Fate of the Moderate Resorts?

[barreloflaughs]

Folks,

I found the following on another discussion group. While most of this has been discussed here, I don't recall seeing the Coronado Springs rumor. The source mentions that all of these actions were in planning pre-September 11. Interesting....

*****************************************
PO French Quarter - Will become Shades of Green II

PO Riverside - will be acquired by DCL and will be used by guests sailing on their Cruise ships only.

Coronado Springs - Will be sold to Marriot.

This would leave Caribbean Beach as the only Disney owned Moderate resort.
********************************************

barrel of laughs

[JeffJewell]

The source mentions that all of these actions were in planning pre-September 11. ...this jives with what I've heard.

Jeff

[YoHo]

What I've heard and What has been posted is that french quarter will be Temporarily turned into Shades of Green While SoG undergoes construction. Personally, I wouldn't have a major problem with this resort staying shhades of Green.

PO Riverside is Closing Jan 1 for an unknown period of time.

Coronado Springs, aside from certain buildings closing, no word.

I've said it before, I think that the moderates are the least financially sound resorts Disney offers. The margins are bad. If the Scenario outlined by barreloflaughs is true, then I would hope that Carribean is turned into a Deluxe and be done with the moderates entirely.

[All Aboard]

YoHo, how do you turn CBR into a deluxe? With 320 sf rooms, no balconies and exterior entries that seems impossible. Also, I'm not so sure that the margins are all that bad at the moderates. There really isn't much in the way of services above that at the Values. All the capital costs are (of course) sunk at this point. I'm not sure you could outline a scenario where they close completely that makes sense. Assuming occupancies return to normal, WDW needs that niche of $125 rooms to cater to a very large segment of the market. They don't suffer for guests. In normal operating times, the moderates fill up fast.

[Planogirl]

I don't understand this. Frankly, the deluxes are too expensive for me most of the time and I don't like the Allstars. There I've said it. ;) So what does that leave? I can't believe that I'm the only person who feels like this.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I can't believe that I'm the only person who feels like this.Hmmm. Maybe you haven't caught my posts on the subject. Or JJ's.

Say, did I ever mention the caste system that these resorts encourage? :crazy:

[Lesley]

PG, you're not the only one! Heck, I spent 4 nights tent camping at FW while 5 1/2 months pregnant to avoid the All-Stars (and so we could spend the rest of our "budget trip" at CS). But that's also part of the reason we joined DVC. I really would love to stay at a deluxe every time (and now I will) but with cash rates around $300 per night and up? EEEEEKKKK!

Not sure how CBR could go deluxe, but I believe the rooms are the same size as WL.....biggest of the moderates. With certain upgrades to the resort...maybe.....start by returning the mini-bars to the rooms, offer real room service, turn the restaurant into something really special, and create a pool that makes SAB look like just another place to swim (let's see....how about one that connects all the "quiet pools", theme each one to a different variation of Carribean/pirates...caves, sand...Wow...and the pool at CBR is already my ds's favorite) Maybe....but I doubt it. I also doubt the rumor about CS...but who knows?

I do know my dh and I have always wanted to try PO/DxL and didn't get around to it.....and I know we've each said at least once "It's not like they are gonna be closed any time soon" Truly, anything's possible.

[MickeyMoose15]

Sounds a little :crazy: but also a little stupid. Where did this come from?

[Planogirl]

Landbaron, I was really referring to the mass of guests that aren't as devoted as we are and don't post on Disney boards when I was mulling over the possible demise of the moderates. I apologize for the way it sounded, you and the others here have definitely made your feelings clear! ;)

I was thinking about casual travelers looking into a trip to WDW and finding only deluxes and the Allstars. They might be appalled by the prices of the deluxes particularly if they don't know how to find discounts. Then they might check out the Allstars and feel disappointed by the lack of restaurants and other amenities. From the outside, the Allstars don't appear to have the amenities of a basic Holiday Inn so why would a casual traveler be interested in staying there without a cut rate price?

Lesley, your post made me smile. Did you really camp? Wow! :)

I don't believe that any of this can really happen any more than I believe that Disney would close one of their more popular resorts! :confused:

[seashoreCM]

>>> I've said it before, [I] think that the moderates are the least financially sound resorts ...

I would have thought that people on average spend little time about the resort, so those who book a moderate are paying a lot more dollars for about the same amenities [read: Disney's profit margin is higher at a moderate and people are paying for the cosmetics]. There may be more decorations at a moderate resort but a room is a room. Bus service at the All Stars is as good as any resort.

