Here's my humble opinion...

[goofy4wdw59]

OOPS!! Didn't mean to start a new thread!! Meant to add it on the existing one...

Wow...this is a hot topic! It goes to show you how badly we need a discounted admission, HA-HA! I'm always afraid to post anything that could be viewed as "anti" Disney. But, I have to add my "2 cents", and LET ME GET THIS OUT THERE, I'm a big Disney/DVC fan. I didn't buy DVC thinking I was owed "special" treatment or anything unreasonable. I am not interested in selling my DVC--just want to express an opinion!

I don't agree with everything Disney Co. does. I don't think profit$$ has to be BIGGEST part of every decision Disney makes, and I'm sure it isn't always the deciding factor. Yes, they have to be profitable to stay in business, keep the doors open, etc. and, there are sound, rational, business reasons for doing what they do. BUT...(and you know that was coming), I don't believe a discounted admission offered to DVC members is going to break the big Disney bank.
Obviously, I don't have much business sense, (Ha). I'm guessing that many posters who are unhappy with things aren't just looking for "what's in it for me?", etc. I think many of us have higher expectations of the company called "Disney". Quite frankly, I think Old Walt is turning over in his grave, but, that's for another topic.
Call me a Disney fool, but, I think sooner or later, we may get offered a BETTER admission discount of some sort. The DVC membership continues to get larger, and...eventually...the numbers may be business "sound" enough to permit a better deal for DVC members!
Also, it wouldn't hurt to drop a nice note/phone call to guide to let DVC management know of any "reasonable" concerns. ;)
Here's a "wish and a "prayer"...:) ;) :)

[Limmer]

Why shouldn't profit be the biggest part of every decision? As somebody already said, Disney is a business not a charity. Some people seem to think that Disney should be different. As an example, my Dad has owned probably 20 Ford cars in his life. He has spent A LOT of money on vehicles over the years. With the reasoning of some people on this board regarding Disney you would think he should not have to pay as much FOR THE SAME PRODUCT as somebody buying their 1st Ford car. If he walked in and said "hey, I want a substantial discount off my car" he would be laughed at. And if you were the guy behind him and said "I want that deal too" and the dealer said "no you have only bought 7 cars and he has bought 20" (feel free to substitute the word trips for cars) do not tell me that you would not be angry. The point is everybody always feel that they deserve more that somebody else for whatever reason, it is human nature. But you don't.

[Johnnie Fedora]

Funny....The last time I bought a car I got a customer loyality discount. Hummmm....maybe Disney could learn something. ;) :rolleyes:

[SwampFox]

The last time I bought a car I got a customer loyality discount.

But, that doesn't mean you actually paid any less than the next buyer (and you could have actually paid more).

Are you suggesting that Disney should sell cars??

[raidermatt]

Prior to the recession, Disney had record crowds and DVC was flourishing. (DVC continues to do very well, Disney has just slowed the construction to be safe).

What exactly do they need to learn from the auto industry?

An auto dealer will give you a discount so you won't walk across the street and buy from somebody else. Until Disney sees DVC'ers doing that, they won't discount any more than they already do. (We do get LOS and TDS discounts)

[Johnnie Fedora]

But, that doesn't mean you actually paid any less than the next buyer (and you could have actually paid more).


Exactly....by giving me a "discount", they may have made more money and even further customer loyality....OR maybe I'm a shrewd negotiator and didn't present my loyality coupon until I already got my best price.;)

Are you suggesting that Disney should sell cars??


Maybe they should!! Many would be willing to pay above the list price and get the rustproofing/polycoat too.;)

[EROS]

DISNEY is a publically held company. It provides a GREAT product but is a capitalistic entity............not an altruistic philanthropy.

If it can sell DVC memberships WITHOUT additional incentives, it will. If DVC sales slowed, then it would probably respond (as have American car manufacturers recently) with more benefits (discounts, perks, etc.).

No one "has" to buy into DVC. If he/she doesn't think that the package is "rich" enough, then they'll look at other timeshares. If DVC sales are brisk, then people are voting with their wallets.;) ;)

[Ed T]

Getting a discount when you buy a car goes in the favor of the dealer. Why? He now has you as a customer and is going to make a lot of money off you in their service center. Sure Disney could look at it the same why once they sell you they have you for the next 40 years, coming and spending money. Let's face it Disney did not get 60,000 members in 10 years by promising people something, getting them to buy and then taking it away. Sure there where incentives back in the beginning when we bought but we were told up front that those park passes were not going to last forever. Bottom line was we did not buy because of the incentives we bought for the concept.

Would you buy a VW because of the incentives when you were looking at the BMW?

Ed

[dvc_john]

Obviously they do not need to offer discounted park tickets to sell DVC.
They need discounted park tickets to get and keep people in the parks. That's why they have so many targeted discounts now:
Florida resident, Canadian resident, British resident, etc.
I'm getting an AP for 2002. Without a discount, and with the current renewal policy (renewal is active from day 1, not from 1st use), I won't renew for 2003. Rather, in 2003, I will catch up on UF, IOA, SW, and BG. In my case, some sort of AP discount would be to Disney's advantage.

[SwampFox]

....OR maybe I'm a shrewd negotiator and didn't present my loyality coupon until I already got my best price.


....But, that doesn't mean you actually paid any less than the next shrewd buyer (and you could have actually paid more) even with your coupon. ;)

[dvcmomdeh]

(We do get LOS and TDS discounts)...


Yeah but if you stay in a 2 bdrm S-Th and then a studio for F-W, you only get the length of stay for the S-Th. They won't combine the stay. At least they haven't for us.

[sgtpet]

It is a business, they got you and all of us to purchase into the timeshare. Why should they give us any discount? We have no right to expect special treatment in that way. I can see requesting more souvenier items be made available to us. If you are upset sell or go to other Orlando area entertainment locations. Disney owes us nothing special.

[raidermatt]

DVC_John- Disney targets its discount to the markets that they feel they can better tap with the discounts. Clearly, the DVC market is for the most part, not currently one of those markets.

However, again, if more DVC'ers begin spending their money elsewhere, as you are, the situation could change.

[PamOKW]

you only get the length of stay for the S-Th.

That doesn't make sense. Why can't you get the LOS for S-TH and then Fri-Wed? I could see them charging you "twice" for the day you check out of one and into the next but I can't see denying the purchase altogether. Of course, that double charge probably eats up the savings.

[WebmasterDoc]

You can drop the checkout day (Fri) of the S-T stay and include the checkin day (Fri) on the F-W stay. The UMP would be allowed for each stay, but not allowed to span 2 separate reservations.

