OKW discriminates to Handicap ?????

[BillM]

Now let me say first that OKW and DVC and also WDW are great destinations to the Wheelchair or ECV handicap...but.....I find it hard to understand that OKW will not let the above type handicap be booked in the new buildings with elevators. The reason I was given was that in case of fire the elevators stop working. I was told this at check in at OKW and also recently when I booked a ressie with MS.
But what I don't understand is that I have stayed at HH and had to go up an elevator to our villa and also at BWV.
I had thought that when the new buildings at OKW were built the WC and ECV handicap would have access to the upper floors. Also a Grand Villa. As you may know OKW prior to the new buildings did not have a Grand Villa that was accessible and neither does DVCHH. Also at HH they can build a ramp to the General Store on the second floor but they can't build a ramp to access the Grand Villa. Or what happens if you stay at the Contempoary or the GF.
Again we think DVC and WDW is great but are we being discriminated at OKW?

How do you figure????

[WebmasterDoc]

There is one GV at OKW with 1st floor access and all other villas with accessibility are on the ground floor- no problem with accessibility there- no elevator needed.

At GF and CR there are also ground floor rooms which require no elevator access.

At HH, all 5 GV's enter on the 3rd level of the building- one level higher than the General Store. There are no ground floor rooms at HH in any building. I don't know what they'd do if the elevator was shut down at HH.

At VB, none of the Beach Houses (GV's) are accessible, but there is an accessible lock-off 3BR in one of the other buildings.

At BWV and VWL there are also ground floor villas which are accessible without the need for an elevator.

Good question.

[BillM]

Thanks Doc. Glad to learn that there is at least one GV at OKW that is accessible. But it does seems that DVC is inconsistant with our resorts as to accessiblility to GV.

[Firefighter Mickey]

Which building is the ground floor GV in?

We asked for building 62 because my Mom will be with us and she needs a wheelchair. MS never mentioned the restriction to me when we made the request (and they knew the request was because of the wheelchair).

Is this a policy that MS doesn't know about?

Frankly, I find the argument regarding the elevators to be suspect. While it's difficult, a wheelchair can be manuvered down steps in an emergency. Do other Disney resorts restrict wheelchairs to ground floor only rooms?

[Chuck S]

I haven't stayed in any of the new buildings, yet. But, could it be possible that while the floors may be accessible via the elevators, that the rooms themselves are not w/c evc rooms (lower sinks, roll in shower, etc)? Since MS knows someone in your party will be in a w/c perhaps they assumed you wanted a room outfitted for full access. Just a thought.

If the new rooms are indeed fully outfitted for w/c it really doesn't seem like it would have to do with fire/evacuation. While a w/c can be manuevered down steps, an ecv cannot. And neither would be good if time is of the essence for an evacuation. Power could fail to the elevator in an emergency situation.

[BillM]

Firefighter Mickey

We had also requested in my Nov ressie that we would like a building with an elevator. Also handicap accessible. When we checked in at the front desk at OKW 11/26 we showed them our confirmation which had the above requests. They assigned us to Bldg 27. I asked about the new buildings with elevators and they said "you can't stay on the below ground floors because the elevators don't work in the event of a fire". Recently when I made a March ressie the CM told me the same thing.

We have always stayed on the ground floor at OKW and we wanted to stay on an upper floor to improve the view.

As I indicated I have stayed in handicap 1 BR villas at BWV and HH and in both cases you had to use the elevator to access the villas.

[Towncrier]

The handicap accessible GV is in either building 47 or 48. We stayed there in 1998 with my sister (who needs a wheelchair to get around the parks but who can negotiate stairs if necessary) and her family. I was under the impression that there were two Grand Villas that were equipped for wheelchair access. If there is only one, I can hardly believe that we were fortunate enough to book 10 months out for a July vacation.

[WebmasterDoc]

I was under the impression that there were two Grand Villas that were equipped for wheelchair access.

There could well be 2. That was the area I was thinking of for a ground floor GV.

Thanks, Towncrier!

[mikek]

firefighter micky-

dont mean to be morbid, but i'm kinda shocked that you would qestion that.

