why $10 per point?

[Peterd]

I was first going to answer the post about the rent to DVC members first at the $8 per point price, and began wondering WHO would rent for $8 per point? We have plenty of points, don't NEED to rent from or to anyone.
I'm not looking for a big fight with people who rent out their points, but I still don't understand how some people have been convinced to rent out their points for such a low price. Why do people settle for $10 per point. I know it's pretty easy, because it's so cheap. DISCLAIMER: Before I go further, They're Your points, do what you want with them, no one is telling you to sell for more, just wanted to point something out. Why not rent for half price what Disney would sell it for. If a BW or Okw studio would cost $300 plus tax, so say $330. Tell the people inquiring about your points to call Disney, ask the price their offering, then say I'll give it to you for half price no tax. What can they say, "naw that's too much, we can get the Vistana for that".
In Nov. it would cost 8 pts at Okw, 9 pts at the BW for a standard view. At $10 per point, you're charging $90 per night. If You offer the room at 145 to 150 no tax, (15 per point). DVC perks, discounts, pool-hopping, half price rooms, the only "bad" thing no maid service, which they could pay for. You can't get a deluxe room in Disney for that price. At ten dollars per point, at either BW or OKW, you are selling your room for less than the All-stars. Don't say, well over 40 something years these rooms are only costing you this much, so you shouldn't be trying to make money on the rooms. You are not scalping your' rooms, you're selling your rooms for less than the 25% discount a DVC member could buy it for. Why would anyone sell their years' vacation at what the dues cost you, or some other dumb break even equation? I once read some non-Dvcer showing some formula on the boards why we should rent to him at such a low price. These same people could have bought in, like you did. There is a reason we all bought in, we understood in the long run, these rooms for US, became a great deal.
At $10 per point, if you're talking a two bedroom, you're selling at 240 per night no tax, but you the DVCer with the 25% discount can get the two bedroom (if available at the DVC rate) for between $500 and $600 plus the 11% tax.
I did notice before the tragedy, the wanted points on the renters board far exceeded the for rent posts. This past summer, you could go two pages before you could find a for rent post that wasn't already taken. I just think you're selling yourself short. I guess the extra for rent posts maybe from the fear of traveling, or the resales with extra points.
This isn't to trash those who are charging at the lower prices for whatever reason, you can do what you want. I was just wondering if you knew what you were giving away. I can understand if there was a change in job status, or forgot to bank, or whatever.
We recently rented points from a member for a family reunion for friends and family at 13 per point and knew it was a great deal.
I love the posts, I'm willing to pay $7 per point (firm) for our upcoming trip in Feb., and you know what? A lot of hotels in Orlando will accomodate them too, and they'll leave the light on

[PamOKW]

It's a question of what the market will bear. At one point, it seemed as if $10 per point was pretty standard for what people were receiving.

Especially when renting to non-members, I agree with your reasoning that the price should be for nightly or total trip rental....not a per point price. I think the points confuse people. The seller may want to figure on that basis but why should the renter care about the points? They just need to know the price. This could help with rentals that include weekends. Instead of saying Thursday is $90 and Friday is $150 just tell folks you can rent to them for Thursday and Friday at $120 per night.

Recently Disney has had exceptional deals on DVC. It's hard for someone to compete with the prices. Disney offers a lot more assurance and the flexibility to cancel. There is a risk factor in renting from strangers and that's why people look for a rock-bottom price.

[MaryAnnDVC]

Originally posted by Peterd
DVC perks, discounts, pool-hopping, Do renters get all of these things?

[Ken the Retired Cop]

Firstly, I think you post is out of line (JMHO). Your disclaimer is fine and is correct people can rent their points for whatever they wish and bellyaching about it on here really doesn't matter one way or another. If the market for travel is down, it's down. No if's and's or but's. Right now it's not only a buyer's market out there especially for resales, it appears to be a renter's market as well as far as the DVC/Trade board is concerned.

I'm not quite sure of your math as you can get a "Disney" Old Key West 2br at $269 with their codes or AP rates and that comes to roughly $300 with tax per night. DISNEY PRICES. Now what if you cut THAT in half? That's $150 a night! Well guess what based on the points we've rented and at that $150 a night figure that would mean we'd be paying $5 per point! Do you think we rented our points for $5 per point? No we didn't. I would be happy if someone offered me HALF of Disney's "potential" rate (i.e., not everyone gets AP rates or even knows about them).

The point is, the dues on these points are $3 - roughly $4 per point and so for someone to rent them at $6, $7, $8 they are more than DOUBLING their profit on their dues for that particular year. Don't worry I know full well about the purchase price and how you have to figure that over the next 40 years, but the point is, this could be only **1** year a renter will rent their points so instead of complaining about rental prices being "too low", be happy that both the DVC Owner and the DVC Renter are enjoying the best of both worlds!