[BIERMUGG]

"It is a business, they got you and all of us to purchase into the timeshare. Why should they give us any discount? We have no right to expect special treatment in that way. I can see requesting more souvenier items be made available to us. If you are upset sell or go to other Orlando area entertainment locations. Disney owes us nothing special."

Just to add more fuel to the fire. What does Disney owe Florida residents ? They get a discount on passes and also the dining program. I did not Buy DVC for discounts. but it would be nice to get one.

[PamOKW]

There is a lot of "goodwill" in the FL resident programs. Disney needs FL just like FL needs Disney. Sometimes Disney needs support from Florida voters. They also need to keep the Florida residents coming in slow times.....in recent months they've helped to save WDW from total collapse.


The only real reason for Disney/DVC to offer us a good discount program is also "goodwill". To date, Disney/DVC hasn't seen the need to cultivate this from our group. Maybe someday they will. In the meantime, it's okay to keep asking for a better program but it's not worthwhile getting ourselves upset about the lack of one. Personally, I go to Disney to be immersed in all that Disney offers on vacation. I don't have a desire to go to the other area attractions....I'm not really a theme park kind of person. LOL! If one is looking to just have an Orlando area vacation, there are less expensive options.

[mikek]

Good point Pam about "goodwill".

And just so eveyone is clear -that like everything else they do is to maximize profits.

There's tons of stories of disney going that extra mile (and therefore wasting money) to keep people loving them (free shirts, emergency passes, get well goodies, etc.) These are all part of the "disney Magic" but its a business decision meant to get us all hooked and coming back for more. So in the end they make more money.

I wish they thought they needed to hook us but I suppose they have a bunch of bean counters who have calculated that we will show up without anything else for most of the next 40 years.

I am pretty sure the discounts we get now (namely LOS and TDS) are because they make those particular divisions more money in the long run. (Or at least they believe so). DVC has NOTHING to do with it. Read the news- TDS isnt doing so well and keeps getting new product mix to try and fix it. I've seen more discounts from them lately then pretty much any other retailer except the discount department stores; they are begging for people to walk into the stores.

THe LOS discount is (IMHO) meant to entice folks who might only buy 4-5 day hoppers into a more 'complete' pass for longer stays (6 orr more days) so they can pocket more of your change.

[Kick it up a notch!]

Hi guys (and gals),

I run a restaurant and I have to contribute this little tid bit. In the restaurant business we have what are called "regulars" (DVC members) I really appreciate my regulars, they probably make up about 5-10% of my business.(I consider a regular someone I see once, twice or even three times(maybe more) a week) Now, I get to know the regulars and talk to them and know who they are, their favorite server, etc. and every once in a while, without being asked, and not needing to because of a mistake, I will buy a regular a dessert, an appetizer and yes sometimes I will even pick up the check. Now, keep in mind, I don't have to do this, these people are already here and are willing to pay for their meal. I don't make that decision until they are done, and I see what they have had and I will do something nice for them. I don't do it all of the time, and I don't do it for any one guest repeatedly. I just do something nice, out of the blue. If you saw the faces of the people, not because they got something for free, but because they felt like they were recognized for being loyal, and that we noticed them out of everyone in the restaurant to do something nice for. I really think, by reading the posts, that the membership just wants to be recognized, and pins and buttons are cool, but it's not what they want. If I sent a dessert over to the table of regulars and didn't give them the choice of dessert or whether they even wanted dessert, it loses the impact. They could be full, they may not be in the mood for ice cream or many other things. But if I waited until they ordered dessert, and then gave it to them, I would be giving them something they wanted and they would be much happier. It sounds like Disney has their heart in the right place, but thinks too much and doesn't really know what the membership wants. I really don't think it would hurt them financially to give the DVC members a discount that has a real impact, but they are afraid of something.

Maybe they are afraid that other organizations will demand the same discount. Or a larger organization may want a better one. If they started giving the discounts to one group then they really would have to give them to pretty much all of the groups or risk upsetting them. If they did discount the tickets to all of these large groups, wouldn't it hurt the perceived value of the product? If it is discounted too often or too much, don't you have a different impression of that product? You start to develop a value in your mind as to how much the tickets are worth and it is not the face value of the ticket. I think that a test discount program for DVC members, or a meaningful "DVC pass" is needed. Something that can provide them with a way out and does not hurt the perceived value of the admission. That is what will be successful in the long run.

[SwampFox]

I don't do it all of the time, and I don't do it for any one guest repeatedly.

You also probably do it for everyone you consider to be a regular. Disney has many "regulars" who are not DVC members, yet go several times a year and stay at the Poly, GF or All Stars.
That's part of the problem with DVC- we expect it all the time- every time. It can't be on a whim by another division of the company.
As for the "meaningful" pass- I doubt we could even get a consensus of what that would be. Discussion here in the past has indicated a wide range of acceptability. All agree that "free" would be acceptable- but that's not a reasonable expectation.

Many have said they'd be happy with a FL resident's discount- except some from FL. Some prefer to use Hoppers, many like AP's and some have discovered that UMP's (with the 10% discount) serve their needs best. With such a variety of needs and vacation habits, finding a program which satisfies everyone is indeed a challenge.
In addition, the discount must be provided by another company. Sure, it's from Disney- but "Disney" is made up of many divisional companies, each with revenue goals and budgets to make. Any discount offered to one group must come from the division which has to justfy the costs vs benefits. In a sense, each of these companies is competing for the same recreational dollars.
There are different ways to try to make someone feel special as a reward for their loyalty. For me, I always feel special when greeted by the bell staff and desk CM's who recognize us as "regular" visitors at the resort. The recreational staff always acknowledges our return with a "Welcome Home" and a smile. For us, those are as good as a free occasional dessert or appetizer- plus we get them every time we go- not on a whim or out of the blue.

[Muushka]

It is so true that it is a business decision for WDW to charge high prices for their park admissions. It was a business decision for them to change their AP renewal policy. But when a customer decides to not purchase their product any more because it is too expensive, that too is a business decision.

When I go into the grocery store to buy milk and I see it at 2.99 a gallon, I do not go up the the manager and tell him that I shop there all the time and therefore the milk should be only $2.29 for me. I simply go to the store that has it for $2.29 (please don't give the argument that milk is milk but USF/IOA is not Disney, I just like to visit "a" park that I can have fun at). It is the same thing at WDW. I don't understand why some Disney folks take this so personally!

I do not expect Disney to give DVC a discount on the AP or whatever. I have no idea how they make their decisions.
I only know how to make business decisions for myself.

[Richyams]

I even have Florida Residents Passes for my wife, daughter and self. THis last trip we had guests and more relatives staying in a different unit on their own points. Not one of them felt that the UMP was even worth consideration. We were all together only once in the WDW parks for a meal. We were all together for at least five meals at US/IOA. Proces are just so much more reasonable there.