Dont mean to be freak any one out, but did you see any of the stories about handicapped folks in the WTC? I know its a far cry form 3 stories at 110 but i dont think anyone wants to do have it on their mind the day after the 1 in a 1000 freak accident.

My wife's friend's husband worked in the WTC. He and a co-worker started walking down from the 80's. The husband stopped to help some wheel-chair bound folks down because his father needs one and he worried that the firefighters wouldn't get to them in time- the co-worker kept going by himself. The co-worker made it but they still haven't found the the husbands body.

So I think that while they might be able to figure out a way to build ramps, questioning their logic on this one is a little harsh.

[Firefighter Mickey]

2 flights of stairs is not the same as 110 stories. Further, to compare the sudden collapse of the WTC with a typical fire (even in a high-rise structure) is also stretching things quite a bit.

Generally, people in wheelchairs can be safely evacuated from a building even if the elevators are not functional.

Disney's policy regarding this is silly. They allow people in wheelchairs to go on rides like Spaceship Earth - a difficult ride to evacuate anyone from, let alone someone in a wheelchair.

[walter]

Many building codes require an area of refuge for the handicapped. Therefore as posted earlier by someone, this inability to use the new buildings seems inconsistant with the intended design. In New York State (outside of NYC), the building code requires multi-story, multiple resident housing w/elevators for all units to be accessible.

[Chuck S]

They allow people in wheelchairs to go on rides like Spaceship Earth - a difficult ride to evacuate anyone from, let alone someone in a wheelchair.

True, but they limit the number of mobility challenged guests that are on the hard to access rides at any given time...usually folks with mobilty problems wait longer to board than if they had waited in line with the ambulatory folk. Theoretically, all guests in one DVC unit could be in w/cs, thus slowing an upper level evacuation.

[mikek]

Firefighter micky-

I know theres a BIG difference -thats why i mentioned it originally
its a far cry form 3 stories at 110
Also You mean to tell me you cant think of a scenario where access to the elevator could be impeded but the stairways were clear and before rescuers arrived the stairways too became blocked?

My point was- they do have a basis. That the policy wasnt arbitrary or malicious. Maybe 'silly' as you point out but not meant to discriminate.

Maybe they never thought that there was a big difference between a 2nd or 3rd floor and the ground floor. So assuming all else being equal, they decided why risk it (although i agree its tiny.) I have occasion to make safety related decions at work, and i always ask myself- is there any way i'm going to have to explain my decision to someone's widow or children that it was my stupid decision that got somebody hurt or killed. If i can think of any way that could happen, I dont permit the situation to exist.

[drusba]

As to the OKW elevator buildings, I believe this is one that you should probably take up with DVC management. My understanding is that the new buildings were given elevators mainly to comply with building rules created after the older units were built, which new building rules were adopted to assure that upper floors were handicap accessible (although not necessarily with handicap facilities in the rooms). Other hotels (including BWV) have elavators to handicap rooms and the statement that the rooms cannot be used by persons with disabilities because the elevators might stop in a fire sounds facetious (if that were the case persons with disabilities would be effectively eliminated from every major hotel in any large city where all rooms are accessible only by elevator).

[ducklite]

Originally posted by Firefighter Mickey
Which building is the ground floor GV in?

We asked for building 62 because my Mom will be with us and she needs a wheelchair. MS never mentioned the restriction to me when we made the request (and they knew the request was because of the wheelchair).

Is this a policy that MS doesn't know about?

Frankly, I find the argument regarding the elevators to be suspect. While it's difficult, a wheelchair can be manuvered down steps in an emergency. Do other Disney resorts restrict wheelchairs to ground floor only rooms?

I used a wheelchair at WDW for a couple trips after back surgery. MS knew that I would need a wheelchair, although I was mobile, and did NOT want or need an accessible room--I wanted to save that for the guest who really needed grab bars and such. But both times we were assigned first floor rooms. Since I'm feeling better and no longer using a wheelchair, I haven't had that notation when I called, and we've always had upper floor rooms. Coincidence?

