Pentax K100D or Sony DSLR-A100

[steery1]

I was hoping some of you guys out there with more experience than me would have opinions on these two cameras I'm considering buying at the moment.

I've previously had a couple of film SLRs, (a Sigma and a Canon Rebel) but when DS was born I found I didn't have enough time as I'd like to spend on my hobby. So when I decided to go digital I copped out and bought a Sony DSC-P100 p+s because it was so small and fitted my lifestyle at the time.

Recently, now that DS is a bit older and I find some extra time on my hands I decided to get a Sony DSC-H2. I feel Im just a little limited with this camera (no disrespect) and am seriously thinking of returning it for one of the above, (I like the in-body IS on these two)

I'll mainly be using it for my own pleasure, nothing serious. I'll be shooting anything from close ups to sports, just anything really, a nice hobby.

Any thoughts or advice will be gratefully accepted. TIA

[MarkBarbieri]

I'm going to stay out of this one.:sad2:

[steery1]

I'm going to stay out of this one.:sad2:

Did I say something I shouldn't have? :)

[photo_chick]

I'm going to stay out of this one.:sad2:

:rotfl2:
Tell us how you really feel!

Seriously, if you already have a Rebel, why not look at the EOS DSLR's. Then you already have some lenses.
Which mount does the Sigma use? Lens mounts (beyond Canon) are a place where I am fairly uninformed.

[Anewman]

Did I say something I shouldn't have? :)

No nothing...


Now watch this.


IMO the Sony is better suited for sports, just because of the bigger buffer and lens selection. But you did not mention which sports.

[steery1]

:rotfl2:
Tell us how you really feel!

Seriously, if you already have a Rebel, why not look at the EOS DSLR's. Then you already have some lenses.


Its a clean slate. I dont have the Rebel anymore and I think I prefer the in-body IS on the Sony and Pentax.
I know theres a few Dis members who rate the Pentax.

[steery1]

IMO the Sony is better suited for sports, just because of the bigger buffer and lens selection. But you did not mention which sports.

Mainly soccer, possibly motor and bike racing

[Anewman]

Mainly soccer, possibly motor and bike racing

For Sports IS is pretty much useless, it only helps stop motion blur caused by camera shake not subject movement.

Without saying that the Pentax would be useless for those sports... IMO a 4 shot burst(max) pales in comparison with unlimited burst that the Sony would give you. And from friends that have the Sony it is said to focus very fast(dependant on lens), while I have heard not so great focus speed issues with Pentax cameras(again lens dependant).

Also IMO the lens selection with Sony/Minolta lenses is better suited for outdoor sports when compared to the PENTAX library.

[steery1]

Also IMO the lens selection with Sony/Minolta lenses is better suited for outdoor sports when compared to the PENTAX library


Thanks Anewman.
I do mention sports but really what I need is a good all round performance.
I was kinda leaning towards the Sony even though it is more expensive. So theres more lenses for the Sony.

[photo_chick]

Its a clean slate. I dont have the Rebel anymore and I think I prefer the in-body IS on the Sony and Pentax.
I know theres a few Dis members who rate the Pentax.


gotcha. I will not go into my whole Sony is evil speech here because, well that is not really relevant to the perfomance of their cameras. I do feel as a whole the company's qualtiy control has been seriously lacking the past few years. I had a DSC-H1 briefly and I did not like it at all. I passed it on to my sister when I go tmy Rebel XT.

[steery1]

gotcha. I will not go into my whole Sony is evil speech here because, well that is not really relevant to the perfomance of their cameras. I do feel as a whole the company's qualtiy control has been seriously lacking the past few years. I had a DSC-H1 briefly and I did not like it at all. I passed it on to my sister when I go tmy Rebel XT.


Oops I didn't know Sony was evil :lmao:
One of the reasons I was considering the Sony (apart from the in-body IS was because I've now had two of their p+s models (and a camcorder) and found them pretty good. No complaints at all. :)

The reason I was considering the Pentax was the price and the good reports it gets here and elsewhere. :)

[photo_chick]

Oops I didn't know Sony was evil :lmao:
One of the reasons I was considering the Sony (apart from the in-body IS was because I've now had two of their p+s models (and a camcorder) and found them pretty good. No complaints at all. :)

The reason I was considering the Pentax was the price and the good reports it gets here and elsewhere. :)

I had the opposite response to Sony cameras! To each his own!

[ukcatfan]

If you are looking at the more expensive Sony, then you should also be considering the Pentax K10D instead of the K100D. I think the K100D is more for the money, but if you want to shoot much sports or action in general, then the K10D of A100 are your better choices due to the buffer.

As for the lens lineup, that can be very subjective, so it would be better to know how much you plan to invest in lenses and what kinds you want. There are some very nice Pentax primes that could be great for sports depending on the situation and how much you want to spend.

I am not too familiar with the Sony lenses currently available, but I know that there are millions of used Pentax and Minolta lenses around. I also must say that I am a little sceptical of Sony's track record of dropping product lines when they do not perform well enough. I am not sure that Pentax is really in a better market position or anything, but they at least do not have that company track record to consider. Does anyone remember Beta, DAT, MiniDisc, etc. I know that some are still used in professional situations, but they abandoned their consumer customers.

Kevin

[Anewman]

Thanks Anewman.
I do mention sports but really what I need is a good all round performance.
I was kinda leaning towards the Sony even though it is more expensive. So theres more lenses for the Sony.

No I am not claiming that there are more Sony(Minolta) lenses, just that their selection is better suited for "outdoor" sports IMO.

Pentax users like to point out the fact that Pentax DSLRs can use(with adapters???) any and all Pentax lenses ever made including older manual focus lenses. I am just giving my opinion that those would not be IDEAL for fast moving outdoor sports.

And as for dropping product lines, most manufacturers have done it. I still have old Canon manual focus lenses, it does not mean I am worried about owning a EOS DSLR.

What I would do is look at your local camera shop(or etailer) and see which readily available lenses you would possibly buy. See which selection is more aimed towards you.

[photo_chick]

I remember Beta, we had a Beta video camera and player!

Don't forget UMD movies on that list. The games sell beause you can't rip just any game to a memory stick and play it like you can a DVD. I have a strong feeling when the PSP is replaced UMD will die all together right there.

[Anewman]

I remember Beta, we had a Beta video camera and player!

Don't forget UMD movies on that list. The games sell beause you can't rip just any game to a memory stick and play it like you can a DVD. I have a strong feeling when the PSP is replaced UMD will die all together right there.


Yes you CAN rip PSP games and play them from a memory stick.

not that it matters.

[photo_chick]

Pentax users like to point out the fact that Pentax DSLRs can use(with adapters???) any and all Pentax lenses ever made including older manual focus lenses. I am just giving my opinion that those would not be IDEAL for fast moving outdoor sports.



I have an old Pentax SLR with a 55mm f/1.8 (M42 mount) lens that I have used to shoot sports. It is a fast lens and is very sharp. Course your zoom is your feet with it! But if you want to shoot a kids soccer game from the sidelines it will do nicely. Well, at least it does for me!

My feeleing on this is that people had to manual focus long before AF lenses came to be. A lot of the time I manually focus. Those photographers who shot sports before AF lenses did not seem to have a problem with it.

[photo_chick]

Yes you CAN rip PSP games and play them from a memory stick.

not that it matters.

But they have to be PSP games to start with, right?

Again, more support for the death of UMD.

[Anewman]

But they have to be PSP games to start with, right?

Again, more support for the death of UMD.


???????

OK:thumbsup2

[Anewman]

Pentax users like to point out the fact that Pentax DSLRs can use(with adapters???) any and all Pentax lenses ever made including older manual focus lenses. I am just giving my opinion that those would not be IDEAL for fast moving outdoor sports.

I have an old Pentax SLR with a 55mm f/1.8 (M42 mount) lens that I have used to shoot sports. It is a fast lens and is very sharp. Course your zoom is your feet with it! But if you want to shoot a kids soccer game from the sidelines it will do nicely. Well, at least it does for me!

My feeleing on this is that people had to manual focus long before AF lenses came to be. A lot of the time I manually focus. Those photographers who shot sports before AF lenses did not seem to have a problem with it.

Great for you, if you feel that a 55mm Manual focus lens is "IDEAL"(the word I used) for soccer.

