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View Full Version : Standard Rate for Renting Points... and commercial/professional renters...


JWimberley
01-08-2007, 01:01 AM
This may have been covered ad nauseum before but here I go anyway :rolleyes1

I just got my statement telling me what the maint. fees are going to be for this year at Boardwalk. I know that they are going to go up every year but I believe this is the 3rd year in a row that they have gone up by at least 10%.

I typically try to rent out at least enough points to cover the cost of my fees each year. With this increase I'm wondering if other members that rent their points would consider a rate change to reflect our higher costs.

Moving from the standard $10 a point to $11 or $12 per point isn't going to ruin our chances of renting (we are still well below what Disney is getting). Most of my renters are looking for 45-75 points. The new pricing would cost them an extra $100 on average. It isn't going to break them but will definately offset our extra expense for a while longer.

One thing that it might help with is thinning the herd so to speak. In my last round of point offerings I must have gotten 20 PM's the first day of potential buyers. I was only able to help 3 of them before I ran out of points but I now believe that if I had asked $12 per point I would have gotten a third of the responses and still rented all of the points, especially if I wasn't being undercut by other owners.

Ok, I'll relinquish the soapbox... Don't worry, I'm a firefighter so feel free to flame on, I can take it :firefight

Tell me what you guys think...

Joshua

---------------------------------

I edited the title to reflect a natural progression in what this topic has become about...

tjkraz
01-08-2007, 01:04 AM
Tell me what you guys think...


I think your thread relates to rental price fixing and is going to get locked as soon as a moderator sees it. ;)

calypso*a*go-go
01-08-2007, 03:10 AM
Great in theory...but a little difficult when half the posts on the rent/trade board right now are offering points for $7-$9.

Doctor P
01-08-2007, 06:08 AM
This may have been covered ad nauseum before but here I go anyway :rolleyes1

I just got my statement telling me what the maint. fees are going to be for this year at Boardwalk. I know that they are going to go up every year but I believe this is the 3rd year in a row that they have gone up by at least 10%.

I typically try to rent out at least enough points to cover the cost of my fees each year. With this increase I'm wondering if other members that rent their points would consider a rate change to reflect our higher costs.

Based on the dues history that has been posted, the BWV increases the past three years have been (2005): 3.8%; (2006): 6.3%; (2007): 3.4%. Only one time besides 2006 has the annual dues increase even reached 4%. The total dues increase since 1997 (10 years of dues increases) has been $1.01.

Your reasoning therefore is fatally flawed. Furthermore, the cost per point to buy in has stayed at below $2.25 per point for some time when divided over the length of the contract. There may be ways to justify higher rental rates, but increased cost of ownership really doesn't hold much water as the justification.

Starr W.
01-08-2007, 08:43 AM
Great in theory...but a little difficult when half the posts on the rent/trade board right now are offering points for $7-$9.

Those numbers always seem to go with points that have to be used within one-three months!

Deb & Bill
01-08-2007, 01:31 PM
Just looking at the number of posts on the R/T Board, the number of people wanting to rent seems to be increasing.

JandD Mom
01-08-2007, 02:35 PM
One thing that it might help with is thinning the herd so to speak. In my last round of point offerings I must have gotten 20 PM's the first day of potential buyers. I was only able to help 3 of them before I ran out of points but I now believe that if I had asked $12 per point I would have gotten a third of the responses and still rented all of the points, especially if I wasn't being undercut by other owners.

Ok, I'll relinquish the soapbox... Don't worry, I'm a firefighter so feel free to flame on, I can take it :firefight

Tell me what you guys think...

Joshua

I also wanted to post before it gets locked, and say I agree with you 100%. :thumbsup2

However, I disagree with your pricing, and think $12 is way too low.:lmao:

dumbo71
01-08-2007, 03:17 PM
I think your thread relates to rental price fixing and is going to get locked as soon as a moderator sees it. ;)



I agree and I'm not so sure your 10% yearly increase of BWV dues is accurate either.


Edit: Thank you Doctor P for posting the facts.

DebbieB
01-08-2007, 04:57 PM
Boardwalk was only only about 3%.

JWimberley
01-08-2007, 05:37 PM
Based on the dues history that has been posted, the BWV increases the past three years have been (2005): 3.8%; (2006): 6.3%; (2007): 3.4%. Only one time besides 2006 has the annual dues increase even reached 4%. The total dues increase since 1997 (10 years of dues increases) has been $1.01.

Thanks for the clarification. I was going stricktly by memory which admitedly is seriously flawed... :confused3 Seems I was looking at the monthly drafts of $58 going up to $65 but that is just the first month, then it comes back down to about $61...

If the thread does get locked then I apologize for bringing a forbidden topic, I plead ignorance to the rule.

Thanks for those that have supported me and I look forward to another healthy rental season next year!

kespo
01-08-2007, 06:08 PM
I agree with you totally. About $4 a point goes towards main. fees. I would love to see a slight increase.

CarolMN
01-08-2007, 07:07 PM
...(snip).....If the thread does get locked then I apologize for bringing a forbidden topic, I plead ignorance to the rule....It's not a forbidden topic. Threads are closed for several reasons - the most common reason is mutiple posts that violate Board posting guidelines.

Other than the OT posts predicting thread closure (which I choose to ignore for the moment, LOL), I see no reason to close this particular thread. :)

Those who might like to review the posting guidelines (I know, wishful thinking on my part, LOL), will find them here:

http://www.wdwinfo.com/guidelines.htm

JWimberley
01-09-2007, 09:31 AM
Thanks Carol, I appreciate the feedback and I will be sure to check those posting guidelines out just for you ;)

Joshua

UConnJack
01-09-2007, 10:12 AM
Just looking at the number of posts on the R/T Board, the number of people wanting to rent seems to be increasing.

Exactly, and if rental rates are to go up, this will be why. Classic supply and demand. Unfortunately, supply will probably continue to rise as well as DVC grows. If anything creates a larger demand than supply, it will be DVC's crackdown on "commercial" renting....if successful.

I would love to see rental rates at $11-$12 consistently too (not that I rent very often), but I don't believe in price fixing, even if it were possible to do here. If you want to get $11-$12 per point, you can, you just need to be more patient and wait for the right renter. Many renters are willing to pay that much under the right conditions (e.g., right resort, making daily reservations 11-months out, comfort with a particular owner, owner's experience renting, T&Cs, etc.)

Johnnie Fedora
01-10-2007, 02:39 PM
With the huge the MF increases (HHI), I won't rent for less than $13-17 especially for S-Th stays.

With so many owners giving away their points to internet strangers, I'm beginning to think I should just sell one of my contracts and buy transfered points for $7-9.

Why buy the cow?

Dean
01-10-2007, 02:49 PM
I feel price fixing is illegal but understand the idea. OTOH, if one wants to discuss the merits of why the price should be higher OR wants to post that they feel it should be higher, that should be OK. I feel it should routinely be higher and don't intend to rent non distressed points below about $12-13 per point but that's me, others can do what they want.

JWimberley
01-10-2007, 05:33 PM
I feel price fixing is illegal but understand the idea. OTOH, if one wants to discuss the merits of why the price should be higher OR wants to post that they feel it should be higher, that should be OK. I feel it should routinely be higher and don't intend to rent non distressed points below about $12-13 per point but that's me, others can do what they want.

Now that was mighty diplomatic... I think Dean may be a politician in real life :laughing: In all seriousness though, I'm not trying to get a price fixing DVC cartel together, I just want people to think about the fact that we are already renting at almost half the price Disney is getting for cash reservations. Lets not devalue our inventory and lets be patient and strong enough to ask for every penny that it is worth!

Joshua

Slakk
01-10-2007, 05:56 PM
I feel price fixing is illegal but understand the idea. OTOH, if one wants to discuss the merits of why the price should be higher OR wants to post that they feel it should be higher, that should be OK. I feel it should routinely be higher and don't intend to rent non distressed points below about $12-13 per point but that's me, others can do what they want.

I totally agree - $12-13 would be the bottom for me as well although I have exactly 1 point available so I doubt I would be of much help to anyone LOL!

kespo
01-10-2007, 07:50 PM
Now that was mighty diplomatic... I think Dean may be a politician in real life :laughing: In all seriousness though, I'm not trying to get a price fixing DVC cartel together, I just want people to think about the fact that we are already renting at almost half the price Disney is getting for cash reservations. Lets not devalue our inventory and lets be patient and strong enough to ask for every penny that it is worth!

Joshua

Well said!!!

dumbo71
01-10-2007, 08:12 PM
With the huge the MF increases (HHI), I won't rent for less than $13-17 especially for S-Th stays.

With so many owners giving away their points to internet strangers, I'm beginning to think I should just sell one of my contracts and buy transfered points for $7-9.

Why buy the cow?



You should sell and rent. Can you give up the control to do so? If the answer is yes then sell and rent.

The reason I never rented here on the Dis (I lurked for a while) is because of the $10 price. The lowest I ever rented for was in the $14 range.

Life is full of choices. We don't need price fixing here on the Dis to get higher rates. Either stick to your $12 price or pursue other avenues. I'd suggest the later.

I agre $10 is far to low except for distressed points.

Sammie
01-10-2007, 08:24 PM
The way I see it, if you choose to rent you set the price. You can't expect others to follow your suit, they might not need as much for thiers as you do yours.

Granny
01-10-2007, 10:23 PM
This may have been covered ad nauseum before {snip}
Yep ::yes::

But hey, it takes our minds off of paying for parking debates! :rotfl:

FWIW, I can't see how anyone who buys DVC with the intention of using the points themselves and only occasionally renting them (which I have) would really care a lot about the "average rental price". :confused3

TammyAlphabet
01-10-2007, 11:34 PM
I totally agree - $12-13 would be the bottom for me as well although I have exactly 1 point available so I doubt I would be of much help to anyone LOL!

Sounds like me! I two points, and they aren't coming until September!!:lmao:

JWimberley
01-11-2007, 01:01 AM
Sounds like me! I two points, and they aren't coming until September!!:lmao:

Ha... I have you all beat, I have 20 points left... Wait, what do you mean I don't get those until 2008 :confused3

Joshua
:rolleyes1

PinkTink63
01-11-2007, 02:38 AM
The way I see it, if you choose to rent you set the price. You can't expect others to follow your suit, they might not need as much for thiers as you do yours.

Bingo! I think the people that bought several years ago are fine with $10/pt. Where as people that purchased more recently are not, because they payed much more for their points!
I for one, I didn't buy to rent out my points. I did rent them out last year when I first bought, because we already had our vacation plans made elsewhere.
It seems that people buy more points than they think they will use, just to rent them out?!
I hope I don't have to rent any out again, but it is nice to know we can.

Stephanie

salmoneous
01-11-2007, 10:12 AM
OK, I'll be the anti-Dean here and be not so political. I find the original post hilarious. Here is someone with a bunch of points they only use to rent out and generate income (hmm, what does that sound like). He rents out his points for <$12/point. But he wants everybody else to be patient and strong and hold out for more money.

Rent your points out for whatever you want. If you think they are worth $12 and that you'll have no trouble getting $12, rent your points for $12. Personally, I think you'll be able to get at least $13 with a little bit of work.

But telling other people to hold strong and be patient to make it easier for you to get more money on the points-you-own-to-rent-for-income - yeah right.

crisi
01-11-2007, 12:15 PM
I haven't seen much of a case that they are worth much more than say $12 - I'd go to $12, but it would take a lot to get me to think they are worth much more than that.

No daily housekeeping
Lousy cancellation policy
Have to deal with owner for everything - room requests, ME, DDP
Trust issues and related stress
Disney not backing up the reservation
Need to book months out - with a usually hefty deposit
and the little things - like a room change fee.

Plus, as an owner, I think DVC is a great value and am perfectly happy with it. But it does not compare favorably, IMO, to a Deluxe hotel room - Deluxe hotel rooms are significantly nicer than DVC studios - generally better maintained, better decorated, more comfortable.

DVC is really nice, but its a timeshare, not a Deluxe hotel room.

tjkraz
01-11-2007, 12:22 PM
I haven't seen much of a case that they are worth much more than say $12 - I'd go to $12, but it would take a lot to get me to think they are worth much more than that.


I agree. I'd also add that the great value some see in rentals is quickly diminished to people who want to stay over the weekend. Some people just aren't satisfied with 5-night stays and don't want to switch resorts. If you have to rent points for a Friday and/or Saturday night stay, then $10-12 per point starts to get closer and closer to Disney's rates.

If you prices are so high that those who want weekend nights can't afford rentals anymore, then your rental market shrinks and it doesn't help the situation any. The smaller number looking to rent points will still gravitate toward the lower prices.

I have to laugh every time this subject comes up. Those who WANT to get more than $10 per point CAN get more than $10 per point. The only difference is they will have to work harder than someone willing to take $10 (or less.) Trying to prod everyone to raise prices just strikes me as laziness.

dumbo71
01-11-2007, 02:15 PM
The only difference is they will have to work harder than someone willing to take $10 (or less.) Trying to prod everyone to raise prices just strikes me as laziness.



I completely agree with this.

I also agree with your 7 night reasoning. I booked 6 nights to maximize my return. It also seemed to be closer to what the renters wanted.

crisi
01-11-2007, 03:06 PM
I agree. I'd also add that the great value some see in rentals is quickly diminished to people who want to stay over the weekend. Some people just aren't satisfied with 5-night stays and don't want to switch resorts. If you have to rent points for a Friday and/or Saturday night stay, then $10-12 per point starts to get closer and closer to Disney's rates.

Yep, the weekend thing subtract from the value as well.

Also, the profile of the DVC renter - the customers we are talking about are by and large, in my impression, not Deluxe resort lovers looking for a price break, but bargain shoppers who will be happy staying at POR or CSR if they aren't getting a great deal. Especially the ones we get here (eBay or other venues may have a different profile). In some cases, they are comparing renting DVC points to the All-Stars. In other words, they aren't saying "I can save $500 on my BW stay by renting points" they are saying "I can get into the BW for about the same cost as POR" or "It will only cost us and extra $250 to upgrade to BC from POP if we rent points - that's a good deal." Yes, the upgrade in location and room is worth something to them, but its not worth as much - IMO - as some people would like to believe.

Deb & Bill
01-11-2007, 05:03 PM
Yep, the weekend thing subtract from the value as well.

Also, the profile of the DVC renter - the customers we are talking about are by and large, in my impression, not Deluxe resort lovers looking for a price break, but bargain shoppers who will be happy staying at POR or CSR if they aren't getting a great deal. ....

So why subsidize the bargain shopper? And why advertise the higher weekend rate? Why not just advertise the weekly rate per stay, not per point?

crisi
01-11-2007, 10:56 PM
So why subsidize the bargain shopper? And why advertise the higher weekend rate? Why not just advertise the weekly rate per stay, not per point?


First question:
Supply and demand. If the demand is from the bargain shopper and the price rises, demand will drop, supply will increase - until you find equalibrium. You have to know your customers. If the bargain shoppers aren't buying the points, is there enough market for points at a higher price? I think a few dollars more, but not that much more, but I could be wrong. Most of the people I see staying at Deluxes on the resort board aren't interested in renting DVC points

Second question: That seems to be a very successful strategy for maximizing income, particularly on eBay - from what I understand from others here. Book the reservation and sell it to the highest bidder. It seems to work less well on this site - probably because "per point" is so well engrained in people's behavior. I think also that since the points per week change so much per season - or per period - its a hard thing to advertise without a specific week booked - which lowers the flexibility for the person renting points.

jodifla
01-11-2007, 11:09 PM
I haven't seen much of a case that they are worth much more than say $12 - I'd go to $12, but it would take a lot to get me to think they are worth much more than that.

No daily housekeeping
Lousy cancellation policy
Have to deal with owner for everything - room requests, ME, DDP
Trust issues and related stress
Disney not backing up the reservation
Need to book months out - with a usually hefty deposit
and the little things - like a room change fee.

Plus, as an owner, I think DVC is a great value and am perfectly happy with it. But it does not compare favorably, IMO, to a Deluxe hotel room - Deluxe hotel rooms are significantly nicer than DVC studios - generally better maintained, better decorated, more comfortable.

DVC is really nice, but its a timeshare, not a Deluxe hotel room.



Exactly. People are basically sending a stranger hundreds or thousands of dollars, without really knowing if they'll get anything in return.

You need to feel like you are getting a pretty good deal to take that risk.

And like a PP said, I so rarely rent out points (never yet) why do I care how much they go for. It's not like it's a BUSINESS or anything for me.

DVC Dude
01-11-2007, 11:27 PM
This is an interesting thread.

Somehow, no matter what get posted or agreed by members, the market will find an acceptable price level between buyer and renter no matter if it is $9pp or $13pp.