Who knows what will happen on our upcoming trip, my family might join DVC. I honestly think not at the moment as I feel the purchase price is too high (even resale) and I don't want to be locked in to going to Disney world for the next 40 years (now my daughter is a different story, she and her family would go every year).

Bottom line: Renting points at $7, $8, $9 or even $10 is still an extremely fair price to both renter and seller.

[PamOKW]

MaryAnn -- The rules state that someone who is paying cash for renting is not entitled to the member perks. However, enforcement is pretty much impossible. If they've got a card that says DVC Member, DVC is not going to investigate any further. It's not right, but it's the way things are for now.

[Dean]

Originally posted by MaryAnnDVC
Do renters get all of these things? In reality, yes. Even though they are not supposed to, DVC will put member on their room keys and they will get all of the perks except the one or two that requre the actual member to be present., IF THE RENTER KNOWS ABOUT THEM. Most likely don't know about many of the perks.

As for $10 per point, there are many reasons. Bottom line is that's about the going rate and seems to be what the market will bear. It was starting to edge upward before the recession and 9/11. Another factor would be looking at DVC as an investment property (for thinkings sake) and taking into account the initial investment, lost income on cost, a reasonable return (?8%), dues and the like. that gives you a price at around $8-9 per point for those that bought OKW at $50 per point or so and edges upward somewhere around $11 per point for more recent buyers. The MB program has also lended some support to the $10 per point price.

Since the points structure at DVC is totally different than the cash structure, one must base the cost on per point to be fairly accurate to both parties or evaluate each rental independently. If you base it on DVC price, you can't do it on rack rates as they always have specials with 40% off not being uncommon. As noted, the risk and non refundable nature affect the equation dramactically. What some people do is reserve rooms then auction on ebay for a minimum set price.

[Peterd]

Ken, I don't see how I'm out of line. I'm sorry I haven't experienced these great prices you talk about. When we first bought in, We would stay Sunday to Thurs in a two bedroom on points at the BW and pay cash on the weekend. We would get the 25% off rate for about 330 per night. The next year, the discounted rate was up to $480. We haven't been able to get the discounted rate for awhile, and have been quoted above $680 for a 2 BR. So at $10 per point, the renter gets it at $240 per night. I'm glad you have done all the math for us DVC members, it makes it easier for you to haggle for your best price. It's funny how someone owns something of value, and others who haven't made the investment, feel they should get the rooms for Cost. I can see if the seller was in danger of losing the points for the year, but I know I value the points more than that.I can see why you shouldn't buy, it's cheaper for you to rent. Do they give renters the DVC discount sheet when you check in? Just curious.
I also don't know why you "a renter" would be so upset about one member discussing prices with other members. Don't worry you are not in danger of losing your great discounts. You'll always find someone desperate enough. IMHO.

[Regina]

Peter, You raise a legitimate concern.

I think that it's safe to say that most of us don't join DVC with the intention of becoming landlords.

If I were in a rental situation, and, being a novice, I would look at the rent/trade board and price the points accordingly. However, in doing the math, I would wonder why they're so low in comparison to the cost of a cash stay.

Unfortunately, the travel industry is in a slump, and it's far reaching.

Wouldn't it be nice if Disney could offer the same price protection to members who rent out their points as they do to those who sell their interests?

[Dean]

Peterd, your post didn't come across, as some other have. I didn't read it as a move to increase the rental price, limit renting to anyone or in any other way affect the free market of DVC rentals. I felt you were simply asking why and giving some of the reasons that made you wonder if the current market were too low. If Ken can rent for the prices he quotes, go for it. I know I personally wouldn't rent that low unless I were in danger of losing my points. As for taking the lowest discount price and then figuring a lessor percent of that as a fair rental for DVC points, that's an unreasonable comparison. There is so much more to the cost of DVC than just dues that must be taken into account for the actual cost per point. To rent, you must look at it like your simply bought to rent as a business even then it depends on your resort, purchase price and if you financed. For personal use, the calculations of value are much different and you can figure what you would have paid if you stayed at a hotel, meal savings, etc.

Frankly I don't think the market will bear much above $11 per point at present but I think that's a reasonable price if the slightly lower points rentals realize that. I don't worry about the $7-9 per point as they are all basically one time rentals and almost all are short notice. So maybe we SHOULD talk about the higher rental costs and it will happen, LOL.

[PKS44]

The price of point rental is determined by the market...For a while there was a real estate agent renting out OKW points at $6/pt on the rental board. Obviously there are some members who want the money more than the points...there are a multitude of motivations out there to explain why one person is willing to set their per point price at a certain level...they just lost a job, need to get some money now... they are afraid to fly but want to get some cash now to use for a local trip...the points are in danger of being lost altogether and they want to get something...meanwhile there have to be people out there to buy the points who have a variety of motivations- theyu re going soon, they are planning well in advance, they need only a few points to complete an existing reservation...Add to this the complete and total lack of any guarantees to either side and this affects the equation as well...Ken the retired cop could have posted "Why would anyone pay $13 per point when you could get the same thing for a lot less?" As in all such exchanges, people will generally try to get the best deal they can for themselves...it is the best way to deliver the goods and services to people- the free market governed by Adam Smith's invisible hand...