[ukcatfan]

And as for dropping product lines, most manufacturers have done it. I still have old Canon manual focus lenses, it does not mean I am worried about owning a EOS DSLR.

Sorry, but I do not see that as an apples to apples analogy. The move to AF from MF is an upgrade, not a dropping of a product line IMO. Also, that is not the same thing as what Sony has done in the past. They drop entire divisions of their business, not just product lines. Dropping a product line for them would be stopping producing tape Walkmans while continuing to sell MP3 Walkmans.

Also, the vast majority of the used Pentax lenses do not need an adapter. There are many used AF lenses around. They are not all MF, and like it has been stated anyway, you do not always have to have AF.

Kevin

[Anewman]

Sorry, but I do not see that as an apples to apples analogy. The move to AF from MF is an upgrade, not a dropping of a product line IMO. Also, that is not the same thing as what Sony has done in the past. They drop entire divisions of their business, not just product lines. Dropping a product line for them would be stopping producing tape Walkmans while continuing to sell MP3 Walkmans.

Also, the vast majority of the used Pentax lenses do not need an adapter. There are many used AF lenses around. They are not all MF, and like it has been stated anyway, you do not always have to have AF.

Kevin

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

You see Manual to Auto focus as an UPGRADE, but you dont see Beta to DVD as an upgrade. Going from Tape Walkman to MP3 Walkman is IMO also an upgrade in many ways, but I understand if you dont agree.

Point is that MANY manufacturers dropped tape products(and countless other stuff), what that has to do with the price of tea in China I dont know.

Canon has made and dropped countless printer lines, and "abandoned" specific ink cartridges where the consumers only option has been to buy a new printer. What does that have to do with their cameras? NOTHING IMO.

[DisneyGirl4188]

I recently got the Pentax k100d and I love it! For under a $1000 I was able to get the camera and 4 lenses.

I am sure Groucho will be by to explain all the benefits of Pentax, but I wanted to put my vote in for them. :)

[photo_chick]

Great for you, if you feel that a 55mm Manual focus lens is "IDEAL"(the word I used) for soccer.

I was jsut gettinga tthe point that old does not mean usless. Generally I am more of a "capture the scene" kind of shooter when it comes to events like that, so for me it actually is ideal. But I do know that what works for me does not work for everyone. But the lack of AF should not preclude a lens form working very well for a situation, which semed like what you were trying to say. There are lots of older manual focus telephoto lenses that work great. I have some for my Canon A-1. They work great, better than what I can afford now for my Rebel. Too bad there is not a good adapter so I can use them on my Rebel. It seems asking someone to manually focus is like asking them to get up off the couch to change the channel now days. To me it is like why spend 3 hours with the TV stuck on one channel becuase the remote is lost in the couch when you could have just walked a few feet and pushed the button! There are times I wish I had a Pentax DSLR so I would have a wider range of older lenses to purchase.

[ukcatfan]

You see Manual to Auto focus as an UPGRADE, but you dont see Beta to DVD as an upgrade.

What????? When did I say that? But, to be specific Beta support for consumers was dropped probably ten years before DVD was introduced. It was not an upgrade. The upgrade was from VHS to DVD.

Kevin

[ukcatfan]

Point is that MANY manufacturers dropped tape products(and countless other stuff), what that has to do with the price of tea in China I dont know.



My point is that Sony has a history of not having any loyalty to their customers. I say this b/c it is not like they were going out of business or anything but out of the blue discontinued entire divisions of their business. It is applicable b/c Sony has not exactly gone full force in the DSLR market. I would not be shocked in the least bit if all of a sudden they say that they are getting out or change the mount and abandon the old lens owners.

Kevin

[Anewman]

My point is that Sony has a history of not having any loyalty to their customers. I say this b/c it is not like they were going out of business or anything but out of the blue discontinued entire divisions of their business.


Actually they continued Beta support until they started planning their DVD release, they(Sony) did not release a VHS player until late 88 but they continued with BETA even though everyone knew it was dead(IE Rolling Stone Cover, Married with Children episode).


Again it has to do with your point of view, I dont think it was "out of the blue" when they discontinued any of the examples you have stated. The writing was on the wall, if you chose to read it. In my opinion, they went with some of those technologies TOO LONG.

[Groucho]

First let's get the PSP tangent out of the way... not only can you play PSP games off a memory stick, you can also play Playstation 1 games and a bunch of different emulators like NES, Gameboy, TurboGrafx (my favorite!), various Ataris, Segas, etc. My wife's got several on her PSP, that was one of the big reasons we chose it. Well, that and Loco Roco. :)

Back on topic. I'm pretty sure that the Pentax lens selection will be better across the board. Also remember that "older lenses" does include autofocus ones, too. :)

For continuous shooting, the K100D is hampered by an unusually low buffer (five JPGs). They made up for this with the K10D, which can shoot unlimited JPGs, until your memory card is full. As ukcatfan said, an apples to apples comparison is the K10D vs the A100 - in this case, IMHO, the K10D easily beats the A100 in every way, though it may cost slightly more. (Currently $899 w/kit lens at Beach.)

As for mf vs af - for motorsports, manual focus is the way to go, IMHO. The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up. Pick the place on the track where you plan on taking a photo, focus on it, then pan on the camera and hit the shutter in the right place. Here's an example that I took on my K1000, 100% manual, back in '95 at Watkins Glen. Any lack of sharpness is due to imperfect panning, not focus.

http://www.totalsham.com/pics/main.php/d/7508-2/WG95-911_74_-02.jpg

To, to sum up. If you can live with a 5-picture shot buffer (3 if shooting RAW, but outdoors sports should be fine in JPG as there shouldn't be white balance or exposure issues), the K100D is a great way to go. If you need more, than you're looking at spending more money, and I think the K10D offers a lot more camera for the price.

The good news is that all three are extremely good cameras, though. :) I would wonder about a long-term commitment from Sony, though. I'm not sure how well they're selling. For a totally unscientific comparison, the Pentax/Samsung DSLR forum at Steve's Digicams has about 4x the number of messages as the Minolta/Sony DSLR forum, and at DPReview, it's about 2x as many for Pentax. I also haven't heard much of anything about a follow-up camera to the A100, whereas Pentax has released several DSLRs, has discussed plans for a K100D and K10D follow-up later this year, they have a working medium-format DSLR that should see release one of these days, and are working on a future "pro" DSLR that will be a step up from the K10D.

[Anewman]

I'm not sure how well they're selling. For a totally unscientific comparison, the Pentax/Samsung DSLR forum at Steve's Digicams has about 4x the number of messages as the Minolta/Sony DSLR forum, and at DPReview, it's about 2x as many for Pentax.

I can agree with most of your post but I would not consider the number of messages on chat boards as an indicator of sales numbers.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1175724860.html

Sony Corp. consolidated its second place in overall digicam sales, increasing its market share by 0.6% to 15.8% of the global market. Sony shipped a total of 16.7 million digital cameras in 2006, a 19.2% increase on 2005 figures. Meanwhile the company's entry into the digital SLR market saw Sony debut in third place with a 6.2% market share, after its purchase of Konica Minolta's DSLR unit. Sony shipped a total of 326,240 digital SLRs in 2006.

...

Pentax Corp. shipped 285,932 digital SLRs in 2006, achieving fifth place with a market share of 5.4% ...


If you check the circuitcity website, the Sony has almost 10x as many customer reviews as the Pentax k10d, again not any kind of indicator.

[MarkBarbieri]

OK, just a few pointless, snippy comments...but I promise to stay off topic.

PSP? Are people still buying those? The Nintendo DS totally spanked the PSP. It has a huge sales lead (Nintendo just dramatically boosted their financial forecast for the year because of extraordinary DS sales) and usage surveys show an even more dramatic lead. The PSP has cool technology, but people actually use their DSes. Sony makes interesting technology but the seem to have a real problem getting people interested in using it. Just look at the former PS3 fanboys that are over at my house to play with the Wii all the time. :happytv:


We're arguing over whether Sony or Pentax has more market share in the DSLR market? That's like arguing over who has the better chances in the US presidential election - the Green Party or the Libertarians. :dance3:


If you're shooting soccer with a 55mm lens, you better hope your kids play on a really, really small field. That's awfully wide for sports shooting. :scared:

The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up.
I think that's a typo. It should read "The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up, assuming your aren't using a 1-series Canon with a fast focusing USM lens." ;-)


OK, enough off topic, snippy comments from me. I'll let you guys go back to your argument, er, discussion.

popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn::

[Groucho]

PSP? Are people still buying those? The Nintendo DS totally spanked the PSP.
Ford has sold more Tauruses than Aston Martin has sold DB9s, too.

