DDP and free dining ruining WDW restaurants!

[dumbo71]

DDP and free dining are the roots of all evil as far as WDW dining is concerned.

These ill concieved plans have led to a dummying down of WDW menus, elimination of To Go orders at many WDW restaurants, packed restaurants where ADR's are necessary 90 days or more in advance or you won't get in, a decline in service and more.

Really none of these can be disputed if you have been visiting WDW for many years.

These plans have forced the restaurants to streamline the menus to make it easy to serve, and have ended up prompting a reduction in portion size. Waiters/ waitresses are also reporting losing money because they are not tipped properly. This has resulted in a loss of staff and for those who have stayed, a declining level of service. Why work harder for the extra tip from the cheap DDP and free dining plan users?

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

What do you care? You saved a few bucks, right. :confused3

[glitzybabes]

I THOUGHT THAT THEY GOT AN 18% TIP FROM THE DDP.
This is just an example but my family of 8 were dining at the 1900 Park Fare on the dining plan and I saw the tip that our waitress receive for all of us and it was about $50 for just refilling our drinks and taking away used plate. I think that is very good. I'm I wrong???

Tiffany

[Lewisc]

Servers get an 18% gratuity, at Disney owned restaurants the gratuity is based on the dollar value of the menu items ordered by the customer. An automatic gratuity is added on for out of pocket menu items. I'll dispute the claim that servers aren't being tipped properly. The server doesn't have to worry about guests who stiff them. The issue is the DDP tips are reported to the IRS The servers who used to "cheat" the government now have to pay their fair share of taxes. I'll dispute your claim that servers aren't tipped properly.

In general the Disney TS restaurants, with the possible exception of Olivas (sp), didn't offer take out service prior to the current DDP. Beaches and Cream limited take out to ice cream because the kitchen couldn't handle the orders for things like burgers. This was prior to the DDP. I'll dispute your claim.

Restaurants like CRT, Le Cellier and Chef Mickey's were very hard ADRs to get, even prior to the current dining plan. I'll partially dispute your claim, but I'll agree the dining plan is responsible for it being more difficult to get ADRs at short notice at some restaurants.


With the exception of Coral Reef I've observed very few menu changes that can be attributed to the dining plan. CRT "dumbed down" the menu at the same time they went from a one credit to a two credit meal. Everyone blamed the dining plan when Chefs de France droped the filet in favor of flank steak but the filet is back on the menu. The quality of food at Chef Mickey's dropped long before the current dining plan. Disney has standardized the bar menus and they're not included in the dining plan. I'll dispute the claim that the dining plan is responsible for all the changes.

I'll not only dispute your claim but think you're rude to blame the DDP customers. Disney, not the customers designed the plan. The plan works great. Disney's restaurants are now more filled than they were in the past.

Fortunately Disney still has options for "foodies" V&A doesn't participate. Bistro doesn't participate. Some of the better restaurnats in DTD don't particpate. S/D has two (soon to be 3) fine restaurants that don't accept dining.

Disney is using the dining plan in order to fill their restaurants and to serve the desires of their customers. If more customers were willing to pay $$$ for the kind of dining experience you're talking about Disney would exclude more restaurants than V&A.



DDP and free dining are the roots of all evil as far as WDW dining is concerned.

These ill concieved plans have led to a dummying down of WDW menus, elimination of To Go orders at many WDW restaurants, packed restaurants where ADR's are necessary 90 days or more in advance or you won't get in, a decline in service and more.

Really none of these can be disputed if you have been visiting WDW for many years.

These plans have forced the restaurants to streamline the menus to make it easy to serve, and have ended up prompting a reduction in portion size. Waiters/ waitresses are also reporting losing money because they are not tipped properly. This has resulted in a loss of staff and for those who have stayed, a declining level of service. Why work harder for the extra tip from the cheap DDP and free dining plan users?

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

What do you care? You saved a few bucks, right. :confused3

[WDWfor5]

I THOUGHT THAT THEY GOT AN 18% TIP FROM THE DDP.
This is just an example but my family of 8 were dining at the 1900 Park Fare on the dining plan and I saw the tip that our waitress receive for all of us and it was about $50 for just refilling our drinks and taking away used plate. I think that is very good. I'm I wrong???

Tiffany
You're correct - they get an 18% tip plus many of us who enjoyed the service tip extra.

The OP obviosuly got up on the wrong side of the bed today and just wants to pick a fight. I personally won't take the bait.

[WDWBetsy]

I'm just wondering if someone has a case of the Mondays. :rolleyes:

The way I see it: I bought a package offered by WDW which is promoted as offering convenience and saving money. It's also wonderful to have everything paid for in advance.

The package includes gratuities and taxes. We also tip extra if the service is outstanding. We were extremely pleased with the quality of food we enjoyed, as well as the service.

I'm happy with the product I purchased in the past and for our upcoming trip - and I am not apologizing for it.

[Pugrpooh]

Uh-oh, sorry. We went for free dining in August and we just booked it again for September. I guess we're partially to blame. However, I can't think of one meal we had last week at WDW that we all didn't waddle away from! We enjoyed every one of our meals last week. :)

[DLBDS]

I agree that it's a little obsurd to blame the DDP users. Heck, if I thought I could benefit from the DDP, I would be using it too! As it is, I think only overeaters and large families benefit from the DDP.

[dumbo71]

Beaches and Cream limited take out to ice cream because the kitchen couldn't handle the orders for things like burgers. This was prior to the DDP. I'll dispute your claim.

Then you would be wrong. This came straight form the GM at BC. DDP directly caused the change at B&C.


With the exception of Coral Reef I've observed very few menu changes that can be attributed to the dining plan.

Then you aren't looking.

I'll not only dispute your claim but think you're rude to blame the DDP customers. Disney, not the customers designed the plan. The plan works great. Disney's restaurants are now more filled than they were in the past.


Disney may have designed it but only because this cheap society of money savers we live in demanded it.

[dumbo71]

You're correct - they get an 18% tip plus many of us who enjoyed the service tip extra.

The OP obviosuly got up on the wrong side of the bed today and just wants to pick a fight. I personally won't take the bait.


So you believe that $38.00 per day per person covers tip and all? I don't care what WDW tells DDP users, wait people are getting stiffed. If they aren't then Disney is losing money hand over fist on this "plan".

I do blame the users of DDP AND WDW. Saving money is not worth the loss of choices, decline in standards and packed restaurants.

Enjoy your discounted grub.

I will put my money where my mouth is and each and every time I visit WDW I will eat meals off site. I will save those receipts, copy them and send them directly to WDW, letting them see how much money they lost on my trip. I encourage others to do the same until this ridiculous plan goes away.

EDit: another unfortunate side effect of DDP and free dining is that many of the fine WDW chefs are leaving. They simply do not want to work where no creativity is allowed and generic mass appealing food must be served.

[Lewisc]

I don't have to believe anything, Disney says the plan includes tips, the checks indicate an 18% gratuity is included, servers who post on DIS say they're getting an 18% gratuity and AFAIK the servers are unionized.

Don't take this the wrong way but I don't care what you think, the facts don't support it.

The restaurants are crowded, even without your patronage. Between the S/D and DTD there are plenty of restaurants on site you can enjoy.




So you believe that $38.00 per day per person covers tip and all? I don't care what WDW tells DDP users, wait people are getting stiffed. If they aren't then Disney is losing money hand over fist on this "plan".

[vital]

Disney may have designed it but only because this cheap society of money savers we live in demanded it.

So, you'd rather families with children not go to WDW and miss out on a vacation full of memories because they couldn't afford it without the plan? You must be sitting on a few oil wells in TX to not have to worry about saving money.

[DisneyKidds]

Does $38 per person cover the menu price of food ordered at TS and CS restaurants, plus snacks, and gratuities? Well of course not. Although there is a rather large difference between price and cost. Oh, and add to that the fact that the DDP is added to all those WDW vacation packages that include rooms at rack rate. No, Disney is not losing their shirt on the DDP.