Asking the question of the original post suggests there is a "right" answer...there is... but it is determined by the complex motivations and forces mentioned above-not any individual's mathematical calculation....

Paul

[cindyfan]

Wanted to jump in here just out of curiousity........
I have lurked here at the DVC board for a while looking to possibly rent points for our trip in June. Maybe for Vero and OKW.

Here is my take on some of the prices....
For example (I used the point calculator on this site) :
If we were to stay at OKW for 6 nights june 6th - 11 it would take 89 points for a studio. At a cost of $8 / pt = $712 for the 6 nights.
Two years ago we were able to get a discounted room at OKW in Oct for $115 / night = $690. It was a "special rate" offered to us by CRO when I called in August looking for any discounts on the room we had at CBR.
So it was actually cheaper to wait and take your chances on availability.
Now granted....it was 2 years ago and in Oct.....but I believe things are a little tougher going these days.

Soooooo....IMHO a rate of $8 or $9 per point is more than fair market value.

And if members are unable to use up their points, why not rent them at what they consider "fair"

[WebmasterDoc]

If we were to stay at OKW for 6 nights june 6th - 11 it would take 89 points for a studio. At a cost of $8 / pt = $712 for the 6 nights.

In the example you chose, the same dates in Oct would be only 61 points and at even $10 per point would have saved you another $80 over the "special deal" you thought you had through CRO. June is a much higher season for DVC resorts.

Soooooo....IMHO a rate of $8 or $9 per point is more than fair market value.

Your point is well taken however, as it is always a good idea to compare the costs whenever possible. Just make sure you are comparing the right things. "Fair market value" isn't always a static number.

[cindyfan]

Let's take it one step farther.....
I understand that in renting or purchasing points the tax is included....am I correct? this is what someone told me.
Yet we still need to pay the 11% tax going through CRO.
So....actual cost of our Oct stay at OKW was $766 ( I looked up our bill).
I put in dates for this coming Oct.....Thurs to Tues same as for June.....It came up 74 points.
Therefore.....at $8 / pt = $592
Or.....$10 / pt = $740

So.....the deal we got through CRO was a VERY good deal, considering we had maid service, and there were no restrictions on cancelations etc, if we had to cancel.

All I am saying is that anything between $8 to $10 is IMHO fair.

YES it is a very good deal too. But all things considered, with the decline in travel, etc......If someone is trying to rent some of their points, going higher than $10 lessens their chances of renting them out when guests still have a chance to reserve rooms at the same rate when calling CRO.

And....If I can save "another $80 over the "special deal" " then I might be compelled to rent those points early. Therefore relieving the stress the DVC member is under trying to rent them out.

It is all a numbers game. And you are right "fair market value is not always a static number.

Back to the original post.........This is why some are renting points out a such a low price.....IMHO

[Peterd]

Sorry to cause such a huff with you renters, I was just asking the DVC MEMBERS their opinion, figured it was a DVC board. I kind of already knew what the renters opinion would be, because you have the most to lose. I work in a building of 400 or so people, and if I posted rooms at the BW or Okw for half price, people would dive at it. I've been asked many times for rooms. If anyone is having any trouble renting your points, Just let me know, and I'll post it on my work board for half price, and email them your emails, and you can work out better deals. I just thought members could do better for their investment, instead of selling them for priceline prices.

[WebmasterDoc]

I put in dates for this coming Oct.....Thurs to Tues same as for June.....It came up 74 points.

Another point worth checking, as I used the same dates (6-11) in October and got a total of 61 points. DVC costs are often more than double on weekends vs weeknights. The dates in Oct are 8 points per night on week nights and 21 on weekends- thus the difference. While cash reservations are not different on weekends.

The cash "deals" are rarely available until 60 days before and then are dependant on rooms unreserved by members. Some months will have a lot of availability (thus the discounts) and others little (or no) availability and thus no discount.

Bottom line is that the reservation is worth only what a member is willing to accept and what a renter is willing to pay....and that may vary depending on the circumstances at hand for each negotiation.

Enjoy!

[ripleysmom]

I have also seen some of the prices that Ken is quoting. I remember thinking "Well there goes the rental market...."

[fkj2]

I do think potential renters might be better off paying cash for Fri-Sat, depending on the season but in all honesty, I think it's also offensive to "want' or "need" points and then tell the owner what they're willing to pay, especially when it amounts to Value Resort prices for Deluxe accommodations, maid service or not. Sure, everybody looks for discounts but I'm reasonably sure CRO doesn't accept calls from people who "need" to stay at the Grand Floridian but can only afford $150, as an example. I would imagine they're offered something at the Moderates.

Disney doesn't give any slack to the DVC owners. We have high point nights too in those desirable seasons for a weeklong vacation and I doubt any of us are willing to call Member Services and tell them we "need" a Friday night in high season but we're only willing to use 35 points for it. If we can get it for cash, that's what some of us do.