As for PS3 vs Wii, the recent GDC was interesting as the consensus seemed to be that Nintendo stumbled badly and Sony hit one out of the park. The Wii is a gimmick, just like the second screen of the DS - which even the most die-hard Nintendo fan has to admit, has been mostly a failure, with few games utilitizing it. I don't think that the Wii will have any legs. Furthermore, as a movie fan, I think that PS3's including of BluRay cannot be underestimated, and further-furthermore, the 60g model is overhyped when the 20g model is a smarter buy, but people like to be sensational and talk about the $600 price tag. Of course, a standalone BluRay player is $800-1,000, so there you go.

Anyway, back to the PSP, the only downside has been the lack of solid games. There are many good ones currently, and since ours is hacked, we can play entire libraries of games for other systems as well. One of the main reasons we got one was as a combo photo viewer/music player (so my wife could show off pictures of our son :) ) and it is stellar at that, cheaper than equivalent hard-drive-based MP3 players with giant screens. It's an incredibly sexy little device and I certainly would get one again. You can also surf the web with it, play videos, etc.

If you're shooting soccer with a 55mm lens, you better hope your kids play on a really, really small field. That's awfully wide for sports shooting. :scared:
I don't understand this at all. Who ever said that someone would be shooting with a single lens?

I think that's a typo. It should read "The vehicles move too quickly for AF to keep up, assuming your aren't using a 1-series Canon with a fast focusing USM lens." ;-)
Oh please. :sad2:

[MarkBarbieri]

As for PS3 vs Wii, the recent GDC was interesting as the consensus seemed to be that Nintendo stumbled badly and Sony hit one out of the park.

Are you smoking crack? Game developers have been dropping and delaying PS3 releases like rats leaving a sinking ship. Sales of the PS3 have been under every analysts' estimates. Simultaenously, Wii development support has been increasing like crazy and stores still can't keep them in stock.

Perhaps Sony tried to hard to follow the Aston Martin business model (which, incidentally Ford is either selling or just sold) and built a technincal tour-de-force without sufficient regards for how important sales are for inspiring software support and without sufficient regards to real-life usability.

You can call innovation a gimmick all you want, but after having lived with a Wii for 5 months, I can tell you that my kids and the neighborhood kids still love it. The cool thing is that non-games love it too. See that recent AP article about how the Wii has been a big hit at retirement homes?

As for the DS touchscreen being a failure, your statement is, um, at odds with the facts. I've bought three of them and I can tell you that most of our games use it and use it pretty well. Once again, it's not just appearling to gamers either. My mother loves playing Soduko on the DS I got her. It's really easy and intuitive beacuse she can write numbers on the screen. There is a reason that Nintendo stock has been on a big rise lately...DS and Wii sales have been fantastic. My only regret is that I didn't get a DS sooner. If I had, I would have invested in Nintendo a while ago and made a lot more money.

I find your comment that "the only downside [to the PSP] has been the lack of solid games." That's like saying that the only weakness of a digital camera is it's weak sensor. The PSP is a game machine. Not having good game support is a big part of what caused it to dramatically unperform expectations. It was mega-hits like Nintendogs and Brain Age (both of which brought large numbers of people to the platform that had never considered handheld gaming systems) that made the DS such an extraordinary success.

As tempted as I was to short Sony over the obvious PS3 fiasco (a system launch that will be studied in future business schools for its ineptness), it's not a big enough component of such a large and diversified company to necessarily drag the whole thing downward.

The really telling thing for me was an article that came out a few months after the DS and PSP launches. As hard as it is to believe now, PSP sales were head of the DS at that point. The interesting thing was that surveys showed that usage of the DS dwarfed the PSP. People were buying technology in the PSP and finding it to not be very fun. People were actually playing with their DSes. I confirmed this with a coworker (hardcore gamer) who owned both and said that his PSP sat on the shelf while he and his son fought over who got to use the DS. I should have known immediately that the game was over and that Nintendo would win.

Sony has to learn that it isn't just about cutting edge hardware. People want to have fun (like Nintendo shareholders have been having).

[ukcatfan]

Actually they continued Beta support until they started planning their DVD release, they(Sony) did not release a VHS player until late 88 but they continued with BETA even though everyone knew it was dead(IE Rolling Stone Cover, Married with Children episode).


Again it has to do with your point of view, I dont think it was "out of the blue" when they discontinued any of the examples you have stated. The writing was on the wall, if you chose to read it. In my opinion, they went with some of those technologies TOO LONG.

Sorry, I almost missed your reply with all of the video game talk.

I know and willingly admit that they continued to support and even manufacture new Beta equipment up until recently, but that was commercial support and not consumer support. Yes, you could still buy a player if your old one broke and so on, but b/c Sony made a decision to not push the format, the content manufacturers stopped selling content. Like Mark said about the games, what point is it to have a nice piece of equipment if you cannot buy any content for it. That is what I mean by abandonment of their consumer customers. With their size and strength, they could have forced the content providers to keep Beta going, but Sony gave up and moved the product line to a commercial one.

I apply this to the A100 as speculation. They very well might keep the line going for 100 years, but then again they might never even produce an upgrade to the A100 either. In the timeframe that it has been out, most other manufacturers have released two or three new models.

Sony may have shipped a bunch of units and could even be profiting from it, but that does not mean that the product is meeting Sony's ROI requirements. Just b/c something is popular and making money does not mean that it is doing well enough that the money could not be spent elsewhere in the company to bring in more money. If Sony finds that the money could be better spent elsewhere, they will drop DSLR support quicker than anyone can blink. The DSLR product is a tiny part of their overall business. For companies like Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, and Fuji it is a larger share of overall sales so they are more dedicated to the success.

I probably still will not convince you, but that is how I feel about Sony. I have seen two different friends drop big $$$ on DAT and MiniDisc only to stop using it within a year.

Kevin

[Groucho]

I can agree with most of your post but I would not consider the number of messages on chat boards as an indicator of sales numbers.
I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I don't have sales numbers but it certainly appears that the Pentax community is more active than the Sony/Minolta one. There are a few different Pentax-only forums in addition to the subforums on the bigger sites, a mailing list, etc... there's a lot of enthusiasm out there. I also understand that used Minolta lenses are still pretty cheap while used Pentax lenses have gone up dramatically in value.

The forum message count was, as I said, totally unscientific.

[Anewman]

I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I don't have sales numbers but it...

I posted 2006 numbers for you.:)


I also understand that used Minolta lenses are still pretty cheap while used Pentax lenses have gone up dramatically in value.

I agree, so anyone considering a purchase should factor this in as an advantage for the Sony.

[Groucho]

As for Mark... is this the same Mark who refuses to support smaller companies because he's afraid they don't have enough support, or may pack up and abandon their supporters? See Sega's last couple of consoles, see the N64, see the GameCube, see the VirtualBoy... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Nintendo's had a much higher percentage of failure in the games arena than Sony has. Yet because Sony has been so utterly dominating, it's fun to try to take them down... well, don't count them out yet.

Are you smoking crack? Game developers have been dropping and delaying PS3 releases like rats leaving a sinking ship. Sales of the PS3 have been under every analysts' estimates. Simultaenously, Wii development support has been increasing like crazy and stores still can't keep them in stock.
Umm, if you read my message, I specifically said the GDC. See this article (http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/03/12/mmr/index.html) for one reference. One developer called the Wii a "piece of ****" as well as how Sony did very well at the show while Nintendo fizzled.

The cool thing is that non-games love it too. See that recent AP article about how the Wii has been a big hit at retirement homes?
Actually, I think that's the very much NOT cool thing. As an automotive fan, I am not interested in something like a Camry which attempts to appeal to the lowest common denominator. As a video game fan, I am not interested in the Wii with its rather silly controls. I can't think of any game I enjoy which would play better with such a thing. (To be fair, I don't like gamepads either. Give me a solid joystick, or steering wheel, or light gun, or trackball/keyboard combo any day. Coincidentally, I blame the popularity of gamepads on Nintendo as well, and I always used a third-party "proper" joystick with the NES.)

