be wearing my Grumpy baseball jersey!

But then, I don't work for Disney, so what do I know.

It would only be a marketing nightmare for UK DISers, the rest will have no idea it is different. And that will be the majority.

I think you will see some changes also in the US plan.

[salmoneous]

Actually, exactly not true. The DDP gives diners their choice if any entree, appetizer, dessert & beverage. Compares apples to oranges. The only point I was trying to make is that Chefs seems happy with $30 and $18 for a entree, appetizer and desert. I don't think they are too unhappy with the $25-28 they get from Disney for a meal. If they were, they wouldn't have been part of the plan.

[CarolA]

Yes, but the Chef's de France "plat" is "chicken" not steak. (The higher priced appetizers, deserts and entrees are NOT included in thier discount deal) Plus they get ALL of the $18 or $30. They don't have to take the $18 or $30 and pay a server's tip and taxes.

I think the "non owned" resturants are getting something. Who knows? Maybe it's a "rent reduction" based on DDP diners? That actually makes sense since I BET that part of the "rent" is a "portion of the profits" so perhaps the DDP diners are not included in the "profits" as calucated for the rent? They would really have to get something extra since they don't share in the increased room/ticket/souviner revenue that Disney gets.

[tjkraz]

The amount people claim to save may or may not have anything to do with Disney's profit margins. Assume that, tomorrow, Disney doubled the prices on all their menus. The amount "saved" by folks on the DDP would skyrocket. But I doubt it would change Disney's profit margin for DDP diners.

No, but that's not an honest comparison either. The meaningful comparison is pre-DDP (2004 and before) to post-DDP (2005 to present) profitability.

Revenues (dollars coming in) may well have increased with the DDP, assuming that more people are eating in Disney restaurants. But profitability (revenue less expense) has almost certainly gone down as evidenced by the "savings" reported by many.

Disney, as a whole, is probably doing just fine with the DDP in the form of increased resort occupancy and increased nightly room revenue (since rack rates are a necessity for the DDP.) Whether they are willing to let the dining unit continue to suffer as a result is open to debate.

[tjkraz]

The only point I was trying to make is that Chefs seems happy with $30 and $18 for a entree, appetizer and desert. I don't think they are too unhappy with the $25-28 they get from Disney for a meal. If they were, they wouldn't have been part of the plan.

But do you KNOW whether they are happy or not? (Hey, two can play at this game. ;) )

I think it's a sort of "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation for the independently-owned restaurants. If they don't sign on to the DDP, they lose the DDP participants' business for a year. While they probably don't lose money on the DDP, again the profit margin is much lower when you must provide $50 worth of food, beverage and service for revenue of $25-28 (as compared to providing $50 worth of food, beverage and service and receiving $50.)

Many of the DTD restaurants opted-out of the DDP, the difference being that DTD is not a gated community. It doesn't rely on the ticket-buying public as its only customers.

The in-park restaurants may not be crazy about the terms Disney is offering, but if that traffic is the difference between turning a profit and not turning a profit, the decision is reluctantly made.

[CarolA]

Wonder if the DDP had anything to do with the change in management of the Italy Resturant. Disney did not take it over, so it's not like they wanted to run it themselves? We will probably never know.

[DBorges]

Maybe you should ASK what else I have done before you put your fingers on the keyboards.

I have been involved with purchasing "food" and supplies for a VERY LARGE company. Think LOTS AND LOTS of food. (take a LOT of hospitals and imagine the amount of FOOD they go thru...... LOTS AND LOTS!!!!) We bought in BULK (HUGE BULK!) I do have some idea of what margins you can expect to get. I have audited LOTS of those bills. (You also didn't ask what type of accounting job at Disney did you? hmm...you never know what else I might have learned!)

I am sorry, but... your prices aren't based in reality. :rotfl2: The only way your prices work is if they get the goverment suplus program and Disney doesn't qualify. (I purchased from that during my days as a camp administrator on college. Pennies... and some of the best cheese I have EVER HAD! I miss that stuff LOL!)

Contrary to your thoughts vendors don't have to "Give food" to Disney. Since most vendors get no real benefit from being a Disney vendor they have no motivation besides the value of the contract. If the contract gets too cheap , it would not be worth their time to keep it. (Vendors like Coke may use a different model as they do get the "association". Your local meat vendor... nah... I have seen the "vendor' trucks Disney uses. Those guys aren't losing money on these contracts....