Plutofan
01-12-2007, 08:33 AM
Updated

Plutofan
01-12-2007, 08:58 AM
Updated

TenThousandVolts
01-12-2007, 09:25 AM
If I have to cancel my trip within 30 dAYS of checkin but I find a friend to take my place, this is no longer allowed? They would force me to cancel and rebook with my friends name? And if there is a waitlist I might not be able to do that?
Is the no name change thing directly related to dvc trying to curb owners renting points? and if so what about the legitimate times when a name change might be in order?

Plutofan
01-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Updated

TenThousandVolts
01-12-2007, 09:41 AM
Plutofan- I never thought about it like that- maybe this whole "no name change" thing will make your chances on the waitlist better. That works for me because it is extremely unlikely that I would need to have an emergency trip cancellation- but highly likely that I will use be using the waitlist at some point. Seems like a member friendly rule.
As far as rental prices- it just seems that the market itself will set the price like with everything else. Supply/demand/yadda...yadda...

dumbo71
01-12-2007, 09:53 AM
I would confirm with MS but that is my understanding from reading other posts and my situation with MS. At first I was surprised but after thinking about it is probably fair since why sould someone who has been witing on the waitlist for months not get first shot at the room. Why should a friend by pass everyone on the waitlist and get the room. People may not like it but it appears to be fair.



Please direct us to that thread because this is news to me.

We CAN and ALWAYS will be able to change names on the ressies IMO. Come on, no changes? Think about the uproar and what that would do to the flexibility of the program?

The "change" you are talking about is that you need to have names and addresses for all of the guests at the time of booking. Doesn't "change" anything. I could still book spec. ressies in my name and then change the names and addresses when the ressie is sold.

I'd bet anything I can go to Ebay right now and find DVC ressies booked on spec. That is not going to change.

salmoneous
01-12-2007, 09:59 AM
I would confirm with MS but that is my understanding from reading other posts and my situation with MS. At first I was surprised but after thinking about it is probably fair since why sould someone who has been witing on the waitlist for months not get first shot at the room. Why should a friend by pass everyone on the waitlist and get the room. People may not like it but it appears to be fair. Very interesting. I always thought this would be a great idea. With one simple rule change, you eliminate 90-95% of the "problems" of commercial renters.

However, there does need to be an offset. If a member (1) has to cancel a reservation at the last minute, (2) has someone else lined up to take that reservation, but (3) is unable to pass the reservation to the person they've lined up because someone on the waitlist gets it instead, that member shouldn't be punished. They points should come back "clean" to the member.

Plutofan
01-12-2007, 10:32 AM
I just called MS and had them check into wait I was told yesterday and other people have reported. The MS personed check with other people in the office and said that there are new MS personal that are being trained and that they are telling people the wrong information. They will pass on the problem to training. The MS advisor said you can still change the name and address on your reservation/waitlist.

Johnnie Fedora
01-12-2007, 11:05 AM
First question:
Second question: That seems to be a very successful strategy for maximizing income, particularly on eBay - from what I understand from others here. Book the reservation and sell it to the highest bidder. It seems to work less well on this site - probably because "per point" is so well engrained in people's behavior. I think also that since the points per week change so much per season - or per period - its a hard thing to advertise without a specific week booked - which lowers the flexibility for the person renting points.

To recieve a higher price on the DIS you must book a desired week, and wait till you are close to the reservation (60 days out) to post it. At that time you can access how must to ask for the reservation b/c you can determine what CRO it getting for a similiar reservation at that timeframe.

crisi
01-12-2007, 11:15 AM
To recieve a higher price on the DIS you must book a desired week, and wait till you are close to the reservation (60 days out) to post it. At that time you can access how must to ask for the reservation b/c you can determine what CRO it getting for a similiar reservation at that timeframe.

That's interesting - does that put you at risk of getting "stuck" with the reservation or needing to fire sale it? It sounds like you have had good luck with that strategy.

JWimberley
01-12-2007, 06:25 PM
OK, I'll be the anti-Dean here and be not so political. I find the original post hilarious. Here is someone with a bunch of points they only use to rent out and generate income (hmm, what does that sound like). He rents out his points for <$12/point. But he wants everybody else to be patient and strong and hold out for more money.

But telling other people to hold strong and be patient to make it easier for you to get more money on the points-you-own-to-rent-for-income - yeah right.

Ok, just for clarification, this is hardly an income stream... My little 150 point contract isn't going to go very far making me $700 per year after dues. As to your statement about being easier to rent at lower dollar amounts, I agree. But then I had to make it easy since I had to cancel a personal reservation due to pregnancy and find someone to take the points off my hands before 3/1/07 or I was out 137 points for the year. I believe those are normally called distressed points.

This topic came into being after I had completed my rentals at the normal $10 per point and then got my dues statement in the mail. In the frustration of seeing how much I didn't get after paying dues I wrote the first message in this chain. I've actually learned a lot from several people and only been insulted by a few :rolleyes: so I feel pretty good about the whole thing.

I am curious as to what made you think I was a commercial renter though...

Joshua

Starr W.
01-12-2007, 08:08 PM
That's interesting - does that put you at risk of getting "stuck" with the reservation or needing to fire sale it? It sounds like you have had good luck with that strategy.


I think it would work, as I see alot of renters looking for ressies that are 60 days or sometimes less out. But then again I see DVC owners trying to rent out points that are going bad in 30-60 days.

keys2kingdom
01-12-2007, 10:05 PM
This may have been covered ad nauseum before but here I go anyway :rolleyes1

I just got my statement telling me what the maint. fees are going to be for this year at Boardwalk. I know that they are going to go up every year but I believe this is the 3rd year in a row that they have gone up by at least 10%.

I typically try to rent out at least enough points to cover the cost of my fees each year. With this increase I'm wondering if other members that rent their points would consider a rate change to reflect our higher costs.

Moving from the standard $10 a point to $11 or $12 per point isn't going to ruin our chances of renting (we are still well below what Disney is getting). Most of my renters are looking for 45-75 points. The new pricing would cost them an extra $100 on average. It isn't going to break them but will definately offset our extra expense for a while longer.

One thing that it might help with is thinning the herd so to speak. In my last round of point offerings I must have gotten 20 PM's the first day of potential buyers. I was only able to help 3 of them before I ran out of points but I now believe that if I had asked $12 per point I would have gotten a third of the responses and still rented all of the points, especially if I wasn't being undercut by other owners.

Ok, I'll relinquish the soapbox... Don't worry, I'm a firefighter so feel free to flame on, I can take it :firefight

Tell me what you guys think...

Joshua

Didn't you have almost this exact same thread four years ago?

keys2kingdom
01-12-2007, 10:15 PM
Ahhh yes.....OK, not exactly the same but really similar.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=340357&referrerid=&highlight=


Are you nuthut in disguise???

Gary K. D.
01-12-2007, 10:47 PM
I think the one thing that most DVC owners who rent some or all of their points do not realize is that there are far more people seeking to rent points from DVC owners than points made available by DVC owners. Let's face it, if the market were truly flooded with points, there would be no reason to rent points from an owner for more than $9.00 per point. Yet many of us who have been renting points for awhile are doing so in the $12.00 to $13.00 per point range and sometimes more. We indeed (I know most find this hard to believe) turn down offers of less than the above figures because we: 1. do not feel pressured to rent for less and have NEVER lost points because they could not be used or rented, and. 2. Do not want to respond to between 40 and 50 e-mails for each post to people looking to rent points at $10.00 per point or less. Beach Club, Boardwalk, Wiilderness and, yes, even Vero points are at a premium if your dates are firm...try to rent a standard view studio at the Boardwalk at 7 months out, Boardwalk, Beach Club or Wilderness around the school vacations, holidays, the marathon or the Food and Wine Festival or a Beach Cottage at Vero during the summer. Unless those reservations are made with home resort points, it simply won't be available at 7 months. For that ability, points must command a higher premium. I would guess that BW, BC, WLV and Vero are near 100% capacity and fully booked by 3 months out. Points that are offered with an expiration in 30-60 days have virtually no value since, regardless of the price asked, there are no rooms available. I think the lesson to be learned here is that the rental prices will only increase through better planning of point usage by the members and the realization that there are far more people seeking to rent points from members that members renting points.

JWimberley
01-13-2007, 12:15 AM
Didn't you have almost this exact same thread four years ago?

That is so weird, I didn't even remember that thread until you mentioned it. Now I'm kicking myself for not taking my own advise :confused3 Ah well, at least I can honestly say I had to do it this time due to time constraints.

Not sure who NutHut is, but no, it's not me...

Joshua

kimberh
01-13-2007, 12:39 AM
This is all very interesting. The weekends do hurt the week long price but the renter may be able to check out to a Disney property and then recheck back in to a DVC property to still save considerable money. Disney will move them, free of charge, of course, there is tipping.

greenban
01-13-2007, 06:14 AM
Ahhh yes.....OK, not exactly the same but really similar.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=340357&referrerid=&highlight=


Are you nuthut in disguise???


Ouch!

-Tony

Deb & Bill
01-13-2007, 08:37 AM
Have I accidently stumbled into the commercial renters group? :scared1:

JWimberley
01-13-2007, 08:41 AM
Have I accidently stumbled into the commercial renters group? :scared1:

Hey, greenban prefers the term Professional Renter thank you very much ;)

UConnJack
01-13-2007, 03:38 PM
I think the one thing that most DVC owners who rent some or all of their points do not realize is that there are far more people seeking to rent points from DVC owners than points made available by DVC owners. Let's face it, if the market were truly flooded with points, there would be no reason to rent points from an owner for more than $9.00 per point. Yet many of us who have been renting points for awhile are doing so in the $12.00 to $13.00 per point range and sometimes more. We indeed (I know most find this hard to believe) turn down offers of less than the above figures because we: 1. do not feel pressured to rent for less and have NEVER lost points because they could not be used or rented, and. 2. Do not want to respond to between 40 and 50 e-mails for each post to people looking to rent points at $10.00 per point or less. Beach Club, Boardwalk, Wiilderness and, yes, even Vero points are at a premium if your dates are firm...try to rent a standard view studio at the Boardwalk at 7 months out, Boardwalk, Beach Club or Wilderness around the school vacations, holidays, the marathon or the Food and Wine Festival or a Beach Cottage at Vero during the summer. Unless those reservations are made with home resort points, it simply won't be available at 7 months. For that ability, points must command a higher premium. I would guess that BW, BC, WLV and Vero are near 100% capacity and fully booked by 3 months out. Points that are offered with an expiration in 30-60 days have virtually no value since, regardless of the price asked, there are no rooms available. I think the lesson to be learned here is that the rental prices will only increase through better planning of point usage by the members and the realization that there are far more people seeking to rent points from members that members renting points.

Proverbial nail on the head.

salmoneous
01-14-2007, 08:50 AM
I am curious as to what made you think I was a commercial renter though...Joshua Given the baggage certain words have around here I would never call anybody a commercial renter.

I did point out that you bought points that you don't intend to use for yourself, but intend to rent out year over year in order to make money.

dianeschlicht
01-14-2007, 10:10 AM
Given the baggage certain words have around here I would never call anybody a commercial renter.

I did point out that you bought points that you don't intend to use for yourself, but intend to rent out year over year in order to make money.

And that is probably the definition many of use to mean a "commercial renter".

JWimberley
01-14-2007, 05:11 PM
Given the baggage certain words have around here I would never call anybody a commercial renter.

I did point out that you bought points that you don't intend to use for yourself, but intend to rent out year over year in order to make money.


Well, if that is the definition then I'll admit it... My name is Joshua and I'm a commercial renter...

However, what the definition ignores is that we didn't have a choice but to purchase more points than we could consistently use year after year. When we bought BWV in '98 we didn't know anything about the resale market or the possibility of purchasing smaller contracts than the 150 minimum that Disney was offering to finance for us. The only way we were able to afford to purchase when we did was to use the money they offered to comp our Disney Institue stay as the majority of the down payment and the only way to get that bonus was to purchase 150 points.

In the years since then we have averaged one trip every 18 months or so and I just can't stomach spending the amount of points required for Friday and Saturday night. In fact the one trip that we made that was longer than our typical 5 night stay we used BCV for Su-Th, moved to the DoubleTree for Fr-Sa and then came back to Disney's OKW for Su-Th.

Well this has strayed from the OP a bit but I just wanted to clarify my position on the term commercial renter. I really don't have a problem with it. Personally I can't think of a time that availability has affected me or my plans. I travel at off peak times and stay at lower demand resorts, if I wanted to stay in a Grand Villa during the peak season then I would wake up at 5am 11-months out and start dialing, just like everybody else that is planning a logisticaly difficult vacation.

So in the end, I will continue to make my vacation plans the way I always have. And when I have points that can't be banked again I will come here to allow somebody else the opportunity to upgrade their vacation and not break their budget. If that makes me a commercial renter then so be it...

Deb & Bill
01-14-2007, 05:21 PM
...However, what the definition ignores is that we didn't have a choice but to purchase more points than we could consistently use year after year. When we bought BWV in '98 we didn't know anything about the resale market or the possibility of purchasing smaller contracts than the 150 minimum that Disney was offering to finance for us. ...

You think 150 points are too much????? Hah, how can we manage to use up 500 points each year?:lmao:

And you are looking to buy more points? That you can't use???

I am confused here. :confused3

Starr W.
01-14-2007, 05:46 PM
You think 150 points are too much????? Hah, how can we manage to use up 500 points each year?:lmao:

And you are looking to buy more points? That you can't use???

I am confused here. :confused3


Guess from looking at life through 2br villa colored glasses, that is a small amount. It's bad that I have started to memorize the point charts. Did you know a 2br at SSR and VB are the same amount for Sun-Thurs during Premier period?

I need to get a life!

kimberh
01-14-2007, 09:45 PM
Well, if that is the definition then I'll admit it... My name is Joshua and I'm a commercial renter...

However, what the definition ignores is that we didn't have a choice but to purchase more points than we could consistently use year after year. When we bought BWV in '98 we didn't know anything about the resale market or the possibility of purchasing smaller contracts than the 150 minimum that Disney was offering to finance for us. The only way we were able to afford to purchase when we did was to use the money they offered to comp our Disney Institue stay as the majority of the down payment and the only way to get that bonus was to purchase 150 points.

In the years since then we have averaged one trip every 18 months or so and I just can't stomach spending the amount of points required for Friday and Saturday night. In fact the one trip that we made that was longer than our typical 5 night stay we used BCV for Su-Th, moved to the DoubleTree for Fr-Sa and then came back to Disney's OKW for Su-Th.

Well this has strayed from the OP a bit but I just wanted to clarify my position on the term commercial renter. I really don't have a problem with it. Personally I can't think of a time that availability has affected me or my plans. I travel at off peak times and stay at lower demand resorts, if I wanted to stay in a Grand Villa during the peak season then I would wake up at 5am 11-months out and start dialing, just like everybody else that is planning a logisticaly difficult vacation.

So in the end, I will continue to make my vacation plans the way I always have. And when I have points that can't be banked again I will come here to allow somebody else the opportunity to upgrade their vacation and not break their budget. If that makes me a commercial renter then so be it...

There is nothing wrong with a vacation like this.

Deb & Bill
01-14-2007, 09:58 PM
There is nothing wrong with a vacation like this.

Unless you continue buying points and still using them in the same manner, giving you more and more points to rent out. That's commercial in my book. But who cares about my book???:lmao:

keys2kingdom
01-14-2007, 11:45 PM
Well, if that is the definition then I'll admit it... My name is Joshua and I'm a commercial renter...

However, what the definition ignores is that we didn't have a choice but to purchase more points than we could consistently use year after year. When we bought BWV in '98 we didn't know anything about the resale market or the possibility of purchasing smaller contracts than the 150 minimum that Disney was offering to finance for us. The only way we were able to afford to purchase when we did was to use the money they offered to comp our Disney Institue stay as the majority of the down payment and the only way to get that bonus was to purchase 150 points.

In the years since then we have averaged one trip every 18 months or so and I just can't stomach spending the amount of points required for Friday and Saturday night.


I'm with Deb, if you have more than you can use NOW why on earth would you be thinking of adding-on?

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1320287&referrerid=&highlight=

kimberh
01-15-2007, 12:11 AM
Unless you continue buying points and still using them in the same manner, giving you more and more points to rent out. That's commercial in my book. But who cares about my book???:lmao:

I missed where he said he was buying more points. I will go and reread what he has wrote.

Anjelica
01-15-2007, 02:09 AM
Yep, the weekend thing subtract from the value as well.

Also, the profile of the DVC renter - the customers we are talking about are by and large, in my impression, not Deluxe resort lovers looking for a price break, but bargain shoppers who will be happy staying at POR or CSR if they aren't getting a great deal. Especially the ones we get here (eBay or other venues may have a different profile). In some cases, they are comparing renting DVC points to the All-Stars. In other words, they aren't saying "I can save $500 on my BW stay by renting points" they are saying "I can get into the BW for about the same cost as POR" or "It will only cost us and extra $250 to upgrade to BC from POP if we rent points - that's a good deal." Yes, the upgrade in location and room is worth something to them, but its not worth as much - IMO - as some people would like to believe.