Put it another way, the Wii is like a Polaroid camera, designed for people who don't have interest in doing "proper" photography. :stir: :stir: :stir: :)

As for the DS touchscreen being a failure, your statement is, um, at odds with the facts. I've bought three of them and I can tell you that most of our games use it and use it pretty well.
We see reviews of most DS games (for some reason, we have the often-mediocre "X Play" games review show on a season pass on the Tivo) and most games do little with it and very few actually use it in a way that enhances the game. Traditional games just don't work well with a touch-screen, which is one of the reasons that PDA gaming is so painful. Most DS games are not significantly different than if they were played on a single-screen system like the GBA.

I find your comment that "the only downside [to the PSP] has been the lack of solid games." That's like saying that the only weakness of a digital camera is it's weak sensor.
Nonsense. The console itself cannot be blamed for the games. The PSP is an extremely impressive piece of hardware, much more so than any other handheld ever made. There are many very good games for it. Unfortunately, there are also many lousy games.

Part of the problem is price, as well. If you want to hop in the way-back machine, remember the Atari Lynx? Came out around the same time as the original Gameboy? The GB was a primitive black-and-white lump with ghastly graphics, but it was fairly cheap. The Lynx had cutting-edge hardware and a beautiful screen - furthermore, nearly every title released was a winner. Unfortunately, marketing and cost killed it off. However, it was still a total blast having one (we've actually got a couple of 'em) and there's plenty of terrific titles. Same with the PSP.

And FWIW, my wife has a GBA that she used to play incessantly. After she got the PSP, I don't think the GBA was even turned on again. Now it's all Lumines, Loco Roco, Dungeon Siege, etc.

As tempted as I was to short Sony over the obvious PS3 fiasco (a system launch that will be studied in future business schools for its ineptness), it's not a big enough component of such a large and diversified company to necessarily drag the whole thing downward.
Oh, c'mon. It's no worse than the original X-Box introduction. That system took a few years to get any kind of traction in the marketplace. The PS3 is still sold out everywhere you look. As the price inevitably drops, it will sell more. I don't think there's much danger of it being a failure.

[Groucho]

I posted 2006 numbers for you.:)
Gotcha. I saw the Sony ones but overlooked the Pentax ones.

Hmm, nipping at their heels despite not being carried by any of the major "big box" retailers... not too shabby. I'd be surprised if they didn't overtake them this year. I think they probably have in other countries.

I agree, so anyone considering a purchase should factor this in as an advantage for the Sony.
Fair enough. :)

[Anewman]

Hmm, nipping at their heels despite not being carried by any of the major "big box" retailers... not too shabby. I'd be surprised if they didn't overtake them this year. I think they probably have in other countries.




Is that how you see the numbers????:confused3

I see it as Sony having a single release MID YEAR out selling the entire PENTAX line that was available for 12 months...

And where exactly do you get that Pentax was not carried in "any" of the "big box" retailers???? Do you not consider Walmart, Best buy and Circuit City to be "big box" retailers?
Cuz they all Sold Pentax DSLRs last year.

but I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.

I think they probably have in other countries.

Article linked is based on the "2006 Worldwide Digital Camera Market Share" report.

[ukcatfan]

With as popular as Minolta was, there is potentially a large market out there for Sony to do respectably. The market is large enough to handle more than just a few companies. The concern from my side is that Sony might not think it is profitable enough to keep it going. They are a huge company and will cut the fat of the areas not making a large enough return. They problem is that unless you are on the inside, you have no idea if they are making the ROI that they want. Financial results are also in the eye of the beholder.

Of all DSLR manufacturers, Sony is the most likely to cut it out of the product line b/c it represents so small of a portion of their overall business. The number of shipments is way too little information to use to make an educated decision. Just b/c they shipped 326K units, how do you know that they do not have another 500K sitting in the warehouse collecting dust b/c they overshot sales estimates? This data could be available, but you have not presented it, so the doubt remains in my eyes. Pentax announced that they were shipping 100% of their inventory and had backorders for '06.

Lastly, I think Sony is missing out a little on the Minolta mount by not promoting that enough. The A100 I saw in the store had no mention of the Minolta mount.

Kevin

[MarkBarbieri]

Of all DSLR manufacturers, Sony is the most likely to cut it out of the product line b/c it represents so small of a portion of their overall business. The number of shipments is way too little information to use to make an educated decision. Just b/c they shipped 326K units, how do you know that they do not have another 500K sitting in the warehouse collecting dust b/c they overshot sales estimates? This data could be available, but you have not presented it, so the doubt remains in my eyes. Pentax announced that they were shipping 100% of their inventory and had backorders for '06.

I agree that number of shipments is not by itself a predictor of longevity. Some pluses that haven't been mentioned in Sony's favor include the fact that they make their own sensors and that they are a huge player digital camera systems overall. That means that they can share the cost of a lot of R&D and components across both P&S and DSLR systems.

The one area that they are weak is optics. I think that in the near future, the battles will be fought more over the eletronics and imaging side of the business rather than the optics side, so that probably shouldn't hurt them. Sure, Canon is doing some amazing things with diffractive optics, but that's a niche play.

Don't be too quick to play the "bigger part of the business" and "needed financial return" cards for Pentax either. Pentax lost money in the camera division each of the last two years. Their camera division was not the largest division in the company and that was before Hoya (who didn't even make cameras) bought them. In the press releases announcing the acquisition, the Hoya CEO spoke mainly about the acquisiton of medical systems and even said that was the main reason that they bought the company. When they listed their divisions, the camera division was always the last listed.

Other factors that favor Sony over Hoya Pentax in the DSLR market is that Sony has enormous consumer product divisions. Consumer sales area small part of Hoya's business. Sony makes the sensors for both the Sony DSLR and the Nikon DSLR. I can't recall whether Sony or Samsung make them for Pentax. Sony also has lots of experience with eletronics and image processing, including the being the market leader in both professional and consumer video cameras.

On the other hand, if Sony does decide to drop DSLRs from their lineup, I'm willing to bet that the Minolta lens mount will die off completely. If Pentax drops cameras, it will probably be because they sold the practice to Samsung. Samsung wants to grow their camera and camcorder business and the Pentax lineup would be useful to them. They already partner with them, so an acquisition wouldn't be too big of a step.

[photo_chick]

Ok, as far as my PSP comments, my DH set me straight on ripping games to the memory stick. I am not othe primary user for that (I only watch video on it, and normally I do that on my iPod). Although he said they keep coming out with firmware updates that prevent some of the emulators from working.

On the PS3... My DH is a game dev. So there is a lot of console talk in my house. I think the main problem with the failing PS3 (when devs will not make games for it, it is failing) is the price point. The rushed production that Sony ends up doing to get the product out creates many defects.(anyone remember the PSP's and the dead pixels in the first two runs) And why the heck did you take away my Dual Shock Sony, oh thats right you lost the license to that! You can't really compare the PS3 to the Wii though. THey are different machines for different audiences really. They just both came out around the same time. I, as a former Mac user, have gone over to the enemy an now love my 360.

As far as dropping product lines.... Sony has been bashed a bit here by myself included. I hear Pentax gurus touting that Pentax can use every lens Pentax has made... I have 2 that it cannot. They are for my Pentax 110 SLR. A product line that was dropped fairly quickly I might add. Too bad too, it is a fun camera to use. I like Pentax, Sony is evil. But technically it can't use every single lens Pentax has made. 35mm leneses perhaps. But that is not the line I always hear.

And don't knock my lens choice. The lens you use is a personal decision and completely subjective. If that is the way I like to shoot, then it is my choice. There is nothing wrong with it, JUst like it migh tbe another persons choice to capture the sweat on their kids face with a telephoto lens at the game! I said it works for me but might not for others. Again back to the whole photography is art and art is subjective.


Now I am off, I have a date with my 4 year old to play Lego Star Wars 2.

[ukcatfan]

If Pentax drops cameras, it will probably be because they sold the practice to Samsung. Samsung wants to grow their camera and camcorder business and the Pentax lineup would be useful to them. They already partner with them, so an acquisition wouldn't be too big of a step.