During our six stays with free passas, and it was only 6
passes per unit, and we often had kids to young for pass use and/or people staying on other units without passes, it was enough where during all that time, we only spent two days outside of the parks during that time. The "Golden Handcuffs" worked spectacularly.

I don't think they need to go to free passes, but they do need to do something substantial to change our habits back to where they were.

[PamOKW]

I think that a test discount program for DVC members, or a meaningful "DVC pass" is needed. Something that can provide them with a way out and does not hurt the perceived value of the admission. That is what will be successful in the long run.

Sounds like you are thinking very much along the lines of DVC. They did, in fact, create an exclusive DVC pass. Many on these boards do not feel it offers enough value but they did make an attempt.

Hmmm....your name is "Kick It Up A Notch"....you own a restaurant....you have a Massachusetts location....WELCOME EMERIL! ;) ;)

[Johnnie Fedora]

Pam....The special pass your talking about is that 5 hoppers for the price of 4 "thingy". What a joke that is. Disney makes up any discount they give you when you give them all the pass money upfront. You lose 3 years of investment income from that money, and Disney gains it. Also, Disney gains any unused days as they expire each year.:mad: :(

Kick it up....I would eat at your restaurant anytime. I'm sure your regular customers appreciate your gestures. They will also be less likely to be crabby complainers the next time something about their meal isn't right. By the way, How would those same customers feel if you told them you appreciate their business so much, if they pay for 4 entrees now, you'll give them five entrees 1/yr over the next 5 years, but no doggie bags for the leftovers.;) ;)

[PKS44]

Florida residents discounts, USF/IOA discounts...are not for loyalty, they are not owed anyone they are a business decision to increase revenue. Floridians will not come as often as THEY CAN without a discount...with a discount they come more and spend more than the discount costs the provider..if they don't they need to end those discounts...USF and IOA and other places are not discounting to be nice THEY NEED MORE BUSINESS! Until recently WDW did not need more business. They will have to think about how their old ways will work in the current economy and the future.

One thing I would note is that the NUMBER 1 visited theme park in the world (and very profitable also we are told) is Tokyo Disneyland--there they offer three different levels of admission from full unlimited use of the park, to single rides to no rides just shopping eating, looking...

Something for USA Disney to consider...

Paul

[perdidobay]

I do not expect DVC membership to get me any freebies or discounts...I do expect to get the same great Disney service (excepting daily housekeeping of course) that any non-DVC resort guest would recieve. The added costs of all the small freebies would add to my dues and I want them to stay low.
I would rather do this (and I have) - buy a DC membership to recieve a discount on admissions, and forgo hoping for any perks such as gifts or cards on special days such as birthdays and arrange for these things myself.
I bought DVC to get great accommodations at a better price and as a future hedge against inflation, no more, no less.
However, if there is a DVC social on my cruise next month, I wil attend;)
by the way, as far as loyalty goes, Disney gets it and keeps it by having higher service and quality standards than other companies. When that goes, then my loyalty to them goes too.

[mikek]

i'd love a discount too, but i just see them doing it for any logical business reason.

Kick it up a notch!- I think you are very wise for doing what you do. But i dont think it is the same situation as DVC. First everyone needs to realize that disney is a pile of divisions and each one has to justify its financial shape. Imagine Emeril's has 2 seperate parts, a restaurant which doesnt sell dessert and an ice cream bar for deserts- now the restaurant has customers who basically paid in advance for 40-50 years of meals. Who is more likely to give out the discounts- the restaurant manger who knows he has the customers money or the desert bar manager who is still working for his money?

THat's the case with disney- DVC has out money and has no good reason (except to be nice folks) to give us anything. THey might try to talk the theme park manager into helping out his customers but that's about it.

Apparently the theme park manager doesnt think he even needs to entice us any more. I suppose he figures we're all going there now anyhow. That's the guy who needs to be 'straightened out'. So we need to make him (or her) realize that we scoot on over to IOA or other places outside of the World.

Also I have to say though i dont think they seperate us (DVC) out, Disney in general does a great job of the occaisional, random 'free desert'. Most everyone has a story or heard a story of a Cast member giving away something to keep up 'the magic', weather it be a free desert, or flowers, or a bottle of champaign , or a free entry pass, or a free night or upgrade, etc.

[PamOKW]

Johnnie, I agree that the Magical Pass is pretty useless. However, it does fit the criteria of being a pass developed only for DVC members. No one else can feel slighted that we are getting a different price on a regularly offered pass. (Of course, no one else would want the pass either.) ;)

[Terry S]

I have been reading this post as well as the other one for awhile and had to put in my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.

First of all I don't think people should be getting so upset over someone who was just giving their opinion. I am pretty sure if DVC and/or Disney decided to give a free/better discounted pass to DVC members that no one would turn it down. Although all of the people who responded that DVC and/or Disney should not give the free/better discounted pass, feel free to turn it down and pay full price, if and when it happens, if it makes you feel better. I sure won't.

Also, just a side note on the car purchase thing. When I purchase my car I do receive a coupon book for a few free oil changes and a few other maintenace items free, the dealer does not have to do this, it is a "goowill" thing. Also I purchase the car "A" plan which means there is no dealing, it is a set price set by Ford for employees so the coupon book is not worked into the price either.

[mikek]

Terry-

I agree with you- funny how people seem to get angry about either point of view. I dont think they will offer much more by way of discounts, but would definately enjoy them if they happened.

But as far as your free coupon book- the dealer isnt being a swell guy here either. They hope to get you into their service bays rather then run down to the jiffy lube for your oil changes. If they give you a couple free ones, they hope you like their service and continue to use it, maybe you'll feel guilty about accepting a couple free oil changes so you pay for a few more after your free ones are used up, or maybe when you show up to get oil changes they find other work that needs to be done that they can make money on.

Very few (if any) freebies are given by any business unless they think it will help the bottom line at some point (well at least the ones that stay in business). Even 'good will' items are given in the hope that you come back yourself or maybe tell your friends how swell the business was. It costs many times more to woo a new customer than to keep an old one. So sometimes we get thrown a bone (loyalty discounts) to continue being good little customers since it's cheaper to spend a little keeping old customers than attracting new. Some think these are smart for Disney to do this for us DVC folks. I think in general it's a given that it makes sense to spend a little to keep the people happy rather than need to find new. But again Disney seems to believe they have us hooked for 40 more years without lifting a finger. Untill people start selling alot, or they sense that we spend more time away from the parks, they arent going to get off their duffs. Since i dont think the mass selling exodus is going to happen anytime soon, keep up the posts about going to IOA....