Disney didn't invent the DDP because the cheap society of money savers we are demanded it, the designed it as a way to sell vacation packages that brought them a larger profit on the room portion, while giving the cheap money savers we are a perceived value in the "savings" we cheap grub eating slobs get with the DDP. In the end Disney fills their rooms at a higher rate, and the guests save a little money on their food, and everybody is happy.

I disagree about the servers getting stiffed....at least at Disney owned restaurants where they get 18% of the total amount of the food bill. You really think they were averaging 18% before the plan? Likely not. I know on each and every meal we had, the server got a larger tip than they would have had I not been on the plan. The point about what tip income get s reported now is a good one. Overall the tip income, reported or otherwise, is probably higher, but that doesn't mean that what stays in pocket is.

On our recent 9 day trip the food quality and service was as good or better than it has been as far back as I remember........and I'm talking 15 years of Disney trips. The menus, at least for the restaurant we ate in, were not any more limited than they ever were, with the exception of the kids menu changes which probably have little to do with the DDP.

Yes, it is harder to get a reservation now, but that is what Disney is supposed to do....fill their establishments.

Our trip provided no evidence that the DDP is ruining WDW restaurants.

[jodifla]

So, you'd rather families with children not go to WDW and miss out on a vacation full of memories because they couldn't afford it without the plan? You must be sitting on a few oil wells in TX to not have to worry about saving money.


Families need to pay what the plan is worth. It's a loss leader right now, and it's severely dragging down the quality of meals from just a few years ago.

I have no "oil wells" but I see a pyramid scheme here. Also, I don't know how folks can cry poor mouth when they are paying rack rates for rooms and expensive park tickets as well. The DDP on top of that is a huge expense!

I have DVC, so I'd never spend that much on food.

[jodifla]

Does $38 per person cover the menu price of food ordered at TS and CS restaurants, plus snacks, and gratuities? Well of course not. Although there is a rather large difference between price and cost. Oh, and add to that the fact that the DDP is added to all those WDW vacation packages that include rooms at rack rate. No, Disney is not losing their shirt on the DDP.

Disney didn't invent the DDP because the cheap society of money savers we are demanded it, the designed it as a way to sell vacation packages that brought them a larger profit on the room portion, while giving the cheap money savers we are a perceived value in the "savings" we cheap grub eating slobs get with the DDP. In the end Disney fills their rooms at a higher rate, and the guests save a little money on their food, and everybody is happy.

I disagree about the servers getting stiffed....at least at Disney owned restaurants where they get 18% of the total amount of the food bill. You really think they were averaging 18% before the plan? Likely not. I know on each and every meal we had, the server got a larger tip than they would have had I not been on the plan. The point about what tip income get s reported now is a good one. Overall the tip income, reported or otherwise, is probably higher, but that doesn't mean that what stays in pocket is.

On our recent 9 day trip the food quality and service was as good or better than it has been as far back as I remember........and I'm talking 15 years of Disney trips. The menus, at least for the restaurant we ate in, were not any more limited than they ever were, with the exception of the kids menu changes which probably have little to do with the DDP.

Yes, it is harder to get a reservation now, but that is what Disney is supposed to do....fill their establishments.

Our trip provided no evidence that the DDP is ruining WDW restaurants.


Then account for the no take out rules, which REALLY suck when you are at Olivia's, and the menu similarity all over the parks.


The DDP has DEFINITELY made life worse for me.

[DisneyKidds]

It's a loss leader right now, and it's severely dragging down the quality of meals from just a few years ago.
How do you figure this plan is having an impact at the individual restaurant level?

[WDWBetsy]

I'm so glad there's an ignore feature to these boards. It's not a discussion for some, but an outlet of anger.

[DisneyKidds]

Then account for the no take out rules, which REALLY suck when you are at Olivia's, and the menu similarity all over the parks.


The DDP has DEFINITELY made life worse for me.
I won't argue here. Along with making reservation harder to get, the changes in takeout offerings may be an unfortunate side effect of the plan....problems that go hand in hand. Higher volume means less resources for take out. But on the whole more people are getting perceived value out of the plan than are being hurt by the unfortunate side effects......which means Disney will continue to offer it.

If 100 people who never would have eaten a table service meal walk away raving about he food (after having gone to the restaurant from their rack rate room) while half a dozen people lament not getting takeout at Olivia's Disney views it as a positive as they will sell more packages.

Hey, I'm not saying the DDP is a great strategy for Disney. It's a means to sell what may be overpriced rooms. I'm not sure it's a great long term strategy.

[Lewisc]

Then account for the no take out rules, which REALLY suck when you are at Olivia's, and the menu similarity all over the parks.


The DDP has DEFINITELY made life worse for me.

There are small group of posters who don't like the cutbacks at the signature restuarnts. I think most of the cutbacks are overstated and/or not directly attributed to the current dining plan but some might be. I don't understand why restaurants like blueZoo, Shula's, Il Munio, Fulton's, Bistro, V&A isn't enough to satisfy that market segment.

Most of the TS restaurants don't offer take out, the kitchens aren't large enough to accomodate the demand.

[ElizabethB]

The OP has made some valid points. We, too, have noticed a decline in variety and food quality. Moreover, we don't enjoy restaurants that are packed to the rafters with diners.

I think Disney came up with the plan to compete more effectively with the other family vacation options -- cruises and all-inclusive resorts. I know my teenage nephew would much rather go on a cruise than go to WDW. My friend's 9-year-olds just came back from their first family cruise and feel exactly the same -- they've been to WDW once and Disneyland numerous times. They are begging to go on another cruise.

One way to compete with a cruise for the family vacation crowd is to offer an all-inclusive dining option. But, along with that goes a requirement that food service become more streamlined and, in order to offer the option at a somewhat affordable rate, the quality has to suffer, too. See cruise line dining if you don't understand this.

DH and I are pretty much resigned to this. We stick to the signature restaurants and don't try to dine in, say, World Showcase now. Also, DH says there's nothing anymore that could even tempt him to visit WDW except the Food and Wine Festival. We went to some fine wine dinners during the most recent Festival and enjoyed them. So, we'll go for what we like and leave the rest.

Also, people keep insisting that packed-to-the-rafters restaurants are a good thing -- shows WDW has a winning formula and is making tons of money and is meeting the needs of the majority of vactioners.

That's all well and good -- but three-hour ride lines would demonstrate the same thing! Yet, I'd never stand in such a line. Similarly, I won't dine where patrons are packed in like sardines. So, Disney has made its choice. All that's left is for us to make ours.

[gina2000]

Hey, I'm not saying the DDP is a great strategy for Disney. It's a means to sell what may be overpriced rooms. I'm not sure it's a great long term strategy.

I agree with this. I think this is a way of showing shareholders that the revenue generated by rooms covers interest expense on bonds floated to pay for the buildings.

I think DDP is a great strategy to entice first time TS patrons to appreciate and enjoy a sit-down dining experience. It appeals to people who formerly chose not to use TS due to cost or time. For those of us who have used TS dining extensively, it does appear that the quality of TS dining has declined. I know I won't patronize a couple of mid-priced TS restaurants that I formerly adored. The food no longer meets my expectations and doesn't deliver value and enjoyment for the price charged.

We'll be dining at the better WDW restaurants during our next visit. We've dined at all of them prior to the DDP. I can't help but wonder what will have changed. Unfortunately, I don't expect changes, if they do exist, to be for the better. We'll see.

[dumbo71]

So, you'd rather families with children not go to WDW and miss out on a vacation full of memories because they couldn't afford it without the plan? You must be sitting on a few oil wells in TX to not have to worry about saving money.


If they can come up with a plan that works without all the cuts I'd be more than happy to support it. That has not happened.

So if I have to experience less choices for families that "can't afford it" , No I'm not for that, sorry.

[rolshuk]

I am from the uk and will be getting the ddp free next year.
I would not be staying on site but for the plan.No way could I afford two weeks at a Disney resort if I had to eat ther as well....two weeks with flights etc is $7000 (incl.tickets).
So disney is gaining my custom and I will probly spend a lots more of my spending money there as a result.
To be honest I think some people dont like to see others getting something for free! :surfweb:

[Luv'sTink]

I have only been to WDW once and have no first hand knowledge of what the restaurants were prior to DDP.

