Just back - some observations

[DaveO]

Just got back from 12/1 - 12/7

1. I am going to have to stop lurking here. I went to the World looking for things to be mad about. What did I find? NOTHING.

* There were plenty of busses and the same amount of boats on the Boardwalk.
* Although Epcot FW stated they were closing @ 7:00 they kept the most popular rides open until 9:30.
* Just as clean as always - And was especailly looking at this.
* Did not notice any decline in maintenance.
* Osborne Light are unbelievable.
* Candlelight Proccesional is absolutly inspiring.
* CMs were super friendly.

Also I went to IOA/US .... Here is goes:

1: US advertised they were open @ 9:00 - only THREE rides opened at 9:00 the rest opened at 10:00. Do we hear people complain about that on the IOA board - NO.
2. What is so great about the themeing of the the IOA coasters?? The Hulk is just painted green and the dueling dragons has a great queue thats it - no story. IMHO RNR is much better themed and has a story line that is incorporated into the ride itself. It might be off the self and not as thrilling but it is better themed.
3. Most of the IOA themeing was bright colors and cardboard cutouts of superheros and cartoon characters. What is so original about that?
4. CMs were HORRIBLE - Not friendly and I actually felt like the rides where NOT safe as they had teenage kids running them and they were not paying attention and fooling around. When I went back to WDW I specifiaclly noticed the ride operators and they were very professioal. I was so mad about this I am going to write IOA.
5. Spiderman is AWESOME - Best ride in Orlando. (But I am waiting for Space!!)
6. Rides and resteraunts were closed.

That all being said I will go back to IOA because I liked the coasters - But I do not understand all of the comparisions with WDW and that IOA is far superior. I did not find that to be the case. Yes they have some great coasters and Spiderman. Also I did think some of the lands especially Port of Entry and the Mythical part has great themimg on par with Disney. The other areas were lacking.

DinoRama - My wife who is not a Disney nut thought is was a great addition to the Dinoland area (we do have a 1yo). Once the whole area is complete I see this as being a good addition to AK.

I guess the bottom line of this whole thread is that some folks hold Disney to unrealistic standards - I did not see the magic fading at all. And as I said I went looking to find faults with Disney and praise for IOA. I get frustrated when forks say they are cancelling Disney trips and spending time at Universal because of the PERCIEVED differences. All the while US/IOA are making the same cuts - they just do not have the Sentenial down thier backs.

I did not receive a IOA/US discount because 75% of the park did not open until 10:00am. In effect it was a 10:00 am opening with 9:00am early entry.

Going back in April - but this time with a better attitude.

Dave O.

[Bob O]

The main aspect of dueling dragons is the dueling/collison aspect and if they arent dueling the ride would suffer but it still better than any disney coaster created.
I dont like disney using people like areosmith as part of their prop(unless you glorify drug/alcohol usage in a family park). The indoor themeing was just cutouts and bright lights in the dark but the ride itself isnt as thrilling or enjoyable as HULK IMHO. The launch of Hulk was better, the tunnel and inversions were better and ride capacity is also better. I' ll take a B & M over a vekoma anyday.

[DaveO]

Bob - I agree with you that the two rides are more thrilling - But people have argued that they are better themed thus out doing Disney in that area. In my opinion I did not see that. Plus ALL of Marvel island were just cutouts and bright paint. Yes RNR just has cutouts but it incorporated the story into the ride.

Dave O.

[YoHo]

Personally, I prefer Aerosmith who have sobered up and are very anti Drug to a band that perhaps hasn't sobered up yet.

[Bob O]

DaveO i would agree the theming OF DD isnt great but the ride is meant to be the aspect of the coasters almost hitting each other but the theme of the ride que is excellant.
Yoho what would disney do if some member of areosmith goes off the wagon and gets involved in a serious incident(which is very possible when you look at the relapse rate of drunks and drug addicts)??? Close the ride itself??? Change the movie to another band?? Even a supposedly sobered up aerosmith doesnt protray a clean cut/wholesome family image does it?? If eisner is so worried he is changing jokes in movie scripts wouldnt he have been worried about this also??