[YoHo]

Here's my thinking, The Deluxe resorts are designed for people who value the full Disney Resort Vacation. The people who might spend nearly as much time at the Resorts as they do at the parks. The Values are Designed for people who think that WDW is only the Parks. What are the Moderates Designed for? The middle? But they do neither well. They don't have the amenities or the locations, yet they have the resturants and themeing to demand too high a price for the room. Drop the price of the Deluxes by $50 bucks a night and the moderates would be gone.

[Planogirl]

I can see that if the prices for the deluxes drop that that would persuade more people to stay in them. I also think that Disney building all of the things we want is just as likely. :rolleyes: I disagree that the deluxes are just for those travelers who want the full Disney experience. A traveller must also be able to AFFORD these resorts. If a person doesn't have the money, it's irrelevant what they want.

I also don't agree that the moderates don't have enough amenities. The moderates are what a budget hotel should be IMO while the Allstars are just too stripped down and not very well themed. I personally want a real restaurant available because we do use them. I also like having a pool slide and a club and boats and more space and so on. I spent an enormous amount of time in Holiday Inn and Howard Johnson hotels while growing up and I expect at least amenities comparable to these chains.

I also think that the moderates are nicely themed. I just can't get into the theming of the Allstars as cute as the icons are. Dixie Landings (still MY name!) is just a lovely place and I enjoyed strolling the grounds each evening when we stayed there. I truly spent a lot of time enjoying this resort. CBR is very attractive and I can see why so many people like CSR. The Allstars are just not like that IMO.

This is just my opinion though and maybe MOST people don't see it this way. :)

[Luv2Roam]

I agree with what you posted about values vs deluxe. At WDW and DL, DH and I were at the parks from opening to closing. And all we need the room for is shower and rest. So yes, a deluxe would be nice. But then I would feel like I have to stay there all day to get my $ worth.
I am wondering how the on-site hotels are doing at DL.
The nearby hotels surrounding DL/DCA are a bargain, when comparing to DL hotels. Everything is within walking distance, the hotels are nice with plenty of free perks, that Disney charges for. And we even stayed right across the street at a nice hotel for $54 a night. DL hotels were offering $200 a night at that time, and acting they were doing guests a favor. :rolleyes:
I can buy a lot of Disney magic on my own for $145 savings a night.
I was surprised that Disney charged so much for their rooms when they are surrounded by nice hotels.

[Lesley]

Yes, we really did camp! And let me tell you, a 2" thick Thermarest mattress is not what you want to sleep on after a day in the parks.....especially when you've got those hip joints getting all loose in preparation for birth. My hips were sore for the rest of the trip.

I would camp there again....but if I were doing the parks I'd be sure to bring a cot or a really good thick air mattress! Never in my life did a bed feel so good as when we got to CS!

And just for the "what in the heck was she thinking?" file....well....I thought it would be an adventure! I'm a country girl who never really camped before that year (why camp when the house is right there?...lol) And I also wasn't expecting to get pregnant at the time the plans were made. And when I did discover I was pregnant I didn't think I'd be so big and uncomfortable at 5 1/2 months. But, hey, my feet didn't even swell!

Sorry, totally ot....

[TribbleTrouble]

Sigh--how sad--I alwasy thought the moderates were the resorts with the most personality.

[YoHo]

I don't have any info since The Grand California opened, But Pervious to that, the Disneyland hotels booked pretty solid. The Disneyland Hotels are Deluxe offerings with all of the services of a WDW Deluxe. They are much older and thus aren't themed the way WDW Deluxes are, but They Offer deluxe services and that's why they make money.

[doubletrouble_vb]

I love the moderate resorts. I can't stand the idea of staying at All-Stars. If by some chance every moderate closed there is no way I'd choose to stay on site (except for the fact I'm now DVC). I can't stand the acres of concrete at Allstars and the price difference between the deeeluxe hotels & a decent offsite hotel would give me a rental car & spending money.

[daannzzz]

I like the moderate resorts as well. Actually I like all the resorts except for the Villas at the Institute and the Contemporary. And until recently I thought the moderates were the best value for the $$$ spent. They have since raised the prices a bit to high for that distinction but I enjoy them still. The Disneland hotels are nice as well though they were prices lower than the Deluxes at WDW until the Grand Californian. I have stayed at all three at Disneyland and found only the Paradise Pier Hotel to be priced a bit to high.