DDP as used by the DVC members is NOT profitiable. As used by the average guest when combined with increased room revenue, DME etc. (all of which serve to keep you on site ) it may be. If you review the Annual Report you will notice that Disney CAREFULLY tracks averege spending per guest. (That's not a "guess" on Disney accounting, it's IN the report!) And in spite of the dining plan that has actually crept UP over the past few years. So it may be that Disney finds that while food is a "loss leader" the real truth is that between "cheap meals" and free transport the avg guest buys a LOT more "presents" or spends more on a hotel room.

I will put my finger on the keyboard when I like thanks.

Ordering food for a large institution or physical plant is the same no matter who you buy for as long as it is not a prison of a foos pantry . As for the bulk of food stuffs and Ice cream and soda that disney uses I am sure they pay less then markert value and buy such a lagre amount that the distributor DO make money.

Just a case in point the booze at diseny is makered up 50-75 % .

A peice of beef that disney buys would cost them alot less then anyone else due to volume that is simple.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder of knowing all.

Use common sence and realy think about it " I have seen the "vendor' trucks Disney uses. " that proves nothing again you do not have the knowlegde of what that contract is your only guessing (RUMOR)

Like I have said and will say again RUMOR IS RUMOR

[DBorges]

Wonder if the DDP had anything to do with the change in management of the Italy Resturant. Disney did not take it over, so it's not like they wanted to run it themselves? We will probably never know.


Patina Restaurant Group Assumes Italy Pavilion Restaurant

Several weeks ago, it was announced that L'Originale Alfredo di Roma Ristorante in the Italy pavilion in Epcot's World Showcase would be closing August 31, 2007. The Patina Restaurant Group has been named as the operating participant for the restaurant beginning September 1. The Patina Group was one of the original operating participants at the Disneyland Resort's Downtown Disney district.

"We are proud of our long-term relationship with the Walt Disney Comapny and are gratified to see it grow, " said Nick Valenti, president and CEO, Patina Restaurant Group. "Disney is a name synonymous with quality and creativity -- two characteristics that we strive to emulate," added Joachim Splichal, chef and founder of the Patina Group. "We look forward to developing a truly outstanding restaurant for the visitors to Epcot."

"The World Showcase at Epcot was designed to continually evolve and offer new guest experiences that showcase cultures, traditions and immersive entertainment," said Maribeth Bisienere, vice president, Alliance Development and Operating Participants, Walt Disney World Resort. "With the Patina Restaurants Group coming on board, our guests will have the best of both worlds -- gourmet cuisine and first-class services. We're very excited to have an industry leader like the Patina Restaurant Group operating the Italy pavilion restaurant."

The Patina Restaurant Group is the nation's leading multi-concept operation in the premium segments of the restaurant and food service industry. In New York City its portfolio includes the world-famous Ice Rink and The Sea Grill at Rockefeller Center; the Brasserie; and the Grand Tier at the Metropolitan Opera House. On the West Coast, the portfolio includes the renowned Patina Restaurant in Walt Disney Concert Hall; Nick and Stef's Steakhouse; Catal and three other restaurants in the Anaheim Disneyland Resorts Downtown Disney District; Leatherby's Cafe Rouge at the Orange County Performing Arts Center; Julia's Kitchen at COPIA in Napa; Pinot Brasserie in Las Vegas; and catering and food service in museums and cultural centers throughout Southern California.

I think it was just time for a change.. But lets start a RUMOR:thumbsup2

The old group went bankrupt due to the ddp used by dvc members..:rotfl:

[BCV23]

Wonder if the DDP had anything to do with the change in management of the Italy Resturant. Disney did not take it over, so it's not like they wanted to run it themselves? We will probably never know.

At the time the news was released, someone posted a link to an article in which the company that runs Alfredo's expressed surprise that the contract would not be renewed.

[Chuck S]

As this thread has clearly veered away from the DDP and its relative effect on DVC, it no longer meets the criteria for the DVC boards. The original topic was, basically, "If the rumors of the changes are true, will the DDP still be of value to DVCers."

It will need to return to a DVC related discussion, or I will have to close it under the DVC Board posting guidelines.

[Muushka]

"If the rumors of the changes are true, will the DDP still be of value to DVCers."


Not for this DVC member!

[Anthony1971]

Wonder if the DDP had anything to do with the change in management of the Italy Resturant. Disney did not take it over, so it's not like they wanted to run it themselves? We will probably never know.

Part of this may also have to do with Disney demanding all or most of the EPCOT Restuarnats remodel.