[Another Voice]

“Plus ALL of Marvel island were just cutouts and bright paint. Yes RNR just has cutouts but it incorporated the story into the ride.”

Well, isn’t Marvel Island supposed to represent a comic book world – two dimensional and filled with bright primary colors? Seems to me that cutouts and bright colors work there.

I’ve never seen a cutout day-glow palm tree while I’ve been driving the L.A. freeways, so how does they make RnR a superior ride?

Unless, of course, it’s supposed to represent Aerosmith’s perception of L.A. in their pre-sober years….

[DVC-Landbaron]

Peter!!! What are you talking about???!!!???:p :confused: :confused: :p

[Peter Pirate]

Did I say something???:( :jester: :D
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[DaveO]

This is the issue I have. It is OK for IOA to have cutouts and bright colors because it works. But when Disney does it it is cheap and out of place. What do you want them to put in a coaster going 60MPH?? What would make the anti-Disney folks happy? Some detailed scenes that no one will be able to see bacause they are going so fast?

What happened to the theory of they theming it cheap so they can build it cheap? Does that not aplpy to IOA as well? Couldn't IOA have biult a Gotham type town as in the Spiderman ride? But they went the cheap way.

I smell some double standards .....

Dave O.

[Peter Pirate]

DaveO, you've hit the nail on the head and I suspect some the opposition might even agree. The fact is that Dsney IS held to a higher standard. This, of course, makes comparisons to other Parks nearly impossible or skewed, to say the least. Aside from your observation, have you also noticed all of the people lately complaining about the Disney cutbacks - saying they're going to IOA or Busch because Disney in't treating them right? Like US & Busch haven't cut back? Like their employees are on a par with CM's? Or their prices are cheaper than Disney? Disney is just the Company that many love to hate, I guess...Or hold to that floating "higher standard".

To me RnR is a Great Disney Coaster. I love the 'rock concert' theme. Aerosmith comes across very well, the music is all american and the attraction has a great hook (the launch) and then an easy, smooth ride, which (IMO) is typically Disney. Some people think the cut-outs cheap, the alley scene cheesy & Areosmith inappropriate. Not me, It is easily one of my families favorite rides.

So Dave, I'm right with you on your obsevations & even your observations on your observations!:D
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[All Aboard]

What cardboard cut-outs are we talking about here? I don't recall Marvel Super Hero Island to be composed of cardboard cut-outs. I think the look and feel of that section of IOA is great. It is very well themed to the subject matter. It's loud, has lots of bold color, the buildings look terrific. Makes me feel like I've been dropped into a Marvel Comic.

I don't have a beef with any of the "islands" at IOA. I think they are all very well done.

[OnWithTheShow]

Forks are canceling their trips? But then how will we eat? The situation is much more severe then we thought. You all better make sure to bring some fork friends next time so you can enjoy all the delicious food (especially Mama Melrose's).

[d-r]

Aerosmith is about as middle of the road and mainstream as you can get. Jeez, what would they do if Bill Nye or Ellen or Rick Moranis or Whoopie or Eric Idel or Micheal Jackson were involved in an incident? Well, scratch the last one.

DR

[larworth]

I have to side with gcurling. I think the effort IOA put into theming in general is up to Disney standards (see exceptions). Marvel Island has a different feel, and I can understand the comments about the superhero icons. It just doesn’t give me the feel of being cheap. I think some of the work in the Lost Continent and JP is as good as anything domestic.

The most glaring exception is DDragons. Once you leave the station I definitely feel like I’m at Six Flags. You see storage buildings, chain link fences, weeds. A poor job of allocating money between the queue and the ride surroundings (the queue should really be made into a separate walk-through interactive attraction).

The Hulk doesn’t have these problems, but it is not themed ala BTMRR. If this is the standard, than none of the recent external coasters (Hulk, CA Screamin, Primeval Whirl) makes the cut. It will be interesting to see if Reign of Fire is totally in the dark, or if it will have some external elements and how these get handled.