[PKS44]

Terry S wrote: "First of all I don't think people should be getting so upset over someone who was just giving their opinion. I am pretty sure if DVC and/or Disney decided to give a free/better discounted pass to DVC members that no one would turn it down. Although all of the people who responded that DVC and/or Disney should not give the free/better discounted pass, feel free to turn it down and pay full price, if and when it happens, if it makes you feel better. I sure won't. "


What gets me riled in these posts is not that I don't agree with someone's opinion, it is the complete misrepresentation of what my or someone else's opinion is...not one person here has ever said they would turn down a discount. No one here has said what Disney SHOULD or should not do about discounts except that they should not ignore sound business policy to do it. What I and others have said is that no one DESERVES a discount. The use of the word deserves is wrong. This attitude of entitlement is what offends me. It is an attitude not unique to this question. I would hope that those who support our system of equality for all and who believe in the right to pursue happiness in a free and open market would be similarly irked by those who feel they are entitled to special treatment, regardless of profit consequences. If you want to argue that Disney will come out ahead (MORE Profitable not more popular) by offering a discount, that is a legitimate basis for an argument. If, as seems to be the case of many posts, you want to argue Disney should accept less overall profit to be nice to loyal customers, or that they make too much money anyway, or any of that nonsense, that is aggravating. It is a fundamental issue of understanding how free enterprise works. We all are looking out for our own bottom line, why should Disney be any different?

Paul

[downontheBW]

I don't think I "deserve" any discounts and my WDW vacations are probably very different from most other DVCers. For people like me, Disney would be smart to give me an incentive to go the parks. Since our kids are in college, our last few trips have been just my DH and myself. We don't go on the rides, we enjoy the parks mostly for shopping and dinners. Of course that will change as our family changes and we bring the extended family in future years.

But for now, I would love to visit the parks more but I don't like to pay $50 a piece when the main reason for the park visit is dinner. Therefore, we go to the parks sparingly. On our last three trips, we spent a total of 2 days at the Disney parks and one day a Sea World. If Disney had a more attractive price structure for folks like us, they would be ahead dollarwise as we would spend time and money at the parks.

Last week we were at OKW for 3 nights.:D We went to PI on the first night and expected to spend the $21 for the one night but they had a special: for an extra $5, we could go for 5 nights. What a deal! We went all 3 nights and spent plenty on snacks and drinks plus a souvenier or two. We never would have spent another $21 for a second night. Who's ahead? I'd guess that both parties are. We're happy and Disney has more of our money. Disney, are you listening? Are any other DVCers like us?

[raidermatt]

Disney has never been a big discounter. Sure, there's the occasional deal, such as the military deal right now, and the early DVC discounts. But they have NEVER used discounts on any kind of large scale to build loyalty. Yet they have the most loyal following of any large entertainment company in the world.

Do we really think that 20 years ago, frequent visitors didn't wish they could get more discounts? Of course they did. And there were always some who decided to go to a less expensive product. Yet Disney continued to gain the loyalty of far more people than it lost.

Now, DVC continues to sell like hotcakes, even in tough economic times. Until the recession hit, record crowds were attending Disney parks. Apparently, for every customer angry over the price, several more decided to start paying it.

Given all of this, how in the world can we say Disney "should" increase their discounting to increase loyalty? Lowering prices, even for frequent customers, does not create loyalty to a company. It merely attracts customers who are motivated by price.

Disney does not build loyaty through discounts. They build it by offering a product that keeps people coming back, even if it costs more. That has always been their strategy, and it has worked. Why in the world would they want to change it? If the strategy begins to fail, rest assured they will start making changes. But again, loyalty built through price discounts lasts as long as the discounts do.

[dvc_john]

"Disney has never been a big discounter. Sure, there's the occasional deal, such as the military deal right now, and the early DVC discounts. But they have NEVER used discounts on any kind of large scale..."

Florida Resident
Disney Club
Military
Civil Service
AAA
Corporate
Conventions
Canadian
British

[raidermatt]

John- You've done an excellent job of pointing out some specialized discounts that Disney offers to markets if feels it needs to. But what exactly are you trying to say? That Disney IS a big discounter?

Disney charges a higher price for its product than its competitors and offers fewer discounts. If that were not true, we wouldn't have so many people concerned with this issue.

Again, Disney does not discount just for the sake of discounting. They never have. They discount only if they have to in order to stay competitive, or if they see it as financially profitable to them down the line.

They are not witholding discounts because they want to shaft us. They just don't see the need as long as DVC is selling, and enough of our vacation dollars are being spent on-site.

[SnowWitch]

First let me state "I do NOT feel any entitlement!" We have only been part of DVC for 2 years and we were very clear when we purchased that there were very limited discount ticket options ie. Legnth of stay pass (or whatever they are calling it these days) We have visited Disneys themeparks so much we tend to visit other non Disney places now. I love Disney but I have to agree with others about the admission cost, its excessive. I'm not going to play $50 to run into a park for a few hours for a meal!!! If Disney did offer a better park incentive to DVCer's they might dare I say profit from it. I think Disney thinks that DVCer's are such die hard loyal fans they will pay without a Disney discount and most do and apparently smile while doing it. And thats fine but we just don't frequent the parks the way we used to, I don't view giving Disney $200 for admission and another $100 plus for a meal in a theme park a favor from Disney!

[raidermatt]

SnowWitch- You make some valid points. You're comment about admission being excessive, however, is purely a matter of opinion. True, its an opinion held by many, but it has been held by many for years. Yet Disney's attendance rises. So until a higher percentage feel its excessive and don't go, it won't change. But this has been the case for a long time, and it hasn't changed, so I wouldn't hold my breath...

As for DVC discounts, once again, its a matter of numbers. There will alwasy be members that feel the price is too high. But until Disney sees a drop in spending inside the parks from us, it won't change. My personal opinion is that its a possibility, but again, I wouldn't hold my breath...

[Johnnie Fedora]

Disney has been deeply discounting many of their room rates long before 9/11. We booked (in the spring) Poly concierge for a little over $200/night for a Sept stay. So recently, non-DVCers (and a few DVCer) have saved a lot on their vacation costs during these slow economic times. On the other hand, most DVCers have benefited nothing from Disneys recent discounting pattern.

Obviously, just getting you on the property (by offering a big room discount) guarantees Disney more profit (as opposed to giving an admission discount that could benefit someone who is staying offsite or at DVC). Disney, I believe takes DVCers for granted and figures that they need not provide any incentives to a "captive audience".