Very well stated - you hit the nail in the head IMO in terms of the profile of the "typical" DVC renter.

Slakk
01-15-2007, 07:11 AM
Unless you continue buying points and still using them in the same manner, giving you more and more points to rent out. That's commercial in my book. But who cares about my book???:lmao:

I will read it! :rotfl2:

dianeschlicht
01-15-2007, 07:35 AM
Also, the profile of the DVC renter - the customers we are talking about are by and large, in my impression, not Deluxe resort lovers looking for a price break, but bargain shoppers who will be happy staying at POR or CSR if they aren't getting a great deal. Especially the ones we get here (eBay or other venues may have a different profile). In some cases, they are comparing renting DVC points to the All-Stars. In other words, they aren't saying "I can save $500 on my BW stay by renting points" they are saying "I can get into the BW for about the same cost as POR" or "It will only cost us and extra $250 to upgrade to BC from POP if we rent points - that's a good deal." Yes, the upgrade in location and room is worth something to them, but its not worth as much - IMO - as some people would like to believe.
I think this is one of the best discriptions I have ever read! I worry about how renters treat DVC when they rent if they look at it in the same catagory as All Stars.

crisi
01-15-2007, 10:03 AM
I think this is one of the best discriptions I have ever read! I worry about how renters treat DVC when they rent if they look at it in the same catagory as All Stars.


I'm not - people who trash hotel rooms trash expensive ones as well as cheap ones and I think are the minority of people.

3DisneyKids
01-15-2007, 10:11 AM
But who cares about my book???:lmao:

Sounds like a best seller to me! :rotfl2:

3DisneyKids
01-15-2007, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=JWimberley;16407465]Well, if that is the definition then I'll admit it... My name is Joshua and I'm a commercial renter...

Hi Joshua!

I am not a renter of any level (need every one of those precious points for my family :goodvibes ), but I agree that this is a good working definition of a commercial renter.

Others here will disagree, and as you know, defining what "commercial renting" means is a hot topic here as well, it seems, within DVC corporate. Time will tell if they come out with a strict definition.

rantnnravin
01-15-2007, 11:00 AM
DARN that previous posts function:headache: :rotfl2:

simpilotswife
01-15-2007, 11:06 AM
http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200303/ds9-462-rom-and-quark/120x90.jpg
Profit....I need more profit

rinkwide
01-15-2007, 12:50 PM
This thread's got me craving that slightly out-of-touch sense of exclusivity that I haven't felt since the mid '80s. Yep, time to put on my "Member's Only" jacket.

Sammie
01-15-2007, 02:14 PM
This thread's got me craving that slightly out-of-touch sense of exclusivity that I haven't felt since the mid '80s. Yep, time to put on my "Member's Only" jacket.

The DVC one or the JC Penny one. :rotfl2:

rinkwide
01-15-2007, 02:21 PM
The DVC one or the JC Penny one...I sewed a Beah Club Villas patch on the one I got from Mervyn's.

dumbo71
01-15-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm with Deb, if you have more than you can use NOW why on earth would you be thinking of adding-on?

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1320287&referrerid=&highlight=



Wow Keys you are one good detective. How much for you to not review my posts????:rotfl:

Seriously, nice catch. I'm starting to wonder who we are dealing with in this thread.

I support one's right to rent but I have to question using a message board to promote one's "business" or the bottom line.

As stated many times rent for whatever you choose, just don't expect the rest of the people renting to fix prices so you can make a few more bucks.

Dean
01-15-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm with Deb, if you have more than you can use NOW why on earth would you be thinking of adding-on?

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1320287&referrerid=&highlight=I can tell you that I bought another contract when I had more than enough points. I felt like it was a great deal and I wanted home resort priority for BWV. I didn't buy with the intent of renting though it was a side effect of that decision.

kimberh
01-15-2007, 06:59 PM
I can tell you that I bought another contract when I had more than enough points. I felt like it was a great deal and I wanted home resort priority for BWV. I didn't buy with the intent of renting though it was a side effect of that decision.

I have done the same thing. I wanted a Boardwalk view.

keys2kingdom
01-15-2007, 07:42 PM
I can tell you that I bought another contract when I had more than enough points. I felt like it was a great deal and I wanted home resort priority for BWV. I didn't buy with the intent of renting though it was a side effect of that decision.

Given the original tone of this thread I'm guessing it won't be just a side effect. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe JW just wants the OKW home advantage but something in the original request to price-fix plus the same type of thread posted almost four years ago tells me I'm not.

keys2kingdom
01-15-2007, 07:46 PM
Wow Keys you are one good detective. How much for you to not review my posts????:rotfl:




Your post count's too high and I'm too lazy. Besides I only go after people who seem to directly contradict themselves. Like our good friend mushpurple.

Santa
01-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Also, the profile of the DVC renter - the customers we are talking about are by and large, in my impression, not Deluxe resort lovers looking for a price break, but bargain shoppers who will be happy staying at POR or CSR if they aren't getting a great deal. Especially the ones we get here (eBay or other venues may have a different profile). In some cases, they are comparing renting DVC points to the All-Stars. In other words, they aren't saying "I can save $500 on my BW stay by renting points" they are saying "I can get into the BW for about the same cost as POR" or "It will only cost us and extra $250 to upgrade to BC from POP if we rent points - that's a good deal." Yes, the upgrade in location and room is worth something to them, but its not worth as much - IMO - as some people would like to believe.



Very well stated - you hit the nail in the head IMO in terms of the profile of the "typical" DVC renter.


How ignorant of me to want to rent when I could have spent thousands of dollars on a DVC contract.

DVC is not Walmart. You can't just take it back and return it if it's not for you. Not everyone that rents is looking for a bargain basement deal.
I want to experience the DVC resorts and the difference's between DVC & cash before I spend that kind of money.
Do you buy a car without test driving it? No! So why spend as much money or more without a test drive?
Is DVC a better value than paying cash at the same resort? You betcha! Thats why there are over 100K members. Did all those members stay deluxe before buying into DVC? Pretty sure most did not.
I stay where I am comfortable. If I find POR suits my needs more than a DVC resort so be it. I like the availability of renting a DVC reservation and I am sure most of those 100K + members like the advantage of being able to rent thier points if they want or need.

Anjelica
01-16-2007, 10:31 AM
How ignorant of me to want to rent when I could have spent thousands of dollars on a DVC contract.

DVC is not Walmart. You can't just take it back and return it if it's not for you. Not everyone that rents is looking for a bargain basement deal.
I want to experience the DVC resorts and the difference's between DVC & cash before I spend that kind of money.
Do you buy a car without test driving it? No! So why spend as much money or more without a test drive?
Is DVC a better value than paying cash at the same resort? You betcha! Thats why there are over 100K members. Did all those members stay deluxe before buying into DVC? Pretty sure most did not.
I stay where I am comfortable. If I find POR suits my needs more than a DVC resort so be it. I like the availability of renting a DVC reservation and I am sure most of those 100K + members like the advantage of being able to rent thier points if they want or need.

I think implying that those 100K+ members may be "ignorant" because we purchased DVC contracts vs. renting is inaccurate.

There are several folks who have indeed purchased DVC without actually staying in a DVC resort - for example myself. Everytime I have visited Disney I have stayed in Deluxe therefore owning DVC made sense for me.

The "typical" DVC owner tends to be someone who would normally stay at a deluxe Disney hotel and tends to go often to WDW. Therefore it makes logical financial sense to purchase DVC instead of always purchasing rack rates, etc.

As far as what crisi stated and my support of crisi's statement of a "typical" DVC renter - I stand by that. For the most part that is what a "typical" DVC renter is/does. Again note the quotations around "typical" as this won't be the case for every single person or every circumstance.

Santa
01-16-2007, 10:44 AM
I think implying that those 100K+ members may be "ignorant" because we purchased DVC contracts vs. renting is inaccurate.


I said "How ignorant of me". No implications.

DISDVCER
01-16-2007, 11:24 AM
This may have been covered ad nauseum before but here I go anyway :rolleyes1

I just got my statement telling me what the maint. fees are going to be for this year at Boardwalk. I know that they are going to go up every year but I believe this is the 3rd year in a row that they have gone up by at least 10%.

I typically try to rent out at least enough points to cover the cost of my fees each year. With this increase I'm wondering if other members that rent their points would consider a rate change to reflect our higher costs.

Moving from the standard $10 a point to $11 or $12 per point isn't going to ruin our chances of renting (we are still well below what Disney is getting). Most of my renters are looking for 45-75 points. The new pricing would cost them an extra $100 on average. It isn't going to break them but will definately offset our extra expense for a while longer.

One thing that it might help with is thinning the herd so to speak. In my last round of point offerings I must have gotten 20 PM's the first day of potential buyers. I was only able to help 3 of them before I ran out of points but I now believe that if I had asked $12 per point I would have gotten a third of the responses and still rented all of the points, especially if I wasn't being undercut by other owners.

Ok, I'll relinquish the soapbox... Don't worry, I'm a firefighter so feel free to flame on, I can take it :firefight

Tell me what you guys think...

Joshua

---------------------------------

I edited the title to reflect a natural progression in what this topic has become about...

The standard rate per point should be no less than $25 per point with annual rate increases inline with the annual rate increases of the individual resorts. :thumbsup2

crisi
01-16-2007, 12:02 PM
How ignorant of me to want to rent when I could have spent thousands of dollars on a DVC contract.

DVC is not Walmart. You can't just take it back and return it if it's not for you. Not everyone that rents is looking for a bargain basement deal.
I want to experience the DVC resorts and the difference's between DVC & cash before I spend that kind of money.
Do you buy a car without test driving it? No! So why spend as much money or more without a test drive?
Is DVC a better value than paying cash at the same resort? You betcha! Thats why there are over 100K members. Did all those members stay deluxe before buying into DVC? Pretty sure most did not.
I stay where I am comfortable. If I find POR suits my needs more than a DVC resort so be it. I like the availability of renting a DVC reservation and I am sure most of those 100K + members like the advantage of being able to rent thier points if they want or need.

I'm not sure I get your point - or how it refers to my comment. I'm saying that they typical profile of renters, IMO and from what I've seen, is that they aren't Deluxe resort guests looking to save a little money, but are mostly moderate resort guests looking to upgrade without spending more money. That impacts the price DVC members can get for their points. I'm not making any comments at all on who purchases DVC. Nor am I making any judgement on either people who rent points from members, nor members who rent points.

There are lots of other profiles as well - and some people no doubt are Deluxe resort lovers looking to save a little cash (and, from what has been posted here, these are the people most likely to be disappointed when they discover the the timeshare side of the house is run a little differently). Some people are trying before buying. Some people are looking for a way to put a larger family in a room without busting the bank. But, from watching the rent/trade board the little bit I do, watching what is posted here, and watching comments on the resort board, family board, and budget board - I think that I'm right on the typical profile.

The profile is a factor is what the market will bear for price - which is what this thread is about. If DVC points were overwhelmingly rented by people willing to pay $300 plus tax a night for a BC studio, you'd be able to charge more than if they are overwhelmingly rented by people who are willing to pay $150 a night at CBR or if you were looking at people who were overwhelmingly looking at rooms in the $100 a night range. If they were primarily rented by "try before you buy" types - we'd have a huge supply and probably not much demand and the price would be fairly low.

dianeschlicht
01-16-2007, 12:15 PM
I'm not sure I get your point - or how it refers to my comment. I'm saying that they typical profile of renters, IMO and from what I've seen, is that they aren't Deluxe resort guests looking to save a little money, but are mostly moderate resort guests looking to upgrade without spending more money. That impacts the price DVC members can get for their points. I'm not making any comments at all on who purchases DVC. Nor am I making any judgement on either people who rent points from members, nor members who rent points.

There are lots of other profiles as well - and some people no doubt are Deluxe resort lovers looking to save a little cash (and, from what has been posted here, these are the people most likely to be disappointed when they discover the the timeshare side of the house is run a little differently). Some people are trying before buying. Some people are looking for a way to put a larger family in a room without busting the bank. But, from watching the rent/trade board the little bit I do, watching what is posted here, and watching comments on the resort board, family board, and budget board - I think that I'm right on the typical profile.

The profile is a factor is what the market will bear for price - which is what this thread is about. If DVC points were overwhelmingly rented by people willing to pay $300 plus tax a night for a BC studio, you'd be able to charge more than if they are overwhelmingly rented by people who are willing to pay $150 a night at CBR or if you were looking at people who were overwhelmingly looking at rooms in the $100 a night range. If they were primarily rented by "try before you buy" types - we'd have a huge supply and probably not much demand and the price would be fairly low.

Very well said!

Deb & Bill
01-16-2007, 01:14 PM
Is DVC a better value than paying cash at the same resort? You betcha! Thats why there are over 100K members. Did all those members stay deluxe before buying into DVC? Pretty sure most did not.
I stay where I am comfortable. If I find POR suits my needs more than a DVC resort so be it. I like the availability of renting a DVC reservation and I am sure most of those 100K + members like the advantage of being able to rent thier points if they want or need.

So, Santa, are you a member??? Where did you get your data that most members did not stay in deluxe before they purchased? You say that you stay where you are most comfortable. My take on the issue is that most members stay because they like the comfort AND deluxe accomodations of DVC. There are a lot of members like us who prefer to stay in a one bedroom or larger because the studio is too much like a hotel room. Why pay the cash I'm paying to just stay in a hotel room?

If you talk to most DVC members, I don't think they are members because of the value, but because of the deluxe accomodations. Most of us look at the prepaid vacation, not at the savings. I'm not saving anything at all, but in actuality spending a bunch more.

And I know of plenty of members who have no plans ever to rent out their reservations. When we bought it was stressed that DVC is for family vacations and not to be used as an investment. I think some DVC guides are pushing the "rental opportunities" too much and not stressing the family vacation aspect. Of course, the price has gone up a lot since we bought in.

And I agree with Crisi that the average person posting on the R/T Board to get a reservation is not the typical DVC member, but a Value or Mod traveler who has found they can get the deluxe for just a little cash. Otherwise, why would they only rent Sun-Thur? Why would they offer as little as $8 a point? Why do they bring up that they can get the All Stars for $X and would like to get the DVC for the same or less? They want a 2 bedroom for the price of two values. When you tell them what it is going to cost, they back off.

rinkwide
01-16-2007, 01:19 PM
...moderate resort guests looking to upgrade...

...Deluxe resort lovers looking to save a little cash...Why do we need to label people as either Moderate or Deluxe? It's actually quite demeaning if you think about it. Look, each one of us shares the common bond - a profound love for The Mouse. Down deep, Walt Disney World Resort guests really are all the same (except those filthy All-Stars people).

crisi
01-16-2007, 02:46 PM
Why do we need to label people as either Moderate or Deluxe? It's actually quite demeaning if you think about it. Look, each one of us shares the common bond - a profound love for The Mouse. Down deep, Walt Disney World Resort guests really are all the same (except those filthy All-Stars people).

Is it demeaning? Gee, I never thought of it as demeaning. I figured what we were doing was classing resorts based on affordability - and likewise their guests on what their budget permits. I drive a Jetta. I don't find it demeaning that I don't drive an Audi - I'd love to, but it isn't in my budget.

I suppose we could class all WDW guests as being able to stay in suites, but it wouldn't change the reality that some of us are on budgets when we vacation - and some of those budgets permit spending more or less on accomodations.

aclov
01-16-2007, 04:03 PM
I purchased sight unseen so had never stayed at a DVC resort. I purchased because of the accomodations and not to have to worry about rising hotel room prices. Like someone else called it, for me it's a "pre-paid vacation". I have rented before but only because I wasn't planning on using my points, not to make a business out of it.

twinme
01-16-2007, 11:36 PM
I don't often reply to post, but having been a "renter" this particulat post bothers me....somehow in my idealism I imagined renting points actually helping out the "owner" and me. Guess this "cow" has been lucky to fing wonderful owners....I hadn't fully realized the "business" side of the timeshare owner. Funny, I thought it was for fun and vacation.

twinme
01-17-2007, 12:01 AM
Thought I sounded a bit harsh on my reply....sorry. The cost of going to Disney is getting HIGH, I do thank you "owners" for giving me the chance to experience it.

PinkTink63
01-17-2007, 12:59 AM
Thought I sounded a bit harsh on my reply....sorry. The cost of going to Disney is getting HIGH, I do thank you "owners" for giving me the chance to experience it.

We always stayed at moderates with a code until I found out about DVC. I had been hearing about DVC for years but really never checked into it, until the year we rented from owners! Now we are owners!:thumbsup2 So thank goodness for us that someone needed to rent out their points on year!:rotfl:

crisi
01-17-2007, 08:30 AM
I don't often reply to post, but having been a "renter" this particulat post bothers me....somehow in my idealism I imagined renting points actually helping out the "owner" and me. Guess this "cow" has been lucky to fing wonderful owners....I hadn't fully realized the "business" side of the timeshare owner. Funny, I thought it was for fun and vacation.