I think Aeorosmith has been an excellent choice for RnR coaster. Now, if they would just get around to connecting up the rest of the track. I have to believe there is another minute of ride time in there somewhere they haven’t opened up yet. They didn’t really only design it to be a 1:20 ride did they? Anyone seen the place with the lights on?

[Another Voice]

“The fact is that Dsney IS held to a higher standard.”

Perhaps that’s because The Company spends several hundred million dollars a year telling me that and more than a few posters scream about “magic like no where else” every chance they get. The reason many of us in the rabid, menacing “anti-Disney” mob first became fans of The Company was because of those higher standards. Perhaps to us pitch-fork wheedling “anti-Disney” types, perhaps “excellence” requires more than a brand name, perhaps it requires effort.

Funny but when Disney is actually held to those higher standards, those same people “pro-Disney” people scream that Disney is a company and that everyone else is doing the same thing. I go back to the original point of the post – if “cut-outs and bright paint” make ‘Marvel Island’ cheap and tawdry, and if we apply the same standards to ‘Rock’n Rollercoaster’, doesn’t that mean the ride is cheap and tawdry also? And on the flip side, if cutouts and black light paint are perfect ‘RnR’ themeing, why the double standard for ‘Marvel’ – why okay for Los Angeles and not a comic book? (Granted, there’s not much real in real L.A. anyway, but just for the sake of discussion).

Besides the brand name – why is the double standard applied here? And if Marvel Island is cheap, compare that to Dino-Rama. And if the criteria for “too fast to see anything” applies, what about all the detail on Big Thunder Mountain. Have people’s eyesight deteriorated so much in the last fifteen years? Why on not rip out the town (by show of hands, how many people actually can see the flooded out town on the ride?) and other themeing on the ride, and replace it with RnR cutouts? Again, the same logic being applied. Besides, wasn’t Disney know for the layers and layers of detail that isn’t noticed by the casual observer – that’s what used to make them “special”?

The frustration of us torch-bearing “anti-Disney” folks is that every time we try to hold Disney to its own standards, every time we try to push for even greater excellence – we’re meet by the gang of “Eisner-wraiths” telling us that less is better and to shut-up. There is a belief that simply naming something “Disney” makes it “magical”.

Well folks, it doesn’t. I don’t believe for a second that “Universal Studios’ Rock-n-Rollercoaster Starring Aerosmith” would be defended for a split second or that it would be proclaimed as a fine family attraction with the same force that “Disney’s Rock-n-Rollercoaster” is defended around here. Reality may be perception and personal preference can mean a lot, but cold hard facts have a way of working their way to the surface over time.

Like any other company, Disney doesn’t set the standards - its customers do. Defending Disney by saying it’s no worse than of the other companies out there simply means Disney is no better than any of the other companies out there.

[Safari Steve]

You don't have any problems with a company that from it's opening day had mostly 'PG-13' attractions, and up until the year before IOA opened, had very few guidelines involving employee appearance, conduct, or attitude? When I went to US for the first time at age 14, I was sworn at by an employee. When we complained, we were told "so what?" And as far as Dave's assumption that some of the attractions at UO's original park are not safe, I'd have to agree after a personal tour with their head ride/show manager, who was very embarrassed by the middle of the tour, to say the least.

Oh yes, and not only do the AB and UO parks cost the same (for alot less in many cases), but Busch was the first company in FL to have admission tickets top the $50 mark.

[kamgen]

I just returned from 8 days at WDW and toured all the parks, DTD, and BB. All I can say is that the Disney magic is alive and well.
And the only thing I noticed that was bad was all the rude people who "act" like they are having a good time when all they are doing is complaining.

Should we compare US/IOA with WDW??? NO! They are not the same thing and are not trying to be. Let it go.

If you like them both, more power to you. If you dislike one of them, don't go there. It is simple ya know?!?!....

Kamy :)

[Bob O]

Dave O What i want is for disney to build a world class thrill coaster, not a tame one with some cheap cutouts!! Not one hidden inside a building but one outside that is a long ride with extreme elements, not a family coaster like all their coasters but a coaster that would scare alot of people from riding. Or if not a coaster why not something unique like Spiderman still is! Mission space hopefully will fit the bill.