Anne

[ducklite]

Originally posted by BillM
Now let me say first that OKW and DVC and also WDW are great destinations to the Wheelchair or ECV handicap...but.....I find it hard to understand that OKW will not let the above type handicap be booked in the new buildings with elevators. The reason I was given was that in case of fire the elevators stop working. I was told this at check in at OKW and also recently when I booked a ressie with MS.
But what I don't understand is that I have stayed at HH and had to go up an elevator to our villa and also at BWV.
I had thought that when the new buildings at OKW were built the WC and ECV handicap would have access to the upper floors. Also a Grand Villa. As you may know OKW prior to the new buildings did not have a Grand Villa that was accessible and neither does DVCHH. Also at HH they can build a ramp to the General Store on the second floor but they can't build a ramp to access the Grand Villa. Or what happens if you stay at the Contempoary or the GF.
Again we think DVC and WDW is great but are we being discriminated at OKW?

How do you figure????

Very simply put, read the ADA. You are not being discriminated against. The ADA states that 'reasonable accomodation' must be made to give access to all individuals regardless of handicap. Reasonable accomodation. It does NOT mean that you get exactly the same room, exactly the same view, exactly the same anything. It means that there is some give and take. The company has to spend money to be able to offer a reasonably similar experience to you that it offers to other guests. It also means taht guests with handicaps must have reasonable expectations of what a company will do for them. So if they choose to build all barrier free rooms on the first floor, as long as they are building them, they are in compliance. They do not even need to have barrier free rooms in every catagory of room if they do not choose to do so! As long as they aren't all the most expensive rooms, or they don't charge more for a barrier free room, they are in compliance.

Discrimination takes place once a business decides that it would be too costly to make simple modifications and does nothing. Or if the barrier free rooms were only available in the most expensive catagory. But this is not the case. They have barrier free rooms in all four possible configurations, and with all views available for that cofiguration. When you book a DVC room, regardless of which resort, there is never a guarantee of exactly which room you will be in. You can only choose your size and general view, and "request" other things, such as building number, floor, etc. So I don't see where there is discrimination based on that. I've NEVER had my request for a specific view or floor granted. Does that mean I'm being discriminated against? I think not.

Anne

[Dean]

I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here but there are some points I feel I must make. If anyone is offended, I'll apoligize in advance for upsetting them but not for the statements themselves.

It is impossible to build a room that provides the optimal situaion for every different type of need or disability, the companies must meet certain requirements based on the ADA laws and the interpretation of those laws. This will not work the same for everyone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Anyone who asks for a first floor room for medical reasons and is upset when they get a handicapped room, is being unreasonable. At this point, there are more handicapped rooms than the need for them and that means that some people must therefore get these rooms. Until the need picks up (as it will some day), one is not taking a handicapped room away from someone who needs it. It's certianly OK to ask for a ground floor, non handicapped room but remember it's only a request. What I wonder is that since requests cannot be guaranteed, what happens if they don't have a handicapped room for someone that needs it. I assume they book those with hard requests and further assume if they have 28 requests and 25 handcapped rooms (just an example) that they would tell 3 people they don't have a room for them, even if there are regular rooms available. What would they do if a room went out of usage like a flood or fire and then then didn't have enough handicapped rooms to fit the need. It's much like a parking lot required to have 6 handicapped spaces but there are 8 that need the spaces, the company is still in compliance with the laws.

If I were in charge, I'd have concerns about having those with limited mobility, such as wheelchair bound, being on the upper floor where the elevator is the main means of getting up and down for EXACTLY the reason Disney quoted. If someone wanted to sign a waiver AND legal review suggested that waiver would hold up in court, I'd let them go for it. Obviously there is no way to take all of the risk away but remember that most companies are trying to follow what the ADA says for legal reasons not altruistic ones. They will rarely go above and beyond without a specific reason to do so and they should not be expected to.

[Firefighter Mickey]

Ground floor rooms for medical requests such as a wheelchair are the same as any other request as far as I can tell - they come first on this list, but nothing I've seen says that DVC does anything to go out of the way to accomodate those requests - certainly my experience has been otherwise.

You wonder about the liability of DVC with regard to elevators. How about the liability if because of this stupid policy, someone is placed in a situation where they have no choice but to move a wheelchair up and down those steps 2 or 4 times a day? It would make an interesting court case I think to deny someone access to an elevator building, even if it was available, and they were subsequently injured by falling down the steps because they had no other option.