With that said I have noticed in our local restaurants that the quality and choices of food has gone down, partly due to wages and gas prices causing a ripple effect. This could be part of the reason for menu changes and quality in WDW. Obviously it would have nothing to do with the reservations or amount of people. All I am saying is may not be the DDP all by itself.

[The Sweetness]

To be honest I think some people dont like to see others getting something for free! :surfweb:


I am a FL resident, and I will likely be purchasing the DDP for my trip comming at the end of the spring. I've already paid for a room at ASMO (I didnt ask for discounts, as I plan on getting the DDP) The truth is, If I decide not to do the DDp, I will cancell my res at ASMO and stay offsite. I can get a room that will suit my needs for $50 a night (CLEAN, 2 beds, A/C, a toilet, sink and shower) On my last vaca in 2001 to Orlando (we visited SW and USF) we stayed at a HoJo's for $40 a night, including a free hot buffet breakfast daily, and bus trans to USF and SW.

My point is, I dont think I am getting anything for free, by being allowed to use the dining plan (I will be paying). I do see your point, though that getting dining for free makes the vaca an even better deal.I surely don't think that you are getting something that you *dont deserve* by taking advantage of a great promotion.

PS~ the more people who think WDW dining is no longer good enough for them, the more tables available for those of us who disagree. :thumbsup2

[dumbo71]

I have only been to WDW once and have no first hand knowledge of what the restaurants were prior to DDP.

With that said I have noticed in our local restaurants that the quality and choices of food has gone down, partly due to wages and gas prices causing a ripple effect. This could be part of the reason for menu changes and quality in WDW. Obviously it would have nothing to do with the reservations or amount of people. All I am saying is may not be the DDP all by itself.


At least you are open to the possibility that DDP IS a factor. More than I can sday for Lewisc and the other group blinded by the lights of WDW.

[Kay1]

If they can come up with a plan that works without all the cuts I'd be more than happy to support it. That has not happened.

So if I have to experience less choices for families that "can't afford it" , No I'm not for that, sorry.

I really think that's why they took the salmon off the menu at Sci-Fi which bugs me because it's something my husband liked. I think that families who can't afford salmon should still go to Disney but order entrees that are less expensive.

[SoarinJ]

I LOVE the DDP and it is the reason I stay onsite, period. Without it, I would just stay elsewhere.

To the OP, grab a six pack and relax, would ya?

[Uncleromulus]

Easy boys--. THis is hardly a new subject and has been "discussed" any # of times already.
Keep it AS a "discusion" or we'll need to close it.

[susan1]

hi
donning flame-proof suit, it has puzzled me for years,at least 15! why any one would go to a theme park and its hotels for fine dining. surely if one wanted fine dining and presumably culture with it, a holiday in orlando idoes not exactly fill the criteria!

[dumbo71]

hi
donning flame-proof suit, it has puzzled me for years,at least 15! why any one would go to a theme park and its hotels for fine dining. surely if one wanted fine dining and presumably culture with it, a holiday in orlando idoes not exactly fill the criteria!


Susan,

No need for a flame suit at all. Valid point.

I'm not expecting gourmet food at WDW. All I'm expecting is the same quality, choices, TO GO orders, and service that we received before the dining plan. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not looking for culture either. We go to Europe for that or some of the finer US cities.

The declining standards at WDW should be a concern to all.

[PrincessTiff]

I don't use the DDP so I have nothing to add. I know these threads always ruffle some feathers. Anyone else want some popcorn:: ?


ETA- I noticed your one city over. :wave2:

[MainStMandy]

hi
donning flame-proof suit, it has puzzled me for years,at least 15! why any one would go to a theme park and its hotels for fine dining. surely if one wanted fine dining and presumably culture with it, a holiday in orlando idoes not exactly fill the criteria!

I completely disagree. I think that is one of the things that makes Disney so different from Six Flags or Busch Gardens...it's in a different league. Disney has created many types of restaurants, for all different types of customers. I can see how many are dissapointed by what was once something not known by the masses, but is it a terrible thing that more families can now afford to enjoy Disney the way it was intended.

[Lewisc]

At least you are open to the possibility that DDP IS a factor. More than I can sday for Lewisc and the other group blinded by the lights of WDW.

I'm not "blinded by the light of WDW". I'll even agree there have been cutbacks. I'll disagree with the posters who blame the DDP for those cutbacks. The standardization of the bar menus indicates the cutbacks isn't just DDP driven.

A poster in this thread blames the DDP on salmon being dropped from the menu at Sci-Fi. Salmon is not a particularly expensive entree, it's even offered at some CS restaunts.

Most of the TS restaurants don't offer take out. Beaches & Cream had to stop to go burgers before the current dining plan. Disney could either exclude to go from the dining plan or treat it like room service and charge two credits. The fact is the kitchen can't handle a full dining room and to go customers. As the restaurants get busy they can no longer accomodate to go customers.

Others may disagree but I refuse to link any complaints relating to crowded restaurants, such as difficulity in getting ADRs, to the dining plan. Disney wants the restaurants to be full. The DDP is the way they accomplished that goal but the result would be the same if the restaurants were filled as a result of other promotions.

The ADR difficulty is over-stated. Try to get a last minute ADR at Le Cellier, CRT or Chef Mickey's prior to the dining plan.

edited to say I'll agree the menu change at Coral Reef is DDP driven but the fact is Disney decided to downscale the menu so it would appeal to more customers. A similar menu change, and price reduction, may have been done without the DDP.

A number of posters blamed the DDP for flank steak at Chefs de France. It now looks like a normal menu change, the filet is back.

The "bean counters" are figuring out ways to cut costs and generate more profits from WDW. There are threads regarding reduced Christmas decorations. MVMCP guests no longer get a free picture. It's naive to think the restaurants would have been spared even if the DDP was never introduced.

[Lisa F]

Isn't this the same poster who was over on the DVC boards telling everyone that DVC has gone way downhill because he got a letter from them warning him about his commercial renting habits? I'm not sure I've ever seen a post from this person that hasn't been directed at stirring up crap.

[disgram]

I am one of the many who, without the DDP, would not be able to eat at many of the sit-down resturants. I take my DGDs on almost all my trips and would have a big problem. I don't mind getting up early in the am to call for ADRs.

However, that being said, I have on occasion, forgot to make, or wanted to change a couple ADRs while we were in the World and have not had a problem getting a seating at any of the resturants that I wanted. We go during school breaks and the places are very busy at that time, as you know. If you are flexible with the times, anything is possible. The latest we have eaten was in Epcot and that was a 7:15 reservation.

Having the plan paid off and all set before we arrive, makes things so much easier. The food that we have eaten using the DDP has been very good and the choices have been excellent for us. My DGDs range in age from 10 to 15 for our next trip. I have been taking them each year for the past 7 or 8 years. They are very good eaters and will try anything once. With the plan, they are experiencing many different foods. If it were not for the plan, I am fairly certain that we would all be eating at CS.

So for us, the DDP, is the best thing that has happened. We are able to stay on-site and enjoy going every year. Without it, the trips would be few and far between.

Also, even on the plan, I tip above the 18%. I think that good service deserves immediate notification and this is why I do it.

[themudd4]

Wow...someone is having a bad day.

We have went with and without using the dinning plan. Personally I like it. We were going to have ate at many of these places anyway, and this was an economical way of doing this. It is about time Disney gave a few breaks to the people who are dropping $1000's of dollars worth of hard earned money to spend their vacation time in their parks.

The wait staff do recieve the 18% regardless. Some times they deserve it sometimes they don't. If you feel they deserve more then give it to them...if you feel they deserve less then make a complaint right then and their to their supervisor. Don't complain about it to us when their is nothing we can do, especially they way you went about doing it.