Reading this thread again... I remember when Disney offered a Plan for 50 and it was basically a credit for 55 (my numbers may be off a little but it was 50 or 55 a day). At this time they awere also offering room discounts or package discounts. To get the DDP now you need to stay at rack rate so there is a balance here but now it would seem that the food is bearing the burden. As far as DVC getting this plan they are loosing money.... But there is a payoff and that is getting people use to eating in the restuarants and DVC was not designed as such....
Dinsey itself is based on memories and for most cooking itself on vacation is something that most do not want to remember the outcome may be memorable...... But now you have the same outcome eating out...
A Better question is how many would change thier Dinning habits if DVC did away with DDP or it was unaffordable. I am sure there are a large number of DVC and cash guests that have discovered a place they would have not dinned at in the past and now looks forward to dinning at while at Disney. I think Disney is going to profit in the near future with this one for cash and DVC guests alike.

[Anthony1971]

"If the rumors of the changes are true, will the DDP still be of value to DVCers."


Not for this DVC member!

But will you eat in a resturanat you would have not normally while at Disney? Also think if anyone in your family will want to and you will accommadate

[DBorges]

Part of this may also have to do with Disney demanding all or most of the EPCOT Restuarnats remodel.

Reading this thread again... I remember when Disney offered a Plan for 50 and it was basically a credit for 55 (my numbers may be off a little but it was 50 or 55 a day). At this time they awere also offering room discounts or package discounts. To get the DDP now you need to stay at rack rate so there is a balance here but now it would seem that the food is bearing the burden. As far as DVC getting this plan they are loosing money.... But there is a payoff and that is getting people use to eating in the restuarants and DVC was not designed as such....
Dinsey itself is based on memories and for most cooking itself on vacation is something that most do not want to remember the outcome may be memorable...... But now you have the same outcome eating out...
A Better question is how many would change thier Dinning habits if DVC did away with DDP or it was unaffordable. I am sure there are a large number of DVC and cash guests that have discovered a place they would have not dinned at in the past and now looks forward to dinning at while at Disney. I think Disney is going to profit in the near future with this one for cash and DVC guests alike.

Once again the plan being changed is a RUMOR but if it did change I think it would not change my using it.

I have found my Disney Food Nitch and no where I like and Dislike I would not change my dining habits at all if I had to pay for it and not use the ddp.

I feel that vacation is too have a good time and relax and if that means spending money I am not afraid to do it.

This whole topic was to be About a rumor but it seems that some people here can not see that is just that a rumor .

Like all mass Confusion the point of the post gets twisted to suit the needs of the people posting. So Back to the subject at hand it is a Rumor.

We all will find out soon enough the release date is RUMORED to be Aug 14th 2008.

Someone else was nice enough to point out the same thing happened last year and was fueled by the same people.

I am afraid that some take things to heart way too much here but Knowledge is power is some peoples mind even if the knowledge is RUMOR.


I have been following this post for days done more reseach then most and it is still a Rumor.

So in closing folks lets sit back and wait to see what happens. If i get mud in my face then I will be man enough to admit it . But common sence says it will remain the same with a slight price increase

[Anthony1971]

Once again the plan being changed is a RUMOR but if it did change I think it would not change my using it.

I have found my Disney Food Nitch and no where I like and Dislike I would not change my dining habits at all if I had to pay for it and not use the ddp.

I feel that vacation is too have a good time and relax and if that means spending money I am not afraid to do it.

This whole topic was to be About a rumor but it seems that some people here can not see that is just that a rumor .

Like all mass Confusion the point of the post gets twisted to suit the needs of the people posting. So Back to the subject at hand it is a Rumor.

We all will find out soon enough the release date is RUMORED to be Aug 14th 2008.

Someone else was nice enough to point out the same thing happened last year and was fueled by the same people.

I am afraid that some take things to heart way too much here but Knowledge is power is some peoples mind even if the knowledge is RUMOR.


I have been following this post for days done more reseach then most and it is still a Rumor.

So in closing folks lets sit back and wait to see what happens. If i get mud in my face then I will be man enough to admit it . But common sence says it will remain the same with a slight price increase

We all KNOW that it is a rumor but to debate weather or not something is or is not has no point however further in the original post it asks if one would still use the DDP and a further implication would be eating out in general and that is what we are discussing.
There are many DVCers that do not eat out every night or most nights as proven by the small resturanst at the large DVC resorts and the now very affordable DDP shines a new light on vacation habits.