[Peter Pirate]

Mission Space will hopefully fit the bill
And maybe not. Bob O, like it or not Disney has NEVER been interested in this medium. They are "thrilling" those of us who DO NOT want the "world class" stomach convulsions, yet still feel accomplished at riding an exciting roller coaster (our opinion). Now as discussion has occured on this very subject many times, I will admit that the possibility exists that Disney could someday enter this arena, but general consensus is that this will only be when the profitabilty can be both quantified and qualified...don't hold your breath.
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[DaveO]

AV - What do mean 'cold hard facts' ? What you are talking about is personal taste. When I asked my party of 8 what they liked best - Spiderman, ToT, and RnR toped the list. The non- Disney nuts even made a comment about how IOA employees must be 'Disney rejects'.

'Magic' is not just rides. I would even argue it is less than 25%. When I go to Dinsey it it the feel and CMs that make the magic. I do not know how many CMs stoped to say hello to my 1 yo son and played with him. How many warm hellos and good evenings. How many 'Welcome Home' greetings we got being a part of DVC. How the CM stoped to help us with our carriage multiple times. When they screwed up our dinner reservations, how they gave us $50 worth of free appitizers, appologized profusely, and personally escorted us to front row seats at Fantasmic. It is the Osbore Light and Candlelight Prosessional. That is that is the Magic. No other place can compete - at least for me.

What did I get at IOA - empoyees who did not look at you. No hellos. And kids fooling around running rides while they were not even pretending to pay attention to the safty of guests.

Because one ride is more thrilling does not make it better for some folks. For my 1 yo Dumbo and Alaladin are thrill rides. I still will hold on to my belief that RnR and even Space Mountain are far superior in theming than Hulk and DD.

Thunder Mtn does not go 60MPH upside down. The flooded town scene is also there for the folks (not forks - sorry for typo - picky picky) on the train.

All my post tried to do is pursuade all lurkers that US/IOA are making the SAME IF NOT MORE cutbacks as Disney - There are just not as many people whining about it.

I am not saying cutbacks are good - but if people are making decisions based on what they read here they need to get the correct story.

Now back to lurking - let the flaming begin ...... :smooth:

Dave O.

[YoHo]

Bob O, I would be fine with your coaster idea as long as the themeing was on par with BTMRR. I would rather the entire complex be destroyed then have it fouled with an Eyesore which is what I consider most typical World Class coasters.
(fun for some? Yes! nice to look at? not hardly!)

[Peter Pirate]

Don't just lurk, Dave O. You have a lot to offer. The Rumors Board does do a lot of debating & just plain "baiting" but don't let it get to you. It's all for fun & games & all that really matters it that you enjoy yourself! So grin at the comments made by those of opposing viewpoints...and hit 'em when they aint lookin'...metaphorically speaking, of course!
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[DVC-Landbaron]

I will admit that the possibility exists that Disney could someday enter this arena, but general consensus is that this will only be when the profitability can be both quantified and qualifiedYa see, my good Pirate, this is where we disagree!! I think we (and by ‘we’ I mean the Disney corporation) needs to define the philosophy first!! Then, AND ONLY THEN, can they look to see how to maximize profits, WITHIN that philosophy! And although I’ve been agreeing an awful lot lately with the esteemed Bob O, I think we part ways when it comes to coasters (or thrill rides in general) in Disney.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I LOVE roller coasters. But I have a real problem incorporating the “thrill” philosophy into my (admitted subjectivity) Disney. I would much rather have them take those precious resources and develop something wonderful, perhaps dark, surely creative and most importantly, family oriented!! And that means something for my little 7 year old who has an AVM and cannot ride fast rides, as well as my grandmother who isn’t as adventurous as JeffJewell’s!!

So grin at the comments made by those of opposing viewpoints...and hit 'em when they ain’t lookin' Ahhh! I will remember that at our next meet, Mr. Pirate!!! ;)

[raidermatt]

AV- I agree with your general point, which I believed you summed up very well in your last paragraph, as follows.

Defending Disney by saying it’s no worse than of the other companies out there simply means Disney is no better than any of the other companies out there.