Yes some of the menu's have changed...but news flash...some of them have changed back. And they changed prior to the DDP. Places change menus all of the time. Not just those in WDW. Heck my favorite place to eat while traveling is cracker barrel. They took my favorite sandwich off the menu. HOW DARE THEY!!! I am sure I should blame someone for it...

Hope you have a better day tomorrow!

[DVC Grammy]

We have been going to WDW since it was just MK, with a few hotels. There were few restaurants from which to choose, and overall, it was very difficult to find anything remotely "healthful" to eat. Since then, as WDW has grown, the quality and variety of food available has enormously improved. Is it on par with the finest restaurants in many cities? Maybe not, but in general, you can find something to meet most people's taste (just like some of the clothing that says "Fits most sizes" :teeth: ). Not everyone will find that it's for them. Yes, since WDW has so many guests now, ADR's are absolutely required for some of the TS places, but that's true in most popular restaurants in any city.
We've been going 2-4 times a year for a long time, and for those of us who remember the "good old/bad food" days, the overall change is very positive, DDP or no DDP!
( I know, it's my unsolicited two cents. :teeth: )

[macfamily]

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

You're welcome. I will continue to use the DDP because it is easier for us and saves us money. I also am with the understanding that the DDP includes an 18% gratuity. You are belittling those of us who want to make a hectic, crazy adventure to Disney a little bit less so? Too darn bad.

[Lucky82061]

DDP and free dining are the roots of all evil as far as WDW dining is concerned.

These ill concieved plans have led to a dummying down of WDW menus, elimination of To Go orders at many WDW restaurants, packed restaurants where ADR's are necessary 90 days or more in advance or you won't get in, a decline in service and more.

Really none of these can be disputed if you have been visiting WDW for many years.

These plans have forced the restaurants to streamline the menus to make it easy to serve, and have ended up prompting a reduction in portion size. Waiters/ waitresses are also reporting losing money because they are not tipped properly. This has resulted in a loss of staff and for those who have stayed, a declining level of service. Why work harder for the extra tip from the cheap DDP and free dining plan users?

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

What do you care? You saved a few bucks, right. :confused3

I do have to agree on some points here.. especially the streamlining of menu's that I have noticed to some extent and a reduction of portion size at many restaurants as well.

However I can't be as quick to just blame it all on the DDP as you are. Taking into account rising fuel costs, increased supply costs, increased utilities cost, wage increases, development costs, renovations.... it's impossible to clearly state that the DDP is causing the issue's with the restaurants. There have been cost cutting measure's all around WDW in the recent years. This is just a harsh reality of the world we live in now. Is the DDP to blame for the reduction of christmas decorations? Or the removal of the free picture's from MVMCP? Or the increase in park ticket prices?

While yes it can be argued (and it has been repeatedly) that the DDP is causing some restaurants to become homogenized, there are still clearly excellent dining options available outside of the DDP that have been pointed out. V&A's, BlueZoo, Bistro De Paris and Many DtD restaurants are good examples of these options.

The DDP possibly could be causing a declining level of service (although in my experience, the server's couldn't have been nicer), but for a slightly different reason. There is no debate that wait staff receive a 18% gratuity when a customer uses the DDP. Here is the problem: Tips are supposed to be provided in accordance with the level of service received. If someone knows they are going to get 18% reguardless of whether or not they provide great/good/bad/horrible service, some will probably decide it is not worth the effort to go that extra mile for a better tip.

Also, usually cash tips at restaurants are not reported to the IRS by servers and ends up being untaxed, while all credit card tips (at most places, I can not speak for every restaurant in the world obviously) are usually tallied up and provided to the employee as a paycheck. Server's generally also make $2.00/hr or so, and all tax is witheld from that check. So the DDP is probably causing server's to have to have a substantially larger amount witheld on the part of taxes than they are used to. With that being said however it is still hard to fathom that they are "losing money" by any means since generally, a server will not receive a 18% tip from every customer. Also customer's on the DDP tend to order more expensive meals since they are choosing an appetizer, entree, dessert, drinks, and in some cases alcoholic drinks as well. This will also lead to a much larger tip amount for the wait staff. I have a hard time saying that the DDP is solely causing bad service but it may be a contributing factor.

As for the last part of your tirade... I will only say this: You can not blame people for taking advantage of a program that was implemented by Disney to provide an affordable alternative to paying cash for each meal. Blame Disney, not the people who use the DDP for the program. You should be thankful that you have the CHOICE to be able to say, "I don't think I will support this program and pay cash for my meals." That single mother with 3 kids who is going to WDW for possibly the one chance in 20 years should not be insulted for attempting to make their vacation a little more affordable by trying to save some money on dining. No more on that I don't want the topic to be closed because of me...

There are lots of factors that are causing these issue's and not just the DDP... I mean Year of a Million Dreams (while being a great promotion) has to be costing Disney alot more than the DDP is... :confused3

[Lewisc]

Very well said. At least one of the "foodies" have said they don't want to patronize the blueZoo because it doesn't give a DDE discount. The fact is at least some of the posters complaining don't want to pay what it costs to provide the kind of dining experience they want.



I do have to agree on some points here.. especially the streamlining of menu's that I have noticed to some extent and a reduction of portion size at many restaurants as well.

However I can't be as quick to just blame it all on the DDP as you are. Taking into account rising fuel costs, increased supply costs, increased utilities cost, wage increases, development costs, renovations.... it's impossible to clearly state that the DDP is causing the issue's with the restaurants. There have been cost cutting measure's all around WDW in the recent years. This is just a harsh reality of the world we live in now. Is the DDP to blame for the reduction of christmas decorations? Or the removal of the free picture's from MVMCP? Or the increase in park ticket prices?

While yes it can be argued (and it has been repeatedly) that the DDP is causing some restaurants to become homogenized, there are still clearly excellent dining options available outside of the DDP that have been pointed out. V&A's, BlueZoo, Bistro De Paris and Many DtD restaurants are good examples of these options.

The DDP possibly could be causing a declining level of service (although in my experience, the server's couldn't have been nicer), but for a slightly different reason. There is no debate that wait staff receive a 18% gratuity when a customer uses the DDP. Here is the problem: Tips are supposed to be provided in accordance with the level of service received. If someone knows they are going to get 18% reguardless of whether or not they provide great/good/bad/horrible service, some will probably decide it is not worth the effort to go that extra mile for a better tip.

Also, usually cash tips at restaurants are not reported to the IRS by servers and ends up being untaxed, while all credit card tips (at most places, I can not speak for every restaurant in the world obviously) are usually tallied up and provided to the employee as a paycheck. Server's generally also make $2.00/hr or so, and all tax is witheld from that check. So the DDP is probably causing server's to have to have a substantially larger amount witheld on the part of taxes than they are used to. With that being said however it is still hard to fathom that they are "losing money" by any means since generally, a server will not receive a 18% tip from every customer. Also customer's on the DDP tend to order more expensive meals since they are choosing an appetizer, entree, dessert, drinks, and in some cases alcoholic drinks as well. This will also lead to a much larger tip amount for the wait staff. I have a hard time saying that the DDP is solely causing bad service but it may be a contributing factor.

As for the last part of your tirade... I will only say this: You can not blame people for taking advantage of a program that was implemented by Disney to provide an affordable alternative to paying cash for each meal. Blame Disney, not the people who use the DDP for the program. You should be thankful that you have the CHOICE to be able to say, "I don't think I will support this program and pay cash for my meals." That single mother with 3 kids who is going to WDW for possibly the one chance in 20 years should not be insulted for attempting to make their vacation a little more affordable by trying to save some money on dining. No more on that I don't want the topic to be closed because of me...

There are lots of factors that are causing these issue's and not just the DDP... I mean Year of a Million Dreams (while being a great promotion) has to be costing Disney alot more than the DDP is... :confused3

[dumbo71]

Isn't this the same poster who was over on the DVC boards telling everyone that DVC has gone way downhill because he got a letter from them warning him about his commercial renting habits? I'm not sure I've ever seen a post from this person that hasn't been directed at stirring up crap.