[Dean]

Disney tries very hard to accomodate medical requests. I guess I was thinking with my fingers, wondering out loud if DVC or WDW for that matter, matched the handicapped rooms on the front end. Then what would they do if they didn't have a handicapped room to meet the needs of a guest. I guess if I were curious enough, I could go over to the disabilities board but not tonight. If Disney doesn't have room and one decides to go anyway, I doubt there would be much liability. Disney is usually pretty good at covering their back side.

[Firefighter Mickey]

I'm not convinced that they try very hard to meet medical requests, though I'm sure they do very well at covering liability issues.

Last time I invited my folks and grandmother, knowing what I thought was the situation with the GV's (all on second floor), I also secured 2 studio rooms. My mom is in a wheelchair, my grandmother, while mobile, cannot negotiate steps. At 11 months, I asked for both studios ground floor for medical reasons, all non-smoking, and if possible near each other.

We got one studio on the ground floor, the second studio on the second floor and all of us in a smoking building - the only request that was fully met was the one I cared about the least.

Luckily my grandmother cancelled out on us, so having the second floor studio was not an issue. Housekeeping went above and beyond to change out bed covers and blankets as well as ionizing the GV (wife has asthma, and smoke bothers her quite a bit).

My single biggest fear with this trip, is that even though I made the reservation 14 months in advance (SSPL*) and so should be at the top of the list for requests, is that we'll end up with another smoking GV on the second floor w/o at least elevator access. I would have done a ground floor studio for my parents again, but because of all the changes with the rest of the family cancelling out, it wasn't an option.



*SSPL - special seasons preference list; no longer used at any of the DVC resorts, but when it was active, it allowed you to get on the list first-come first-served and make reservations for the Christmas holiday period in advance of the normal booking windows.

[JudithM]

I have a knee condition & am not supposed to do steps much (doctor said). I have requested first floor at OKW for medical reasons since I was diagnosed with this condition. I explain to the CM in Member Services that I do not need a handicapped room. I have always gotten the first floor room. Plus usually the CM asks me if I will need a wheelchair - I think that is nice of the CM to ask & to help me think ahead. At this time I do not need a wheelchair, & I would not want to take one away from someone who needs it.

As a side note I would consider the second floor in an elevator building if I might only have to go down the stairs once in an emergency.

I have found CMs at MS & OKW to be very helpful to my needs & concerns.

[drusba]

OK, now that we are getting into an area that I understand, the ADA, I have to say that the views expressed above are, to put it mildly, far from correct. You have basically provided rules applicable to structures that existed before 1993, and thus applicable to whether alterations must be made to those structures, and not regulations applicable to structures for which a permit was first approved after Jan 1, 1992 and for which construction began on or after after January 1, 1993, to which the ADA's "new" construction rules apply. First those elevators are there because they are required to be there under the ADA "new" construction regulations. Moreover, for hotels or similar accomadations, those regulations require that all floors and rooms be accessible to the handicap. As to rooms having special facilities (bathrooms, etc.) for use by the handicap, such new structures must have a minimum number of such rooms within the entire structure or group of new structures and must also have equal size accomadations available; i.e., if grand villas, 1BR's and studios are offered then there must be a minimum number of grand villas, 1BR's and studios available for use by the handicap. In other words you cannot exclude the handicap from grand villas by making them all non-handicap ready. The minimum number of handicapped-altered rooms ranges from 1 for a hotel with 25 rooms to 2% for a hotel with 500 or more. You cannot just put all such rooms on the first floor -- although if your minimum required is low, like 2 rooms, you may get away with that--because such rooms must be evenly dispersed throughout the facility and its floors. Moreover, you cannot exclude a handicap person from a regular room without handicap facilities if they want one. And you definitely cannot do it on the basis of claiming the elevators would shut down if there is a fire. (If that were a legitimate basis, you could effectively do away with the regulations under the ADA and could also prohibit, if you wished, allowing babies and old people on upper floors).Moreover, one of the suggestions above about concern for liability in the event of fire or insurance rates are also not legitimate reasons under the ADA for exclusion to rooms in upper floors (again if they allowed that, companies could effectively eliminate the purpose of the regulations concerning new construction which is expressly to permit "equal" access to all floors in a newly constructed hotel). In other words, as I suggested above, I would raise the issue with DVC management and probably suggest to such management that they seek legal advice if they believe they can exclude the handicap from rooms on the higher floors in the new buildings.