There are some owners who are renting because they can't make use of their own points - they might rent out their points one year out of every ten. Maybe they want to go to Hawaii and can't find a DVC trade they like. Maybe they've fallen on hard times and can't afford airfare and tickets this year.

Then there are owners who own as a business to rent points.

Sometimes, these two motivations conflict - particularly when you have owners whose buy in price was less than $60 and have a much smaller cost basis for their points - and very little motivation to do much more than cover dues or the cost of a cruise a point competing with people who bought recently near $100 a point and bought as a business.

However, if you are simply renting points because you can't use yours this year - most would still rather rent 200 points for $12 than for $10 - that's an extra $400 in my pocket. Would you give $400 to a stranger out of the goodness of your heart - so they can have a fun vacation? As an owner I'd want that $400 in my pocket so I can have fun on my vacation. If I'm renting due to hard times, I definately want that $400. Since most people who rent say $12 is easily doable, non members aren't doing anyone any favors renting non-distressed points for $10. Members who choose to rent for $10 are doing you a great favor, or they don't understand the value of their own points, or the extra $1-2 a point is meaningless money to them.

Now, this applies to non-distressed points. If I have points that are about to expire, and I can get $7 for them last minute, you are doing me a huge favor - taking them off my hands and covering dues for them. But distressed points are the exception in the point rental market.

Is this a business? - well, money is changing hands. Ever have a garage sale? Do you let your best things go for half their marked price the first morning of the garage sale to do strangers a favor? People generally act to maximize their own utility.

I don't believe in price fixing - if someone wants to rent you their points for $6 - more power to them. And I don't rent my own points - we have enough for ourselves right now and a list of friends we'd be happy to give our points to if we can't use them. My interest is more academic - this is a facinating market and facinating economics.

salmoneous
01-17-2007, 09:54 AM
Since most people who rent say $12 is easily doable, non members aren't doing anyone any favors renting non-distressed points for $10. There is a difference between doable and "easily doable". I believe people can get $12 (or more!) for their points, but it won't be as easy as getting $10 or $11.

There will always be lots of people renting <100 points who would rather have an easier renting experience than a few extra bucks in their pocket. And other people willing to put in the effort to get every dime they can. Ain't the free market great?

crisi
01-17-2007, 10:30 AM
There is a difference between doable and "easily doable". I believe people can get $12 (or more!) for their points, but it won't be as easy as getting $10 or $11.

There will always be lots of people renting <100 points who would rather have an easier renting experience than a few extra bucks in their pocket. And other people willing to put in the effort to get every dime they can. Ain't the free market great?

Yep, which is why I'm amused at the lobbying for higher prices. You can't control what other people's points rent for, and with different motivations, there will always be someone willing to go "below market" for the ease of a quick rental (or maybe even just to see if they can't cause the profiteers a little consternation). It does seem that over the past year or so that the $10 standard has been moving towards and $11 or $12 standard. Which makes sense - as twinme said, Disney is getting more expensive.

On the other hand, the expectation that there is a great deal to be had on the part of renters doesn't seem productive to me either - and I notice a lot of people who want to rent points below market who don't seem get a bite on their offers. Perhaps they are being flooded with PMs though.

UConnJack
01-17-2007, 12:50 PM
I think implying that those 100K+ members may be "ignorant" because we purchased DVC contracts vs. renting is inaccurate.

There are several folks who have indeed purchased DVC without actually staying in a DVC resort - for example myself. Everytime I have visited Disney I have stayed in Deluxe therefore owning DVC made sense for me.

The "typical" DVC owner tends to be someone who would normally stay at a deluxe Disney hotel and tends to go often to WDW. Therefore it makes logical financial sense to purchase DVC instead of always purchasing rack rates, etc.

As far as what crisi stated and my support of crisi's statement of a "typical" DVC renter - I stand by that. For the most part that is what a "typical" DVC renter is/does. Again note the quotations around "typical" as this won't be the case for every single person or every circumstance.

You know, while I am more inclined to agree with the profile of a DVC renter, I am less convinced of your assessment of a "typical" DVC owner. I am one of those moderate/value resort guests who saw DVC ownership as an economical upgrade.

I've never done polls before and am not sure how, but I would be interested if someone else put out some polls out to owners and renters to actually see what "typical" actually is (at least within the DIS realm), rather than pulling assumptions out of our ****.

UConnJack
01-17-2007, 01:16 PM
The biggest reason for renting out points for me is to pay cash for non-DVC vacations I want to take. It's well known here that the real value of DVC is staying at the DVC resorts, and while trading out is convenient and sometimes equitable depending on the trade, it is usually better financially to rent your "prepaid vacation" points and use cash for your non-DVC vacations. Heck, since I go to HHI for a week around New Years every year, I don't even use points for that anymore. It's much cheaper to rent points and use the cash to reserve with a DVC cash discount that time of year (and using the difference toward airfare!) Is this "commercial” renting if I do it every year for HHI, and every few years for a non-DVC vacation? Maybe, if you take "commercial" in the strict sense of the word, but I certainly hope this is not the kind of renting that DVC and other owners find offensive. Not that I would stop anyway........

Basically, if an owner buys DVC with the primary intention of Disney vacations, but (even if somewhat frequently) rents out points for non-DVC vacations, rents because they can't use them that year, or rents some to cover dues, I have no burn. Even spec renting of prime times doesn't bother me too much in this context. They are your points, you should have a right to maximize their value.

However, those who bought DVC with the primary intention of renting out for profit, with no or limited use by themselves, these are what I consider "commercial renters" and support DVC's "effort" to curb.

Anjelica
01-17-2007, 02:12 PM
You know, while I am more inclined to agree with the profile of a DVC renter, I am less convinced of your assessment of a "typical" DVC owner. I am one of those moderate/value resort guests who saw DVC ownership as an economical upgrade.

I've never done polls before and am not sure how, but I would be interested if someone else put out some polls out to owners and renters to actually see what "typical" actually is (at least within the DIS realm), rather than pulling assumptions out of our ****.

Although I am confused by your inclination to agree with the profile of a DVC renter that crisi presented, although there are no polls or scientific data to back up that statement, but disagree with my assessment of a "typical" DVC owner because of a lack of polls or scientific data.

My description of what a "typical" DVC owner could very well be 100% wrong and yes you don't have to agree at all (obviously not). My assessment is based upon several years of being on this board and in talking with many DVC owners. We all had a common thread which met the "typical" DVC owner.

In terms of your particular profile/situation I am also confused as you stated you were a regular user of value/moderate who bought into DVC as an economical upgrade to deluxe (parapharsing there). However, in your next posting you state that you rent out your points because its cheaper to pay cash say at HHI. In that case how was purchasing DVC an economical upgrade other than renting out the points?

crisi
01-17-2007, 02:53 PM
You know, while I am more inclined to agree with the profile of a DVC renter, I am less convinced of your assessment of a "typical" DVC owner. I am one of those moderate/value resort guests who saw DVC ownership as an economical upgrade.

I've never done polls before and am not sure how, but I would be interested if someone else put out some polls out to owners and renters to actually see what "typical" actually is (at least within the DIS realm), rather than pulling assumptions out of our ****.


I'd say that DVC owners are split between people who were staying in Deluxes that want to save money, people who were staying in Moderates that saw an economical upgrade, people who wanted a condo like accomodations (yeah! Kids in another room!) and the completely emotional "own Disney" or even more emotional "purchase during vacation high." And yes, people who purchased because they felt they could make a profit renting points. Most people begin looking into DVC to save money, but most owners don't save money - most of us are upgrading in some fashion or another - either the resort or the room type or the frequency of our trips. In other words, its not clear to me at all that there is a typical profile that motivates buy in, nor is is clear to me that years after the fact most owners would be able to properly identify their own motives (i.e. poll your heart out, I wouldn't trust the answers, nor would this particular self selecting sample mean much). Had you asked me when I was signing on the dotted line, I'd have said "save money." Now, years later, its "affordably treat family and friends" and "have kids sleep in a different room." I'd even venture to guess that the 'typical' motivation probably has variation on which resort you choose as home - people buying BCV currently at $100 a point on the resale market probably have a very different profile than someone who purchased OKW ten years ago.

UConnJack
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
Although I am confused by your inclination to agree with the profile of a DVC renter that crisi presented, although there are no polls or scientific data to back up that statement, but disagree with my assessment of a "typical" DVC owner because of a lack of polls or scientific data.?

Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I wasn't trying to imply MY assessment is correct over yours, just that those are my impressions of DVC owners and renters in my experience. I don't know who's right, I'm just suggesting someone put a poll out there to find out the trend rather than us all guessing and arguing.

In terms of your particular profile/situation I am also confused as you stated you were a regular user of value/moderate who bought into DVC as an economical upgrade to deluxe (parapharsing there). However, in your next posting you state that you rent out your points because its cheaper to pay cash say at HHI. In that case how was purchasing DVC an economical upgrade other than renting out the points?

It wasn't, but I didn't buy into DVC primarily for HH, it was primarily for WDW. After staying a couple times at HH, I found I really enjoy it, but since I can get cheaper cash reservations at the time I usually go, I don't waste my points for it. That's fits right into my point, it's NOT economical to stay at HH with DVC points at the time of year I usually go, that's why I rent because it takes less points for the cash I need to stay there (or about the same if I want to fly and pay for airfare too). Plus if I didn't own DVC, I wouldn't get the cash discount or access to that block of rooms.

UConnJack
01-17-2007, 03:22 PM
I'd say that DVC owners are split between people who were staying in Deluxes that want to save money, people who were staying in Moderates that saw an economical upgrade, people who wanted a condo like accomodations (yeah! Kids in another room!) and the completely emotional "own Disney" or even more emotional "purchase during vacation high." And yes, people who purchased because they felt they could make a profit renting points. Most people begin looking into DVC to save money, but most owners don't save money - most of us are upgrading in some fashion or another - either the resort or the room type or the frequency of our trips. In other words, its not clear to me at all that there is a typical profile that motivates buy in, nor is is clear to me that years after the fact most owners would be able to properly identify their own motives (i.e. poll your heart out, I wouldn't trust the answers, nor would this particular self selecting sample mean much). Had you asked me when I was signing on the dotted line, I'd have said "save money." Now, years later, its "affordably treat family and friends" and "have kids sleep in a different room." I'd even venture to guess that the 'typical' motivation probably has variation on which resort you choose as home - people buying BCV currently at $100 a point on the resale market probably have a very different profile than someone who purchased OKW ten years ago.

All good points, but a poll would be no less acurrate than the guesses being thrown around. Considering some of the silly polls that are put out there, I think this would be as informative (or at least just entertaining) as any.

waltfan1957
01-17-2007, 04:01 PM
To recieve a higher price on the DIS you must book a desired week, and wait till you are close to the reservation (60 days out) to post it. At that time you can access how must to ask for the reservation b/c you can determine what CRO it getting for a similiar reservation at that timeframe.

great idea all you have to do is book all the best weeks so you can rent your points for maximum $, i dont think that was the intention of the DVC but then again the greedy will always only think of themselves.

Slakk
01-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Why do we need to label people as either Moderate or Deluxe? It's actually quite demeaning if you think about it. Look, each one of us shares the common bond - a profound love for The Mouse. Down deep, Walt Disney World Resort guests really are all the same (except those filthy All-Stars people).

Don't forget us dirtbag SSRers...this one snatched a 2BR VWL room ressie with their dirtbag points from an unsuspecting and more deserving BCV.BWV/VWL owner starting TOMORROW!!!!

I had the audacity to do this at the 5 month mark...I should be ashamed - but I am not :yay:

mikron
01-17-2007, 07:39 PM
I feel the people renting get a good deal compared to the rates disney charges. I rent when I can't use my points or to help with the dues. I think a point price of $12.00 per point would not be unfair to renters. At $12.00 per point there is still a great savings to the renter. If a DVC member contacts me and needs points to complete a trip I will discount my price per point. I won't do transfers, I will book some of there trip and link the reservations. Before you get up tight about the $12.00 price, check any vacation period with disneys prices.

keys2kingdom
01-17-2007, 09:02 PM
I think a point price of $12.00 per point would not be unfair to renters. At $12.00 per point there is still a great savings to the renter.

OK, then go ahead and charge that price. That's the great thing, everyone is free to do exactly as they like.

Johnnie Fedora
01-17-2007, 11:44 PM
That's interesting - does that put you at risk of getting "stuck" with the reservation or needing to fire sale it? It sounds like you have had good luck with that strategy.


I have had good luck with this strategy, especially during sell out times at WDW resorts. I have not had to fire sale any points b/c I have been able to plan my rentals just like I plan my personal use bookings. I believe 50% off WDW rates (including taxes) is the rate to pursue in rentals. I like selling reservations instead of points, unless I rent the points out before the 11-month window. :goodvibes

Johnnie Fedora
01-18-2007, 12:14 AM
great idea all you have to do is book all the best weeks so you can rent your points for maximum $, i dont think that was the intention of the DVC but then again the greedy will always only think of themselves.

Exactly! I use the same stratagy that the greedy mouse does. Don't offer discounts during the busy seasons! :earsboy:

DISDVCER
01-18-2007, 11:22 AM
Exactly! I use the same stratagy that the greedy mouse does. Don't offer discounts during the busy seasons! :earsboy:

But when we do that we are labeled a "Commercial renter" instead of the correct assesment of "Professional renter" and lower than a wet dirtbag by the vast majority here. Then strung up by our Mickey ears to dry out.

WeddingPavilion
01-18-2007, 11:29 AM
I feel the people renting get a good deal compared to the rates disney charges. I rent when I can't use my points or to help with the dues. I think a point price of $12.00 per point would not be unfair to renters. At $12.00 per point there is still a great savings to the renter. If a DVC member contacts me and needs points to complete a trip I will discount my price per point. I won't do transfers, I will book some of there trip and link the reservations. Before you get up tight about the $12.00 price, check any vacation period with disneys prices.
But then you have some renters at the other end of the spectrum saying they "only want to pay $9-$10/pt".

Deb & Bill
01-18-2007, 12:53 PM
But then you have some renters at the other end of the spectrum saying they "only want to pay $9-$10/pt".

No, you have MANY renters who say they only want to apy $9-10/pt. And a good bunch who want them for $8 a point.

Sammie
01-18-2007, 12:58 PM
But when we do that we are labeled a "Commercial renter" instead of the correct assesment of "Professional renter" and lower than a wet dirtbag by the vast majority here. Then strung up by our Mickey ears to dry out.

I would imagine whether one is called commercial or professional does not matter to most. Either way it is the same. Those that don't care,don't and those against, think the same of professional or commercial.

Dean
01-18-2007, 02:07 PM
I would imagine whether one is called commercial or professional does not matter to most. Either way it is the same. Those that don't care,don't and those against, think the same of professional or commercial.No doubt that's accurate. I wouldn't worry about what others think.

But then you have some renters at the other end of the spectrum saying they "only want to pay $9-$10/pt".They can want all they want and if they want to hold out for that price that's up to them but I hope they don't find takers.

keys2kingdom
01-18-2007, 02:53 PM
I would imagine whether one is called commercial or professional does not matter to most. Either way it is the same. Those that don't care,don't and those against, think the same of professional or commercial.

Exactly, the label doesn't matter. The activity is the same.

rinkwide
01-18-2007, 06:21 PM
...the greedy will always only think of themselves.Sometimes we think about others; Usually it's when we're laughing at the poor suckers who aren't as resourceful.

kimberh
01-20-2007, 01:25 AM
But then you have some renters at the other end of the spectrum saying they "only want to pay $9-$10/pt".

You hold out for your price, it's your reservation, you are or me are in control, not the person trying to rent the reservation from us.

bongo59
01-20-2007, 01:34 AM
we have been getting 14 a point from our stable of renters now going on close to 27 months.............but all of or renters have used us at least 4 times.............they are paying up for the service and reliability they get.

Deb & Bill
01-20-2007, 09:22 AM
we have been getting 14 a point from our stable of renters now going on close to 27 months.............but all of or renters have used us at least 4 times.............they are paying up for the service and reliability they get.

Sounds commercial to me.......;)

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 11:08 AM
we have been getting 14 a point from our stable of renters now going on close to 27 months.............but all of or renters have used us at least 4 times.............they are paying up for the service and reliability they get.



Really it doesn't matter who wants to call renters commercial or not. I've been called commercial for my 24 rentals I have had over the years. So be it.

My question for Bongo59 would be, Have you received any notification from DVC about these activities?

Also, when I stated that I had received an average return of $14 per point on my rentals many scoffed. Congratulations on your resourceful use of your points.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Exactly! I use the same stratagy that the greedy mouse does. Don't offer discounts during the busy seasons! :earsboy:



Exactly is right. Really besides the sarcasim, you have touched on something here. If DVC can rent points so can the membership and legally I might add.