[fishermouse]

While I generally agree I am very concerned that the tip MUST be mandatory on DDP. I have followed the various DIS boards and spent too much time at Disney to have much faith in my fellow travelers. I can see this logic ALL to easily.... "DDP costs me $38. I figure they pay $25 of that for the TS meal 18% of of $25 is $4.50 so that's my tip"

Don't believe me. Read this board there is at least one poster who seems to be saying he/she doesn't tip as a high percentage at Disney because "meals are overpriced" So he/she "inflation" adjusts the tip? (Of course living in Orlando is also fairly costly from what I learned when I looked at a job down there, but that never comes up LOL!)


I once was in the Rose and Crown and heard someone say "you don't need to tip, you don't tip in Pubs in England" Well that may be true, but this pub is NOT in England....:rotfl2:

It is not fair for the servers to be "ripped off" because of this change.
Everything you say is true but I still don't like being chaarged a fee to pay the tip. Every server no matter where they work gets good tips and bad tips, hopefully in the end it balances out. If you work where foreign customers frequent you will get lower tips, they don't tip as well as most Americans. Americans are the most genreous people in the world as proven by all studies taken, in tips and charity. Tip included billing is widely used in Europ so often they don't tip. As far as not tipping in pubs go back to a bar after you slighted the bar tender and see how good your drinks are. Here they are probably the highest tipped servers % wise.
So far I have not used DDP so I'm really not affected just adding my two cents because as many of us know most servers rely on tips for a living and IMO they are better served getting tips directly from the customer. I still believe most people will tip on the value of the meal if it's not mandatory. As is what exactly are they getting 18% of, it can't be the cost of the DDP because that includes tax, cs, snack and the tip. Just wondering what value they place on the TS. Plus since drinks are not included how many people are giving the extra to cover the cost of drinks? Your $25. assumtion may or may not be correct, by the way I would give atleast $5.00 on that $25. Maybe if they gave them 18% of the average bill per person it would be fair but most likely they are not making out very well. You can tell by how happy they are when you say your a cash customer. I also usually tip in cash regardless of how I pay the bill.

[JimMIA]

As this thread has clearly veered away from the DDP and its relative effect on DVC, it no longer meets the criteria for the DVC boards. The original topic was, basically, "If the rumors of the changes are true, will the DDP still be of value to DVCers."

It will need to return to a DVC related discussion, or I will have to close it under the DVC Board posting guidelines.With regard to the original topic of the thread, I think the answer remains: "It depends."

If the changes occur, DVCers will once again do a rational cost/benefit comparison and make appropriate decisions for their families. As it always has, the value of DDP will vary from family to family depending on their family composition and normal dining habits.

My hunch is that for couples, families whose children are all >10, and even families like us (2 adults and a 5 y/o), DDP will no longer be a good deal. However, families with multiple kids under 10 may still find it great. Not as great as it was, but still worthwhile.

For my family, a DDP which does not include gratuity doesn't meet our needs, so we would not use it. If we don't use DDP, we have a range of options. Our best option (we always have a car) would be to eat virtually all of our meals offsite. There are many good restaurants in the Orlando area which offer better food at lower prices than the WDW restaurants.

The only time we would eat onsite would probably be one character meal each trip. (We have been eating CS meals on DDP, but our previous pattern was not eating lunch in the parks, so we would go back to that.)

The other change we would make would be to venture out to other Orlando attractions. I've been resisting trips to Universal and Sea World because of DDP, but without it, we would visit those. In fact, our next trip, we'd probably just hit MK and Epcot one day each and spend the rest of our time at other attractions.

We would also look at whatever deals were available, and if it was advantageous, we might stay offsite on Fri/Sat and then only spend 2-3 days at DVC and save our points for Vero or other options. Currently, we usually stay entirely at DVC Sun-Thurs, but switching to an offsite night or two would save my DW some vacation time on each trip.

So everybody's options will be different. For us, the changes in DDP will be a loss on one hand, but several opportunities on the other.

[pilferk]

Once again the plan being changed is a RUMOR but if it did change I think it would not change my using it.

I have found my Disney Food Nitch and no where I like and Dislike I would not change my dining habits at all if I had to pay for it and not use the ddp.

I feel that vacation is too have a good time and relax and if that means spending money I am not afraid to do it.

This whole topic was to be About a rumor but it seems that some people here can not see that is just that a rumor .

Like all mass Confusion the point of the post gets twisted to suit the needs of the people posting. So Back to the subject at hand it is a Rumor.

We all will find out soon enough the release date is RUMORED to be Aug 14th 2008.