IMO, Disney needs to look at DVC members as less of a "captive audience". They may want to consider how to better market the many non-lodging "Disney expenses" to DVC members. After all, during a slow economy, many DVCers may need some "encouragement" to visit the parks. We plan on vacationing, but NOT visiting the parks as admissions are too high. A decent discount may change our minds. Otherwise, USF (and their big discount) may be welcoming us home this year.;)

[PKS44]

When I pay $50 to get in a park, you can be sure that I plan to be in a park for most of the operating hours. I have no idea how many people feel the same, but I suspect it is most. Few will only go for a few hours at those rates. That is why Disney gives a special break to conventioneers who are in meetings alot of the day. They can get special after 3pm after 4pm and after 5 pm passes that are discounted. Otherwise that captive audience would not go into the parks. As for the room discounts this year- DVC members already got their room discount over the next 40+ years no matter what the economy does to room rates...All of us are telling Disney how to market their parks like we know what will or won't work for them. I have my own ideas and I definitely have my doubts about some of Disney's marketing strategies.(Emperor's New Groove was a fun little movie, but that title was a stupid choice and I suspect led to the lack of big audience for that film). Tokyo Disney is flourishing and thriving in the midst of a disastrous Japanese economy over the last 7 years...maybe their 3 tiered admissions policy is part of the reason...I encourage everyone to spend you time and money as you see fit and let Disney do the same without us whining about it.

Paul

[raidermatt]

Johnnie- I should have been more specific with regards to my discounting comments. I was referring to theme parks. I agree, Disney does do more discounting with their room rates, and that's do to their being more competition. Even so, they do not discount as deeply as most of the other hotels in the areas around their parks.

I believe you're right, that Disney does not discount DVC park admissions because of the captive audience theory. However, I'm also pretty sure that they don't just base this on somebody's opinion, but they actually track such things. Should the numbers go against this theory, say because of competition from Universal, I'm sure they will react accordingly. If the numbers continue to support the theory, discounts will remain a dream.

True, during a slow economy, Disney needs more people in the parks, but doing this through discounting is risky, and can be short-sighted. Why? Chances are very good that the economy will hit bottom within the next 3-6 months (unless it already has), and will then begin to improve, until the recession officially ends in a year (?) or so. Most people realize that gate discounts for residents, for example, are not guaranteed, and can fall by the wayside at anytime. DVC'ers, however, don't take things so lightly when a benefit is taken away. Doesn't matter that it was never promised, or wasn't in the contract. DVC'ers will still be angry. Look how angry some are now, even though there haven't been park discounts for years. Giving a benefit for a year, until things get better, would only serve to make many feel like Disney only wants to help them when Disney needs help, creating a backlash when the policy is reversed and parks are full.

Again, not saying that discounts will never happen, just explaining why they haven't, and why it MAY never change.

[Johnnie Fedora]

Many DVCers have reported that they actually would prefer a pass style that better suits "non-commando" park guests. We actually do not like to stay all day in the parks, but would rather the 1/2 day pass style or maybe the Tokyo pass types. The arguement that we already got our discount by buying into DVC may very well be true. However, a lot could change over forty years. If one or more of the parks were to close, the vacation value of our purchase wouldn't look as "discounted" as it does now. As far as discounts go, I'm not sure what will work for Disney, but I do know what would work for me. And at some small level that should matter, even to a large company (Polyanna view...maybe).

By the way, for something to be an official whine on the boards, it needs to be worded like this:

[FRAN] I wannnnnnt a DDDVVVCCC parrrrrkkkk pppppaaaaassss diiiiiiisssscounnnntttt [Dresher]:D :jester: :D

[mikek]

Anyone remember if there was ever a pol of which passes DVC memebers buy? I thought there was but when I searched, I couldn't find it.

I think that would answer pretty quickly if discounting would be a smart business decision. Assuming most people have enough points to hit the world more than 8 days a year you could make a few generalizations...

I f people mostly buy AP's then the discount is already there (every day after the 8th is FREE)- so Disney gets the intended effect- people probably going to the parks more.
If most buy hoppers, then I suppose it would make sense to offer a better discount, as it would seem that people are paying attention to the number of days they use.
And I suppose if MOST buy LOS that means either people dont care about price and are willing to pay a little premium to do whatever they want, or Disney has hit the mark with the discount they offer and provided a big enough break to coax people away from hoppers.

Those are of course generalizations so wouldnt apply to all cases, but i think would be accurate in the big picture sense.

[PamOKW]

Mike, I started just such a poll the other day. It also has a link to an older poll that was done.

Link to Poll (http://64.225.125.24/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135771)

I have to say the "free" pass we received early on spoiled me. I need to have the flexibility to come and go as a I please throughout WDW (with the exception of water parks) or it isn't "vacation". They've got me trained so that an AP or PAP is my best bet. ;)

[raidermatt]

Johnnie- While I would consider a few of the "I should have a park pass discount" crowd to be Fran wannabes, I agree that the majority are just stating their opinions.

I also understand your individual need, and I don't mean to dismiss it. Its just that as we know, if Disney is going to give-up some revenue, they need to be sure it will be made up elsewhere. I know that not all DVC'ers do the commando thing, but a park pass discount would apply to everyone. So while Disney may get more money in the long run from you, they would get less from me, because I would have bought the passes anyway. Neither of us have access to the numbers they look at, but they really do have to base most of their decisions on these numbers.

Also, before granting a discount, be sure that they try to determine exactly what affect a certain discount level will have. For instance, you stated the Florida resident discount would work for you, but would it really result in enough of an increase in purchases to offset the lost revenue from the discount? Not saying the answer is always no, but its still a question they must ask.

MikeK- Good idea, but I'm not sure the survey answers the question of whether discounts would be more profitable for Disney. It definitely lets us know what types of discounts would be appreciated by the most members, but it doesn't mean it will result in more passes sold, or more to the point, enough of an increase to offset the lost revenue from the discounts.

[mikek]

Pam thanks for the link- I knew i just saw it somewhere (i searched every variety of 'pass' and didnt see it)

I was rather surprised that so many buy hoppers. I assumed (I know, I know) that most buy AP's or PAP's. While the majority do that, quite a large percentage buy the hoppers.

Raider- I think it's relevant because-
If the vast majority buy AP's of one kind or another, than they have little need to give a discount, as most already come and go as they please, so theres not much more you need to do to entice them into the parks.
On the other hand if the vast majority buy hoppers, than i think a discount or something like the tokyo system makes sense- you would entice people into the parks to spend more off setting any ptotential drop in AP sales.
When its in the middle, then your right on, its a bean counter game. How many less AP's get sold because of the discount. They need to make sure they dont cannabilize one income source for another (at least not to the point of net loss).