[BillM]

Drusba
Many thanks for your lesson in ADA. My whole point in this thread was does OKW give equal treatment to the handicap(WC and ECV) for the second floor and above units in the new buildings?? The replys I got from check-in desk and CM"s on the ressie phone indicated that they do not allow these handicap on the floors serviced by the elevator when at HH you have no choice but to use the elevator. Also at BWV it is routine to be in a villa on the upper floors. In addition there is no access to GV's at HH fair to the DVC members who have mobility problems. They built a ramp to the General Store but there are no other ramps on the premises.
Again I will state that DVC does a great job overall for the mobility impaired but I find them lagging in the instances above.

[SueM in MN]

We stayed on the second floor in one of the newer OKW buildings with elevators in March 2001. They knew we had a person in a wheelchair because it was printed on our reservation confirmation. In addition to DD in her wheelchair, we had my FIL, who has trouble with stairs because of bad hips and knees.
What drusba posted is pretty much what we were told by CMs while the new buildings were under construction. It was "Disneyfied" a little, "We are putting elevators in those buildings so that our guests in wheelchairs and with disabilities can have the ability to stay on more than the first floor."
There are people who need first floor rooms that would have problems using a fully handicapped accessible room. For example, when we first started going to WDW with DD and her wheelchair, she was only 3 years old. We tried a wheelchair room, but with the raised height toilet, it was dangerous for her to use that bathroom. She's 16 now and is just about 5 feet tall if we stretch her. That type of toilet is too high for her to use still. It's enough stain on us to have to use them in the parks restrooms. By the time we get back to our room, I don't want to have to worry about her falling off.
To answer a few questions that were brought up earlier, we have been told that:
1) If someone requests a fully handicapped accessible room, it is guaranteed. The assumption is that person would not be able to use another type of room. I have heard of people being moved to a handicapped accessible room in another resort if all at their original resort were filled.

2) Requests for first floor for medical reasons are filled before other first floor requests. They are not guaranteed, but are almost always filled. If you need first floor, check your confirmation sheet. If first floor is listed, but not the medical need, call back and get the medical need added. One time we ended up on 2nd floor when we didn't have medical needs on the confirmation. We came in after midnight and were told that was all available. We carried DD upstairs that night (she was only about 8 years old) and the next day they got us a first floor room without charging the room change fee.

3) Requests for medical or handicapped accessibility made through WDW RESORTS/SPECIAL RESERVATIONS at (407) 939-7807 [voice] or
(407) 939-7670 [TTY] are guaranteed (from what I'm told). You can deal with them for all the resorts, although we have been told that DVC Member Services will provide the same service.

[Firefighter Mickey]

Thanks for the update SueM. That helped quite a bit with my current stress level. We're leaving for Orlando in a few hours, and checking in to OKW on the 20th. Here's to hoping my dad and I aren't hauling my mom and her wheelchair up and down a couple of flights of steps 4 or 6 times a day.

[LindaDVC]

Since DH has a power wheelchair and is non-ambulatory it takes a few extra minutes to book a vacation. We are always put on hold and they confirm with the DVC resort that they have a w/c accessible room available. At that point they block a room to prevent having more w/c rooms booked than available. We've never had a problem when we arrive having an appropriate room.

I think Disney does a great job! We have been in so many non-Disney hotels that we could not maneuver in! I won't list all our nightmares however we really appreciate Disney and feel they do a great job.

Once at HH the elevator broke and they let us know that the repairman was in route and should have it fixed soon. However they said if an inconvenience they would carry Dan down if we wanted to get going! We weren't in a hurry to get to the beach so in less than an hour it was repaired and we were on our way.

Linda

[Dean]

LIndaDVC, that was my assumption, that they actually booked the handicapped rooms specifically for those with Medical Need.