[peedeejones]

I am shocked and appalled by these rumors! This is the first time I have heard about this.
I am Disney World Resort freak and I can not handle all the news of the changes going on
there now. I LOVE the moderates. I have stayed at all except Coronado Springs and I was looking forward to a few nights there this year. I hope that rumor is not true. I love the Deluxe resorts but I can not always afford to spend our entire vacation at a Deluxe. Have any of these rumors actually been confirmed?
Thanks,
Jennifer

[catwho]

As a AS budget and a Deluxe taste person, I would love to see the Moderates turned into a "larger family" budget resort. I have 3 kids and so can't stay at the AS. I wouldn't mind paying $15-$25 more a night for a Moderate, but not almost double what I am currently paying at AS ($49 a night).

<sigh>

:earsgirl:
56 days

[All Aboard]

The Values are Designed for people who think that WDW is only the Parks. A little presumptious, don't you think YoHo? In our case that's far from the truth. If WDW were only parks in my mind, I'd stay at the Magic Castle on 192 and save even more money. We stay at the All Stars because we love the play areas (e.g. the football field) the big, themed pools, the Disney decor, the friendly Cast Members, the tip top cleanliness, the fun theming and bigger than life icons that you cannot get anywhere else.

What are the Moderates Designed for? The middle? But they do neither well.Again, I'm in sharp disagreement. Since we disagree on what the Values are there "for" it's difficult to argue what the "middle ground" is. But, for theming and feel, there are plenty of folks out there that think that the moderates have marvelous theming. My wife is one, for example. She absolutely loves the Alligator Bayou section of Dixie Landings. I, for one, would much rather stay at DxL than the Contemporary garden wings, virtually any offering within the Disney Institute area, or the Wilderness Homes.

They don't have the amenities or the locations, yet they have the resturants and themeing to demand too high a price for the room. Do you belive that $125 a night is too high a price for what you get at the moderates? Aside from very recent history, WDW has done a good job of filling these resorts, it seems. Also, you've admitted that the moderates have good themeing in that sentence. :)

Drop the price of the Deluxes by $50 bucks a night and the moderates would be gone. Wrong again, my good friend. Just talking rack rates, the cheapest room at your beloved Polynesian is $289 a night, drop that to $239 and the moderates are gone? Huh? I'll bet there are plenty of folks out there that think DxL is a better bargain at $110 less a night.

What you are forgetting in all of this is that many folks have financial limitations. And you may be a little guilty of Pirate Captain's concept of "Dinsey Snobbing" here.

You play WDW executive for a minute. In my case, if you eliminate the moderates and values and my only option is a room that costs me $200 a night. I've got two choices, SIGNIFICANTLY cut back on my travel to WDW or stay off site. Which of those would you like me to choose?

[YoHo]

On the Contrary, I would much rather Keep the moderates were I Mr. Disney Executive.
Note that at no time in the post you quoted did I have anything to say about themeing. YOU know I don't like the Themeing of the Values, I've also made numerous recommendations in other threads on how to rectify that (In my view, Your milage obviously will and Does vary)
I was referring more to amenities and Convience. Surely you can see the difference in thinking behind a resort with some play areas and a resort with essentially a Zoo attached yes? Or the fact that having your resort a boat or Monorail trip away greatly improves your ability to get to that resort for short rests, a good meal, etc.

Themeing is not relevent. The themeing at the moderates is excellent. I know many people who think that Dixie Landings has some of the best themeing on property.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but $49 is not going to be the standard rate at AS forever. Is $110 the standard rack at a moderate? At that price, one wonders why people choose the Allstars regardless of themeing given the amenities the moderates provide? I mean we're talking what? $30 difference at the Allstar Rack of $79? Makes a difference to be sure, but not all that much of one.

People will only pay for what they think is a value. Given the number of people who have said they would love to stay at the deluxes more often, I think you'd be surprised at what a $50 price break would do.

All Stars is in general designed for those people that would stay offsite if it didn't exist. (designed for, not that that is the only type of guest that stays there)

Deluxes are Designed for those who wouldn't stay offsite at any price.

Moderates are what? Personally, I see moderates as having no specifc Demographic.

People who were priced out of the Deluxes?


I'm not trying to be a resort snob at all. I just think that In these economic times, the moderates are getting hurt the worst, because they have the least value for the price and the least fanatic group of fans. The Values are keeping pretty good numbers and the people that can afford the Deluxes can probably still afford the deluxes. The moderates are being lost in the shuffle.

If I am still coming off as snobbish, let me know, it is not my intention.

[All Aboard]

No, you are not coming off "snobbish" in the regular sense of the word. Rather, Peter Pirates version in the thread that condemned all the Value and Moderate resorts because they were not up to "Disney Standards." It was more of a joke than a shot.

Moderate v. Value pricing does make a pretty big difference to me, but I can see your point about a family making a single (relatively short) trip each year.