And if the discussion is just around what can/should Disney do better, I agree, there is no need to bring up Universal. But I think DaveO's frustration, as well as my own, is when the "Anti-Disney forks" say they are going to Universal because of Disney's deterioration. When truly equal standards are applied in an unbiased manner, Disney still comes out on top (coaster enthusiasts aside). The gap may not be what some think it should be, and that's fine, but to settle for an inferior product, just because the superior one is not as superior as it one would like it to be does not make sense, and that was DaveO's point.

[Planogirl]

Maybe you weren't disappointed with WDW because you weren't expecting as much.

We all tend to have VERY high expectations of WDW because Disney taught us to have those. If we quit expecting as much as before, I agree that we won't tend to be disappointed. I personally don't expect too much from Universal but that doesn't make me wonder if next year wouldn't be a good time to finally see Universal and once again Sea World and Busch Gardens. Not to mention the beaches. I hear that Florida has some nice beaches. :D

I also approve of Aerosmith as the choice for Rock n Roller Coaster. They have not only cleaned up their act but they tend to appeal to MOST age groups which I believe is real important. I personally can't imagine a better choice.

[Peter Pirate]

Landbaron, I'm not so certain that I don't disagree with the Corporation, as well. Surprised? I personally like the philosopy you've espoused, but I was just clearing the air with regard to why Disny is not realistically likely to build a 'world class' coaster - or at least what it would take for that to happen. :)

As to the coaster itself, I find mysel in mild disagreement with my brother at arms scoop as I don't really care about the "cut-outs" one way or another. Cheap[? Sure, but for RnR, an indoor ride basically in the dark, where you're screaming by them (at what seems like break neck speeds) a cool animatronic would be wasted money - heck I can't even find the hidden Mickey!

AV, as an aside to raidermatt's piece, personally I don't need to compare Disney to other parks, it's irrelevent to me, but many seem to want to prove the Disney slippage by comparing to others, seemingly showing a closeness in quality that I don't see (so it's no more than preaching to the chior). Further, I see no harm in befitting Disney with the benefit of the doubt for all they have accomplished and given us, be it tangble or PR. The fact is Disney has earned our respect in some measure or we wouldn't be here discussing the merits of a multinational conglomerate. The fact that some feel it disappearing more than others or due to different circumstances is really where the discussion lies, right?

Planogirl, we agree again (finally) on Aerosmith! But I think Dave stated quite clearly that he WAS looking for problems on his trip & simply didn't find them. This seems to be a constant theme (not that problems are never found) but very often now, it seems we're getting more 'busineess as usual' type reports than not, & the complaints are coming from the folks who haven't been recently & have more to do with the cutbacks (both perceived & real).
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[Peter Pirate]

...because he speaks so much more eloquently, sarcastically an direct than I...

My sarcasam has been mentioned two days in a row...I guess you guys do read my posts, sniff, sniff...:jester:
To the matter at hand, for which I've been given scoops "bandwith", sorry...I've got to go to work, but alas, if the subject is still hangng when I return...
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[JeffJewell]

All my post tried to do is pursuade all lurkers that US/IOA are making the SAME IF NOT MORE cutbacks as Disney - There are just not as many people whining about it. Now back to lurking - let the flaming begin ...... ...if you get any flames, I'd wager it would only be for categorizing what many folks consider to be legitimate complaints as "whining." I'd expect to recieve flames if I was to categorize your obviously valid views as "kissing Disney's behind," for instance. We're not all going to agree on one answer to this, and if you're going to get people to agree to disagree with you in this medium, you're going to have to choose your words pretty carefully.

That said, I simply don't see the other theme parks as offering any meaningful evidence upon which to judge "Disney Magic," in either direction. It has been mentioned that no other theme parks have even attempted to supply that historical brand of Disney Magic, and that's true. For that very reason, I view any attempt to either justify or discredit the label "Disney Magic" by using examples of businesses who never pretended to be offering that product as inconsequential to the argument (Indeed, it is Disney's lack of superior performance, not the other parks sudden adoption of superior performance, that prompted these comparisons in the first place).