Thanks for the kind words. :thumbsup2

All you have to do is check all of my posts. Some are very harsh for sure but I see nothing wrong with providing a different perspective. You don't agree, well voice that. Sitting there speculating about my motives is just plain silly.

My motive is simple. As a DVC owner since 1992, I spend a great deal of time at WDW. On average I would say 3 weeks per year. In the past few years I've seen first hand a significant decline at WDW. I find that concerning. Not only does it potentially devalue my ownership if this continues it greatly impacts my enjoyment during my stays.

Here is a couple of examples: 1) While staying at BCV, we spent a day at the pool relaxing and enjoying the waterslides. Time for some lunch. My wife is a vegetarian so we have always ordered the garden burger from Beaches and Cream, go it from the To Go section and sit out by the pool at a table and eat. This is convenient and easy on my son as well. Well I go in to order and they tell me they now ONLY do ice cream to go. NOW WHAT! We have to go back to the room clean up, dry off and go inside to Beaches and Cream to eat. When we return there is a 30 minute wait. :furious:

Example 2: We are at OKW and after a long tiring day we come home and want to unwind in our condo. I tell my wife "don't worry about cooking" (we hadn't planed anything either). I'll order food TO GO from Olivias. I walk over to order figuring I'll just have a beer while I wait. I am then told sorry under NO circumstances do we do TO GO orders. I speak to the manager only to be told that it was a higher up decision directly related to the DDP DO YOU HEAR THAT LEWISC WITH ALL OF YOUR SPECULATIVE POSTS< DDP!
Now what????????? My familyis hungry and it is late. My son wants to eat and go to bed. We want some time alone. Sorry we have to drag evryone out to eat. NONSENSE.

These changes are impacting guest stays and that is wrong.

Lewisc is simply WRONG. I've done the leg work and actually spoken to employees, managers, chefs throughout WDW. Unanimously I've been told cuts are directly related to DDP and free dining. I've also been told there is no doubt that the guest experience has suffered from poor service and the loss of atmosphere with the packed restaurants.

[Chuck S]

I'm sure the DDP bears some, but probably not all, the responsibility for the streamlined menus. Post 9-11 tourism is finally starting to rebound, travel is up. I do not think Disney foresaw the popularity of the current (separately priced) dining plan as opposed to the way it was previously offered as part of a full travel package. That lack of foresight, along with increased travel, means that the restaurants have to have less specialized menus that can be prepared more quickly to satisfy the sheer number of guests, and enable them to more quickly "turn a table."

Plus, they are trying to maintain a sense of "value" for Disney as a total destination, thus leading to the need to have less prep time/kitchen personnel and somewhat less expensive offerings in general. While I do not like the current trend that the general dining at Disney seems to be taking, there are still some enjoyable experiences. Hollywood Brown Derby, breakfast at Olivia's (while I'm not too happy with the lunch and dinner menu changes), and Chefs de France were still highlights of our trip. And for non-park counter service, we enjoy the varied selection at POP.

We were quite disappointed, however, in the changes at Tony's Town Square. While the menu items pretty much "reads" the same, the pasta primavera, which used to be one of our favorites, was awful. It used to have fresh spinach and other tasty veggies. It has changed, it now has a heavy balsamic sauce with few fresh veggies, not tasty at all. :( However, I saw little in the way of fresh spinach used at WDW this trip...perhaps still fallout from the ecoli problem earlier this year? Disney takes a while to re-instate items (like the spinach) after a scare as some guests may still "have a problem" being comfortable with it on the menu.

BTW, I do understand the no "to go" orders being tied to the DDP. How many people would want the TS "to go" order for a Counter Service credit, as a to go order does not involve actual "table service?" I may not be happy with it, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.

[themudd4]

There are lots of factors that are causing these issue's and not just the DDP... I mean Year of a Million Dreams (while being a great promotion) has to be costing Disney alot more than the DDP is... :confused3

And let me be the first to say I will glady be the blame for that...PICK ME...make my dreams come true!

[MainStMandy]

Thanks for the kind words. :thumbsup2

All you have to do is check all of my posts. Some are very harsh for sure but I see nothing wrong with providing a different perspective. You don't agree, well voice that. Sitting there speculating about my motives is just plain silly.

My motive is simple. As a DVC owner since 1992, I spend a great deal of time at WDW. On average I would say 3 weeks per year. In the past few years I've seen first hand a significant decline at WDW. I find that concerning. Not only does it potentially devalue my ownership if this continues it greatly impacts my enjoyment during my stays.

Here is a couple of examples: 1) While staying at BCV, we spent a day at the pool relaxing and enjoying the waterslides. Time for some lunch. My wife is a vegetarian so we have always ordered the garden burger from Beaches and Cream, go it from the To Go section and sit out by the pool at a table and eat. This is convenient and easy on my son as well. Well I go in to order and they tell me they now ONLY do ice cream to go. NOW WHAT! We have to go back to the room clean up, dry off and go inside to Beaches and Cream to eat. When we return there is a 30 minute wait. :furious:

Example 2: We are at OKW and after a long tiring day we come home and want to unwind in our condo. I tell my wife "don't worry about cooking" (we hadn't planed anything either). I'll order food TO GO from Olivias. I walk over to order figuring I'll just have a beer while I wait. I am then told sorry under NO circumstances do we do TO GO orders. I speak to the manager only to be told that it was a higher up decision directly related to the DDP DO YOU HEAR THAT LEWISC WITH ALL OF YOUR SPECULATIVE POSTS< DDP!
Now what????????? My familyis hungry and it is late. My son wants to eat and go to bed. We want some time alone. Sorry we have to drag evryone out to eat. NONSENSE.

These changes are impacting guest stays and that is wrong.

Lewisc is simply WRONG. I've done the leg work and actually spoken to employees, managers, chefs throughout WDW. Unanimously I've been told cuts are directly related to DDP and free dining. I've also been told there is no doubt that the guest experience has suffered from poor service and the loss of atmosphere with the packed restaurants.


So your definition of significant decline is that restaurants aren't offering to go options anymore??? I can understand not being "happy" about that, but I wouldn't call that a decline...that's what CS is for.

[jodifla]

So your definition of significant decline is that restaurants aren't offering to go options anymore??? I can understand not being "happy" about that, but I wouldn't call that a decline...that's what CS is for.


At OKW, there is extremely limited counter service, AND THAT"S THE PROBLEM.

[MainStMandy]

At OKW, there is extremely limited counter service, AND THAT"S THE PROBLEM.

That's not what the OP stated....They said that there is a significant decline at WDW (not at OKW specifically) and then used as examples two restaurants that no long allow To Go....

[jodifla]

That's not what the OP stated....They said that there is a significant decline at WDW (not at OKW specifically) and then used as examples two restaurants that no long allow To Go....


IMO, OP is completely accurate. THe DDP is having a profound effect on Disney dining, most of it bad.

The OKW to-go debacle is only the tip of the iceberg. Then when you go in, you find that the most interesting things have been yanked off the menu. There have been report after report about the declining service throughout WDW (although, much of it is still good).

There's no free lunch. All the "deals" people are getting on the DDP are causing them to slash the quality of the food.

Most people won't realize until it's too late, and most of the quality has been drained out of the WDW system. So, when they are sitting there looking at their TS 2credit meal of iceberg lettuce, baked chicken and sugar-free jell-o, all for the bargain price of $38, maybe THEN the lightbult will switch on in their head.

After years of flawless service and food at Yachtmen, in May I had a prime rib there that was not even worthy of Ponderosa. I didn't complain....but I darn sure from now on.

[Lewisc]

At OKW, there is extremely limited counter service, AND THAT"S THE PROBLEM.

I'll agree with that point. The counter service/food courts are limited in the deluxe hotels. Deluxe hotels generally offer in room dining to accommodate guests who want to eat in their room but are looking for more than a burger.

To go may have filled that limited need but I doubt Olivia's can't handle the potential demand of DDP guests. Nothing to do with what the restaurant is getting paid but an issue of volume. Same thing would have happened if "to go" became popular for other reasons.