I got sucked in recently with this "commercial" stuff. I now stand corrected. There is no such thing as commercial in my eyes any longer. Only those who know how to maximize profits. I'm not going to "string someone up" for using their membership to it's fullest. I was in fact doing that same thing so how can I throw stones?

Many who oppose renting do so for the following reasons: 1) they don't have the resources to obtain enough points to rent 2) They didn't think of it first 3) since they don't/can't rent they would like to dictate to others what they can/can't do with their membership.


Renting is a nice option to have and really enhances our membership. I hope it doesn't go away. You never know when you might be contacting Bongo59 for some points or a hard to get ressie.

waltfan1957
01-20-2007, 11:26 AM
renting is a nice option to have and really enhances our membership. I hope it doesn't go away. You never know when you might be contacting Bongo59 for some points or a hard to get ressie.

more so if you commercial/proffessional renters book up all the prime weeks

waltfan1957
01-20-2007, 11:30 AM
Sometimes we think about others; Usually it's when we're laughing at the poor suckers who aren't as resourceful.

whats resourceful about booking rooms you have no intention of using for anything other than personal gain

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 01:20 PM
whats resourceful about booking rooms you have no intention of using for anything other than personal gain



Personal gain is the goal of many is it not? Don't we try to further our careers, increase the paycheck or gain a higher social standing? I know I do.

Those pre-booked weeks become a golden ticket over on Ebay. As long as those weeks are booked with the owners points then what gives waltfan1957 or anyone else the right to question or judge?

The only judge here is DVC. Obviously they don't think Bongo59 is commercial or he/she wouldn't be renting anymore.

Instead of bashing them we could all learn a little something from guys like Bongo59 and others. I actaully posted in another thread how I made out in my years of ownership from a financial standpoint. I'll check what thread it was and give you the thread to read. I'm sure others have done much better than I have.

Edit: Here it is for those interested. It is on this board thread titled "join DVC or invest buy in cost". Go to page 4 post #50.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 01:44 PM
Many who oppose renting do so for the following reasons: 1) they don't have the resources to obtain enough points to rent 2) They didn't think of it first 3) since they don't/can't rent they would like to dictate to others what they can/can't do with their membership.

Is that fact or opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell. :lmao:

Even if it's opinion, what is it based on? Did you poll those that don't rent to find out why they don't rent, or did you just make assumptions based on your opinion.

We don't rent because we don't want to. We have plenty of points to rent, I mean gee how many does one have to have. 150 points is the minimum that would can purchase and you can book a week at OKW in a studio during any season of the year for less than that, so I would say "every" member has enough points to rent. You don't have to be some big tycoon to do so.

As to thinking of it first, how would that affect anything. :confused3

As to your third point I imagine most remembers that are against commercial/professional renting feel it violates the POS in using the property for commercial gain.

As to why some on this forum don't care for it, probably has a lot to do with the "In Your Face" attitude of those that do. And Yea that is my opinion.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Is that fact or opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell. :lmao:

Even if it's opinion, what is it based on? Did you poll those that don't rent to find out why they don't rent, or did you just make assumptions based on your opinion.

We don't rent because we don't want to. We have plenty of points to rent, I mean gee how many does one have to have. 150 points is the minimum that would can purchase and you can book a week at OKW in a studio during any season of the year for less than that, so I would say "every" member has enough points to rent. You don't have to be some big tycoon to do so.

As to thinking of it first, how would that affect anything. :confused3

As to your third point I imagine most remembers that are against commercial/professional renting feel it violates the POS in using the property for commercial gain.

As to why some on this forum don't care for it, probably has a lot to do with the "In Your Face" attitude of those that do. And Yea that is my opinion.



Fair enough. Sure it my opinion but I really have a sneaky suspicion it isn't so far off. Sure anyone could rent but that would mean foregoing their own trips. It is when you have enough for both that renting truly becomes attractive.

How is it an "In your face attitiude"? If you go over to rent/trade board I've never even heard of those guys. They do not post here for the most part, they simply rent. They aren't shoving it in anyone's face. Those that do choose to speak out are the minority for sure. Maybe we need to be a little more vocal to dampen the flames from the non-renters or those that feel ALL renting is wrong. I could name names off the top of my head who adamently oppose renting. I won't do that. I don't feel you are one of those either.

If those opposed to renting can voice that then those in favor can certainly do that as well. As far as the POS, renting is clearly allowed and until DVC chooses to enforce and define "commercial" this is really debating for nothing. Renting will always exist, many should just get used to that fact or try to change it. Email DVC with complaints for those that oppose. Bashing the renters is unproductive at the least.

Sammie, this isn't directed at you. You are a reasonable guy and poster. This is really aimed at those who feel they can choose what others can do with their membership.

Deb & Bill
01-20-2007, 02:02 PM
...Many who oppose renting do so for the following reasons: 1) they don't have the resources to obtain enough points to rent 2) They didn't think of it first 3) since they don't/can't rent they would like to dictate to others what they can/can't do with their membership.

Renting is a nice option to have and really enhances our membership. I hope it doesn't go away. You never know when you might be contacting Bongo59 for some points or a hard to get ressie.

Is that fact or opinion, sometimes it is hard to tell.

Even if it's opinion, what is it based on? Did you poll those that don't rent to find out why they don't rent, or did you just make assumptions based on your opinion.

We don't rent because we don't want to. We have plenty of points to rent, I mean gee how many does one have to have. 150 points is the minimum that would can purchase and you can book a week at OKW in a studio during any season of the year for less than that, so I would say "every" member has enough points to rent. You don't have to be some big tycoon to do so.

As to thinking of it first, how would that affect anything.

As to your third point I imagine most members that are against commercial/professional renting feel it violates the POS in using the property for commercial gain.

As to why some on this forum don't care for it, probably has a lot to do with the "In Your Face" attitude of those that do. And Yea that is my opinion.
Today 12:20 PM


Sammie, I am with you on this. And to me, your response to #3 is the most important. Here is what I read "Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by an prospective purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit."

So we use our 500 points every year ourselves (unless we bring family or friends with us as our guests).

Dean
01-20-2007, 02:11 PM
Sammie, I am with you on this. And to me, your response to #3 is the most important. Here is what I read "Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by an prospective purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit."

So we use our 500 points every year ourselves (unless we bring family or friends with us as our guests).That quote is required by FL law to be included and is a reference to protect DVC from someone saying that DVC sold them by stating "you can buy, rent and make money". It has NOTHING to do with any prohibition of renting. The POS specifically states you can rent.

I will say that I've seen a lot more in your face from those that oppose renting than from those who feel it is OK. But since they seem to be in the majority here I guess it's OK to be rude.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 02:16 PM
Sure anyone could rent but that would mean foregoing their own trips. It is when you have enough for both that renting truly becomes attractive.

This to me is an accurate description of the difference in renting within the POS and it becoming commercial/professional. If I can't use my points in a year for personal reasons and/or I need to come up with some quick cash for an emergency situation, or I have a friend who wants to go and I want to help them out with this one time trip and I won't go, then I think that is the renting DVC is describing in the POS. This would not be something I do on a regular basis. To me that is what allowed renting is about. I am not against renting with the guidelines of POS, I am against renting commercially.

When one has enough points to use for personal use and a business on the side, then it becomes commercial. When one establishes a pattern of rental activity for commercial gain, then that is when it not within the POS.

Obviously DVC also feels that some have stepped over the line of what is allowed and what is commercial, or they would have never gotten involved. That is enough for me to feel what is being done is not in the best interest of the membership. I am a rule follower and whether I can get away with something has no affect on me. I do what is right.

I don't support going over the occupany levels of DVC units and I don't support smoking in a NS unit, I don't support commercial renting. I don't pick and choose my rights and wrongs, just because one can make me some extra cash.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 02:26 PM
I will say that I've seen a lot more in your face from those that oppose renting than from those who feel it is OK. But since they seem to be in the majority here I guess it's OK to be rude.

I agree that neither side needs to be rude. I can state my opinions, on this and refer to those that choose to commercial rent for what they are, commercial renters. However when some label those that don't rent as suckers, then yes I consider that name calling.

I would not consider any of your opinions of renting, to be rude or in your face. You have your opinion, I have mine. Some however, and to be fair, on both sides seem to think they must lable and call names and make fun.

Truly my stance on this is not personal against any one person. DVC thinks commercial renting is wrong and I will stand with them.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 02:42 PM
Truly my stance on this is not personal against any one person. DVC thinks commercial renting is wrong and I will stand with them.



With this we agree. Now I'd like to see DVC define commercial or really enforce something. I would also not do something that is cleary against defined DVC rules, but that is just me I guess.

I was encouraged to rent by my guide actually. He told me many of his friends rent as well. When the time came that renting started to be of concern to DVC I made the decision to sell. Wasn't the only reason but there has got to be a line. If and when DVC defines this further or takes action to stop this I'd hope most would simply stop and find other avenues to make money.

I also agree name calling is not acceptable. Those that choose to go that route should simply not be allowed to post or have the post removed.

Dean
01-20-2007, 02:42 PM
This to me is an accurate description of the difference in renting within the POS and it becoming commercial/professional. If I can't use my points in a year for personal reasons and/or I need to come up with some quick cash for an emergency situation, or I have a friend who wants to go and I want to help them out with this one time trip and I won't go, then I think that is the renting DVC is describing in the POS. This would not be something I do on a regular basis. To me that is what allowed renting is about. I am not against renting with the guidelines of POS, I am against renting commercially.

When one has enough points to use for personal use and a business on the side, then it becomes commercial. When one establishes a pattern of rental activity for commercial gain, then that is when it not within the POS.

Obviously DVC also feels that some have stepped over the line of what is allowed and what is commercial, or they would have never gotten involved. That is enough for me to feel what is being done is not in the best interest of the membership. I am a rule follower and whether I can get away with something has no affect on me. I do what is right.

I don't support going over the occupany levels of DVC units and I don't support smoking in a NS unit, I don't support commercial renting. I don't pick and choose my rights and wrongs, just because one can make me some extra cash.Sammie, you are welcome to hold that opinion but it is not supported in FL law or in the POS. And there is no published definition of Commercial Renting. The closest thing to it as stated in the POS is the limit of 2000 per resort and 5000 per person "To encourage purchase for personal use".

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 03:01 PM
That quote is required by FL law to be included and is a reference to protect DVC from someone saying that DVC sold them by stating "you can buy, rent and make money". It has NOTHING to do with any prohibition of renting. The POS specifically states you can rent.

I will say that I've seen a lot more in your face from those that oppose renting than from those who feel it is OK. But since they seem to be in the majority here I guess it's OK to be rude.


Well Dean beat me to it. Thanks for posting that Dean becuase many get that confused.

waltfan1957
01-20-2007, 03:32 PM
Personal gain is the goal of many is it not? Don't we try to further our careers, increase the paycheck or gain a higher social standing? I know I do.

Those pre-booked weeks become a golden ticket over on Ebay. As long as those weeks are booked with the owners points then what gives waltfan1957 or anyone else the right to question or judge?

The only judge here is DVC. Obviously they don't think Bongo59 is commercial or he/she wouldn't be renting anymore.

Instead of bashing them we could all learn a little something from guys like Bongo59 and others. I actaully posted in another thread how I made out in my years of ownership from a financial standpoint. I'll check what thread it was and give you the thread to read. I'm sure others have done much better than I have.

Edit: Here it is for those interested. It is on this board thread titled "join DVC or invest buy in cost". Go to page 4 post #50.

i was pointing out the fact that when commercial renters book all the prime weeks they do so to the detriment of all the people who bought in to the DVC which is the Disney Vacation Club with the prime objective of useing it for vacations not rental after all its not the DRS Disney Rental Society and i agree with Sammie if Disney is concerned with this, that it is having an effect on people who wish to use there points to stay and its quotes like the golden ticket on e-bay that are probably causing more anger than most

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 03:57 PM
i was pointing out the fact that when commercial renters book all the prime weeks they do so to the detriment of all the people who bought in to the DVC which is the Disney Vacation Club with the prime objective of useing it for vacations not rental after all its not the DRS Disney Rental Society and i agree with Sammie if Disney is concerned with this, that it is having an effect on people who wish to use there points to stay and its quotes like the golden ticket on e-bay that are probably causing more anger than most



They can do as they wish. No matter how many waltfan1957's are out there. As long as they are using there points, aren't morphing transferred points then they are doing what they have a right to do.

As for the "golden ticket" call it what you want. I used the term because we just watched Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The term was just in my head.

Other Timesahes actually rent weeks/and or points FOR the members. They take a fee of course for this service. That in itself should prove without a shadow of a doubt that renting is allowed and yes even pre-booking weeks. Are you maintaining that Marriott and other large companies providing this service to the members are wrong or doing something illegal?

Please feel free to voice your displeasure with the business of renting directly to DVC. You may be surprised at what the response is.

waltfan1957
01-20-2007, 04:19 PM
Please feel free to voice your displeasure with the business of renting directly to DVC. You may be surprised at what the response is.

no need to Disney has already voiced their own concerns you must have read the thread where they said they were going to look at rental patterns to find commercial renters

waltfan1957
01-20-2007, 04:31 PM
Other Timesahes actually rent weeks/and or points FOR the members. They take a fee of course for this service. That in itself should prove without a shadow of a doubt that renting is allowed and yes even pre-booking weeks. Are you maintaining that Marriott and other large companies providing this service to the members are wrong or doing something illegal?

i have not mentioned any other timeshare company or marriot so how could i be maintaining anything if you wish to disagree with my opinion please stick to the facts and not make things up to justify your point of view

Starr W.
01-20-2007, 04:43 PM
Here is just one reason why I don't think renting will be in my future. Pullled this doozy off a thread at DVC Planning.


new renter ...help please!

I am renting a studio for 10 nights at the BCV, My 5 yr old & I will be there the whole time, but I have different sets of people joining me at different times.....would I still be able to get the DDP since the people will be different every few days? Can anyone help with any other issues you think may arise....thanks so much!!!

Sammie
01-20-2007, 04:47 PM
Sammie, you are welcome to hold that opinion but it is not supported in FL law or in the POS. And there is no published definition of Commercial Renting. The closest thing to it as stated in the POS is the limit of 2000 per resort and 5000 per person "To encourage purchase for personal use".

My understanding of it is based on information given to me by DVC. Anyone wishing clarification can contact them too. I never go into anything without the facts.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 04:52 PM
i have not mentioned any other timeshare company or marriot so how could i be maintaining anything if you wish to disagree with my opinion please stick to the facts and not make things up to justify your point of view



What you are maintaining is that renting is wrong and that pre-booking weeks is wrong. I simply pointed out that other Timeshare companies are doing it for the membership. Seems they think it is OK.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 05:08 PM
My understanding of it is based on information given to me by DVC. Anyone wishing clarification can contact them too. I never go into anything without the facts.

I'd like a clarification on this. What information was given by DVC that makes you think renting is against the rules of the POS?

That would be a direct contradiction from what I was told directly by DVC legal. Upon reviewing my rental history and tactics used I was told in no uncertain terms that nothing I was doing is wrong.

With your track record here on the Dis, now I am confused. See, this is part of the problem, so many diferent bits of information given depending upon who you speak to. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 05:12 PM
I'd like a clarification on this. What information was given by DVC that makes you think renting is against the rules of the POS?

That would be a direct contradiction from what I was told directly by DVC legal. Upon reviewing my rental history and tactics used I was told in no uncertain terms that nothing I was doing is wrong.

With your track record here on the Dis, now I am confused. See, this is part of the problem, so many diferent bits of information given depending upon who you speak to. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page.

If you weren't engaging in commercial renting then you did nothing wrong. I asked what was considered appropriate in respect to renting and what was not and I was told.

I have never been against renting for personal use and the POS allows it, as it should. The POS does not allow commercial use of DVC and some renting in my opinion (and obviously in DVC's opinion) crossed the line.

All renting is not commercial.

dumbo71
01-20-2007, 05:34 PM
If you weren't engaging in commercial renting then you did nothing wrong. I asked what was considered appropriate in respect to renting and what was not and I was told.

I have never been against renting for personal use and the POS allows it, as it should. The POS does not allow commercial use of DVC and some renting in my opinion (and obviously in DVC's opinion) crossed the line.

All renting is not commercial.


Thank you. Was a defintion or guideline provided? I wasn't provided with one, just told I was doing nothing wrong.

Plutofan
01-20-2007, 09:52 PM
I for one would hope that Disney does not do away with renting. Until we get a fair trade outside of DVC renting is one of the few if not only avenue to get a fair value out of your mermbership when you are not staying at a DVC resort. I rented points this past year becuase there was no way that I was going to trade points in for a cruise at $6.7 per points when my cost is well $10 with my mortgage interest. I for one will not be happy to have a lot of money invested with DVC to find out that a am paying a lot more for a cruise than a normal person who has not spent much money with Disney. Believe me since there are 8 of us going on the cruise that the price difference between using points and paying cash is significant. I believe that we all should all let Disney decide who is violating the rules based upon the circumstance.