I recently posted a list of some of the highlights of my recent trip. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Disney is suddenly bereft of any Magic at all. Something I didn't say in that thread is that, unless at least some of the hours are restored such that we can get started in a park by 7:30 or so, we will not maintain the habit we've developed of visiting WDW about every three or four months. Without going into too much "whining," the change in hours ended up for us meaning that, instead of going to a park early, having a late breakfast or early lunch, taking a break and then hitting a second park, we ate breakfast, went to one park for the day, then ate dinner. Instead of two three- to four-hour park sessions with a nice break between them, we got one four- to five-hour park session with no break (and while I certainly don't mean to imply that the specific wants and needs of my family are universal [no pun intended], I will demand that this reality be recognized as true for at least some subset of the vacationing population).

For my family, any comparison of Universal to Disney is a joke; like comparing apples and orangutans. We are comparing Disney's current offering to the offering that Disney, for better or worse, has us expecting based on previous visits; and we find Disney's current product lacking on that basis, alone.

DaveO, I hope this came across as discussing an issue upon which we disagree, and not as a flame of your opinion. I believe your non-lurking status to be a positive thing, in the big picture of the boards, even though I'm likely to want to argue an opposing viewpoint, on occasion.

Jeff

[Horizons16]

Ha yeah go disney no problems.
~Steve

[Bob O]

DVC im a coaster nut so i personally(and selfishly) would love a world class thrill ride. But besides that i think disney could use a great coaster(also excellantly themed) that would appeal to the teenage set. I also agree that i would love a dark ride on par with POTC but they dont seem to build those anymore. I do think disney could use some ride/show/attraction for a more adult audience like Universal has the horror makeup show.

Peter Pirate i think a world class coaster could be easily marketed for both a local and world pr campaign and disney could make money off of it. It may even enocurage people who love coasters but may not go to a disney park because of a perception its not a thrill park but once they go will find what a great place it is. Myself i love coasters and go to other parks to get that experience but nothing compares to disney in the overall package.

yoho i dont know if you've been to busch gardems williamsburg but they have a great coaster called Alpengist that is outside but also excellantly themed as a runaway ski tram with all the bells and whistles you would expect from disney. So i think it can be done right it they wanted to rather than hiding the coasters inside. i havent been to DCA to see califoria screamin so i dont know if they did any themeing with that coaster.

DaveO you may seem some flaming on other boards on this site but i enjoy this site the best because i think that even if we disagree we do get along and agree to disagree but still have great and lengthy discussions!

[raidermatt]

BobO- I agree that a world class coaster or two, that are excellently themed, could be a good thing. In fact, I think a 5th gate that is slanted in this direction could be an excellent addition to WDW, if done right. I realize that there is a need to beef up AK, but that can continue to occur, since a 5th gate would still be several years away.

Disney had not really worried about the true coaster enthusiasts in the past, but in today's environment of needing to find new ways to grow business, it maybe time for a change... Its true that big coasters and thrill rides tend to split-up some families, but right now, they are splintering off to Universal. Why not keep them on site?

I also agree that elaborate, well done, non-stomach churning rides, like Pirates, are also important, and should not be abandoned.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I agree that a world class coaster or two, that are excellently themed, could be a good thing.
<<< SNIP >>>
I also agree that elaborate, well done, non-stomach churning rides, like Pirates, are also important, and should not be abandoned. So, where does this leave us?

OK, you're head mouse. Your bean counters tell you that their research shows that a new ride, a true "E" ticket ride, will increase revenue by X%. They tell you that the numbers show that sponsorship and corporate funding, augmented by Disney Dollars is $XXX.XX. That's all you've got to spend!!! A finite amount of money!! NO MORE!!!

As any self respecting top mouse you immediately place a call to your head Imagineer. Eager to finally get a green light on ANY project he rushes to your office and lays several stupendous concepts on you. After an hour's worth of enthusiasm he pauses, eye wide, waiting….

So. What do you tell him?

Flesh out that dark ride. Very cool!! Very family!! We need more of those!! It's what put us on the map!!

Or

100 miles an hour is too slow!!! Bump up that speed!! And theme it to the MAX!!!!