I don't know if there is enough demand but offering the food from Olivia's for "in room dining" might be a compromise. You'd have to pay the delivery charges and DDP guests would be charged two credits. Both would limit demand.
TS 2credit meal of iceberg lettuce, baked chicken and sugar-free jell-o, all for the bargain price of $38

That's a one credit kids meal, cost is around $11 /credit. That credit also includes a snack worth $3-$5 and a CS meal.

Disney likes having full restaurants. Without DDP they would have done some other promotion so the offerings/price better reflect what customers are looking for. The food at LTT isn't great but I don't remember it being any better prior to the DDP. I'm talking about the quality of the "fresh turkey".

[Sammie]

It is all personal prespective. Some items have been removed. Some miss them, many don't. The majority rules in all things, and I am sure in this case too. Take out at Oliva's was removed due to abuse by guests. Some can blame the DDP for that, others can blame the abusers. Neither are wrong.

Problem is a few people want to dictate what is good for all. And when you don't agree with that, they insult you. I can't support anyone's opinion when the only way they can make a point is to insult someone that has a different opinion.

LewisC and I have many times disagreed and we have been able to refrain from insulting each other and have a mutual respect for the other's opinions. However there are a couple of people in this discussion that lately they seem to thrive on insulting anyone that disagrees the DDP is the root of world evil.

I like the DDP, I am not ashamed of that and I am entitled to like it just as much as anyone dislikes it. In the heart of Christmas spirit I however will refrain from name calling those that dislike it so.

Merry Christmas everyone.

[jodifla]

That's a one credit kids meal, cost is around $11 /credit. That credit also includes a snack worth $3-$5 and a CS meal.

.


I was projecting a bit...because I think that's where DDP TS adult meals are heading in a hurry.

[jessica52877]

Disney offers the dining plan for a reason. I do not believe you can sit here and say that it was a horrible decision for disney, if it was, it would be discontinued and surely not offered over and over for free. We have now gone for a week twice, both during free dining, before that we never went longer then a long weekend. My son is almost 4 and this is where he asks to go, because we have seen how much fun and how affordable disney can be for a week, we do it.

The wait staff is getting their tip still and honestly more then I would EVER tip at a buffet. I don't think filling my drink and clearing my plate once is worth $20, or 18% tip at all and don't tip that way at buffets.

As for not being able to walk into a restaurant, yes, it is frustrating, but like other posters have said, I have found plenty of options the morning of or even when we wanted to eat. The key is to be flexible, which I am. It seems others aren't so flexible and that is where the problem arrises. I do not enjoy planning where I'll eat 180 days out, but I do and I change it as necessary. Vacation is supposed to be relaxing therefore I will not run around to eat somewhere specific, instead I will check my options.

I feel as if disney is now filling there dining rooms which is good for disney. I honestly have never cared much for disney food and to be cruise food is even worse. But I have to take into account that they are serving hundreds and hundreds of people daily!

Around here I can't walk into a restaurant and not expect a wait, so why should I expect it somewhere else. To each their own! Have a disney day!

[ransom]

Our first experience with Disney dining was last week, Dec 8-16.

We ate at Roaring Fork for breakfast most days, but also had an ADR for Whispering Canyon one day and one for Crystal Palace another day. Most lunches were counter service at whatever park we were at that day. Dinners were ADRs at resorts, except for the Fantasmic! package that included dinner at Mama Malrose's.

We had dinners at Whispering Canyon, Concourse Steakhouse, Artist Point, San Angel Inn, California Grill, Mama Melrose's, Rose and Crown, and Grand Floridian Cafe.

We enjoyed them all. The least of our dinner experiences were on par with a chain restaurant, but the best were truly wonderful. Presentation was always excellent and appropriate to the restaurant. The wait staff were always friendly. We were always seated quickly, and were never made to feel rushed.

The only quibbles we have are that it would have been nice if San Angel had more regional dishes, and if California Grill had been offering lobster. But every menu had at least two dishes from which it was hard to choose, so we can't really complain about the choices we were offered.

Oh, and as for getting ADRs in advance, we walked into Prime Time Cafe at 11 AM on Wednesday the 13th. We had no ADR, but we were seated immediately. I doubt we'd have been able to do that at 12, or even at 11:30, and that's why we made sure to get there early. We were very happy to get a table there without an ADR, and it was one of the (many, many) highlights of our trip.

So, the dining plan was great for us. That was our experience as first-timers anyway. If we went back every few months for several years, I'm sure we'd be sick of the food. But for us, it worked out very nicely indeed (and I didn't even mention how many hundreds of dollars we saved on the plan).

[Lewisc]

I was projecting a bit...because I think that's where DDP TS adult meals are heading in a hurry.

The prior, low cost meal plan, became a flop when it became nothing more than a pre-paid discount deal.

Disney can certainly lower the meals to the level you're projecting BUT they'll then have to offer the dining plan for free 365 days a year.

You still haven't answered my question. What's wrong with just dining at blueZoo, Shula's, Bistro, Fulton's, V&A etc? Those restaurants charge whatever is necessary to serve the level of food they think their customers are willing to purchase.

I have no doubt Disney would have excluded a couple of restaurants if they thought there were enough customers willing to pay $75-$100 /head (after any discounts).

[ntsammy5]

We have used the DDP twice. Once we paid and once it was free (well not really free, but almost).

We've been going to WDW for years and we have eaten at most of the TS restaurants at least once. We have noticed a slight degradation in the choices but definitely no degradation in the food quality or service.

I think the DDP is a great bargain and offers those who want it an opportunity to eat at some vary nice restaurants for a reasonable price. Having said that, I'm not sure we will use it again soon, because our entire vacation revolves around eating when we've had the DDP.

I can make my own ADRs and pay OOP when we go next in 2007 for the restaurants we really want to eat at. Nothing against the DDP or those who use it, but frankly I can't eat that much.

By the way, for those saying that there are few walk ups available, when we were at the World the end of September we ate at Le Cellier, one of the hardest to get an ADR and we saw 3 walk ups of 4 each! Go figure.....

[dumbo71]

I'm sure the DDP bears some, but probably not all, the responsibility for the streamlined menus. Post 9-11 tourism is finally starting to rebound, travel is up. I do not think Disney foresaw the popularity of the current (separately priced) dining plan as opposed to the way it was previously offered as part of a full travel package. That lack of foresight, along with increased travel, means that the restaurants have to have less specialized menus that can be prepared more quickly to satisfy the sheer number of guests, and enable them to more quickly "turn a table."

Plus, they are trying to maintain a sense of "value" for Disney as a total destination, thus leading to the need to have less prep time/kitchen personnel and somewhat less expensive offerings in general. While I do not like the current trend that the general dining at Disney seems to be taking, there are still some enjoyable experiences. Hollywood Brown Derby, breakfast at Olivia's (while I'm not too happy with the lunch and dinner menu changes), and Chefs de France were still highlights of our trip. And for non-park counter service, we enjoy the varied selection at POP.

We were quite disappointed, however, in the changes at Tony's Town Square. While the menu items pretty much "reads" the same, the pasta primavera, which used to be one of our favorites, was awful. It used to have fresh spinach and other tasty veggies. It has changed, it now has a heavy balsamic sauce with few fresh veggies, not tasty at all. :( However, I saw little in the way of fresh spinach used at WDW this trip...perhaps still fallout from the ecoli problem earlier this year? Disney takes a while to re-instate items (like the spinach) after a scare as some guests may still "have a problem" being comfortable with it on the menu.

BTW, I do understand the no "to go" orders being tied to the DDP. How many people would want the TS "to go" order for a Counter Service credit, as a to go order does not involve actual "table service?" I may not be happy with it, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.


Chuck is a much more sensible and obviously more reasonable guy than I am.

If I'm reading his post correctly he is agreeing with almost everything I've posted here.

Now Sammy alludes to name calling? Where? My argument is posted strongly but fairly.