[Dean]

A little emphasis. On the points, I get 61 also to include one weekend night. AT $10 per point that's $610 including tax but no housekeeping. Still a good deal compared to the special rate you received even if you would be giving up the daily maid service. All of the posts I remember that were less than $9 per point were short notice or only a few points. I've seen some at $9 that were not quite as restrictive but none less than $10 pp that would have gotten you the 11 month window. Weekends are very expensive for points so it will likely always be better to pay cash for them, that's why many rentals are 5 days Sunday to Friday as are many members stays, mine included.

Since I've rented all of my 2002 (502) and basically all of my 2003 points at the $10 per point price, I'm not worried about the market taking a big dive. Yes I know DVC is to use, but I'm in HI for 2 weeks this summer and in MX for a week and HH for a week (two concurrent 2 BR oceanfront units) in 2003, so not much DVC time available. We were in HH for 2 weeks last summer with two 2 BR units concurrently and a 2 BR the week after. Invited several family members to join us for week one. All oceanfront and 5* Marriott resorts.

[Andrea T]

I suppose there are many ways to calculate the dollar amount that we will rent our points for. As a retired accountant (motherhood took precedence), my method would have been a disgrace to the profession!!! A gentlemen happened to offer a dollar amount that was the exact remaining balance on my upcoming summer cruise. Very convenient. I've insured him and his family a lovely vacation, and my family the same, with no cash outlay. In effect, it was like paying for my vacation with my points. Good enough for me!

[EROS]

The point "value" of rentals has LITTLE to do with reality. I would agree that strictly speaking, points are "undervalued" at $10 each. However, CAPITAL MARKETS always reflect supply and demand. If too many DVCers offered up points, the price would go DOWN; conversely, if DIS was hit by scores of new "renters", the price would go up. ;)

[cindyfan]

I think EROS hit it on the head with "SUPPLY AND DEMAND".
That is what will determine the price more than anything.
Which also determines the cash rates available by calling CRO. Just look at what has happened since Sept. We have seen rates dive so low!!

Cash reservations may not differ completely on weekends, but there are other factors involved. Mainly availability of rooms.
So the weekend thing does come into play.

And Knowing that the cash rates aren't available til 60 days before.....we are taking chances. Which makes "renting" points so desirable to those of us wanting to stay at a particular DVC resort.

Doc, I completely agree with your "bottom line" comment.

This all makes the planning of a WDW vacation FUN!!!
Some may not agree with me on that point......but I LOVE the planning !!! and looking for "deals" :)

Thanks!! :)

[Disney On The Bayou]

I understand supply and demand and everything else, but I wouldn't even consider renting my points to strangers for anything less then $12-$15. In some cases, I may not have a renter, but I would rather give my points to family and friends then to charge just $6-8 points. However, I would certainly consider renting points to a trusting DVC member for a much lower cost, (dues) if that member would return the favor.

[cindyfan]

It may be time for me to bow out of this thread......since I am not a DVC member. Even though a potential "renter"

Disney on the Bayou......isn't that discriminatory!!
Who's to say a member can be trusted any more or less than a non-DVC member?
Do you not trust your fellow DIS board members?

Sorry just had to say it.

Now bowing out.....

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts:)

[fkj2]

I don't know that Disney on the Bayou meant to imply anything about his statement; I think that he just feels a sense of camaderie with fellow DVCers.

As Doc as said many times, the rent/trade thing is about trust and being fair to BOTH parties.

[Deb & Bill]

Sorry, Renters, you won't be getting any of my 400 points. I'll give them to family and friends before I sell them to people I don't know. We bought our points for our vacations. Why don't you just go out and buy some of your own instead of leeching off of us? [I know I am gonna get flamed for that, but that's my opinion of non-DVC owners renting points. It burns my butt to see people suggesting renting points from DVC owners to bring down the cost of their one time vacation. They don't feel its any kind of problem to add a few extra people to the room, just bring in a few cots or aerobeds.] DVC is family to me. You don't belong to my family. And that includes you, cindyfan, and call it discriminatory if you like. Tough.

[ncligs]

Deb and Bill, very well said. I agree with you 100%. I would give them to family or sell them to friends at a very reasonable cost, before I would sell them to strangers and non-DVC members.:D

[Regina]

Okay everyone, let's take a deep breath and try to calm down.

Obviously, this is a hot topic. Let's remember the board rules, and not engage in personal attacks.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

:)

[cindyfan]

Quite possibly my intent is to try out the DVC experience or resort before I choose to buy into it.
Did you not do the same????

I am not a "leech" and don't appreciate the attack.
In order to rent points there has to a member "of your family" that is willing to rent them out!

Thanks dvcreg!!
This thread started out civil, and some very good points were brought up!
But, now feeling very unwelcome.......so

NOW, I'm out of here :)

[Dean]

Renters and non members are fine. We should all show respect, both ways. Don't let a few people with strong feelings push you away.