The point is you can't always have both. There's only so much money to go around (and lately that isn't even enough for a decent "C" ride!!) So which direction would you like to see Disney go. Thrill? Or dark?

I LOVE thrill, but for Disney, gimme dark, any day of the week!!!

[Horizons16]

That is a tpugh dission. dark or thrills i would not want to be top mouse
~Steve

[Testtrack321]

The only decent ride I went on was SpiderMan at IOA. The CM's were awfull, they had no parade, and almost everything else cost money to play! I will still go back, but I wouldn't stay at one of their resorts or go to City Walk. Universal can afford to cut corners, just like Six Flags (my other one that I hate), and the Paramount parks (though the 007 ride they got rid of was the best motion simulator I have ever ridden..). If Disney did something like IOA, certain Disney forums would be up their @$$ before they even built it.... But no specific forms (*DIS*Cough*DIS);) :D ;) :D ;)

[raidermatt]

So which direction would you like to see Disney go. Thrill? Or dark?

Your point is well-taken. And that is exactly why I think the "100 mph is to slow" rides would be very appropriate in a 5th gate. Certainly opening a 5th gate risks cannibilization, as has been pointed out by several here. However, a 5th gate that can still be family oriented, and targets families that are spending time at Universal is less likely to steal customers from the other 4 parks. With the clear revenue stream ahead, the bean counters will have some beans to put on the other side of the ledger. The opening would again be an "unfinished" park, so that revenue can start coming in sooner, and so that guest reaction can dictate how/when the park expands.

Meanwhile, tweaking continues at the big three, as it always will. The AK expansion continues, but at the same controlled deliberate pace it is moving now. Part of this tweaking/expansion is an occasional E-ticket dark ride. I'm not picky about which park gets the first one, though AK needs it the most.

Without the opportunity to count the beans myself, I really don't believe this to be an unreasonable financial scenario. For instance, I don't believe all other development stopped while DCA and AK were built. Granted, $$$ are tighter now, but I don't believe they are THAT tight. If the plan was to build one or two "100 MPH" rides in the existing parks, then I think it would suck up most of the develpment money, because the potential revenue increase becomes murkier.

All that said, if the choice came down to one dark ride and one big thrill ride in the exisitng parks, I would go with the dark, because I believe it would be unwise to try to draw the big coaster crowd into the existing parks. One coaster would not be enough to bring them in on a consistent basis. A dark ride appeals to the core crowd that must be kept.

[Bob O]

If i had to choose i would go for a world clas coaster (with great theming)as its something they dont have right now. It would help get a younger crowd and go after a different segment then they do now. Unless they did a spiderman type dark ride, but that would cost alot more than a roller coaster does. Spiderman from reports ive read cost over 100 million if true. Cedar Point built a record breaking coaster Millineum Force which reportedly cost 25 million.
Testtrack my expeirnces at the Universal parks have always been very good with no CM problems. I thought Hulk and DD were great thrill rides and the kids enjoyed the kid rides/play areas. I stayed at the Portifino and i perferred it over the Beach club at wdw. And staying on site at universal offers a perk that disney cant beat-front of the line access!!!!!! You cant beat riding a ride like Hulk/Spiderman/MIB 6-8 times in a row with only having to walk several feet thru a baby swap area and go right back on the ride, that was truely magical!!

[Horizons16]

I do like roller coasters the RnR is cool.
~Steve

[DaveH]

OK folks how many people remember the speed of Space Mountain when it opend? It was around 60 or 65MPH!!! The have slowed it over the years to the 35MPH today. A couple of years ago I went on Space Mountain and the lightest person(not me LOL) was around 150 pounds. At the end of every drop the breaks were slowing us down so when you were at the bottom you were leaning forward. BTW when Space Mountain opened it was dark not dusk light like now.