[dumbo71]

So your definition of significant decline is that restaurants aren't offering to go options anymore??? I can understand not being "happy" about that, but I wouldn't call that a decline...that's what CS is for.

My definition of decline includes all of the things I've mentioned. Loss of To GO options, ( CS and TO GO are two different things. Why should I be forced to eat CS garbage?), removal of many items on menus to streamline costs, poor service due to the lack of incentive for a good tip and simply being too busy, reduced portion sizes, etc.

Why defend the plan? If you like it show WDW by using it.

WDW is the real problem here not the customers saving money with the plan. THey lacked the foresight of the problems asociated with the plan. As the former owner of three highly succesful restaurasnts they should have consulted someone who knows what they were doing. These problems were easily forecast.

This plan will be drastically altered or removed IMO, so enjoy while it lasts. Thewy are losing money by the day as it stands.

[SoarinJ]

Why defend the plan? If you like it show WDW by using it.

I do, many others do as well. If you don't like it, please don't use it.




This plan will be drastically altered or removed IMO, so enjoy while it lasts. Thewy are losing money by the day as it stands.

Do you have any statistics to back this up? The articles I read (I will have to search for them) showed occupancy rates on the rise and per guest spending up as well. The point of offering the DDP and Magical Express was to keep all the spending - tockets, lodging, food, gifts, entertainment on site - and it is working.

In God we may trust, all others, please bring data.

[Chuck S]

Chuck is a much more sensible and obviously more reasonable guy than I am.

If I'm reading his post correctly he is agreeing with almost everything I've posted here.

Now Sammy alludes to name calling? Where? My argument is posted strongly but fairly.

Actually, no. I'm agreeing menus have changed in many cases. I'm NOT agreeing that the DDP is solely, or even mostly, responsible for those changes, that many factors play a role in this type of decision.

I'm also not saying that most Disney restaurants have taken a turn for the worse, many (especially the "signature" venues) are still very good experiences, and have well prepared food...some are not so great, like our recent experience at Tony's, or Olivia's for lunch/dinner. BTW, we also had lunch at Concourse Steak House, we had not eaten there for years, and the hamburger was delicious, though had a little too much blue cheese (and I like blue cheese.) We never received "poor service" from the servers, even at Tony's.

Remember, that for sheer numbers, Disney restaurants run literally at least a few thousand people through in a day. To accomodate those numbers, food can't be too complicated/time consuming to prepare and this also imposes limits on the menu offerings and leads to overall menu standardization. Some restaurants still have some tasty non-standard offerings. Add to that the ability to prepare limited "last minute" items to accomodate personal tastes and food allergies, and overall I think Disney does a good job trying to please everyone.

I do miss the "to go" options at resort full service restaurants, but understand the reason for the rule. I don't know if park restaurants ever offered "to go" as there is no way to properly store the food and insure its safety with no refrigeration.

OKW never had much in the way of counter service, which is why it was nice to have Olivia's offer the "to go" option in the past. Now that that option is gone, we eat more off-site or drive over to POP for their food court selections, as we prefer our "big meal" at lunch and a lighter dinner.

[Lucky82061]

Why defend the plan? If you like it show WDW by using it.

WDW is the real problem here not the customers saving money with the plan. THey lacked the foresight of the problems asociated with the plan. As the former owner of three highly succesful restaurasnts they should have consulted someone who knows what they were doing. These problems were easily forecast.

Now you say this... and in the beginning you said...

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

What do you care? You saved a few bucks, right.

So blame the user's and insult them... but tell them to use it instead of debating the points with you? :confused3

So I assume by what you are saying, that IF the DDP was absolved right this second and no longer offered, everything would return to what it was? You mean the corporate office wouldn't want to just keep things the way they are and keep the increased profit margin.. and now without having to provide any service in return??

They knew what they were doing. They increased onsite visitors. They put more bodies in rooms at slower times of the year. They hooked families into staying on longer trips by the MYW pricing. They added the DDP so people would stay on-site at all times, which leads to increased spending on souveneirs/gifts/etc. Love or hate the DDP, it is doing what it was meant to do.

[Lewisc]

Actually Disney forecast the problem with free dining, not enough restaurant capacity to handle the number of guests who had dining packages.

Disney had the foresight to solve the problem. Some restaurants, like Boma, extended their dinner hours. Other restaurants, like Chef Mickey's, added lunch. Disney added a temporary TS restaurant in the MK. Disney allowed guests to trade in TS credits for CS meals, some guests liked that option. Finally Disney decided to allow guests to use their credits for in room dining.

The food at Chef Mickey's, LTT and Tony's wasn't that great before the dining plan. Long before the dining plan I was served a raw chop at Tony's, the "chef" thought they were pre-cooked and only had to browned.

You're not forced to eat "CS garbage" but TS restaurants are now just that TABLE SERVICE not take out. Blame Disney/DVC for not putting the kind of CS restaurant that serves food you want to eat in OKW.

The number of posters reporting bad service is very low.

I haven't read any reports that suggest Disney is losing money with dining. The plan currently allocates around $26/ adult TS credit. LTT costs $27.99. A guest with the DDE card pays $22. Add the tip and it's a wash. I think the CS credit allocates around $8-$10. The majority of CS restaurants cost around that for a combo. The guest is getting a free dessert, maybe free fries and/or a drink.

If you believe the internet every CS credit is being used at the Pepper Market and every TS is being maxed out at Le Cellier or Chefs de France. Assume an "average guest" eats at "average restaurants" and the savings is a little more than the 20% DDE, with tax and some snacks thrown in.

The DDP is a good plan for the customer but not so good that Disney is losing money with it.


My definition of decline includes all of the things I've mentioned. Loss of To GO options, ( CS and TO GO are two different things. Why should I be forced to eat CS garbage?), removal of many items on menus to streamline costs, poor service due to the lack of incentive for a good tip and simply being too busy, reduced portion sizes, etc.

Why defend the plan? If you like it show WDW by using it.

WDW is the real problem here not the customers saving money with the plan. THey lacked the foresight of the problems asociated with the plan. As the former owner of three highly succesful restaurasnts they should have consulted someone who knows what they were doing. These problems were easily forecast.

This plan will be drastically altered or removed IMO, so enjoy while it lasts. Thewy are losing money by the day as it stands.

[dumbo71]

Now you say this... and in the beginning you said...



So blame the user's and insult them... but tell them to use it instead of debating the points with you? :confused3

So I assume by what you are saying, that IF the DDP was absolved right this second and no longer offered, everything would return to what it was? You mean the corporate office wouldn't want to just keep things the way they are and keep the increased profit margin.. and now without having to provide any service in return??

They knew what they were doing. They increased onsite visitors. They put more bodies in rooms at slower times of the year. They hooked families into staying on longer trips by the MYW pricing. They added the DDP so people would stay on-site at all times, which leads to increased spending on souveneirs/gifts/etc. Love or hate the DDP, it is doing what it was meant to do.



Just because DDP is doing what was designed, does not mean those things are for the better.

You ask if things would return to pre -DDP status if the plan was removed? Not immediately, but yes, we would see the creative Chefs at WDW allowed to be, well, creative.

We would also see guests not have to plan 180 days in advance to go to WDW restaurants.

Service workers would have to earn that 18% tip.

TO GO orders could be started again immediately.

Lewisc seems to be the dining expert here. I was wondering if he would be so kind as to provide a list of restaurants at WDW that DO NOT participate with the DDP and free dining? Those restaurants , I'll support.

Yes, things would get better, some immediately.

[DisneyKidds]

This plan will be drastically altered or removed IMO, so enjoy while it lasts. Thewy are losing money by the day as it stands.
On what are you basing the "losing money by the day" conclusion? On the last day of our last trip when we ate $150 worth of food (as measured by the bills) when the plan only cost us $100 for the day? Did Disney lose $50?

Disney isn't that stupid, and the reality isn't as simple as that.

For starters you have the room. Let's say for arguments sake that we were staying at the GF, where I used to be able to get a discounted rate of $300 a night, but to get the plan I booked at a rate of $450. Well, right there Disney more than made up the $50 in revenue they "lost" on the DDP they offered me.