Dean
01-20-2007, 10:01 PM
My understanding of it is based on information given to me by DVC. Anyone wishing clarification can contact them too. I never go into anything without the facts.The only other info we've had is second hand from now at least 2 sources of 20 (? total reservations or just rentals) per year.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 10:04 PM
The only other info we've had is second hand from now at least 2 sources of 20 (? total reservations or just rentals) per year.

I asked and they emailed me a response. Any member can do the same.

Dean
01-20-2007, 10:08 PM
I asked and they emailed me a response. Any member can do the same.We get all kind of answers from MS on many topics, many are not accurate and not official. Thus I wouldn't have much faith in an email from MS on this topic, only from corporate or legal.

Sammie
01-20-2007, 10:10 PM
We get all kind of answers from MS on many topics, many are not accurate and not official. Thus I wouldn't have much faith in an email from MS on this topic, only from corporate or legal.

I don't think I said I got a reply from MS, you assume much.

Dean
01-20-2007, 10:15 PM
I don't think I said I got a reply from MS, you assume much.Actually I didn't assume and realize the possibility you could have gotten info from elsewhere but simply stated a position based on one possibility. Why don't you quote the email and post in here?

Sammie
01-20-2007, 10:18 PM
Actually I didn't assume and realize the possibility you could have gotten info from elsewhere but simply stated a position based on one possibility. Why don't you quote the email and post in here?

For what purpose. I contacted DVC to get clarification about renting, as I truly did not know what was acceptable. I recieved clarification from Business Standards & Regulatory Affairs at Disney Vacation Club. The email was addressed personally to me.

Unlike some I don't put personal emails addressed to me on the Net. I find that very unprofessional and a violation of the person who sent it.

Any member can do as I did and recieve information. Why the picking at me about it? :confused3

Dean
01-20-2007, 10:35 PM
For what purpose. I contacted DVC to get clarification about renting, as I truly did not know what was acceptable. I recieved clarification from Business Standards & Regulatory Affairs at Disney Vacation Club. The email was addressed personally to me.

Unlike some I don't put personal emails addressed to me on the Net. I find that very unprofessional and a violation of the person who sent it.

Any member can do as I did and recieve information. Why the picking at me about it? :confused3I'm not trying to pick at you, I am sorry you took it that way and apologize if it came across as such. If there's a policy it should be reproducible. But if you're uncomfortable passing it along I understand.

WebmasterDoc
01-20-2007, 10:38 PM
Sammie, you are welcome to hold that opinion but it is not supported in FL law or in the POS. And there is no published definition of Commercial Renting. The closest thing to it as stated in the POS is the limit of 2000 per resort and 5000 per person "To encourage purchase for personal use".

Actually the POS does provide a definition of "Commercial Purpose". "Commercial Renting" is not a phrase I find in the POS - if you find it in the POS, please provide the location.

The specific language is: " ... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any other purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include, but not be limited to, a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... "

This has been brought up time-after-time and we still see posters referring to Commercial Renting when that is NOT in the POS. DVC has included a definition for "Commercial Purpose" and whether anyone agrees with that definition or not it does exist.

Doctor P
01-21-2007, 05:43 AM
Actually the POS does provide a definition of "Commercial Purpose". "Commercial Renting" is not a phrase I find in the POS - if you find it in the POS, please provide the location.

The specific language is: " ... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any other purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include, but not be limited to, a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... "

This has been brought up time-after-time and we still see posters referring to Commercial Renting when that is NOT in the POS. DVC has included a definition for "Commercial Purpose" and whether anyone agrees with that definition or not it does exist.

And there is case law, federal statutes and regulations, and state statutes and regulations that also help define the parameters of "commercial purpose." Ask any accountant whether there are objective ways to define whether someone is engaging in a commercial enterprise. I assure you that the answer is yes.

Dean
01-21-2007, 08:53 AM
Actually the POS does provide a definition of "Commercial Purpose". "Commercial Renting" is not a phrase I find in the POS - if you find it in the POS, please provide the location.

The specific language is: " ... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any other purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include, but not be limited to, a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... "

This has been brought up time-after-time and we still see posters referring to Commercial Renting when that is NOT in the POS. DVC has included a definition for "Commercial Purpose" and whether anyone agrees with that definition or not it does exist.I am aware of the language and the reference. The point was there is no actual definition of what that is.

Dean
01-21-2007, 08:55 AM
And there is case law, federal statutes and regulations, and state statutes and regulations that also help define the parameters of "commercial purpose." Ask any accountant whether there are objective ways to define whether someone is engaging in a commercial enterprise. I assure you that the answer is yes.The definition of commercial for taxes and the like is not the issue and IMO, does not apply to this discussion IMO.

waltfan1957
01-21-2007, 09:15 AM
What you are maintaining is that renting is wrong and that pre-booking weeks is wrong. I simply pointed out that other Timeshare companies are doing it for the membership. Seems they think it is OK.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

in your previous post you wrote quote "are you maintaining that marriot and other large companies etc" which I pointed out I never mentioned now you have changed it again do you actually read your own posts, commercial renting is something Disney is actively looking at and while I pay my dues to them their opinion is far more important to me than someone who twists others posts so they read how he wants them to, its quite sad really

dumbo71
01-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Actually the POS does provide a definition of "Commercial Purpose". "Commercial Renting" is not a phrase I find in the POS - if you find it in the POS, please provide the location.

The specific language is: " ... Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any other purposes other than the personal use described herein is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" shall include, but not be limited to, a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. ... " .



Thanks Doc.

Well, that really seems to answer it for the most part. Language exists that basically gives DVD/DVC the authority to decide "in it's reasonable discretion" just what constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

That lattitude should make those that are truly commercial very nervous.

dumbo71
01-21-2007, 09:32 AM
in your previous post you wrote quote "are you maintaining that marriot and other large companies etc" which I pointed out I never mentioned now you have changed it again do you actually read your own posts, commercial renting is something Disney is actively looking at and while I pay my dues to them their opinion is far more important to me than someone who twists others posts so they read how he wants them to, its quite sad really



With all due respect Walt I think you are confused with what I was doing. For that I apologize. I should have phrased it differently.

What I was trying to get accross is that most Timeshares allow renting and even do that for the membership in many cases.

I was simply wondering if you feel DVC is an exception?

You state at the end that DVC's opinion is the only important one. We finally agree. Why don't you call DVC or email them for a definition of commercial renting and post it all here for us to read.

crisi
01-21-2007, 09:45 AM
The definition of commercial for taxes and the like is not the issue and IMO, does not apply to this discussion IMO.

I disagree. The defination of commercial for taxes and the like is the legal definition of commercial. The contract is a legal document. If this ever goes to court, you can bet your booties that the legal definition of commercial will be in play.

drakethib
01-21-2007, 09:47 AM
Set a price and go with it.

See if you can get it.

Dean
01-21-2007, 09:51 AM
I disagree. The defination of commercial for taxes and the like is the legal definition of commercial. The contract is a legal document. If this ever goes to court, you can bet your booties that the legal definition of commercial will be in play.For a timeshare even renting one day is potentially a taxable event. While it would likely be discussed, they would not be one and the same from a DVC standpoint.

Doctor P
01-21-2007, 09:51 AM
I disagree. The defination of commercial for taxes and the like is the legal definition of commercial. The contract is a legal document. If this ever goes to court, you can bet your booties that the legal definition of commercial will be in play.

Bingo, crisi. That is the definition of commercial that the courts generally rely upon for guidance and would almost certainly be the rule of law in the absence of explicit statutory or regulatory guidance to the contrary.

waltfan1957
01-21-2007, 09:58 AM
With all due respect Walt I think you are confused with what I was doing. For that I apologize. I should have phrased it differently.

What I was trying to get accross is that most Timeshares allow renting and even do that for the membership in many cases.

I was simply wondering if you feel DVC is an exception?

You state at the end that DVC's opinion is the only important one. We finally agree. Why don't you call DVC or email them for a definition of commercial renting and post it all here for us to read.

no confusion here in what you were doing, other timeshare i dont care about its you that keeps mentioning them? DISNEY has made their intentions clear on this subject so why would I need to email them

dumbo71
01-21-2007, 10:32 AM
no confusion here in what you were doing, other timeshare i dont care about its you that keeps mentioning them? DISNEY has made their intentions clear on this subject so why would I need to email them

I'm glad you find them clear. The basis for this whole discussion is the ambiguity in the phrase "commercial" and DVC's lack of a clear defintion.

Well, at least 2 posters seem to have a definition.:rolleyes:

waltfan1957
01-21-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm glad you find them clear. You must be a little brighter than the rest of us because the basis for this whole discussion is the ambiguity in the phrase "commercial" and DVC's lack of a clear defintion.

Well, at least 2 posters seem to have a definition.:rolleyes:

I read one of your previous posts

"That lattitude should make those that are truly commercial very nervous":confused3

you seem to agree with whoever is nearest to your opinion.

as for the sarcasm regarding me being a little brighter and the 2 posters comment, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit,

I cant engage in battle of wits with an unarmed man;)

Doctor P
01-21-2007, 10:56 AM
For a timeshare even renting one day is potentially a taxable event. While it would likely be discussed, they would not be one and the same from a DVC standpoint.

You are confusing two different concepts in the tax law. All you are talking about is determining whether the rental income is taxable. The issue is whether it is a commercial activity which determines another set of rules, regulations, and reporting requirements as well as where the income gets reported. The definition of whether something is commercial activity is a much more general concept.

rinkwide
01-21-2007, 12:39 PM
...most Timeshares allow renting and even do that for the membership in many cases.

I was simply wondering if you feel DVC is an exception?...Well now, there's your problem; You need to keep in mind that DVC is a Vacation Club, not a timeshare.

dumbo71
01-21-2007, 12:49 PM
I read one of your previous posts

"That lattitude should make those that are truly commercial very nervous":confused3

you seem to agree with whoever is nearest to your opinion.

as for the sarcasm regarding me being a little brighter and the 2 posters comment, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit,

I cant engage in battle of wits with an unarmed man;)



Sorry, Walt.

I edited that post because it came off the wrong way.

You are entitled to your opinion and we'll leave it at that.

Sammie
01-21-2007, 02:18 PM
Well now, there's your problem; You need to keep in mind that DVC is a Vacation Club, not a timeshare.

I am sure that is a sarcastic comment to mine.

However I will concede that DVC in the larger form is a time-share but certainly not a traditional time-share. It is a vacation club and vacation clubs while being under the large grouping of time-share are different.

Differences being that one does not purchase a particular unit, or a certain week. The renting situation as pointed out by Dumbo is very different. Disney is never going to rent the units for members.

There are many differences which is why the industry differentiates between time-share and vacation club.

I am sure with your vast knowledge of the industry you know the difference, yet instead of simply pointing that out, you poke fun. Which contributes to my comment about the "in your face attitude" of those pro-renting.

I can always respect knowledge, and will gladly admit when I am wrong. Humor at other's expense is not actually funny.

crisi
01-21-2007, 04:37 PM
For a timeshare even renting one day is potentially a taxable event. While it would likely be discussed, they would not be one and the same from a DVC standpoint.

Whether DVC can restrict commericial renting has nothing to do with tax law. It has to do with contract law and business law. However, the definition of commerical is the same in all three cases. If you make a profit, its commercial.

Disney can rent rooms through CRO on a non-commerical basis - as long as they don't book a profit. Not doing that is easy - they transfer any profit over to offset dues. They have no profit and therefore aren't commercial.

On the other hand, if Joe Doe has 300 points, uses 150 of them and rents the other 150 of them to cover the dues on all 300, he is making a profit, since he is transfering profit from his "business" to benefit himself.

If Jane Smith has 300 points and rents them all at cost, there is no commerical venture.

If Bob Jones has 150 points and can't use them one year and rents them and turns a small profit, it could be construed as commerical (for tax purposes he'd need to report the profit) but because the action is not repeated, it probably wouldn't be construed as commercial.

This works for anything - having a cab, holding garage sales, being a photographer.

Paging Tom Morrow
01-21-2007, 04:54 PM
Whether DVC can restrict commericial renting has nothing to do with tax law. It has to do with contract law and business law. However, the definition of commerical is the same in all three cases. If you make a profit, its commercial.

Disney can rent rooms through CRO on a non-commerical basis - as long as they don't book a profit. Not doing that is easy - they transfer any profit over to offset dues. They have no profit and therefore aren't commercial.

On the other hand, if Joe Doe has 300 points, uses 150 of them and rents the other 150 of them to cover the dues on all 300, he is making a profit, since he is transfering profit from his "business" to benefit himself.

If Jane Smith has 300 points and rents them all at cost, there is no commerical venture.

If Bob Jones has 150 points and can't use them one year and rents them and turns a small profit, it could be construed as commerical (for tax purposes he'd need to report the profit) but because the action is not repeated, it probably wouldn't be construed as commercial.

This works for anything - having a cab, holding garage sales, being a photographer.

Crisi,

Legally, I agree the legal arguement you are making. The question then becomes what constitues "at cost".

Since the renter is under no obligation to actually use any points from any future years, one could argue that the "cost" (acquisition plus MF fees through 2041) of this year's points is extremely high.

Any legal action against the renter would likely be dismissed without prejudice, thereby allowing DVC lawyers to persue the matter once it could be susbstantiated that "at cost" has clearly been passed.

greenban
01-23-2007, 08:28 PM
This thread is yet another reason I have started the PDRA, the Professional DVC Rental Association. By becoming a member of this association you can avoid the dreaded commercial renter label, and not worry about the DVCs Compliance or Legal Departments. ($2.37 lifetime legal defense costs!)

Additionally, instead of being trashed and hated by the anti-rental factions, you become a :love: loved:love: , respected and admired provider of DVC accomidations. (Your results may vary).

Additionally, we have an injunction against popcorn:: rinkwidepopcorn:: , preventing his use of wit and irony against any of our members.

So join today, and get a free disk of copyrighted Disney photos to illegally use on your ebay listings!

-Tony

Anjelica
01-23-2007, 08:38 PM
This thread is yet another reason I have started the PDRA, the Professional DVC Rental Association. By becoming a member of this association you can avoid the dreaded commercial renter label, and not worry about the DVCs Compliance or Legal Departments. ($2.37 lifetime legal defense costs!)

Additionally, instead of being trashed and hated by the anti-rental factions, you become a :love: loved:love: , respected and admired provider of DVC accomidations. (Your results may vary).

Additionally, we have an injunction against popcorn:: rinkwidepopcorn:: , preventing his use of wit and irony against any of our members.

So join today, and get a free disk of copyrighted Disney photos to illegally use on your ebay listings!

-Tony

Just when you thought this thread would slowly, but surely fade away from "immediate" postings you resurrected it. The whole rent topic, etc. is like the Freddy Krueger of DVC.....:lmao:

drakethib
01-24-2007, 12:31 AM
What we need around the DIS is another threador poll on Commerical renting of DVC Points or at least another discusion on if it is right or wrong.

I think we are up to about 10,000 post on the same topic. :(

The poor horse is beyond beat.

dumbo71
01-24-2007, 09:10 AM
What we need around the DIS is another threador poll on Commerical renting of DVC Points or at least another discusion on if it is right or wrong.

I think we are up to about 10,000 post on the same topic. :(

The poor horse is beyond beat.


So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

Deb & Bill
01-24-2007, 01:11 PM
So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

Go back and read all the renting threads. You'll get your answers there.

drakethib
01-24-2007, 08:10 PM
So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

Much needed? I don't think anyone is going to die if the points aren't rented.

Appreciated. I can agree with that.

The first part of the question, yes, if you intentionally book premium weeks with the sole intention of renting them out, yes, those people are truly the devil, Satan, the dude down under, whatever you want to call them, because by doing so you are screwing over DVC members who could use those dates. I am not getting in the debate of everyone has the same chance to book those dates because it is nothing more then a bunch of BS. They are making money off of a system in a manner that was not intended to do such.Twist it anyway you want, think or yourself as a financial genius by doing so if you want, but you are screwing over DVC Owners and I truly hope that those doing so get caught and have the membership revoked.

Those who rent their points because they are not going to use them, can't make the trip that they had planned, or need to make a few bucks and book a trip for someone I have no problem with (again no prebooking on premium times for the sole intent of renting them). Now when someone goes out and buys a butt load of points with the sole intention of making money by renting them, I just don't think that is right as that is not the intent of DVC. JMHO

By the way Dumbo, this post isn't aimed at you. When I make the statement "you or your" in my post, I meant anyone in general. :)


Agreeing with Deb & Bill, I think all of the questions have been answered on the previous threads concerning renting points.