Someone else was nice enough to point out the same thing happened last year and was fueled by the same people.

I am afraid that some take things to heart way too much here but Knowledge is power is some peoples mind even if the knowledge is RUMOR.


I have been following this post for days done more reseach then most and it is still a Rumor.

So in closing folks lets sit back and wait to see what happens. If i get mud in my face then I will be man enough to admit it . But common sence says it will remain the same with a slight price increase

Isn't the title of the thread:

"DDP Rumor and affect on DVC Member Perceived Value"?

I think it's aptly labeled as rumor in the title.

The question being: IF the rumors are true, would it have an effect on DVC members perceived value of the plan.

In other words: Please speculate.

If you don't want to engage in that speculation.....why post?

My humble opinion:

IF the changes listed on the Virgin web site are, in fact, made part of the US plan.....it will largely depend on the trip for us.

This next trip...a LOT of buffets on our ADR's. In that case, the DDP retains most of the same value, with the tip being an "extra". We'd keep it.

Next trip there will be more sit down TS style places on our ADR list. For that trip, I'd be much more likely to pay OOP for at least SOME stuff (maybe in conjunction with DDP, maybe with DDE instead). I'd have to work the numbers.

IF the rumors are true, I see a pretty drastic reduction in value, but I think there might still be some there. It wouldn't be a GREAT deal anymore.....an almost no brainer for many many folks. It would require a more situational approach when deciding if the plan was right for you, I think.

[DBorges]

Isn't the title of the thread:

"DDP Rumor and affect on DVC Member Perceived Value"?

I think it's aptly labeled as rumor in the title.

The question being: IF the rumors are true, would it have an effect on DVC members perceived value of the plan.

In other words: Please speculate.

If you don't want to engage in that speculation.....why post?

My humble opinion:

IF the changes listed on the Virgin web site are, in fact, made part of the US plan.....it will largely depend on the trip for us.

This next trip...a LOT of buffets on our ADR's. In that case, the DDP retains most of the same value, with the tip being an "extra". We'd keep it.

Next trip there will be more sit down TS style places on our ADR list. For that trip, I'd be much more likely to pay OOP for at least SOME stuff (maybe in conjunction with DDP, maybe with DDE instead). I'd have to work the numbers.

IF the rumors are true, I see a pretty drastic reduction in value, but I think there might still be some there. It wouldn't be a GREAT deal anymore.....an almost no brainer for many many folks. It would require a more situational approach when deciding if the plan was right for you, I think.


First off I did post because the posing was here to talk about but when ever my opinion was said it got slambed to I did reseach (which no one else did)

I also have come to the conclusion that it is not going to change look at history.

Second there are a select few here whom think that they have the inside scoop all the time and normal fall just a little short.

I have said all along that it was a rumor but if it did happen (which it will not ) I would still use it .

Like others here I always Have a car when I am on property So if I had to drive to somewhere I would.

This whole cost thing is so far off and that is what changed the tune of the post ..


Perceived Value or not it is still going to save money for most ..

Hell if I could eat a good meal a a disney location and only have to pay the tip count me in..

125.oo x 20% hmm 25.00 pluss my booze that is still cheap.

Now with this said all the accountants here will make some mathamatical responce showing how it cost more for disney to make the meal then I paid for it..

The mark up on the food and beverages at disney is bigger then we all think.

The buying power Of disney would make any chain look like a bug ..

So does it make sence to change this no

The other thing is most of the poeple use this have to get park admission just to eat(more money)

We:rotfl: do save with the dinning plan as do many but Disney is still getting a profit.:rotfl:

So in my humble opinion if it is not broken do not fix it>>

[Chuck S]

Interesting...

What "research" supports these "opinions" that you seem to put forth as facts?


I have said all along that it was a rumor but if it did happen (which ist will not ) I would still use it .

The mark up on the food and beverages at disney is bigger then we all think.



Unless you work for Disney, you have NO WAY of knowing this at all...it is just as much speculation for you as it is for anyone else

The other thiong is most of the poeple use this have to get park admission just to eat(more money)

Are you actually suggesting that people that stay at a Disney resort would NOT buy park tickets, unless the DDP were available? I'd really like to see your research in that. :rotfl:

Until then, everyone elses opinion is every bit as valid as your opinion.

[DBorges]

Chuck I am saying that if you we too eat with the ddp and wanted to eat in a park you need admission..


Then if you buy 10 lbs of meat froma hole sale person . it would cost 8.50 but if you were to buy 1000000lbs of beef it would cost from the same person 4.00 this happens all over the country .