I have been wondering that myself. It seems like there might be some sort of agreement where Samsung has backed off of the US market for the DSLRs and left it to Pentax. I do not even know anywhere that sells their DSLRs. I also read recently that Samsung has a new CMOS sensor coming out. You might be on to something here.

Kevin

[photo_chick]

I thought a lot of Samsung's stuff was actually made by Kyocera, or is it the other way around?

[ukcatfan]

I thought a lot of Samsung's stuff was actually made by Kyocera, or is it the other way around?

I am not sure on the p&s models(or anything else they sell for that matter), but the DSLRs are re-branded Pentax models. The names and the color band on the lens are the only real differences. Their K10D equiv. model does not support the Pentax RAW mode due to DNG being supported.

Given the CMOS story, that puts some credibility behind Samsung pushing for market share with digital cameras and possibly buying the Pentax camera division. http://www.steves-digicams.com/diginews.html#samsung_sensor
I think Samsung passed Nikon in market share in '06 moving to fifth.

Kevin

P.S. I realized after posting that this could be misleading. The CMOS sensor mentioned is not a DSLR sensor. I just mean that they are interested in expanding their sensor market share and therefore could end up being the supplier of sensors for the next generations of Pentax DSLRs. If so, it would make a lot of sense to just buy up the Pentax camera division so they could have more control on the development end.

[MICKEY88]

I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I don't have sales numbers but it certainly appears that the Pentax community is more active than the Sony/Minolta one. There are a few different Pentax-only forums in addition to the subforums on the bigger sites, a mailing list, etc... there's a lot of enthusiasm out there. I also understand that used Minolta lenses are still pretty cheap while used Pentax lenses have gone up dramatically in value.

The forum message count was, as I said, totally unscientific.

that's because Minolta/Sony owners are too busy using their cameras to sit and talk about them...

[MICKEY88]

as far as Sony dropping the DLSR line, I'm putting my money on them keeping it, they wouldn't have spent the money they did to buy Minoltas factory,design team..etc. if they weren't serious, they have a big share of the digital P&S market and they know that those numbers will grow even bigger by selling dslrs and growing the size of their followers...

they have announced 2 follow up cameras to the A100, and yes other companies have released a few while they've released none...the same thing happened with minolta in the late 80's early 90's..Nikon and canon were battling each other to keep coming out with new models, and they were having a lot of returns for repair, while Minolta took the time to get their cameras right, before releasing them..I worked for ritz camera at the time and our return numbers[percentage of sales per brand} for canon and nikon were way higher than Minolta

[photo_chick]

What about the fact that Sony is consitantly posting losses? How is that goigng to impact a camera line?

[GrumpyOne]

Sony may have shipped a bunch of units and could even be profiting from it, but that does not mean that the product is meeting Sony's ROI requirements. Just b/c something is popular and making money does not mean that it is doing well enough that the money could not be spent elsewhere in the company to bring in more money. If Sony finds that the money could be better spent elsewhere, they will drop DSLR support quicker than anyone can blink. The DSLR product is a tiny part of their overall business. For companies like Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, and Fuji it is a larger share of overall sales so they are more dedicated to the success.

I probably still will not convince you, but that is how I feel about Sony. I have seen two different friends drop big $$$ on DAT and MiniDisc only to stop using it within a year.

Kevin
I wanted to extend this with an example. The online multi-player gaming market is huge now but it wasn't always this way. Before World of Warcraft with its 8 million subscribers, a game was considered a big hit with 250,000. Sony owns the rights to a few well known games and the rights to make games based on a few more. One they own is Everquest, another they own(ed) the rights to was Star Wars.

Sony developed a game based on the Star Wars universe that was unique and extremely popular. At its height, it had as many subscribers as all but the most popular Asian games or Everquest itself.

Then Blizzard produced World of Warcraft with sold more during the first week than Star Wars Galaxies did in a year. Sony figured, "this is Star Wars, if they can get that many subscribers, we can to. We just need to redo the product." So they did.

The resulting product annoyed a lot of subscribers and flocks of people canceled their subscription to a game they loved (I was one). Others stuck it out because the changes didn't affect them as much. Subscriber nunmbers dropped rather than rose.

Sony tried again six months later. WoW had kept climbing and Sony wanted a bigger piece of the pie. The changes this time were even more drastic and more people fled the game.

When all is said and done, Sony gambled with a product that was pulling in 50 million per year and would have kept printing money for a few years even if they didn't invest a drop into new product, they could have had an easy 100m profit. It wasn't enough. They saw where they wanted more reached for it and dropped what they had.

I will never rely on Sony when it comes to any product that depends on continuing support, they are too fickle.

[photo_chick]

I am not even going to comment on how Sony dropped the ball on Star Wars Galaxies. SOE is an entirely different evilness, and probably the part of the whole company I have the most disdain for.

May Bunnie O'Hare rest in peace.

[Anewman]

What about the fact that Sony is consitantly posting losses? How is that goigng to impact a camera line?


My guess would be...

If they have not shut down the gaming division that has posted some of the biggest losses the company has ever seen, they will obviously not shut down the very profitable digital imaging division.

[steery1]

Thanks guys, for an interesting and lively debate. :thumbsup2

Unfortunately I am still deliberating which way to go. After listening to your great input and doing some resarch myself I think it will boil down to the lenses.
I intend to eventually get a 18 - 200mm, 50mm prime, 100mm macro and something up to 300ish (In or around these values. Please feel free to comment on my choices :) )
Ideally Id like to buy pre-owned for these.

My problem is - Which range of Pentax lenses will suit the K100/10d and still retain the auto focus, exposure etc?

Also do all the Minolta range of lenses retain the full functionality of the Alpha?

The relative ease of picking these lenses up pre-owned and them actually working well on the new body will go a long way in helping me decide which way to go. :)

[MarkBarbieri]

The Hoya deal is off for now.

Here are some quotes from today's WSJ:

"Japan's Pentax Corp. (7750.TO) Tuesday scrapped its planned merger with Hoya Corp. (7741.TO) and chose an opponent of the merger as its new president"

"[Pentax] said, however, it was open to seeking other ways of integrating operations with Hoya, an optical products maker."

"Pentax's board appointed Takashi Watanuki, a corporate vice president who is opposed to a merger with Hoya, as its new president effective immediately."

"Pentax generated a scant net profit of Y805 million on sales of Y142.2 billion in the year ended March last year. Hoya was much more profitable, with a net profit of Y75.6 billion on sales of Y344.2 billion."

"Hoya said in a press release Tuesday its board decided to continue its merger talks with Pentax and that a tender offer was one option. "

"On the Tokyo Stock Exchange Tuesday, Pentax shares ended down 3.9% at Y769. Hoya closed down 1.2% at Y4,090."

The full story is here: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20070410-701424.html?mod=wsjcrmain (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20070410-701424.html?mod=wsjcrmain)(link requires subscription).

[Groucho]

Ok, as far as my PSP comments, my DH set me straight on ripping games to the memory stick. I am not othe primary user for that (I only watch video on it, and normally I do that on my iPod). Although he said they keep coming out with firmware updates that prevent some of the emulators from working.
That's close but not quite 100% right... what's happening is that some newer games require the most current firmware at the time of their release. So if you are on an older firmware, you can still play everything released up to that point, but not the newest games. The hackers are doing a pretty good job keeping current though, my wife's is on the 3.02 firmware and works great with emulators and games from the memory stick. There may be more current ones out there, I haven't checked in a little while.

And why the heck did you take away my Dual Shock Sony, oh thats right you lost the license to that! You can't really compare the PS3 to the Wii though. THey are different machines for different audiences really. They just both came out around the same time. I, as a former Mac user, have gone over to the enemy an now love my 360.
I never cared for "rumble", I certainly don't mind if they drop it. I also don't like that it's infiltrated other controllers - I was trying to play Test Drive Unlimited on my PC with my force-feedback steering wheel, and it has "rumble" effects as well as the "normal" force-feedback. Unfortunately, this meant that as soon as you started going at any kind of speed, the wheel would jerk left and right - "rumble"! This made your car swerve and usually crash soon afterwards. I had to turn the effects way down just to make it playable. Really a lousy decision on their part.