I think they have done the math and it doesnt pay YET. I wonder if in years to come more 'convert' from AP's to hoppers. Reading the posts on Pam's poll, it seems some actually have had their fill of disney and dont go to the parks everyday. (seriously never considered that so many thought that- we dont commando from open to close, but its a very rare day indeed that we dont at least go a few hours) If the hopper percentages go up and the AP's go down, I think your more likely to see discounts.

Maybe, they never new how many have had their fill and now Pam has brought it to their attention. (we can all keep our fingers crossed).

I bet too that those most upset about discounts buy hoppers and those who are calmest about it already buy AP's.

[Granny]

Originally posted by mikek
I was rather surprised that so many buy hoppers. I assumed (I know, I know) that most buy AP's or PAP's. While the majority do that, quite a large percentage buy the hoppers. mikek....AP's only work if you plan on spending at least 9 days at WDW parks per 12 month period.

On our two trips next year we will be staying at our DVC home for 13 nights. But we do not exclusively go to WDW parks. We also visit Sea World, Busch Gardens, etc. We will probably spend 5-6 days in the WDW parks, so the hoppers work fine for us. Plus the "never expire" part gives us the flexibility where we don't have to know exactly how many days we will spend in the parks.

[raidermatt]

Mike- It appears we are in agreement. No discounts yet, probably for good reason. But if enough DVC'ers are balking at the passes, it could change at some point. I'm certainly not predicting there will never be a change. DVC is a relatively new group, and has seen tremendous growth in recent years. Certainly changes could occur based on customer trends.

[Muushka]

. However, I'm also pretty sure that they don't just base this on somebody's opinion, but they actually track such things.

Oh yeah, I am sure they track these things (don't know for a fact, but sure seems probable). Everytime you make a PS they ask where you are staying and your room number. I am sure they like it when you put all of your charges on the room key, much easier to track. For us (and I said this on another post that I killed a few days ago :( ) we were at WDW last week and were there for 8 days. We made 3 PS (because of time/restaurant difficulties), but all other meals eaten there were walk-in. We paid cash for everything.

I know I sound paranoid, but I really hate that they can know my spending habits while there. In addition, I want them to be able to see a DVC member not spend any money there (that they can track anyway). That way, I am complaining with my pocketbook. We really have cut down spending money there. Even if I were not a DVC member, I would complain and cut down on spending and going into the parks.

I cannot blindly pay any price for anything, not even Disney!

[raidermatt]

Thinking about this from Disney's point of view, I would think it would be better if they saw minimal purchases on your room charge than no purchases. If you have no charges, they probably assume you are in the group that uses other methods to pay. Therefore, your spending habits have no impact on their decision making process. The only way this would impact their decisions would be if there were large numbers of people who stopped using room charges. But even then, the question would be did they really stop spending on-site, or did they change payment methods. Also, its not likely that large numbers will change their payment method just to make Disney think they are spending less on-site.

However, if you use if for minimal purchases, then your data is used along with the rest of the room-chargers. If there is a decrease in on-site spending among this group, Disney will see it right away, and they are more likely to respond to it if they see changes.

Going from $1000 on-site to $0 on-site tells me you have probably changed payment methods. At least this is more likely than you not visiting a single on-site establishment.

Going from $1000 on-site to $100 on-site tells me you probably have not changed payment methods, but are spending less on-site. If I were a Disney bean counter or marketing guru, I'd be concerned.

[Muushka]

Good point raidermatt. I guess they could have tracked the 3 PS we made, but from now on we will charge the minimal PS meals.

[PamOKW]

I'm not sure whether not using charge privileges makes that big a difference. Many visitors to WDW use cash, direct credit cards or traveler's checks. I don't think it's worth inconveniencing yourself from using the room charge privilege. After all, DVC really doesn't care what you spend at the restaurants etc. and I'm not sure whether Disney would be bothered checking so closely.

[mikek]

Pam I agree, i dont think DVC cares at all what you charge to your room. But whenever you charge to your key it goes through some sort of authorization and i'm sure the restaurants, stores, parks, etc could grab those stats if they cared (I'm sure they do at least cursory every night when they close out the books for each merchant- x spent in cash, y in visa/mc, z in room charge, etc.., but not sure if they trend it or pay particular attention to details like what resort etc)

Not to upset all of you, but the credit card companies know everything about your spending habits and dont flinch to tell the world (for a fee). Have a relative who is a VP at one of the larger CC's that basically runs their data mining operations.

Ever wonder how upromise, idine, transmedia, etc work? These are all things you sign up for and let them know your credit card numbers, if you charge with the card at a particular merchant, they give you points or rebates, or credits, etc.

Ever wonder why food stores (and everyone else now-a-days) gives you those little bar codes on your key chain and gives you discounts just for showing it? THey aren't just being swell here- they get the money to give you the discounts by selling info on EVERY purchase you make to others. Many of them are connected to the credit card databases.

So for example disney could call MBNA and say " hey how many people stayed at our hotels last year, spend more then 20$ a day in meals, prefer coke over pepsi, shop at staples on a regular basis, use eukenuba dfog food, and fly on delta airlines?" Tell you what- MBNA knows exactly how many.

Sure they dont know what you spent in cash on meals at disney, but they have models that can figure it based on the answer to the eukenuba question..., and certainly they can spot trends. Not sure if disney tracks all that and to what extanet, but i wouldnt be surprised if they know a good amount about their demographics...

[raidermatt]

Pam- DVC SHOULD care what we spend on-site. They could use this data in negotiations with the other Disney units to obtain the very discounts many are seeking. For instance, if DVC'ers really are starting to spend less on-site as some suggest, DVC could show this data to the theme parks/restaurants. Perhaps they could convince them that a discount program targeted at this growing group could be beneficial to them. If DVC were to obtain these discounts, it gives them another selling point for prospective buyers.

Also, knowing where DVC'ers are spending their money can help DVC with their own marketing. Let's say they find that DVC'ers spend 50% more money at MGM Studios than other guests. DVC could then emphasize MGM in their marketing materials.

I'd be extremely surprised if Disney did not track this themselves, however. If it were me, DVC would be one of the many sub-categories I could pull data on. I'd want to know the spending habits of guests from each resort, both DVC and non-DVC. Also based on size of group, number of children, size of accomodation, length of stay, etc, etc, etc. I'd be looking for opportunities among these groups, as well as trends in either a positive or negative direction.

But that's just me...:D

[PamOKW]

Oh I don't doubt this info is out there and could be use for many purposes. I also agree that IF DVC wanted to work on getting members a better discount, they could probably track down this info and use it in their sales pitch. So far, they just ain't interested. Maybe if sales slow down, they'll start to look for other incentives. Having a more substantial discount program might be a help.