Last Comment, I really believe the Rent & Thread Board should be fee based. Minimum DisSupporter ($20) to post on that thread. Those who gripe about it could post on another board. Just think how big of a server the DIS could get with all that money. :)

keys2kingdom
01-24-2007, 08:45 PM
So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

{flame suit donned} {firefighters standing by :firefight }

I guess my stance is that if there were some way to ensure all points were only rented out after, say, the 6 month mark I wouldn't have a beef with it. I think members should get the first crack at ALL available accomodations before any non-members. I know the 6 month thing would inhibit the maximizing of profits but if it applied to EVERYONE then the rental prices might not be affected very much. I know points renting will never actually work this way but I think that would be my personal ideal scenario. Not that anyone cares.

This of course assumes that the morphing situation would be corrected once and for all.

Just my 2 cents since you asked.

Dean
01-24-2007, 09:22 PM
I think members should get the first crack at ALL available accomodations before any non-members.To me any owner at that resort is FAR more deserving than a non owner at that resort even if they want to rent. Technically one only owns at one resort for those points and is added to the club by nature of the system. Thus I don't see owners at other resorts having much to say about anything that an owner at a given resort does. To me, any DVC member that exchanges in at the 7 month window is simply an exchanger, not an owner.

kimberh
01-24-2007, 09:41 PM
To me any owner at that resort is FAR more deserving than a non owner at that resort even if they want to rent. Technically one only owns at one resort for those points and is added to the club by nature of the system. Thus I don't see owners at other resorts having much to say about anything that an owner at a given resort does. To me, any DVC member that exchanges in at the 7 month window is simply an exchanger, not an owner.

Good Point!

rinkwide
01-24-2007, 09:48 PM
...if you intentionally book premium weeks with the sole intention of renting them out, yes, those people are truly the devil, Satan, the dude down under...But what if they're Buddhist?

crisi
01-24-2007, 09:54 PM
And the problem remains that it is impossible to tell on a casual basis who is "renting" points and who is a real honest-to-goodness didn't-exchange-a-penny guest of the owner. If I give my mother in law points to use without my presence, is she less entitled to a standard view room than if I stay with her?

The way DVC is used by a lot of people is fairly complex. The contract we tried to by first time around was co-owned by three couples. A lot of people gift points to their parents or kids or siblings. Some people own DVC points as an employee or client perk. While we can tell who owns the contract at check in by checking ID against the name on the contract - being able to tell if a non-owner is a renter or not is a very difficult proposition.

keys2kingdom
01-24-2007, 09:55 PM
To me any owner at that resort is FAR more deserving than a non owner at that resort even if they want to rent. Technically one only owns at one resort for those points and is added to the club by nature of the system. Thus I don't see owners at other resorts having much to say about anything that an owner at a given resort does. To me, any DVC member that exchanges in at the 7 month window is simply an exchanger, not an owner.

Point taken and this is obviously DVC's view on the subject as well, I just don't feel this way personally. I'm not out to clobber anyone or get into an argument about telling people what to do with their membership I just think it would be nice if members got the first choice. I realize that from a business standpoint nobody cares about such pleasantries but if I were ever to rent out my points I'd feel guilty about renting them before the 7 month window opened up. (Not implying that anyone else should feel guilty, just saying that I would.)

Dean you are notoriously unemotional about your membership, and I think that's a good thing. I however, have become more emotional about my membership since the mush incident and for better or worse I think that's the way I will stay.

keys2kingdom
01-24-2007, 10:05 PM
And the problem remains that it is impossible to tell on a casual basis who is "renting" points and who is a real honest-to-goodness didn't-exchange-a-penny guest of the owner. If I give my mother in law points to use without my presence, is she less entitled to a standard view room than if I stay with her?

The way DVC is used by a lot of people is fairly complex. The contract we tried to by first time around was co-owned by three couples. A lot of people gift points to their parents or kids or siblings. Some people own DVC points as an employee or client perk. While we can tell who owns the contract at check in by checking ID against the name on the contract - being able to tell if a non-owner is a renter or not is a very difficult proposition.


I agree totally Crisi and that's why I said I knew that it would never really work that way. I know DVC doesn't really care about this issue and couldn't do anything about it even if they did. I was just sort of putting out a "bubble world" scenario and voicing my general feelings on renting.

crisi
01-25-2007, 07:56 AM
I agree totally Crisi and that's why I said I knew that it would never really work that way. I know DVC doesn't really care about this issue and couldn't do anything about it even if they did. I was just sort of putting out a "bubble world" scenario and voicing my general feelings on renting.

I know what you mean. There are some "generalilities" you get before buying DVC. One is that the rooms are available to the general public when not in use by the members. What I don't think many of us realize is how many rooms are being made available to the general public through members - EITHER in rentals or in DVC trades (CRO, II, whatever). CRO doesn't book Boardwalk View or Standard View - and DVC doesn't appear to let BCV go in II trades very often, but members renting their own points do grab prime rooms and prime resorts for rentals. Part of me says "they are their points, they are entitled to use them as they see fit" and part of me has an emotional gut punch whenever a renter starts asking about "what to request for a perfect view."

Dean
01-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Dean you are notoriously unemotional about your membership, and I think that's a good thing. I however, have become more emotional about my membership since the mush incident and for better or worse I think that's the way I will stay.First, I consider that a great completment. You do have a lot of company in this approach. I think most members on this board make emotional decisions then try to justify them on the back end many times with quotes not directly related to what they were intended in the POS, etc.

And the problem remains that it is impossible to tell on a casual basis who is "renting" points and who is a real honest-to-goodness didn't-exchange-a-penny guest of the owner. If I give my mother in law points to use without my presence, is she less entitled to a standard view room than if I stay with her?The way the rules are written, any guest that pays for your dinner is renting and makes you a renter.

greenban
01-25-2007, 03:48 PM
First, I consider that a great completment. You do have a lot of company in this approach. I think most members on this board make emotional decisions then try to justify them on the back end many times with quotes not directly related to what they were intended in the POS, etc.

The way the rules are written, any guest that pays for your dinner is renting and makes you a renter.

Alas the SCARLET Rpirate:

-Tony

"Officer I didn't realize what I was doing is considered renting, can't you cut me a break. This is my first infraction....?"

crisi
01-25-2007, 04:09 PM
The way the rules are written, any guest that pays for your dinner is renting and makes you a renter.

Well, that makes me safe. When we took our guests we picked up EVERYTHING.

Dean
01-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Well, that makes me safe. When we took our guests we picked up EVERYTHING.Lucky you, LOL.

CarolMN
01-25-2007, 05:10 PM
Lucky you, LOL.

IMHO, it's lucky GUESTS! :)

drakethib
01-25-2007, 08:19 PM
But what if they're Buddhist?

Then they would be the evil buddhist ?????

dumbo71
01-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Much needed? I don't think anyone is going to die if the points aren't rented.

Appreciated. I can agree with that.

The first part of the question, yes, if you intentionally book premium weeks with the sole intention of renting them out, yes, those people are truly the devil, Satan, the dude down under, whatever you want to call them, because by doing so you are screwing over DVC members who could use those dates. I am not getting in the debate of everyone has the same chance to book those dates because it is nothing more then a bunch of BS. They are making money off of a system in a manner that was not intended to do such.Twist it anyway you want, think or yourself as a financial genius by doing so if you want, but you are screwing over DVC Owners and I truly hope that those doing so get caught and have the membership revoked.

Those who rent their points because they are not going to use them, can't make the trip that they had planned, or need to make a few bucks and book a trip for someone I have no problem with (again no prebooking on premium times for the sole intent of renting them). Now when someone goes out and buys a butt load of points with the sole intention of making money by renting them, I just don't think that is right as that is not the intent of DVC. JMHO

By the way Dumbo, this post isn't aimed at you. When I make the statement "you or your" in my post, I meant anyone in general. :)


Agreeing with Deb & Bill, I think all of the questions have been answered on the previous threads concerning renting points.

Last Comment, I really believe the Rent & Thread Board should be fee based. Minimum DisSupporter ($20) to post on that thread. Those who gripe about it could post on another board. Just think how big of a server the DIS could get with all that money. :)


Thanks for the thoughts Drakethib.

You make some very valid points and I repsect how strongly you feel about this topic.

I also agree that at the minimum the rent/trade board users should pay a fee to use the board. Go on over there, you likely won't recognize a name because they do not, for the most part, contibute in any form to the board. Some do but most are just taking the free ride.

drakethib
01-25-2007, 09:42 PM
Thanks for the thoughts Drakethib.

You make some very valid points and I repsect how strongly you feel about this topic.

I also agree that at the minimum the rent/trade board users should pay a fee to use the board. Go on over there, you likely won't recognize a name because they do not, for the most part, contribute in any form to the board. Some do but most are just taking the free ride.

You are indeed correct on recognizing names. I would also venture to say that the bulk of the people renting out points or reservations have 25 post or less which I would skeptical (MHO) if I were renting.


Hopefully DIS will start charging for the Rent Board. It is one thing for long time members (regardless of post count) and members who actively participate on the DIS have a place to post rentals, but someone just signing on briefly to rent is just draining resources.

Again, MHO>

PinkTink63
01-26-2007, 01:11 AM
You are indeed correct on recognizing names. I would also venture to say that the bulk of the people renting out points or reservations have 25 post or less which I would skeptical (MHO) if I were renting >

This is something that I have noticed! I helped out some friends of mine and booked their trip for them and was just going to get points from the rent/ trade board to replace them. Everyone seems to have very few posts and want more than $10/pt. That's what I get for trying to help someone!:rotfl:

kdzgon
01-26-2007, 08:09 AM
This is something that I have noticed! I helped out some friends of mine and booked their trip for them and was just going to get points from the rent/ trade board to replace them. Everyone seems to have very few posts and want more than $10/pt. That's what I get for trying to help someone!:rotfl:

We are new owners and purchased a resale contract with current points we would be unable to use, so I rented them. Upon the advice of some experienced members, I charged $10 per point. While I appreciated this advice and everything is going smoothly, I will not rent at that price again - it is simply too low for everything involved, and I will now have more references available.

That said, I suspect the odds of us renting points out in the foreseeable future are "slim to none". We just added a few more points, and I am already looking at subsidizing this year's quota by renting a few more points from others :goodvibes

targuard
01-26-2007, 09:30 AM
I'm new at this so.........

How does one go about "renting" points that I can not use? Do I actually have to call and make the reservation for the person and put their name on it or do I send Disney something saying please transfer X # of points to this member one time?

It seams like alot of work if its up to me to book the time and do the leg work.

salmoneous
01-26-2007, 09:48 AM
There are two separate transactions

"Renting Points" is you making a reservation and somebody pays you to use that reservation. You have to make the reservation for the person, plus make all calls to MS to add the DDP, change people on the reservation etc.

You can also tranfer points, which is a simplier 1-time transaction. You move the points and are done with them. However, you can only do one tranfer a year, and you usually have to charge a bit less than a rental.

greenban
01-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Then they would be the evil buddhist ?????


I believe the PC term is the anti-Budda.

-Tony

greenban
01-26-2007, 11:19 AM
There are two separate transactions

"Renting Points" is you making a reservation and somebody pays you to use that reservation. You have to make the reservation for the person, plus make all calls to MS to add the DDP, change people on the reservation etc.

You can also tranfer points, which is a simplier 1-time transaction. You move the points and are done with them. However, you can only do one tranfer a year, and you usually have to charge a bit less than a rental.

Actually, it is completely against the policies in the POS to accept any compensation for a transfer. Be careful.

-Tony

PinkTink63
01-27-2007, 02:02 AM
We are new owners and purchased a resale contract with current points we would be unable to use, so I rented them. Upon the advice of some experienced members, I charged $10 per point. While I appreciated this advice and everything is going smoothly, I will not rent at that price again - it is simply too low for everything involved, and I will now have more references available.

That said, I suspect the odds of us renting points out in the foreseeable future are "slim to none". We just added a few more points, and I am already looking at subsidizing this year's quota by renting a few more points from others :goodvibes

When we first bought DVC we rented out our points, because we already had our vacation to Disneyland set and we rented ours for $10/pt. too! I thought I could easily get the points back that I rented to my friend, but that does not seem to be the case now!:eek:

Slakk
01-27-2007, 07:35 AM
Well, that makes me safe. When we took our guests we picked up EVERYTHING.

Count me in too...my parents come with us every year now and pay for nothing. I stupidly offered to add my brother and his family to next year's trip and so now I think I could seriosly be called the family welfare state.

How can I rent points when my family uses them???

booger73
02-04-2007, 03:04 PM
Not to keep digging up an old thread.. but.. isn't this, obviously 'commercial' ? for profit? (i mean.. ebay, come on.. isn't that obviously 'commercial' ?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Disney-Boardwalk-Timeshare-Rental-Studio-Easter-Week_W0QQitemZ130073581507QQihZ003QQcategoryZ3257Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

5 days, 4/8-4/13 is 19*5 = 95 pts. Price for 2118 = ~>20/point

Not only that, but 2 available.. and also other dates 4/6, 4/20, 4/22, 3/21, 3/25 ?

Again, tying up a boardwalk view studio(*2) for even other BWV owners?
Doesn't bug me because there's no way my family can go during Easter (school age kids).. but how many people would that "disturb" because they wanted BV, BWV"..

Not that the person has any biters on it.. but how many other people are "disturbed" that someone could be making $, and "you" aren't..

kimberh
02-04-2007, 03:52 PM
Not to keep digging up an old thread.. but.. isn't this, obviously 'commercial' ? for profit? (i mean.. ebay, come on.. isn't that obviously 'commercial' ?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Disney-Boardwalk-Timeshare-Rental-Studio-Easter-Week_W0QQitemZ130073581507QQihZ003QQcategoryZ3257Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

5 days, 4/8-4/13 is 19*5 = 95 pts. Price for 2118 = ~>20/point

Not only that, but 2 available.. and also other dates 4/6, 4/20, 4/22, 3/21, 3/25 ?

Again, tying up a boardwalk view studio(*2) for even other BWV owners?
Doesn't bug me because there's no way my family can go during Easter (school age kids).. but how many people would that "disturb" because they wanted BV, BWV"..

Not that the person has any biters on it.. but how many other people are "disturbed" that someone could be making $, and "you" aren't..

That ebay seller has some at VWL and Beach Club during the same time frame. I wonder if he or she will rent them at that high price?

kdzgon
02-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Not to keep digging up an old thread.. but.. isn't this, obviously 'commercial' ? for profit? (i mean.. ebay, come on.. isn't that obviously 'commercial' ?)

...

I'm not sure I'd assume ebay is any more or less "commercial" than posting on the disboards (or "other DVC rental boards"), especially if the owner/renter is not a "regular" here, familiar with the existence of the rental board. And, while this particular owner appears to rent on a regular basis, I would note there are a number of "regulars" here that do the same, for varied reasons.

(I am not saying the ebayer is/is not renting for profit, just saying the use of ebay to do so is not an automatic "obviously 'commercial'")

greenban
02-05-2007, 05:22 AM
I'm not sure I'd assume ebay is any more or less "commercial" than posting on the disboards (or "other DVC rental boards"), especially if the owner/renter is not a "regular" here, familiar with the existence of the rental board. And, while this particular owner appears to rent on a regular basis, I would note there are a number of "regulars" here that do the same, for varied reasons.

(I am not saying the ebayer is/is not renting for profit, just saying the use of ebay to do so is not an automatic "obviously 'commercial'")

However, IMHO, Disney would consider this a pattern of commercial activity. It involves more than one listing, thus a pattern, and it is for money, thus commercial.

However I agree with the kdzgon, that regular users of the Rent/Trade Sub, such as myself, also would fit into this description.

-Tony

Slakk
02-05-2007, 06:59 AM
Hypothetical question about renting. Since the Concierge level rooms at AKV will be hard to come by do you think Disney will come down hard on people for renting points at peak times (like Christmas) knowing those reservations will be premium?

Just curious...

greenban
02-05-2007, 07:15 AM
Hypothetical question about renting. Since the Concierge level rooms at AKV will be hard to come by do you think Disney will come down hard on people for renting points at peak times (like Christmas) knowing those reservations will be premium?

Just curious...

I think anyone renting at AKV (before the new building is complete) risks getting squashed down flat to a couple of microns!

JMHO!

-Tony

Dean
02-05-2007, 06:11 PM
Hypothetical question about renting. Since the Concierge level rooms at AKV will be hard to come by do you think Disney will come down hard on people for renting points at peak times (like Christmas) knowing those reservations will be premium?

Just curious...No, not a bit. Renting is expressly allowed.

kdzgon
02-05-2007, 06:23 PM
No, not a bit. Renting is expressly allowed.

I'm with Dean on this one. I don't expect to see any exclusions/special restrictions on AKV bookings this yr re: rentals.

WebmasterDoc
02-05-2007, 06:45 PM
As already stated by Dean and others, renting is expressly allowed and the rental of ANY reservation alone should not trigger a red flag for DVC regardless of the dates or resort.