But you are absolutely right on the Wii vs PS3. It's really PS3 vs X360. The X360 certainly has a lead now, but I still think that race is far from over. Remember than most consoles have had a lot of bad games at line-up (including the PS1, PS2, and X-box)... and also that the X-box was pretty much a dud for a while before MS finally started bringing on devs. Then they ported Halo to the PC - I played it to the end and was astounded at how incredibly repetitive and dull it was. No thanks... I'll skip Halo 2 if/when it gets ported. (I can't stand playing FPSs on a console, so no danger of my playing them there.)

[Groucho]

Unfortunately I am still deliberating which way to go. After listening to your great input and doing some resarch myself I think it will boil down to the lenses.
I intend to eventually get a 18 - 200mm, 50mm prime, 100mm macro and something up to 300ish (In or around these values. Please feel free to comment on my choices :) )
Ideally Id like to buy pre-owned for these.
I would avoid an 18-200mm myself, I think you'll make too many optical compromises. For the Pentax side, I'd lean towards the kit lens and the 50-200mm lens, they are good matches. Still, a lot of people do use 18-200mms and like them for the convenience, but I'll go for optics over convenience. Just a personal choice.

My problem is - Which range of Pentax lenses will suit the K100/10d and still retain the auto focus, exposure etc?
Every Pentax lens will have all the features that it had on a film camera, and more - ie, you'll get focus confirmation on manual-focus lenses.

Finding if a lens is autofocus or not should be easy, and you will probably want to make sure that the aperture ring has an "A" setting. It's extremely unlikely that you'll find an autofocus lens that doesn't have an "A" setting on the aperture ring, so focus is probably the main thing you'll be looking for.

If the aperture ring doesn't have an "A" setting, you'll need to hit the AE-L button to stop down the lens temporarily to take a meter reading. Pretty quick and easy, but it is an extra step and one that can become a bother if you're in rapidly changing light conditions.

[steery1]

Every Pentax lens will have all the features that it had on a film camera, and more - ie, you'll get focus confirmation on manual-focus lenses.

Finding if a lens is autofocus or not should be easy, and you will probably want to make sure that the aperture ring has an "A" setting. It's extremely unlikely that you'll find an autofocus lens that doesn't have an "A" setting on the aperture ring, so focus is probably the main thing you'll be looking for.

If the aperture ring doesn't have an "A" setting, you'll need to hit the AE-L button to stop down the lens temporarily to take a meter reading. Pretty quick and easy, but it is an extra step and one that can become a bother if you're in rapidly changing light conditions.

Sorry if Im sounding like a thicko :blush: but would this include third party lenses made for the Pentax 35mm cameras, ie Tamron, Tokina, Sigma etc, so long as theyhave an "A" setting? :)

[ukcatfan]

Sorry if Im sounding like a thicko :blush: but would this include third party lenses made for the Pentax 35mm cameras, ie Tamron, Tokina, Sigma etc, so long as theyhave an "A" setting? :)

They must have that "A" setting in order to be able to do auto aperture. There are also some lenses that have no aperture ring at all. These are auto aperture lenses as well. This is not an indicator of the auto focus abilities. Check this website out http://www.photodo.com/products.html. Look at the mount section. The Pentax K SMC, Pentax K SMC-A, and Pentax K SMC-M are the manual focus mounts. The Pentax K SMC-DA, Pentax K SMC-F, Pentax K SMC-FA, and Pentax K SMC-FAJ are the auto focus mounts. All will work with the Pentax DSLRs, but may function differently. The other Pentax mounts listed are not compatible on their own, but sometimes can be used with an adapter as a MF only though. Groucho, did I say that all correctly?

Unfortunately, the third party companies do not always make it obvious which mount it is, so sometimes you have to do a little digging.

Kevin

[steery1]

Thanks for the link. Ill check it out :)

[photo_chick]

Then they ported Halo to the PC - I played it to the end and was astounded at how incredibly repetitive and dull it was. No thanks... I'll skip Halo 2 if/when it gets ported. (I can't stand playing FPSs on a console, so no danger of my playing them there.)

DH is not a hacker and since he makes games he tends to be very supportive of using games according to their license.

Some like rumble, some don't. But then that is why you can turn the rumble off. Personally I feel cheated that the American market did not get the trance vibe over here.

Yes, the original Xbox got off to a slow start. I did not get one for like a year after they came out because of lack of games. Halo 2 is out for the PC if you have Vista. It was one of the Vista lauch titles. I don't think there are plans to port it to XP. Probably not with Halo 3 coming out this year and Halo Wars coming out too. Halo 2 has more story than Halo 1, IMO. But it is still a "see how muck sticky you can splatter" game. MY DS worships the Master Chief though. I have to play shooters on the console, I just can't seem to make my fingers work to play them on the PC (as if my horrid typing does not show that) . I prefer games like Final Fantasy myself, with a more detailed story line. Or games where I don't have to think much (sometimes that is nice too) like Katamari Damacy (just turn that infernal music off) Yes, I realize I just listed 2 examples mainly available for Sony platforms.:scared1:

Oh, and we do have a Wii. I am just not a big Mario factory fan, however my kids are so it gets played often.

Now all that was wayyyyyyy off topic and I get phalangeal diarrhea when it come to talking about games so I will stop.

So OP, made any decisions yet????

[steery1]

Im continually swaying between the Pentax K100D and the Sony. Im also now considering the Pentax k10D. (I think the spec is more similair to the Sony than the K100D)

At the moment the Sony is calling me the loudest. Its less expensive than the K10D. But I'm still undecided. :confused:

It really is a pain, I'm always indecisive. Wish I could just pick one and be happy with it. Never that simple though. :laughing:

I'll definitely decide this week though. It'll either be in my hand or on its way within the next few days. The pre-owned lenses and their price/availability will sway it for me. .........(I think :))

[ukcatfan]

Im continually swaying between the Pentax K100D and the Sony. Im also now considering the Pentax k10D. (I think the spec is more similair to the Sony than the K100D)

At the moment the Sony is calling me the loudest. Its less expensive than the K10D. But I'm still undecided. :confused:

It really is a pain, I'm always indecisive. Wish I could just pick one and be happy with it. Never that simple though. :laughing:

I'll definitely decide this week though. It'll either be in my hand or on its way within the next few days. The pre-owned lenses and their price/availability will sway it for me. .........(I think :))

I bought used lenses from http://www.keh.com and I was very happy with them. They seem to be very honest about their grading system. You have to keep checking back with them as the inventory can change daily. Ebay is another common source of used lenses, but just make sure that you are buying from a reputable source.

Kevin

[ukcatfan]

I have one last question to ask. Have you actually handled any of them? If not, I would not make a decision yet. You do not want to get it only to realize that you hate the way it feels in your hands. This is part of what sold me on the K100D, but I did not even consider the A100 b/c it was out of my range.

Kevin

[handicap18]

Thanks guys, for an interesting and lively debate. :thumbsup2

Unfortunately I am still deliberating which way to go. After listening to your great input and doing some resarch myself I think it will boil down to the lenses.
I intend to eventually get a 18 - 200mm, 50mm prime, 100mm macro and something up to 300ish (In or around these values. Please feel free to comment on my choices :) )
Ideally Id like to buy pre-owned for these.

My problem is - Which range of Pentax lenses will suit the K100/10d and still retain the auto focus, exposure etc?

Also do all the Minolta range of lenses retain the full functionality of the Alpha?

The relative ease of picking these lenses up pre-owned and them actually working well on the new body will go a long way in helping me decide which way to go. :)

I too would not go the 18-200mm route unless you go Nikon. The Tamron and Sigma 18-200mm's while a nice range are only going to be good outdoors in good light once you get past 130mm or so. The widest aperture is f/6.3 which is not wide at all which will make focusing that much harder. You'd be better off with the Sigma 18-125mm. Had Nikon not come out with an 18-135mm I would have gotten the Sigma 18-125mm.

Something else to keep in mind regarding 3rd party lenses. While they do make lenses with Nikon and Canon mounts, they do also make many with Pentax mounts. I don't think I can say the same for Sony's Minolta mount. Since its currently only 1 dSLR body it will be much much harder to find 3rd party lenses for the Sony. I could be wrong though. Just something to think about and research if your thinking about 3rd party lenses.