They make there money and profit on volume ...

Yes we all have our onwn point of view yes . And this is my point

Reaseach Ok I have done three days of it now on this topic and also looked into the Whole virgin thing..

the only thing that can be proven is that virgin did make a contract to limit the ddp (but Disney ddp or central resvation have no knowlegde of this)

Disneys contract with a vendor ( for TRAVEL)is not typicaly what they do with eveyone.

If I have offend anyone hey I am sorry it must be my conflictive nature.

But some of the really far fetched things in this post ??

Any how I will wait for the plan to be released then we can start a post How the rumors were wrong AGAIN



.

[pilferk]

Perceived Value or not it is still going to save money for most ..

Hell if I could eat a good meal a a disney location and only have to pay the tip count me in..

125.oo x 20% hmm 25.00 pluss my booze that is still cheap.



Except, well, in the context of DVC, you're not likely just paying for the tip and booze. We're not eligible for free dining, so you're also paying whatever the cost of the DDP is. You might be paying it PRIOR to your meal, but you're still paying it.

So, taking into account what I'd pay at a TS OOP + app + tip vs what I'd pay for the DDP + apps + tip...now the total is getting closer and closer and the choices without the DDP seem to be getting larger and larger. We're not the "everybody gets an app and desert" kinda family...we get one or two for the table, and share (even were we on the DDP).

Here, let me demonstrate:

DDP without tip and app (but 2 apps for the table)...assuming same cost this year as last year, at Kona Cafe (a modestly priced TS):

Sticky wings: 7.99+ tx = 8.95
Pot Stickers: 6.99+ tx = 7.83
DDP x 2 adults = 77.98
DDP x 2 kids = 21.98
Entre/dessert costs would be about 69.98 so tip would be around $17

So, my cash outlay for that days' DDP (including a CS and snack) + TS app + TS tip would be about $134.

With the current plan, my TOTAL cash outlay for the same thing would be 99.96.

If I were to pay OOP, with DDE:

Same as above, less 20% discount on total (but not tax and tip) = 96.17.

CS meals for the day (using Cosmic Rays for prices): 32.21 with tax

Snacks for the day: $12

Total for the day is about $141.

So yes...I'm now saving about $7...,$15 if you want to amortize the cost of the DDE over our 7 day trip. Add a couple adult beverages, and the accompanying 20% discount on the DDE, each night (one for me, one for my wife) and that savings quickly dwindles. If the DDP price increases...again, the savings dwindels.

That's the way we would likely use the plan. Is there value in that? Sure there is, but compared to the value in it NOW, it's quite a bit less. It means, IF the rumors are true, we'd have to analyze which way to go trip by trip.

[Chuck S]

Chuck I am saying that if you we too eat with the ddp and wanted to eat in a park you need admission..
Not true, you can eat at the resorts without park admission. And DVC does NOT require the purchase of a park ticket to be eligible for the DDP. On the other hand, if you want to dine at Chefs or LeCellier, park admission is required whether you have the DDP or not. I doubt most folks buy park admission for the sole purpose of dining in a park.


Then if you buy 10 lbs of meat froma hole sale person . it would cost 8.50 but if you were to buy 1000000lbs of beef it would cost from the same person 4.00 this happens all over the country . Sure, and for almost every type of product...but for any restaurant the actual cost of food is probably the lowest overall expense. Employee cost, taxes, rent/location and utilities are pretty much a set cost, and additional volume also increases those costs.

They make there money and profit on volume ... Only if the additional volume is sufficient to offset the additional expenses and loss of some profit on the individual meals.


Reaseach Ok I have done three days of it now on this topic and also looked into the Whole virgin thing..

Disneys contract with a vendor is not typicaly what they do with eveyone.

.

And again, no one in this thread has said it is ANYTHING but rumor, no one has said it is a done deal.

[DBorges]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBorges
Chuck I am saying that if you we too eat with the ddp and wanted to eat in a park you need admission..

Not true, you can eat at the resorts without park admission. And DVC does NOT require the purchase of a park ticket to be eligible for the DDP. On the other hand, if you want to dine at Chefs or LeCellier, park admission is required whether you have the DDP or not. I doubt most folks buy park admission for the sole purpose of dining in a park.

RE READ THAT

If you have the DDP and want to eat in a PARK you need admission (this is true)

I did not say if you wanted to eat at a resort or downtown disny you needed park admission


You also said "They make there money and profit on volume ...

Only if the additional volume is sufficient to offset the additional expenses and loss of some profit on the individual meals."