What could trigger a concern by DVC is a "pattern of rental activity that the Board in it's reasonable discretion could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice." This is a concept that has been widely discussed and debated on these boards and, IMO, widely misunderstood by many.

Renting a single reservation for a popular time or resort has never been the problem and AKV isn't likely to be any different.

rinkwide
02-05-2007, 11:30 PM
"...reasonable..."That one happens to be my favorite word in the entire POS.

jdsmom97
02-06-2007, 07:00 PM
I am a renter and agree.. $12 per point still alows renters a great discount as a room may only be $140 per night and no taxes! I recently rented for almost 13 per point and I still feel like we got a deal. We can't afford to buy, but can afford a great resort each year thanks to DVC owners.:cutie:

Dean
02-06-2007, 07:55 PM
That one happens to be my favorite word in the entire POS.LOL and also falls into Doc's statement above about most misunderstood.

kdzgon
02-06-2007, 08:41 PM
I think anyone renting at AKV (before the new building is complete) risks getting squashed down flat to a couple of microns!

JMHO!

-Tony

Just saw first(?) advertisement for the rental of AKV points &/or reservation(s)...check out the rental board here on DIS....

kdzgon
02-18-2007, 11:02 AM
Never mind ebay - THIS is what I would consider a commercial renter's site: http://www.dvcrequest.com/

Look at the long list of "comments" from renters...I'm amazed this site is still so active if indeed Disney is "serious" about cracking down on "commercial" rentals.

keys2kingdom
02-18-2007, 08:43 PM
Never mind ebay - THIS is what I would consider a commercial renter's site: http://www.dvcrequest.com/

Look at the long list of "comments" from renters...I'm amazed this site is still so active if indeed Disney is "serious" about cracking down on "commercial" rentals.

Good ole Daddio right here on the DIS boards.

TenThousandVolts
02-18-2007, 09:21 PM
"reasonable" is a very unusual choice of wording for a legal document. Rule one in contract writing is to use the most specific language possible.

kdzgon
02-19-2007, 07:53 AM
Good ole Daddio right here on the DIS boards.
Well, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but my opinion is the same: if this is not something that Disney would qualify as "commercial", I should have nothing to worry about with my relatively paltry amount of points and/or rentals, even if I choose to rent through ebay.

M&C
02-19-2007, 05:18 PM
I skipped to the last page, sorry if this has been addressed before. Anyway, I am considering renting or transfering points (around 42 to 64, have to check MS). Never considered this when we bought into DVC. But right now it is not enough points to do much outside of WDW, plus the 42 will expire July 07. Any advice on whether I should rent or trade and how should I go about doing it?

Thanks for your comments. I'm just a little uncomfortable with the whole thing.

M&C

Deb & Bill
02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
I skipped to the last page, sorry if this has been addressed before. Anyway, I am considering renting or transfering points (around 42 to 64, have to check MS). Never considered this when we bought into DVC. But right now it is not enough points to do much outside of WDW, plus the 42 will expire July 07. Any advice on whether I should rent or trade and how should I go about doing it?

Thanks for your comments. I'm just a little uncomfortable with the whole thing.

M&C

Couldn't you still bank them? Depending on your total number of points, you should still be in the last banking time frame.

M&C
02-19-2007, 09:59 PM
Couldn't you still bank them? Depending on your total number of points, you should still be in the last banking time frame.

These are 2005 points (I think) that has already been banked. They expire end of July 2007, right? I thought if you banked this year's points, you have to use them next year. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I'd rather use them after July 2007.

Thanks!

M&C

keys2kingdom
02-19-2007, 11:30 PM
Well, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but my opinion is the same: if this is not something that Disney would qualify as "commercial", I should have nothing to worry about with my relatively paltry amount of points and/or rentals, even if I choose to rent through ebay.

Certainly didn't offend me, I've often wondered why his site is still operating. Guess the DVC ::cop: haven't noticed him yet.

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 09:26 AM
Hypothetical question about renting. Since the Concierge level rooms at AKV will be hard to come by do you think Disney will come down hard on people for renting points at peak times (like Christmas) knowing those reservations will be premium?

Just curious...



No, they are powerless to stop it. Unless someone is using copyrighted photos then they are safe.

Once again, to my knowledge, there has not been any enforcement to this point. The letters sent and emails about renting were nothing but a scare tactic. What was done and frankly it is all they can do is limit transfers.

If DVC can rent so can the membership.

I'd say three cheers for the $20 pp EBay lister. If they get it ,power to them.

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 09:29 AM
Good ole Daddio right here on the DIS boards.


Yes Daddio has a great site. I consider that living proof that DVC is powerless to stop this stuff. Come on they can't find that but we can????

Figment2
02-20-2007, 09:29 AM
M&C - banked points cannot be banked again so they would expire July 2007. In other words, the 2005 points banked to 2006 expire at the end of the 2006 use year (July 2007).

Cyn

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 09:30 AM
I think anyone renting at AKV (before the new building is complete) risks getting squashed down flat to a couple of microns!

JMHO!

-Tony


Just curious why you feel that way?

childsplay
02-20-2007, 11:33 AM
No, they are powerless to stop it. Unless someone is using copyrighted photos then they are safe.

Once again, to my knowledge, there has not been any enforcement to this point. The letters sent and emails about renting were nothing but a scare tactic. What was done and frankly it is all they can do is limit transfers.

If DVC can rent so can the membership.

I'd say three cheers for the $20 pp EBay lister. If they get it ,power to them.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. We are in the very beginning stages of this senerio. Remember, DVC did little or nothing about this for years, so I see the letters more as an opening salvo rather than Disney's best and most agressive action. In my opinion we are not nearly far enough into this the determine if letters are DVC's only course of action, it is reasonable on Disney's part to allow time for people to digest the information they have been given before they move forward. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure I completely agree with this. We are in the very beginning stages of this senerio. Remember, DVC did little or nothing about this for years, so I see the letters more as an opening salvo rather than Disney's best and most agressive action. In my opinion we are not nearly far enough into this the determine if letters are DVC's only course of action, it is reasonable on Disney's part to allow time for people to digest the information they have been given before they move forward. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.



This is completely reasonable and it is hard to disagree with. I think it is that fear that they are hoping will work.

I wonder from a legal standpoint if they can stop an owner from renting? I don't believe so. I've even spoken to my attorney about it and he said, "While you wouldn't want to spend the money to fight it, He saw nothing in the POS keeping owners from renting. He did point out, however, that transfers for money is strictly prohibited and that I should not even consider that. There is also some Timeshare laws and precendents there that tell me they canot stop it.

I got out for various reasons from renting but as I type this I plan to call my guide about AKV, I might be back in the game soon enough.

kdzgon
02-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Yes Daddio has a great site. I consider that living proof that DVC is powerless to stop this stuff. Come on they can't find that but we can????

I agree - his site is very well done!

I haven't owned long enough to have a strong opinion on (or opposition to) large-scale renting, although that might change if I consistently find myself unable to book vacations for my choice of dates.

squidmo
02-20-2007, 01:31 PM
I don't have a problem with point rentals (such as at Daddio's site, which is REALLY well done), because the reservations are being made for specific people who ARE going to be travelling on the reserved dates. But I do think it's unethical for rentors to book prime weeks (probably calling day-by-day), specifically in order to rent them out. In these cases they are holding reservations for phantom people, making it more difficult for real people with real vacation plans to get these prime dates.

childsplay
02-20-2007, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=dumbo71;17125404]This is completely reasonable and it is hard to disagree with. I think it is that fear that they are hoping will work.

I think that is a strong possibility.

I wonder from a legal standpoint if they can stop an owner from renting? I don't believe so. I've even spoken to my attorney about it and he said, "While you wouldn't want to spend the money to fight it,


And that has always been the reality of the issue for me. That at some point if Disney wants to press the issue it is going to end up costing the owner far more to try and fight them, especially when Disney introduces the IRS agent sitting next to them who is wondering why all this "rental income" has gone unreported.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who married into a family who owned a small autoparts plant which supplied items to one of the Big 3 in the auto industry. This was years ago when a new CEO took over and as a cost cutting measure he said they would have to renegotiate all their contracts with their suppliers, when he was reminded by my friends fathe-in-law that they already had a binding contract the CEO's answer was simple and direct..."Sue us, we have more lawyers than you have employees" The message was clear...and after consulting with his attorneys the father-in-law decided to renegotiate, they really had no choice even though they were in the right. To a certain extent I feel the same way about Disney when it comes to this issue, they are the 800 lb gorilla.

Chuck S
02-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Personally, I think the problem may "self correct" with AKV and future resorts. As annual fees for AKV and CRV (if built) and the buy-in price will obviously be quite a bit higher than the previous resorts...there won't be as many owners willing to rent at those locations for $10, yet many older resort owner will still be doing OK in the $10 to $12 per point range...and naturally, most people tht rent point will go for the less expensive locations.

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 04:45 PM
Personally, I think the problem may "self correct" with AKV and future resorts. As annual fees for AKV and CRV (if built) and the buy-in price will obviously be quite a bit higher than the previous resorts...there won't be as many owners willing to rent at those locations for $10, yet many older resort owner will still be doing OK in the $10 to $12 per point range...and naturally, most people tht rent point will go for the less expensive locations.



Chuck this is a great point. Those choosing to purchase and rent the more expensive resorts will be directly competing with owners of the cheaper resorts. Thanks for making that point.

dumbo71
02-20-2007, 04:51 PM
And that has always been the reality of the issue for me. That at some point if Disney wants to press the issue it is going to end up costing the owner far more to try and fight them, especially when Disney introduces the IRS agent sitting next to them who is wondering why all this "rental income" has gone unreported.


Now that is an entirely different problem. My advice to ANYONE who rents is to declare that money as rental income. You do not want the IRS involved with this.



To a certain extent I feel the same way about Disney when it comes to this issue, they are the 800 lb gorilla.


Again I agree although I will say the courts seem to frowning down on these big comapnies just squashing the little guy.

My advice to anyone renting is this simple, declare all rental income and really keeep your eyes and ears open. Also do not use copyrtighted materials.

I've done digging and I've yet to uncover any true enforcement. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just hasn't to my knowledge.

tubtruck
02-20-2007, 06:23 PM
At what point do people consider that it is renting for profit ?, If someone that had paid $91 for their points rented them out at$15 per point once and once only in the next 5 years It wouldnt have made a profit if I they then rented them out twice it still wouldnt have made a profit, if they have a loan that will have cost $1000s more than the cost of the points in fact if they had a 10 year loan on 250 points it would have cost an approximate extra of $14000 on the loan so the points cost would be 60% more, so the points would have cost in total before any maintenance a total of $151 per point. Assuming that the points were sold back to Disney they are presently offering around $56ish (assume they needed the money fast at some point, it can take ages to sell through resale) there would be a loss of around $95 per point, note any resale price in the future cannot be guaranteed) assume over the next 10 years an average maintenance of $5 per point per year it would mean if the points were rented out at $15 per point per year it would be an income of $10 per point per year therefore a total of 9 years to break even hardly a big profit spinner.
I know it is difficult to decide who is renting for profit and who is not but these figures show that its not so simple as to say he's charging a lot per point so is making a profit, other factors must be taken into account and as these are totaly private affairs of an individual it is almost impossible to say who is and who is not making a profit and who is merely breaking even.
If someone rents evry other year and cover their dues, are they making a profit ? At the end of the day what a person buys for and what they sell at is impossible to know.

Dean
02-20-2007, 07:36 PM
At what point do people consider that it is renting for profit ?, If someone that had paid $91 for their points rented them out at$15 per point once and once only in the next 5 years It wouldnt have made a profit if I they then rented them out twice it still wouldnt have made a profit, if they have a loan that will have cost $1000s more than the cost of the points in fact if they had a 10 year loan on 250 points it would have cost an approximate extra of $14000 on the loan so the points cost would be 60% more, so the points would have cost in total before any maintenance a total of $151 per point. Assuming that the points were sold back to Disney they are presently offering around $56ish (assume they needed the money fast at some point, it can take ages to sell through resale) there would be a loss of around $95 per point, note any resale price in the future cannot be guaranteed) assume over the next 10 years an average maintenance of $5 per point per year it would mean if the points were rented out at $15 per point per year it would be an income of $10 per point per year therefore a total of 9 years to break even hardly a big profit spinner.
I know it is difficult to decide who is renting for profit and who is not but these figures show that its not so simple as to say he's charging a lot per point so is making a profit, other factors must be taken into account and as these are totaly private affairs of an individual it is almost impossible to say who is and who is not making a profit and who is merely breaking even.
If someone rents evry other year and cover their dues, are they making a profit ? At the end of the day what a person buys for and what they sell at is impossible to know.Actually the profit itself has nothing to do with this issue. Anyone that wants to rent and lose money would be simply stupid, regardless of the reason they were renting. The issue is where to draw the line between the POS guaranteed ability to rent on your own vs a pattern of commercial usage. It is clear that to reasonably fit this definition one would have to rent a lot for at least several years to trigger this as a problem. My contention is that there is already a definition of sorts in the POS and that is the 2000/5000 limit on points owned, esp since it says something like to encourage for personal use in that sentence.

childsplay
02-20-2007, 09:14 PM
I've done digging and I've yet to uncover any true enforcement. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just hasn't to my knowledge.

I appreciate your interest and investigation into this issue, please continue to post any addtional information you uncover. I go back and forth on this issue when I try and decide how serious Disney is about controlling some of this. I do agree with you however, that it is possible that the letters might be as far as Disney is willing to go. We'll have to wait and see.

childsplay
02-20-2007, 09:22 PM
The issue is where to draw the line between the POS guaranteed ability to rent on your own vs a pattern of commercial usage.

That is exactly the issue at hand, few if any are arguing that renting is completely illegal, but rather does Disney have a right to put limits on rental activity. I have always fallen on the side that they do, where they decide to draw the line is up to them but I have always seen the "commercial activity" clause as a way to control extreme renting. I know others, many with much more experience than I have, interpret it differently I guess we'll see where DVC goes from here with some of the people renting 15- 20 times a year.

tubtruck
02-21-2007, 09:14 AM
That is exactly the issue at hand, few if any are arguing that renting is completely illegal, but rather does Disney have a right to put limits on rental activity. I have always fallen on the side that they do, where they decide to draw the line is up to them but I have always seen the "commercial activity" clause as a way to control extreme renting. I know others, many with much more experience than I have, interpret it differently I guess we'll see where DVC goes from here with some of the people renting 15- 20 times a year.
The number of rents per year is also difficult to quantify as to if it is commercial or not, if looking at the rental board a lot of people only want to rent for a few nights or sometimes only one, which is commercial?, someone who makes 10 two night rentals in studios for different people or someone who makes 2 grand villa rentals for 3 nights?, the second would easily outstip the first in the number of points needed to rent.
If it Disney did put some sort of limits on the number of rentals all I could see happening is that the price per point for smaller shorter term rentals would increase substancially compared to larger point rentals for bigger properties or longer stays as people who rent would know how many times they could do so whilst staying under Disneys Radar and would only be interested in renting out small numbers of points once they had got rid of their vast majority for the year. Bear in mind a relativly small contract for someone with the intention of renting may be 500 points and potentially this would be good for over 60 days of renting during the week at off peak times in studios at OKW that is potentially 12, 5 day rentals yet the same number of points could easily be swallowed up in less than 5 days for a BCV rental of a GV at Christmas.

Deb & Bill
02-21-2007, 09:27 AM
...Bear in mind a relativly small contract for someone with the intention of renting may be 500 points and potentially this would be good for over 60 days of renting during the week at off peak times in studios at OKW that is potentially 12, 5 day rentals yet the same number of points could easily be swallowed up in less than 5 days for a BCV rental of a GV at Christmas.

So the commerical renters have a GV at the BCV to rent out now, too???

childsplay
02-21-2007, 11:20 AM
The number of rents per year is also difficult to quantify as to if it is commercial or not, Bear in mind a relativly small contract for someone with the intention of renting may be 500 points and potentially this would be good for over 60 days of renting during the week at off peak times in studios at OKW that is potentially 12, 5 day rentals yet the same number of points could easily be swallowed up in less than 5 days for a BWV rental of a GV at Christmas.

That is an excellent point, and highlights why this issue is so tricky. I would argue that is what is happening to a certain extent with transfers now on the Rent/Trade Board. With the new rule of only one transfer, those looking to unload are waiting for large transfer opportunities instead of being able to do five small ones. I could be wrong, but I still think number of rentals will have to play a factor at some point in the equation though.

rinkwide
02-21-2007, 12:45 PM
So the commerical renters have a GV at the BCV to rent out now, too???I do. Well, sort of.

In actuality it's just a 1 bedroom, a 2 bedroom and a sledgehammer.

keys2kingdom
02-21-2007, 02:15 PM
So the commerical renters have a GV at the BCV to rent out now, too???


Wow, that would be some feat indeed creating nonexistent rooms out of thin air. Boy those commercial renters sure are powerful. ;)