I'm not suggesting all your lenses need to be 3rd party, but Sigma, Tamron and Tokina do make some great lenses that are definately worth buying and stack up just as good as some of the higher priced camera makers lenses.

[steery1]

I have one last question to ask. Have you actually handled any of them? If not, I would not make a decision yet. You do not want to get it only to realize that you hate the way it feels in your hands.

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

[steery1]

I too would not go the 18-200mm route unless you go Nikon. The Tamron and Sigma 18-200mm's while a nice range are only going to be good outdoors in good light once you get past 130mm or so. The widest aperture is f/6.3 which is not wide at all which will make focusing that much harder. You'd be better off with the Sigma 18-125mm. Had Nikon not come out with an 18-135mm I would have gotten the Sigma 18-125mm.

That sounds like good advice. Thanks :thumbsup2

[ukcatfan]

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

The weight has to come down to personal preferences. The K100D and the A100 are almost the exact same weight if I remember correctly. The K10D is a little heavier. I personally like that, but you may not.

I had never taken a serious look at the A100 reviews, but now that I have, it might not be as usable at high ISOs as C,N,&P cameras. Canon generally wins this category followed closely by Nikon and then Pentax. For it to have a specific mention in the reviews would make me check it out some more. The Pentax models have been praised for getting so close to Canon's noise levels where the Sony was criticized. It could just be the mood the reviewers were in, but still worth researching if you plan to use that.

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc. I personally shoot RAW unless I am running out of space or want more frames for a burst shot.

Kevin

[steery1]

One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc

Where did you find this ukcatfan? I missed that one.
I know little about shooting RAW and PP (the last time I picked up an SLR in anger was maybe 10 years ago before that was widely available.
But I will definitely be finding out about it soon.

[Anewman]

I had never taken a serious look at the A100 reviews, but now that I have, it might not be as usable at high ISOs as C,N,&P cameras.


From DPREVIEWS review of the K10d(page 23)

As well as shooting our studio test scene at each camera's lowest sensitivity we also shot it at ISO 800 and 1600. At ISO 800 the K10D delivers about the same detail as the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 with the Canon EOS 30D looking cleaner and sharper. At ISO 1600 it's more difficult to pick a winner, levels of detail are similar however the Canon EOS 30D perhaps has cleaner shadow (dark) areas.


Would that also mean the you feel that the K10D is also not as usable at high ISOs??


One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc.

Also from the K10d review

Cons
Turning up sharpness setting doesn't deliver crisper edges

Pentax may well have been aiming for a smooth film-like appearance but I at least feel that the inability to tweak this out by increasing sharpness is a mistake. That said it's unlikely you'll see this difference in any print up to A3 size, it's a 100% view thing so you have to decide if that's important to you or not. To get that absolute crisp appearance you'll need to shoot RAW,

[ukcatfan]

From DPREVIEWS review of the K10d(page 23)

Quote:
As well as shooting our studio test scene at each camera's lowest sensitivity we also shot it at ISO 800 and 1600. At ISO 800 the K10D delivers about the same detail as the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 with the Canon EOS 30D looking cleaner and sharper. At ISO 1600 it's more difficult to pick a winner, levels of detail are similar however the Canon EOS 30D perhaps has cleaner shadow (dark) areas.


Would that also mean the you feel that the K10D is also not as usable at high ISOs??


I was basing my comments on the A100 review where Phil says: "The A100's sensor is at its best between ISO 100 and 400, delivering fairly noise free and sharp images with plenty of detail (especially if you shoot RAW). Above this and the A100 loses out in comparisons to Canon's excellent CMOS sensor which maintains more detail and exhibits less noise." and also on Jeff at DCResources A100 review comments of:

"What I didn't care for:

A bit noisier than the competition (especially Canon) at ISO 800 and above
Color saturation/exposure changes when ISO goes from 800 to 1600"

As I said, I am not saying that it is noisier, but it would not hurt to do a little research and some comparison shots to see if it is b/c these reviews seem to suggest that. Also, these reviews are not exactly scientific, but again, it casts some doubt, so why not look further in to it with personal trials. (BTW, when the OP goes looking, be sure to bring a blank memory card with you so you can put them through the paces and then go back home to compare)

Also from the K10d review

Quote:
Cons
Turning up sharpness setting doesn't deliver crisper edges

Pentax may well have been aiming for a smooth film-like appearance but I at least feel that the inability to tweak this out by increasing sharpness is a mistake. That said it's unlikely you'll see this difference in any print up to A3 size, it's a 100% view thing so you have to decide if that's important to you or not. To get that absolute crisp appearance you'll need to shoot RAW,




One last thing to add. The K10D's JPG processing seems to be tuned towards the user doing some PP work where the K100D's is more geared towards an end product. If you plan to use JPG with the K10D either plan to do some PP or manually change the JPG default settings towards more sharpening, saturation, etc. I personally shoot RAW unless I am running out of space or want more frames for a burst shot.

Kevin

WOW. Now I am being criticized for pointing out a weakness of a Pentax??? I just can't win around here. :lmao: No hard feelings, I just thought it was funny. :thumbsup2

Jeff spent a little more time than Phil tweaking the settings on the K10D and had this to say:

"So what's the bottom line here? Shooting JPEGs straight out of the box isn't a good idea, as they'll be soft and dull in color. You can resolve this by shooting RAW, increasing in-camera sharpening/contrast/saturation, or just using the bright image tone setting. Once you do I think you'll be more than pleased with the K10's output."

Go here to read more on what he did: http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/pentax/k10d-review/


Like I said before, the JPGs straight out of the camera are not the best on the K10D. If that is what you want, then you will need to do a little maniputation of the camera settings or go with a different camera. You could also PP, but would likely not get the best results compared to just changing the settings. It would not be an issue with me as I prefer RAW, but some do not.

Kevin

[Anewman]

I was basing my comments on the A100 review where Phil says...

As I said, I am not saying that it is noisier, but it would not hurt to do a little research and some comparison shots to see if it is b/c these reviews seem to suggest that.



I understand what you based your comments on, so I based my question(not answered) on comments from the same exact source "suggesting" that high ISO performance was very similar(not better) from the K10D. If it is a concern with one, why would it not be a concern with the other?


WOW. Now I am being criticized for pointing out a weakness of a Pentax??? I just can't win around here. :lmao: No hard feelings, I just thought it was funny. :thumbsup2



"Criticized"????

Nope just posting a counter opinion on a message board, imagine that...
:rotfl2:

You stated that raising in-camera sharpness fixes the lack of sharpness in out of camera jpegs from the K10d. I simply posted that at least one reviewer felt that your suggestion did not solve the issue. I do agree that the K10D produces great images if shot in RAW, as did the review I quoted.


And yes the camera was "tuned" that way:rotfl2: :rotfl2:

[jann1033]

Have handled the K100D and found it quite comfortable. Noticed it was considerably heavier than the Canon 400D. I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.
I haven't had a chance to "feel" the Sony yet. The last one sold half an hour before I arrived in the store.
I'll be out and about on my quest tomorrow though and hopefully I can handle them both together and see how I feel then.

remember you are going to add 1-4+lbs with a lens, another lb or 2 with a flash.to me that would be a very bad thing since my limit is around 5 lbs. others might not care. i was concerned bout the rebel xt weight with a larger lens but it pretty much takes me to the end of my range with that.

hehe.. interesting reviews... so that piece of plastic junk canon is cleaner and sharper than the pentax huh ( snicker snicker);)

[ukcatfan]

This just reminds me why I do not take Phil's reviews too seriously. He sometimes contradicts himself, seems to let personal hang-ups influence reviews, and never seems to go that extra mile to benefit the end user. I have been the happiest with DCResource and Imaging-Resource lately. Steve's is decent, but it seems more like a functional overview than a real review.

Kevin

[steery1]

I kinda like this little nugget...................

DigitalCameraInfo - 11/29/2006 - reviews the 10 megapixel Sony Alpha A100 and here’s the verdict.
“The Sony α (alpha) A100 is a good value for users who want stabilization, dust control and 10 megapixels, but don’t mind a clunky interface and slow operation. It’s a snapshot camera with some very appealing bells and whistles, and it will be a very good fit for casual photographers who want a DSLR, but don’t need one.