If the said volume for a hour is say 20 people .. But that same volume doubles because you have more people there as a result of the ddp

How does it cost more to have the same staff work the same hours for the same wages and do twice the work..

It means more profit no matter how you look at it more volume in the same time = more profit for less cost

[pilferk]

How does it cost more to have the same staff work the same hours for the same wages and do twice the work..

It means more profit no matter how you look at it more volume in the same time = more profit for less cost

You can't cover 2x the volume with the same staff it takes to run x volume, unless x is, orignally, a VERY low number and you're overstaffed for that volume. You might be able to economize somewhat, but not THAT much. You just can't. That's why "normal" places staff up on Friday and Saturday nights.....it's when they do the most volume. If you tried to economize on that scale, you'd have bedlam from a service (and guest satisfation) standpoint.

Staffing patterns are something very near and dear to my heart, professionally. If I could get away with doing what you're suggesting, we'd just eliminate 1/2 our staff. But it just doesn't work quite that neatly. First, because there's only so much your staff can do and not have your customers suffer, and second because capacity is capacity.

Now, to be sure, there'd be SOME economy of scale (you wouldn't, likely, need double the total staff to handle double the customers). The question is (and nobody knows the answer to this...or no one who's going to talk about it anyway) does that economy of scale pay "enough" dividends to offset the discount. Both sides are going to have good arguments to support their POV....neither side is going to have much in the way of hard line proof.

[DBorges]

You can't cover 2x the volume with the same staff it takes to run x volume, unless x is, orignally, a VERY low number and you're overstaffed for that volume. You might be able to economize somewhat, but not THAT much. You just can't. That's why "normal" places staff up on Friday and Saturday nights.....it's when they do the most volume. If you tried to economize on that scale, you'd have bedlam from a service (and guest satisfation) standpoint.

Staffing patterns are something very near and dear to my heart, professionally. If I could get away with doing what you're suggesting, we'd just eliminate 1/2 our staff. But it just doesn't work quite that neatly. First, because there's only so much your staff can do and not have your customers suffer, and second because capacity is capacity.

Now, to be sure, there'd be SOME economy of scale (you wouldn't, likely, need double the total staff to handle double the customers). The question is (and nobody knows the answer to this...or no one who's going to talk about it anyway) does that economy of scale pay "enough" dividends to offset the discount. Both sides are going to have good arguments to support their POV....neither side is going to have much in the way of hard line proof.


Just well said.:banana:

[Chuck S]

If you have the DDP and want to eat in a PARK you need admission (this is true)

I did not say if you wanted to eat at a resort or downtown disny you needed park admission But the point is, the same is true whether you have the DDP or not. It is your theory that the DDP increases park ticket sales. But again, this is only true if people buy the park ticket for the SOLE purpose of entering the park to dine.


You also said "They make there money and profit on volume ...

Only if the additional volume is sufficient to offset the additional expenses and loss of some profit on the individual meals."


If the said volume for a hour is say 20 people .. But that same volume doubles because you have more people there as a result of the ddp

How does it cost more to have the same staff work the same hours for the same wages and do twice the work..

It means more profit no matter how you look at it more volume in the same time = more profit for less cost

It is very unlikely that the DDP has actually doubled the volume throughout the year, isn't it? Except, perhaps, during the FREE dining promo. And if a restaurant did double their output, they would definately need additional employees...no way any business can double their product output without addtional personnel and other costs.

[hansel1]

Actually, when the first brochure went to press, a bunch of newbies panicked and started a bunch of threads freaking out because a LOT of restaurants were not in the brochure. Other people were counseling those folks to just relax, because the lineup would be the same. And sure enough, those wise souls were right.

Those wise souls from last year are the same people who are saying the rumors are right this year.

Technically the first brochure never went to press, it was instead put up on disney's website because they knew the other restuarants would sign agreements.

It was more than just newbies who were concerned and started rumors that non-disney owned restaurants WOULD NOT be included for 2007.

Those "wise souls" you mentioned were few and far between, as I was one of them.

Now, you have less than a handful of people (who enjoy trying to scoop others) claiming that rumors are more than that. And they are not the same "wise souls" from last year. This whole DDP rumor was started by DISserver.

As I mentioned before, once a rumor gets heard enough it becomes fact to most people. Then those people pronounce to other readers that they heard from a reliable source, etc., etc. . Not only do those people post threads here on the disboards, but they then branch out to other boards with NEWS about the changes for DDP.