[Richyams]

Again, what Dean said.....

[mic_KY_mouses]

This is my opinion added into the mix. I think it's to be commended that someone does their homework when deciding whether to rent points or not, or rent out their points or not, or buy into DVC or not..... etc...

We bought into DVC Thanksgiving week while visiting Disney. While in Orlando we stayed in a very, very nice 2 bedroom condo (0ffsite, a mile from the park) for just $300 for a whole week. We did our homework and got a last-minute deal through the TUG board. If I ever feel the need to rent my points I will do my homework once again and do whatever I feel gets ME the best value.

I think all posters on this board should be commended (me included
:D for doing our homework.......OH, and I gotta go now and call my lawyer to see how I can get adopted by Deb and Bill....since their going to give their points away to family!!!!:D

[TrudyZ]

Whoa, Deb and Bill--- where did that come from??

I am one of those "leeches" you so elequently referred to. I rented points to check out DVC (only packed 3 people in our studio!); and ended up buying a resale (you can thank me now for propping up the value of your DVC membership by increasing the market demand for resales).

Aren't you glad to know I am now one of the "family" (kinda like the red-headed stepchild (no offense to redheads meant here)). How on earth did you let one of us renters in??? Boy, don't you just hate when the family tree goes to hell??:D

Trudy

PS I had a few extra points and rented some of my points out--and converted two renters to owners. You know, once you let in a bad seed :D Better sell soon--DVC is being overtaken by former renters!!

[PKS44]

First- I am a recent DVC member...I have never rented points or rented out my points, but I might do either in the future if it works for me...Not everyone wants to committ to 40 years with DVC (their loss) but if a member wants the money more than he or she wants the points, this is what markets were created for...I don't think this makes the renter a leech any more than you or I leech off any entrepreneur...it is a simple business transaction...sure I would prefer to rent from/to family or friends, but mostly because with a stranger, I am not sure how comfortable I would be....

It is the insecurity of the whole thing scares me, but just knowing someone is a DVC member is not assurance enough for me...it's true that with another DVC member at least you can sort of know where they are for the next 40 years ... we have non-member friends (oh my goodness!) whom we could not accommodate (we only have a small contract for our own use). They are renting points from a member to go later this year...they found him on the Rent/Trade board...I encouraged them to check the guy out thoroughly and even contact him personally as I believe you can learn a little more from a voice than a post...they did not call him, and have exchanged some of the money already...I hope it all works out but I am nervous. My friends are legit- I don't know about this DVC member. I will be glad when it all works out...

Paul

[Regina]

As I said before, I've never been involved in a rental.

From what I've observed, the problem seems to be the expectation that the owners should price the points at a rate that's so low that it's undervaluing the property.

Part of this logic is based on the "great deals" that Disney has for cash stays. If this is the case, why on earth would anyone want to rent? It would remove the element of risk, and the restrictions are far less severe.

We all know the answer. It's because some points are being offered at a bargain basement rate.

While it's free choice, it can be unsettling to see this from an investment perspective.

[fkj2]

See, that's my point too....that there's this EXPECTATION that owners should rent the points for such a low price......as though renters are doing us this huge favor by taking those points off our hands.

If potential renters can get such a great deal through Dis (daily housekeeping and 11% room tax), to quote Dis, "Be my guest".

[Dean]

Don't be fooled into thinking it's just certain renters who think you should rent too low. I can remember many discussions over the past 2 or 3 years about those with $13-18 per point listings and ebay sales in that range where the member bandwagon was that the member shouldn't charge so much, it wasn't fair to the other members. I've also seen lots of posts from members saying one should only rent for a low amount to other members, somthing in the price range of dues only or $5 per point.

That's not to say these members are trying to deflate the market, I don't think they were. They were just looking at this as a big family and saying you should only rent to family (members and direct family) at a price so as to be careful and not make any profit. I disagree in principal with these people but they are welcome to their opinion and to rent me their points at that price if they want to.

[Deb & Bill]

It's always been my understanding that anyone can stay at a DVC property as long as they have either the cash or the points. So to say that you need to rent points to check out DVC is a crock.

[PamOKW]

Renting points out to people beyond one's personal circle of friends and family is a grey area with DVC as far as I'm concerned. It moves more into the realm of being a business and I think steps into being a commercial use of the property. The proliferation of the Internet and boards such as these had made renting points much easier for everyone than if people were using classified newspaper ads. I wish the practice had been stopped by DVC but it seems like it is here to stay. In the grand scheme, it is still a very small amount of points that are being rented out this way.

That said, nobody owes anything to anyone in terms of how they price those points. There are no rules, pricing guidelines, cancellation policies....everything is set by the DVC owner and whoever they are dealing with. Also, people should remember this is the Internet, not a family. DVC is a company owned by Disney. It is not a fraternal club or a family. I enjoy sharing information and chatting with people here. I feel I have an idea of what type of person many of you are. But, in reality, I have no way of knowing if you are as represented here. I also have no obligation to price things differently for members vs. non-members. Some members break just as many rules as non-members so that's not necessarily protecting our investment.