This sort of sums me up in an unflattering way :) But I probably will mind "a clunky interface and slow operation"
Just about to head out to feel up a Sony, see for myself. I'll come back and let you know how I get on. :)

[steery1]

Unfortunately was not able to test out the Sony A100D. The one local camera store that did have it in stock hadn't any charge in the battery :rolleyes2
Did look at the Pentax K10d again though (it did feel good and I was happy with the dials etc.) and noticed how considerably larger the viewfinder was than the Canon 400D.
*Think* the Sonys viewfinder is comparable with the Pentax.
As everywhere is sold out of the Sony round here I'm gonna order it from Amazon, get a good feel of it, take a few shots and if I decide I prefer the Pentax then I'll send it back.
Thats where I am at the minute and thanks to everyone who helped me reach this point. :)
Will let you know how I get on :)

:thanks:

[Groucho]

They must have that "A" setting in order to be able to do auto aperture. There are also some lenses that have no aperture ring at all. These are auto aperture lenses as well. This is not an indicator of the auto focus abilities. Check this website out http://www.photodo.com/products.html. Look at the mount section. The Pentax K SMC, Pentax K SMC-A, and Pentax K SMC-M are the manual focus mounts. The Pentax K SMC-DA, Pentax K SMC-F, Pentax K SMC-FA, and Pentax K SMC-FAJ are the auto focus mounts. All will work with the Pentax DSLRs, but may function differently. The other Pentax mounts listed are not compatible on their own, but sometimes can be used with an adapter as a MF only though. Groucho, did I say that all correctly?
I think that's pretty much all accurate. Third party lenses are generally going to be just as likely to be auto-aperture as the factory ones.

The only remotely modern lens that I'm aware of that doesn't have auto-aperture is the Zenitar 16mm fisheye... The auto-aperture came about, I think, some time in the '70s, and was required for shutter priority mode.

[Groucho]

Did look at the Pentax K10d again though (it did feel good and I was happy with the dials etc.) and noticed how considerably larger the viewfinder was than the Canon 400D.
The Canons generally get about the lowest marks for viewfinders and the Pentaxes get some of the best, so your observation fits in. I'm not sure about the Sony.

As for DPReview, I'm liking them less and less as time goes by. Some reviews are fairly soft on the camera, some are unnecessarily harsh... then there's Steve's, which I often like but it sometimes feels like he hasn't met a digicam that he doesn't like! :) But DPReview, which one of the most "complete" review sites, doesn't seem to be as really reliable as I'd like. And the forums - ugh! Lousy interface, lots of fights, and I've heard a few reports recently of people getting kicked off for what seem to be quite arbitrary reasons.

As for ISO... my understanding is that the K10D, A100, and D80 all use the same Sony 10mp sensor, so if you're shooting RAW, you should be more or less exactly the same results assuming you used exactly the same lens on each camera. It really comes down to speed, ergonomics, lenses, etc... not so much actual image quality as that's a wash.

[steery1]

The way I'm looking at it at the minute is...........................

Pantax K10D and Sony A100

Both have features I was on the lookout for ie - in body IS and dust reduction systems
Both have a wide selection of compatable lenses that are available pre-owned
Most other things on the two cameras being pretty equal as far as I can see.

These are features I was on the lookout for and why my search was narrowed to these two with the K100 in there too on price.

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70

So maybe you can understand why I'm leaning towards the Sony even taking into consideration the reservations some have voiced here about Sony and their practices.

[Anewman]

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70

So maybe you can understand why I'm leaning towards the Sony \

Am I reading this correctly???

the Sony is MORE EXPENSIVE???

Here in the US the Sony is on average about $200 LESS than the K10d, but if the Sony is MORE expensive I would get the Pentax.

IMO the only area where the cameras noticably differ is in the "weather seals" that the Pentax comes with, all other areas are a wash or subjective in nature(even jpeg softness on the Pentax).
Would I pay $200 extra for their seals??? Only if I had all weather sealed lenses and expected to shoot in inclimate weather on a regular basis, I am not sure if Pentax lenses are sealed or not.

[steery1]

The Sony is working out about £170GBP (thats approx $330USD) more than the Pentax K10D for the body and one kit lens. Thats the price of a decent lens. Incedently the Pentax kit lens is 18-55, whereas the Sonys is 18-70


Oops, sorry the Sony is working out $330USD less than the Pentax. :upsidedow

Cheapest I found the Sony + 18-70 kit lens = £430GBP
Cheapest I found the Pentax K10D + 18-55 kit lens = £600GBP

[steery1]

Its arrived! :thumbsup2

My brand new Sony a100 arrived today. At the moment Im reading through the manual while the battery is charging. I'm just a bit excited. It feels pretty good, nice weight for me - not as heavy as the Pentax K10D but not as light as the Canon EOS 400D. Good size for my reasonably small hands

Very user friendly, no searching through hidden menus for functions - iso, multi burst etc. All there on the dials
Viewfinder is same size as the Pentax - big plus for me. Very positive initially.

On the neg side - noticed the shutter release is very clunky and loud. Dont *think* this will bother me, just an observation. (Havent tried it in multi burst, could be VERY noisy then :confused3 ) May bother some who like to take indoor shots of quiet places, churches or the like.)
Shutter butten does *seem* a little awkwardly placed for me ie - not forward enough on the grip, but thats something I can get used to very easily.

Initially very positive - has the IS and anti-dust system I was after, feels good and has compatibility with past Minolta lenses that I can (hopefully) find reasonably priced pre-owned.
I can now play with it for 7 days and if its not for me I'll return it and look at the Pentax again.
Will try and post some shots later, either here or the "Show me: your first photo taken with a new camera or lens" thread :)

[ukcatfan]

On the neg side - noticed the shutter release is very clunky and loud. Dont *think* this will bother me, just an observation. (Havent tried it in multi burst, could be VERY noisy then :confused3 ) May bother some who like to take indoor shots of quiet places, churches or the like.)

I do not know about the K10D, but the K100D is also a little on the loud side. We had a discussion a few months back about this. I think pretty much everyone agreed that even the loudest SLR shutter is not as annoying as the p&s owners that have strange shutter sounds like dog barks, bird chirps, chimp screams, voices, etc. so do not let that discourage you. If you like that sort of sound effect as your shutter, then no offense, it just seems that most people do not like it going off near them. I use the simulated SLR shutter sound on my p&s.

Kevin

[steery1]

Havent heard any of those strange shutter noises you mention. Not for me though.

[steery1]

OK, had a chance to nip out for a couple of hours today and here are some of the results.
They've had minor PP in PSE 3, cropping, contrast etc. Please feel free to say exactly what you feel, I'm very hard to offend and would aooreciate the criticism :)
I probably should post them in the "show me pictures from your part of the world" thread or even the "Show me: your first photo taken with a new camera or lens" thread but I'll post them here for continuity :)

BTW it felt wonderful handling an SLR again after so many years. :)

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/steery1/DSC00013ps600x360.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/steery1/DSC00032ps600x526.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/steery1/DSC00034ps600x440.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/steery1/DSC00041ps600x402.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/steery1/DSC00004ps402x600.jpg

[Steve's Girl]

Looks good! It's so funny you mentioned the shutter release being loud. When I was deciding on which camera to buy, the Sony had just been released, so while I was in the camera store, I picked it up and clicked the shutter a few times. My first reaction to the camera was "oh my goodness, that is one loud shutter!" Thought I was just being petty. Glad to hear it wasn't just me.

[Groucho]

IMO the only area where the cameras noticably differ is in the "weather seals" that the Pentax comes with, all other areas are a wash or subjective in nature(even jpeg softness on the Pentax).
Actually, there are a lot of other things, besides the more advanced IS, there are more program modes (like Sensitivity Priority), program line adjustments, in-lens focus motor support, and lots of other tweaks, some big and some small, to make things easier, faster, and more powerful for the photographer.

How important these are to any particular person is up to them, of course, but there's certainly a lot of extra features. I'm really looking forward to being able to play with the ISO modes and to being able to select the program line (normal/hi speed/depth/MTF) - especially MTF. These are more enticing to me than the weather sealing, which sounds pretty handy, too... I'm thinking it might be nice for some Splash Mt photos. :)