Of course, they didn't actually lose anything on the DDP that I saved so much on. At most sit down restaurants, the actual cost of food is about a third of the set menu price. A little more for high quality fine dining places, but a whole lot less on a counter service meal. Fixed overhead and service costs run about a third as well. So the cost to Disney to provide me the food and the labor and overhead to serve it was most likely around $100 or so. On a cost basis Disney is probably close to breaking even on the dining plan.......but don't forget that extra $150 in revenue they got on the room.

Disney isn't losing money, and to be honest the guests aren't necessarily saving all that much. It's a bit of a shell game, with a little marketing perception thrown in.

Free dining is actually a very good deal on which Disney is losing some margin, but they have an awful lot of fixed overhead that isn't helped by empty rooms in the off months.

So I don't think Disney is losing as much as you think they are, if anything at all. However, I still think that, as a long term strategy, using a gimmick to prop up inflated prices is a flawed strategy.

[Lewisc]

http://adisneyworld.disney.go.com/media/wdw/images2003/languagespecific/eng/nontheme/tickets/07Dining.pdf

is a link to the 2007 brochure. It lists the participating restaurants.

Non-participating restaurants include V&A, blueZoo, Shula's, Il Mulino, WGP Upstairs Dining, Fulton's, Portobello Yacht Club, House of Blues and Bongos. Bistro de Paris in EPCOT also doesn't participate. Beaches and Cream is a TS restaurant under the dining plan. It's probably the worse bang for the buck, most DDP customers will pay out of pocket. Any changes at that restaurant have nothing to do with the dining plan.

"Free dining" doesn't change the plan, the guest is given free dining instead of the deep room discounts that were otherwise offered during the hurricane season.

The current dining program has shown that guests will fill the restaurants if the price is right. Now if the non-participating restaurants at S/D, experience high bookings, from guests willing to pay for the kind of dining experience you're looking for Disney might drop one or two signature restaurants from the plan. The GF has a buffet, a one credit TS restaurants and 2 signature restaurants. They could easily drop one of the signature restaurants from the plan but I doubt they could increase the price enough to compensate for the reduced volume.


You keep talking about the old days where guests didn't have to plan 180 days in advance. Why do you keep posting wrong information? CRT, Chef Mickey's and Le Cellier were just as hard to get ADRs prior to the current dining plan. You used to be able to book dinner shows 2 years in advance, it's now 6 months.

The present "bean counters" want more uniformity with the restaurants. I don't see "TO GO" coming back with or without the DDP. The DDP is a good excuse for getting rid of "TO GO" but there isn't any reason why the DDP has to include TO GO (the Spoodles window is no longer included) or why we think DDP guests are going to spend a TS credit on a meal they're going to eat in their room.




Just because DDP is doing what was designed, does not mean those things are for the better.

You ask if things would return to pre -DDP status if the plan was removed? Not immediately, but yes, we would see the creative Chefs at WDW allowed to be, well, creative.

We would also see guests not have to plan 180 days in advance to go to WDW restaurants.

Service workers would have to earn that 18% tip.

TO GO orders could be started again immediately.

Lewisc seems to be the dining expert here. I was wondering if he would be so kind as to provide a list of restaurants at WDW that DO NOT participate with the DDP and free dining? Those restaurants , I'll support.

Yes, things would get better, some immediately.

[Sammie]

Thank you to all of the DDP and free dining users. You have helped ruin dining at WDW and things will only get worse.

When you blame what you don't like about Disney on others, that to me is name calling. Blame Disney if you want to but it is insulting to blame others.

Maybe if you and others upset over the changes had kept the restaurants full then the things you like to eat would not have been removed from the menu. Obviously Disney needed a way to keep restaurants full and people purchasing what was on the menu. I seriously doubt they would have offered the plan if the menu items that have been removed were being ordered often and restaurants were staying packed. So I guess you contributed to the changes also.

[dwdeb]

We don't use DDP for our family of 3 . Pay out of pocket using DDE.
However, we have noticed the decline in the quality of food over the last year. Portions aren't as much an issue as much as preperation, taste, and extras; like bread served before dinner(charging for it). This happened at a few restaurants.
Servers have said alot of these changes were because of DDP.
Interesting...
Deb

[DCDisney]

I really think that's why they took the salmon off the menu at Sci-Fi which bugs me because it's something my husband liked. I think that families who can't afford salmon should still go to Disney but order entrees that are less expensive.

I'm sad about the salmon too because it's an easy thing to order plain for people like me with food allergies and I think the tofu they subbed for it has a very limited appeal. BUT in terms of price and easy of cooking personally I think salmon is probably cheaper. I get salmon at our grocery often for less than boneless chicken.

Yvonne

[jodifla]

You keep talking about the old days where guests didn't have to plan 180 days in advance. Why do you keep posting wrong information? CRT, Chef Mickey's and Le Cellier were just as hard to get ADRs prior to the current dining plan. You used to be able to book dinner shows 2 years in advance, it's now 6 months.

You are the one with the wrong info. True, Cindy's has always been hard to get. But Le Cellier and Chef Mickey's could easily be made the month before, and often the week before, as late as last year.

And again, we have more people like dwdeb noticing the quality drop and talking to the servers, who blame the DDP. When will you acknowledge the obvious?

[Peter Pirate 2]

A certain group will never acknowledge the obvious in this issue jodifla, as it isn't of interest to them. If the food is "just good enough" that will satisfy those looking for cost benefit or to those who are newbies. Some of the others see us locals as the greedy badguys who are jaded because of those awesome deals Disney gives us :rolleyes: .

I understand LewisC's position in that there are still a number of great restaurants that can appeal to "foodies", but those are all chains and, for me, I liked the innovativeness of the GREAT Disney chef's in their themed environments. To this we are losing ground fast. FF lost it's chef to CG who lost their chef due to these cutbacks...The point is FF has not replaced him. Why?

The sad thing that we who miss the greatness of past Disney dining is that the slippery slope leads to a very bad place, IMO. What happens when the cost cutting reaches a level that even ddp proponents stop enjoying it? Will they be able to go back? Doubtful. Chances are it will entail more and more franchising. It'll be fine but never reach the level Disney had achieved I doubt. They'll need the Chili's, Outbacks and Olive Gardens to please the masses I'm afraid.

Oh well. I'm sure this will get construed in a negative manner and it's too bad because I have no problem with a ddp, I just wish Disney would use their wisdom and make it palatable for everyone.

[housecat]

Susan,

No need for a flame suit at all. Valid point.

I'm not expecting gourmet food at WDW. All I'm expecting is the same quality, choices, TO GO orders, and service that we received before the dining plan. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not looking for culture either. We go to Europe for that or some of the finer US cities.

The declining standards at WDW should be a concern to all.

Wow, your screen name really suits you. LOL at this thread...who cares if you plan to dine offsite? I'm sure Disney won't mind...the DDP has made many patrons very happy, and in turn Disney has MADE money off of it. Many consumers are very happy with the quality of the food, and lots of us tip extra over the 18%. By all means, dine off-site if that's what you want to do...I'm sure Disney will get over it. :wave2:

[susan1]

Wow, your screen name really suits you. LOL at this thread...who cares if you plan to dine offsite? I'm sure Disney won't mind...the DDP has made many patrons very happy, and in turn Disney has MADE money off of it. Many consumers are very happy with the quality of the food, and lots of us tip extra over the 18%. By all means, dine off-site if that's what you want to do...I'm sure Disney will get over it. :wave2:

what a horrible name calling post, just because the poster answered my question in a civilised manner. i thank god that i stay off site and eat in the lmany splendid areas around orlando. the whole "live the disney experience" fills me with forboding, as i said it is a theme park where eateries and patrons have delusions of grandeur. i am sure no one will miss us but i suspect the wheel will turn and people will be sick to death of being cocooned in disney. the ammount of people staying in villas is increasing steadily.

[Uncleromulus]

This thread has gotten out of hand what with the name calling, etc.