I think people read on other boards or the Mousesavers site how they can get deals by renting from members. There are actually only a small amount of people offering those rentals so the prices can fluctuate up and down. People get annoyed when they are asked to pay more than they expected and the member is annoyed that someone is not going to pay what they expect. But, that's business. I hear Macy's is having a big one day sale. I go to see what they are charging for the dress I've been wanting for months. It had been priced at $700. The one day sale has just about everything in the store priced at 50% off. Except that dress...still full price. Can I go and tell the salesperson who badly I want the dress and how good it will look on me and how I'll probably buy more at Macy's if they let me wear it? Oh, and can she also use her employee discount to get me an additional 20% off since I come in all the time and chat with her so I'm like family? I don't think so.

I don't plan on selling my DVC anytime soon and unless the price falls dramatically I can still recoup most of my expenses. Anyone who rents points and then purchases is not doing anything for me. You are giving Disney a profit and paying the salespeople but it has no benefit to me.

[John.Disney]

There is nothing going on here that can't be explained by supply and demand as others have pointed out. On paper, renting points from a member at current rates is a great deal if you can find the accomodations you need. If there were more publicity I'm sure the rates would stay above $10 a point.

If you go over to the resorts board you see lots of questions about postcards and when are the new AP specials coming out. It seems like most people aren'y even aware that renting points can get you an even better deal than the postcards in many cases. Or maybe I'm underestimating peoples willingness to take on the risk of dealing independently with a stranger on the net, I don't know.

What I do know is that not every DVC member is affluent enough to be giving away the points they can't use. Also, there is a lot more cost to a WDW vacation than the accomodations, and even once every other year can be a lot for some members (not to mention short or long term drastic changes in people's financial situations). This along with the fact that Disney is not slowing down its sales of new memberships leads me to believe that there will always be a steady supply of points being rented out. Still, the supply will always have its limits.

OTOH, if the word is spread that this is a viable means of getting a great deal on accomodations, demand would be theoretically unlimited. Outside of the risk and *uncomfortableness* of dealing with strangers and not Disney, the price should probably settle somewhere around the AP discounts then available.

I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing that would be (spreading the word), but my guess is it would be something other than the 'us vs. them' attitude taken by some of the posters on this thread. The fact is, the DVC family is a small part of the Disney familiy, which has been around a lot longer. Some renters may be Disney newcomers, but others may have been around a lot longer than you.

John

[Disney On The Bayou]

Cindy,

What I was trying to state briefly was: I may rent some unused points to another DVC member for say just the dues on those points, in return, that member would rent me some points in the future for the cost of the dues. Really, borrowing except that you pay the dues in case they increase. Example: I rent from Bob this year when the dues are 3 dollars and somthing, then Bob rents points from me in 2004, but now the dues are 4 dollars and somrthing.

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Renting points out to people beyond one's personal circle of friends and family is a grey area with DVC as far as I'm concerned. It moves more into the realm of being a business and I think steps into being a commercial use of the property. The proliferation of the Internet and boards such as these had made renting points much easier for everyone than if people were using classified newspaper ads. I wish the practice had been stopped by DVC but it seems like it is here to stay. In the grand scheme, it is still a very small amount of points that are being rented out this way. Pam and I have posted on opposite sides of this fence before. I don't expect to change her mind and I'm sure she doesn't expect me to change mine. For the rest, here's my feelings garnered from reading the POS and a little understanding of the legal ramifications. Legally DVC cannot prevent one from renting what that person owns without making it almost impossible to rent the rooms themselves. Disney could make it difficult based on usage of protected trademarks and the like and various hoops to jump through but would be treading on thin ice unless one were blatantly using Disney's logo's and the like.

For those that might have missed the previous discussion including the newer members and non members here. The legal paperwork specific allows renting and says so in SEVERAL places, but states in one place on (I believe) that comercial usage is forbidden. Most perks are technically not given to renters though in reality there is no policement in this area. DVC did not decide to elaborate further on specifics in these 2 areas. Many of the more pure at heart have taken this to mean that anything that's a "profit" or anything above the dues rate is "commercial". My first though is that they are trying to prevent someone from running a business out of the DVC units and at the very least, prevent someone from opening a door with a sign above stating DVC rentals with the logo above. Even then, I don't think DVC could prevent rentals, just use of protected simbols. We've even had one of the resale agents renting out points on DIS and DVCrent. Frankly anything less than that would be within the legal and DVC rules in my estimation. There are some tax ramifications in that anything over "2 weeks" rental is taxable but no real precedent in figuring out what 2 weeks is when dealing with a points type timeshare.