That just made me think....first time purchasers of DVC probably stay at WDW resorts and purchase UMPs. To them, a promise of 10% off an UMP sounds pretty good. It's only AFTER we become DVC members do we start coming more often and switch over to APs (not all but I'm guessing a majority turn AP after joining not before). We're already in....DVC doesn't need to entice us.

Maybe if WDW notices that the resort occupancy and the park attendance are out of whack then they'll look into and discover DVC'ers want more. But, although we are growing, we are still a pretty small group in the total WDW park attendance.

[Granny]

PamOKW....your last sentence is exactly the point I was going to make. DVC membership is 60,000 (I think I read that), and not all members visit WDW every year.

That number as a percentage of all park attendees is pretty small. So I don't really see Disney as spending a lot of time trying to entice more $$ out of us....we just don't have the numbers, IMHO.

On the other hand, if DVC sales slow down, I could see the perks picking up (at least for new buyers). That would be a cost-justified reason for Disney to add more perks to DVC members, just as it was in the beginning with the free passes.

[BIERMUGG]

Question. If DVC Has 60,000 members, is that people listed on the contract or family members ? My wife and i are listed on our contracts but not our three kids, So if every DVC Member brings on the average of one extra person with them on each visit then
DVC could bring 120,000 persons to the parks a year. Add in members who make multiple visits and the numbers of Guests
DVC brings in is hugh.

[Richyams]

That number includes owners of HH and VB.

I think the way to look at it is the percentage of on site rooms that are DVC and occupied by DVC members.

One large resort(OKW), a pretty substantial resort(BWV), 1/4-1/3 of a resort??(VWL), 1/3 of a resort(BCV), 1 1/2 resorts out of ????? What do we guess, 10% of on site rooms DVC???

Even if the number is 5%, or even 2%, I think that represents a decent enough size to care about. I wonder what the actual figures are on our group's spending capacity. Are DVC members generally bigger spenders? Do they have a gigher then average income? I think that the answers to these questions would indicate that DVC members would be a good group to try to ensure daily park attendence.

[WebmasterDoc]

Good point, Biermugg.

The 60,000 figure is actually contracts sold- without regard to the number of names on the contract. There are many who own multiple contracts. DVC estimates the number of unique owners (contracts) at more like 48,000. You can still apply the number of guests as before and arrive at a significant number.

The DVC resorts (and all other WDW resorts) track statistical information like average length of stay and uses that info in the overall demographic for WDW. As DVC members, if we go for 8 days, but pay cash on the weekend or switch resorts- the average may be much less than 8 days and could skew the figures for the DVC resorts.

If I check in on Thurs and stay 10 nites- but pay cash for the 4 weekend nites- the "average" would be figured as a 1 nite stay (Thurs on points), a 2 nite stay (Fri/Sat-cash), a 5 nite stay (Sun- Thurs-points) and a 2 nite stay (Fri/Sat-cash)- an "average" of four- 2.5 nite stays.

[PamOKW]

In the scheme of park attendance we are still fairly small. As Rich stated we are equivalent to let's say two resorts. Figure that as a percentage of all the resorts on and offsite and we are not that large. I'm not saying we should be ignored or that we don't provide revenue but we aren't going to make or break WDW.

[BIERMUGG]

As a whole group DVC is nothing to sneeze at. Our vacation guide in July told us DVC is the number 1 money maker for disney. I believe this to be true, if not you would not see the kiosks with the free give aways and advertisment everywhere at WDW. If there are 60,000 contracts and lets say each contract is a average of 100 points and the average cost for points is lets say $ 65 thats a total of $ 390,000,00. which probabbly paid for the Building of the resorts. Add in the annual dues, the rooms rented out of inventory and money spent at DVC. It is a big money maker and its almost guaranteed every year. DVC does not support WDW it supports itself. A strong, loyal and growing customer base is what any business dreams of and will usually bend over backwards to keep. There is an old saying in business
" If you do not keep your customers happy, someone else will"

Hope i do not come off as a complainer that is not my intention,
I love my DVC membership thats why we have 900 points.
it would be a nice pat on the back and a way of saying thank you if a better pass program was offered to us.

[raidermatt]

Rich/Biermugg/Doc- I agree that DVC is a significant market for the WDW parks. We maybe only 2%, but what other groups make up that large a number AND are so easy for them to find and track?

I'm not ready to say we 'should' get better discounts, or that Disney 'needs' to offer me more. But its definitely something I believe they check in on now and again, and it may one day become profitable for them to alter their strategy. But for now, I'm still a happy camper.

On the question of which passes, I think Pam is probably right when she says many DVC'ers migrate to the APs. Of course some are AP people to begin with. But those who are like us, who have to travel a long distance to get to WDW, didn't have APs when we bought. We are now DVC'ers, but still don't want to or can't afford to pay the airfare on a frequent basis. So our WDW vists will become longer, like our two week trip planned later this year. Now, APs look like a good deal for us...

[WebmasterDoc]

I agree that DVC is a significant market for the WDW parks.

I don't really think of DVC as a market for anything. I think it is logical to assume that guests at the DVC resorts (members or otherwise) will go to the theme parks, but I also think it's logical to assume that most guests, even staying staying off-site in the area, will go to the theme parks.

While the free passes gave those DVC members a feel for going to the parks on a daily basis without admission expense, Disney knows that the average guest stays in a WDW resort for x# days and enters a Disney theme park x-y# days per year. The DVC pass program was not a discount offered by the theme parks, it was an incentive, paid for by DVD to sell timeshares. It was NOT negotiated by DVC, it was paid for by DVD.

The currently negotiated DVC discount for the UMP is likely designed to entice DVC members to enjoy the parks for all x# days, instead of the x-y# days. At this point in time the UMP is what the theme parks hope we will purchase instead of hoppers- thus the discount.

I usually think of DVC only as a timeshare- located in a very special place.

[Granny]

Originally posted by WebmasterDoc

I usually think of DVC only as a timeshare- located in a very special place. Amen to that, Doc.

I think since we recently joined, this issue is not as sensitive to us. When we decided to join, we knew there were no great discounts on admission and joined anyway.

Doc...your simple phrase eloquently expresses my feelings as well.

[Johnnie Fedora]

I wonder if DVD paid the rack rate for all those free annual passes at the beginning of DVC, or did Disney offer DVD a discounted AP rate because DVD/DVC was giving the theme parks what they wanted---DVC guests???? If so, isn't the same true today??

[Kick it up a notch!]