[Horizons16]

I think i reaad some place that it was slowed becuase a lady cracked her neck or snapped it or whatever. Dont hold me to that it may just be a rumor.
~Steve

[DaveH]

My understanding is over the years they had several different kinds of problems of folks getting hurt, such as heart attacks and other injuries. The earlier ride was not one person per seat. you could have 3 in front of each other.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Space mountain, I was told when it opened, travels at 28 miles per hour!!! It was one of those trivia questions that surfaces every so often from monorail pilots and bus drivers. Back in the late seventies they used to get a kick out the guest's reaction when they learned, again at the time, that the fastest 'ride' in all of WDW was the Monorail!! Everyone was sure it was Space Mountain. They were truly shocked, as I was, when they learned that Space only hit a velocity of 28 MPH, whereas the monorail, when really pressed could go as fast as 45 MPH.

You are correct however in thinking that it's not quite the same as when it first opened. They did "tame" the ride somewhat by taking out some really hairpin-like turns and/or drops within the first year or so. That's it!!! As far as I know they didn't reduce the speed at all!

[larworth]

The dark ride gets the nod, but I would really like to see what WDI would propose to do with a major world class coaster that no one else has attempted.

While, I enjoy the two IOA coasters, neither are revolutionary when it comes to the use of theming. The pre-load theming is extensive, but theming does not really play a role in the ride experience itself. They were clever enough to build something else unique into each ride (dueling aspect and the only launched B&M) to give them some shelf life. Alpengeist and Montu both have more than average theming, but it again does not dramatically alters the experience, other than add a pleasantness factor.

There just has to be more that can be done with this medium than the occasional tunnel or head-chopper effect!!!

Disney shouldn’t try to lure the coaster enthusiast with faster or bigger, but rather with “enhanced!”.


Disney has always had to balance the thrill factor (try not to lose too many at each end of the spectrum). Given that their thrill rides are still their more popular, they appear to have been doing a pretty good job in this balancing act. I guess the question is can this balance be maintained with the recent bout of thrill inflation. The coaster wars of the last few years have deposited more extreme rides in so many more parks that the level of thrill experienced by the average park goer has probably more than doubled.

[fklhou]

I do not know if they slowed down Space Mountain or took some of the more extreme curves out. A good friend worked for Disney in the internal audit section in 1970s and told me about the lawsuits concerning Space Mountain. There were several moderate to severe injuries on the ride early on that were corrected quickly after opening.

[jcodespoti]

Just a side point. I truly love roller coasters they are my favorite rides..the teacups thats another story. In New England the Superman at six flags is awesome really fast. They did have a teeny tiny problem though. Seems at the very end of the ride they could not get the coaster to stop so it smashed into the one in front of it while it getting ready to load passengers (they only run 1 coaster now instead of 2). I did notice the "adults" running the thing were about 18 tops, with as much gusto as a sloth. Was it their fault? I don't know. But my point is ig you got somethin goin about 60 to 70 mph you better have somebody there that knows how to stop the thing.


Joe in CT

[Testtrack321]

There were many rumors about attractions when they were new and nobody rode it. Persion A swore that it went 90 MPH. Persion B said they almost got killed on a drop. Especialy when it is new, rides get a tendency to be over hyped and rumored. Since only a few hundred thousand rode it in the begining, you could make up a completely false story easly and not have anyone dissagree with you (with in limmits) because they wern't there! Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain, Test Track, and JIYI are some of the rides I have heard rumors about in it's early stages of being a ride. Haunted Mansion, lady had heart attack, there is a good example. They said this happened almost 3 years before it opened, and the SHOW BUILDING WASN'T EVEN BUILT!!!!!!!!!

[space42]

Yes, agreed about Space Mountain. The only things that have changed since the ride opened are as follows; The pre and post show have changed several times as sponsors changed (RCA, FedEX) Along with adding the TV's in the queue. They also added the arcade at the exit in '94 as part of the new Tomorrow Land. It appears to be a little lighter inside than years ago. The Cars have changes several times. You used to sit two to a seat with one person between your legs on a bench with seat belts. It has ALWAYS been 28mph. As Landbaron said, this was one of those trivia things that Monorail pilots and tram drivers used to tell you about in the late 70's.

Since I first went on Space Mountain sometime in 78 or 79, I have been back at least once a year since then. I do not believe the track has ever changed. If it did change, it would have had to be in the first year or so (since it opened in '77).

My $.02