I believe that the UK folks have been given information from their TAs. I don't believe that the information they were given could be related to DISNEY's official word on the matter for 2008 DDP. Virgin (as I've have only read here ) states that the RESORT gave them the information. Which resort is that?

It would be outright ridiculous for Disney to give anyone information 2 weeks ahead of their own official announcement. I believe that UK visitors are important to disney, but not any more or less important than any other visitor. As for UK visitors booking their vacations so far ahead, many US visitors do as well. I continually booked rooms a year and a half out before I bought into DVC.

[pilferk]

I believe that the UK folks have been given information from their TAs. I don't believe that the information they were given could be related to DISNEY's official word on the matter for 2008 DDP. Virgin (as I've have only read here ) states that the RESORT gave them the information. Which resort is that?


I don't know one way or the other (thought it would be just as out of character for Virgin to "announce" something they didnt' get directly from their vendor via the contracts they've signed), but I CAN speak to the particular point above.

The Walt Disney World Resort is a common reference to the entire complex, even used in some of Disney's official filings at times. I can certainly see Virgin using the "the resort" reference in that context. I realize each hotel refers to itself as a resort, too, but I don't think that's the reference Virgin is using.

[DBorges]

Technically the first brochure never went to press, it was instead put up on disney's website because they knew the other restuarants would sign agreements.

It was more than just newbies who were concerned and started rumors that non-disney owned restaurants WOULD NOT be included for 2007.

Those "wise souls" you mentioned were few and far between, as I was one of them.

Now, you have less than a handful of people (who enjoy trying to scoop others) claiming that rumors are more than that. And they are not the same "wise souls" from last year. This whole DDP rumor was started by DISserver.

As I mentioned before, once a rumor gets heard enough it becomes fact to most people. Then those people pronounce to other readers that they heard from a reliable source, etc., etc. . Not only do those people post threads here on the disboards, but they then branch out to other boards with NEWS about the changes for DDP.

I believe that the UK folks have been given information from their TAs. I don't believe that the information they were given could be related to DISNEY's official word on the matter for 2008 DDP. Virgin (as I've have only read here ) states that the RESORT gave them the information. Which resort is that?

It would be outright ridiculous for Disney to give anyone information 2 weeks ahead of their own official announcement. I believe that UK visitors are important to disney, but not any more or less important than any other visitor. As for UK visitors booking their vacations so far ahead, many US visitors do as well. I continually booked rooms a year and a half out before I bought into DVC.

This is everything I have said and more.

"{It would be outright ridiculous for Disney to give anyone information 2 weeks ahead of their own official announcement.}"

I have said this as well but then i get pointed to Virgin site and told I am full of pooh>(not in so many words)

So it be wriiten so it be done.!!!!!

ANd it is not written anywhere that i care about..

[patsal]

As far as percieived value, if these are the changes here are my plans for April 2008--Resort day, Sea World Day, Resort Day, and Possible US/IOA days, as well as eating at all the places we used to go off site prior to DDP. DDP kept me captive at WDW now I won't need to even get park passes at all for this short vacation.

[salmoneous]

DDP kept me captive at WDW now I won't need to even get park passes at all for this short vacation. Interesting point. It could work the way ME does - something that cost Disney money, saves the customer money, but in the long run is good for everyone.

[Chuck S]

Once again, this thread has gone off topic. We are NOT discussing whether it is a Rumor or not, that fact was established in the topic line of this thread DDP Rumor and affect on DVC Member Perceived Value

No one in this thread has stated otherwise, nor debated otherwise. The Rumor aspect is moot for the purposes of this discussion.

Return to topic.

[CarolA]

You know one of the sources for the rumor is the Virgin update. Folks on here think that "Virgin" misunderstood something Disney "told them"

Yesterday I got my information on the Founder's Tapestry from Disney. (for the AKV purchase) It's a cardboard tri fold document with TWO pages of the three taken up with "legalese" and "disclaimers" (ie if they spell your name wrong you can't sue) I just started laughing that anyone thinks Disney would "communicate" with thier vendors "informally" if this is the LEVEL of "legal hoops" they go thru to GIVE something away!!!!

[salmoneous]

I just started laughing that anyone thinks Disney would "communicate" with thier vendors "informally" if this is the LEVEL of "legal hoops" they go thru to GIVE something away!!!! You miss the point. It isn't that Disney officially communicated something to Virgin that Virgin misunderstood. It's the possibility that somebody who works for Disney informally communicated something to Virgin. People who work for Disney informally pass along bad information every single day, do they not?