I am just curious, and have a little math that may be incorrect but I hope people can help me fill in the right numbers. I understand that the largest group of people that belong to the DVC are Florida Residents. Is this correct? I also have heard this number is somewhere around 40% but that seems kinda high to me. If this is true then 40% belong to a group that already get a good discount. That leaves 60%. I am going to use the number 60,000 people because I know a lot of people have multiple contracts, I own three. That leaves about 36,000 people who are not eligible for the Florida Resident discount. I don't know about how many people trade out but if it is 5% of the total that would be approximately 1,800 more people who would not use passes that year. That leaves about 34,200 people who would benefit from a better discount. The benefit from having a florida discount on an AP is $63.60 for adults and $54.06 for kids. If half the people are kids and half adults, that comes to a total of $2,011,986 annually for a discount. Why would they want to discount 2 million dollars if they don't have to? On the flipside to that question, if each person that went there spent an average of $600 in the parks (including passes) that's $20,520,000. That's a 10% discount on the total $ spent while on vacation. The parks don't need to give this 10% discount, but the total discount $ related to the total $ spent by all vacationers is very small. If they have an average attendance in all parks of 50,000 And you calculate it at $40 per person per day total ticket revenue would be $730,000,000. DVC is such a small amount of the dollars spent, who cares about giving us a discount, certainly not Disney who would look at it as giving away $ 2 million for nothing. Members couldn't spend enough money to make up for that $2 million discount. If the bottom line profit is 25% for every dollar spent ( high figure) DVC members would have to spend an extra $8 million to make up for the discount. That probably not too likely that people would spend an extra $200 for the $50 discount they would give away.

Why?

[Caskbill]

Kick it Up....

Your figures are pretty far off. The latest data I have is from VM, vol 9, from year 2000, but at that time Florida was the 3rd largest group, behind NY, and NJ.

I would presume the ratios today would still be similar to what they were in 2000.

In 2000 Florida had 3777 of 45434 memberships, or 8.3%

New York had 11.2%, New Jersey had 9.6%, and if you add all foreign countries (77 of them), they represent 4059 members, or 8.9%, putting Florida more in 4th place. Followed by PA, IL, MA, MI, OH and so on.

Since your figures were based on 40%, which was a 481% error, I'm afraid your calculations are extremely off.

Also, I'm not sure all FL residents would necessarily buy AP's. Some places in FL are still pretty far from WDW, and if a FL resident has enough points to go 1-week a year, and expects to spend maybe 3-4 days in the park during their trip, then even a FL discounted AP would not make sense for them.

For the 60,000 contracts out there, we might make some deductions. Many contracts are small (150 points), while others are large (500-600). For now let's just think of a 600 point member is the same as two 300 point members. (That helps explain the difference between 60,000 contracts and 48,000 individual members).

Now using some very loose logic, we might estimate an average is 300 points. This will approximately get a 1-B/R at BWV mid-season for 9 nights. (309 points). So if these 60,000 contracts average a 4-person family spending 9 days at WDW a year, that's a almost 2.2 million person-days a year, or almost 6000 people/day who are staying at a DVC resort. (Yes, many are at VB or HH, and the average family could be 3 people, or 5 people, who knows. And maybe mid-season doesn't accurately reflect the total number of days a year the average membership has. That said, let's just go with these figures for illustrative purposes)

Now, if everyone averaged 4-5 park days out of their 9-days there, no one would buy an AP. But the cost of 5-days is pretty close to the cost of an AP, so Disney is getting almost as much as they would have had they all bought AP's. BUT....these same people, spent maybe 5 days out of 9 actually in the parks. Had they gone 8-days (allow one day travel check-in/check-out), that would represent 6000 people a day for 3-days that the theme parks would increase. 6000 people can purchase a lot of food and souveniours.

If the Disney theme parks offered DVC members a discounted AP similar to FL residents, their income from tickets might be almost a wash from what they currently get, (comparing a discounted AP to other 4-5 day passes), but they might get a lot more people-park-days with their resulting in-park purchases.

Yes, as everyone has said, Disney operates on profit. But there are two kinds of profits - Short term, and Long term. You'll find many testimonials on this board of DVC members changing and reducing the number of park-days they spend while at DVC. Those buying regular AP's (myself included), will do so only every other year or so, and going to other Orlando attractions during the off years. This while still staying on Disney property. Those years, Disney looses everything, gaining no park admissions or in-park sales at all.

Long term, Disney will want to maintain high park usage from DVC members, and not let them start to make a habit of just using DVC as their lodging, but rather keeping DVC as a part of the entire WDW experience.

THAT is why it would make good business sense! Not because of goodwill, not because of being expected, not because they're Disney and should do nice things, but because in the long term it will increase profitability, while in the short term probably not hurting total revenues that much.

Most DVC sales contracts are still young, probably within the last 3-4 years. So far, most members still want to do the parks as much as possible. As time goes by, they'll taper back, start doing more things outside of WDW. This is where the danger lies to the Park management, in losing these highly Disney motivated members. They must recognize that eventually, and offer incentives to keep them in the parks.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, except for the year 2000 figures, everything else is pure speculation. Disney is the only one who can ascertain exact figures. But if I were theme park management, the thought of losing 6000 people a day who are staying on site, and not going into the theme parks, would definitely scare me. And that's exactly what will happen as members change from 4-5 park days per year, down to 3-4 days/year, then 2-3 days/year.

Bottom Line, Disney can sell a 5-day hopper pass for $230, or try to entice a DVC member to buy an AP for $269 (FL resident renewal rate) and try to get them to spend 8-days or so in the park instead of 5. (The first year AP at $306 gives Disney even more profit), and assuming most would renew, they'd still make $39 more a year than selling the hopper. This then would offset some of the loss from those DVC members currently buying the non-Florida AP's who would benefit from a FL AP rate.

Similar comparisons can be made between Hopper-plus tickets and PAP's.
All in MHO...:)

[WebmasterDoc]

I wonder if DVD paid the rack rate for all those free annual passes at the beginning of DVC, or did Disney offer DVD a discounted AP rate

The passes were NOT AP's, they were LOS- good only for the number of nights stayed using points and for 1/2 the occupancy rate of the room type. A family of 4, staying in a Studio or 1BR received 2 passes for their stay.

I was told that they cost DVD a flat rate (~$35 in 1991) for each day available on the pass- whether they were used or not. For some member's usage, an AP at rack rate would have cost DVD less than the LOS provided in the program.

[mikek]

since we're all guessing at numbers....

In a nut shell, they have the actual facts with limited assumptions and i'd say it's a safe bet that they due this type of equation. And so far they calculated it will cost them more then they will make.

I think most see that at some point they will need to give better discounts in order to make more money. The only issue really is at what point to they do it. Some say right now. We're always told theat american corps. only look at current profits, so that would seem to point to a time farther down the road when members 'mature' more into other persuits.

Personally i think right now is a little early from a math perspective, but we can only hope that they arent 'penny smart and pound foolish' and wait till the last minute.