[PamOKW]

Dean -- I agree that renting is and probably will continue to be allowed. I just think some of the people who come here looking to rent points think it is a business that has established rules and pricing -- like renting from Disney but somehow it will be magically almost a free vacation. In reality, it is no different than renting out a cabin in the woods or a house on the shore from someone you meet on the Internet. You agree on the terms with that person and follow your instincts on how legitimate it will be.

;) The one thing DVC does specifically mention is that you can't put a "For Rent" sign in the window of a unit. ;) I also think that if renting became widespread here and that any type of price fixing were attempted by renters banding together that the Disney powerhouse would squash us like a bug.

[TrudyZ]

One thing to think about if the rental price per point were $15+; it would make it much more attractive to purchase extra contracts just for renting.

With current contract resale prices, one could easily find a resale in the low 60s with plenty of banked points. Assuming last years were banked and this years were available, you soon would see that it wouldn't take very many years to recoup your initial investment and turn a profit (you could get nearly half back in the first year).

Now, there are many that say this is blatantly against the rules; but there are some members of this board that seem to always have plenty of points to rent now. As far as I am concerned, that's none of my business. But for those of you concerned about renters; a large increase in the price per point gotten out of rentals will only fuel the rental market.

And one more thing, as a former renter, I can say that it takes an enormous leap of faith to put a four digit check in the mail to someone you don't personally know--and knowing that they could cancel at anytime and you would be none the wiser. With that, and the loss of the liberal CRO cancellation policy, and maid service, if rental prices were even somewhat close to the AP price; I would have never rented points.

Trudy

Ps Bill and Deb: I didn't NEED to rent DVC points to check out DVC. I wanted to. Besides experiencing the resort, it allowed me to see if I could go without maid service (sounded gastly at first but was no big deal), etc. It sounds like you would be happier if the ability to rent points was eliminated all together. Although that may be your preference; I think that many members, even though they have no intention of renting them out now, wouldn't want to give up that option--you never know what the future holds.

Pam--I didn't support Disney or DVC sales staff either--I bought a resale. What I did do is allow one member, who because of the loss of a spouse decided to sell, recoup their investment. And, of course, the demand on the resale market helps keep the value of our DVC contracts up.

[Dean]

Originally posted by PamOKW
Dean -- I agree that renting is and probably will continue to be allowed. I just think some of the people who come here looking to rent points think it is a business that has established rules and pricing -- like renting from Disney but somehow it will be magically almost a free vacation. In reality, it is no different than renting out a cabin in the woods or a house on the shore from someone you meet on the Internet. You agree on the terms with that person and follow your instincts on how legitimate it will be.

;) The one thing DVC does specifically mention is that you can't put a "For Rent" sign in the window of a unit. ;) I also think that if renting became widespread here and that any type of price fixing were attempted by renters banding together that the Disney powerhouse would squash us like a bug. Pam on this we mostly agree. Even if Disney is not on firm legal ground, they carry a lot of weight which they can throw around if they want. They are literally the 600 lb gorilla.

I must say that I take offense to those wanting to rent attempting to set the rules. I also am offended by members that want to make it a closed environement. I've rented several times as I have more points than I can personally use. I probably should sell one of my contracts but can't bear to part with my DVC. Frankly, it's not for the money. I enjoy the friends I've met and helping people realize their dream. I can't tell you the feelings I get when someone returns from a trip and sends me that almost predictable email after their first DVC (and usually first WDW) trip. The WOW factor is a rush. So far I've found the non members much easier to deal with overall and much more appreciative. I've had great times with members too but the only problem I've had was with a member, now a member of this board but I don't think they were at the time. If it was mostly the money I'd simply work an hour longer a week at the office, I'd make a lot more money than I could make renting DVC even at Millenium rates. As I said, it's enjoyable.

[PamOKW]

Trudy -- I was just rebutting the idea that a person renting points, buying into DVC or buying a resale has any positive effect on current members. Okay, you didn't pay Disney you purchased from someone who wanted/needed to sell. I am not looking to sell my purchase and I am not looking to rent points....I don't care about the "market" for points or rentals. It has no effect on me except for possibly in a sense of satisfaction that I "could" get $XX if I were to sell. Your rental was no more personally positive for me than if you rented a beach house in Malibu and your purchase no different than if you bought a house. (I'm glad you're a member and on these boards....that's the only personal benefit I have from your transaction.)

I still maintain that there are potential negatives involved in people renting out their points for cash rather than using the DVC as their vacation vehicle -- as it was intended. It takes away from the pool of people who are looking to rent from Disney (supporting our Disney Collection options) and possibly from people who would trade into DVC. The amount of people renting is still small enough that the impact may not be noticeable but I think the potential exists. People who booked the NYE 1999 purely to turn a profit were a prime example of doing a disservice to members.

[QueenAnne]

That is a very good point, Doc! Something is only really worth what someone is willing to pay. Will your vacation be any less "valuable" if you rented at $8 or $10 a point?

[PKS44]

PamOKW-wrote
"It takes away from the pool of people who are looking to rent from Disney (supporting our Disney Collection options) and possibly from people who would trade into DVC"

(man I wish I knew how to do those fancy quotes like Dean has)

Pam- Excellent point and one I had not considered. I don't know how many people this represents, but the recent expansion of rentals could be one reason the points went up so much in the Disney Collection. Many will forgo the easy cancellation, etc to pay 50% less for a room than CRO would charge them...food for thought.

Paul

[Dean]

Paul, there are 2 ways to quote. One is to click on the quote button at the bottom right of a post and it will bring up a reply window with the entire post quoted and will reference the person it's quoted from. The second is to copy what you want to quote then when you bring up the reply window, click the quote button at the top.

As for renters affecting the DVC options, I would look at it differently. If there are less people to rent from CRO, that will make the DVC members and their points more attractive to the other Disney hotels and might even decrease the points costs for the DC. While there might be a few less looking to trade into DVC if they rent instead, II still has a long waiting line so no real affect there. And since I'm not convinced that they don't take as good care of our units as members or that they are more likely to abuse the rules; I can't see any negative to a member by having non members stay there other than the loss of the exclussive country club mentality. That's not saying that being part of an exclussive group is bad, it can be good.

[PamOKW]

will make the DVC members and their points more attractive to the other Disney hotels and might even decrease the points costs for the DC.

I was thinking more along the lines of rooms at DVC going empty because people are renting from members. DVC has to get the cash from rentals to "pay" the other hotels. I don't think rentals will ever reach a point where they have an impact on all WDW hotels but it "could" effect our cash. For example, 10 members have traded to the Disney Collection. There are now 10 rooms that DVC needs to rent. They can't get rack rate for them because mutliple member rentals are undercutting the prices. In fact, 4 of the rooms are never rented. The following year, DVC ups the amount of points needed to stay at a Disney Collection hotel to give them more chances to recoup the money.

I don't think we're at this point yet. I'm just concerned that large numbers of people renting their points at WDW were not part of the equation when DVC figured out how all this would balance out.

[drusba]

It took me quite a long while to read this thread to get a full understanding which I believe I now have:

1. A post that begins "not looking for a fight" will obviously never cause one.

2. $10 a point is too much, $8 a point is an embarrassment, $5 a point is just fine, unless of course you are talking about rental price rather than sale price from Disney, in which case it should be at least $15 a point except when the renter is a leech requiring you to give them away.

3. DVC Members should never rent, or should always rent, or are allowed to rent, or are prohibited from renting, or should rent only when impossible to use their points, or should rent only to other members, who of course they can't trust, and, in any event, all members who rent should be squashed like bugs by Disney unless they only rent Fridays and Saturdays which nobody uses anyway.

4. Renting points is like buying a dress or taking a cruise, should never be done with strangers, and by no means should it ever replace the age old custom of giving your points away to family and friends, unless you don't like them, in which case you should charge those suckers through the nose.

5. There is a way to quote people on these boards, for which I have now received instruction, but, of course, I still can't firgure it out, and thus the most useful part of this thread has failed me.


5. And Dean is renting his points for two years and going to Hawaii--and the SOB didn't even invite us to go with. ;)

[TrudyZ]

Thanks to Drusba, meeting adjourned!!

Trudy

[WDWguru]

ROFLOL! ::wild applause:: :D

[WebmasterDoc]

Looks like you have captured the essence of the thread, drusba! ;)

Thanks for the summary! :D :D

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Dean
Paul, there are 2 ways to quote. One is to click on the quote button at the bottom right of a post and it will bring up a reply window with the entire post quoted and will reference the person it's quoted from. The second is to copy what you want to quote then when you bring up the reply window, click the quote button at the top.


This is a test to see if I figured out how to do this...cool it works!!!Thanks, Dean! But I think Pam explains her concerns about renting and the effect on the Disney Collection as I understand it. I think she is right. More rentals from us members = less demand for rooms rented to the public by CRO. less demand= lower price and lower profits when we trade out...I don't think it works the way you suggest that it could make CRO want to get us or our points...

drusba- very funny. I am still smiling...

[Dean]

Originally posted by drusba
It took me quite a long while to read this thread to get a full understanding which I believe I now have:

5. There is a way to quote people on these boards, for which I have now received instruction, but, of course, I still can't firgure it out, and thus the most useful part of this thread has failed me.


5. And Dean is renting his points for two years and going to Hawaii--and the SOB didn't even invite us to go with. ;) Funny!!! You read too slow. Also 6 is after 5. LOL. Seriously, going to HI using other timeshares but can't get time off beyond that so we're stuck, can't go to Disney for a while. I even got 2 rooms in Maui so we could have some privacy from the kids. You know how those slotted doors at the Embassy transmits noise. I got a big suite case and you can sleep out under the stars......on the beach or in the park. Maybe I should send you a postcard, you know the ones you won't let the kids look at.

[Granny]

drusba.....thanks for the multiple chuckles in one post. :D