But in defense of my Value stays, here are some numbers. In 2001 (after my final 3 day weekend in a couple of weeks) I will have stayed on WDW property 36 nights this year. I did stay at Coronado Springs 3 nights and CBR 1 night, and there were times that I paid $59 at the All Stars. For the sake of argument, I'll boil it down to "best rates" - that's $49 at the All Stars and $89 at the moderates. Including tax, 36 nights at those rates would cost $1,976 at the All Stars or $3,556 at the Moderates (for a difference of over $1,500). For a family that makes a one week trip, they are facing just a $300 difference - certainly worth it for the difference in all the things we've discussed.

I am guilty of discussing from personal perspective.

All Stars is in general designed for those people that would stay offsite if it didn't exist. (designed for, not that that is the only type of guest that stays there) I'll buy that (to a degree) but I think you have got your cause and effect backwards (or at least you've oversimplified.) Prior to the presence of the All Stars most (if not all) of the future All Star guests were staying off-site. WDW gave them another option, and they did it in a way that they were able to attract some of these off-site guests. I still say that it's not merely enough to be "on-site", Disney had to do it "right". But, I'll forgo that argument again.

Deluxes are Designed for those who wouldn't stay offsite at any price.See, now you can't have it both ways. Before the Grand Floridian, when the Contemporary and Polynesian were full, guests "had" to stay off-site. They may not have wanted to, but they had no choice.

Surely you can see the difference in thinking behind a resort with some play areas and a resort with essentially a Zoo attached yes? Or the fact that having your resort a boat or Monorail trip away greatly improves your ability to get to that resort for short rests, a good meal, etc. Sure, that's a no-brainer. But I didn't think that's what we were discussing. Your contention is that the moderates "do neither" which I think was defined as 1) having immersive theming that makes them a draw (like the Deluxes) and 2) being a "value" place to sleep. I personally think they combine perfectly on both of those at just the right price point and thus they are so popular.

Moderates are what? Personally, I see moderates as having no specifc Demographic. Why must they have a specific demographic? They serve different purposes, and it all perhaps comes back to budgets. WDW (ideally) would like everyone that visits their parks from out of town to stay at their resorts. In order to do this, you must have offerings that match everyone budget. Until recent economic and other events, I think the mix was very good, there was something for everyone and the occupancy rates proved that out. I contend that it would be a very bad decision to have the cheapest room on-site be priced at $200. It would also be a mistake to have nothing priced between $77 & $200. That's where the moderates come in, that's why they are necessary.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I am guilty of discussing from personal perspective.I think we all are to certain extent. When I get on my soap box with this issue, a particular circumstance such as yours doesn't enter my mind. I look at from an entirely different perspective. As an infrequent visitor, but staying longer per visit. So, with that in mind: No, you are not coming off "snobbish" in the regular sense of the word. Rather, Peter Pirates version in the thread that condemned all the Value and Moderate resorts because they were not up to "Disney Standards." It was more of a joke than a shot.To me this isn't a joke at all!! It is my mantra! And from a strictly personal perspective it is how I vacation. A Disney trip happened once a year, sometimes once every other year. Saving took place. Resources tapped. Finances examined. Budgets allocated. Decisions made. And compromises and tradeoffs were offered and accepted. All this taking place internally, inside my screwy little brain, months before the vacation was to happen.

For example, food costs had to be considered. I personally know people who eat breakfast in their room, pack a lunch every day, and always plan a cheap meal outside of WDW for dinner. I do not understand that thinking at all. Food is too important in my life!! And while Disney may not have the absolute best prices in the world, to me at least, it is worth the price to get that extra Disney experience!! Not to mention the convenience of not having to leave the grounds. It is a trade off that I gladly make. I spend more, almost to the point of not worrying about the cost, but enjoy it tenfold!!

Now this is for a ten day to two week trip. Every other year. If I were to stay in Disney 36 days, I would definitely have to re-think that approach or go broke half way through. It ain't easy flippin' the bill for a family of seven (six of which are adults!!) Again, personal perspective.

I use this same process when choosing accommodations. And you can really carry it to the point of absurdity! You can find a campgrounds (off-property) for twenty bucks a nights. Bring your own tent and have a ball! So the compromises (money vs. Disney experience) begin. Again, looking at from the perspective of "a trip in a lifetime" rather than an everyday occurrence, I find my mind automatically travels to the "damn the cost - full speed ahead". In other words have as immersive, full, Disney experience as humanly possible!!! If that means stretching a bit (at today's prices anyway), so be it!! It's a long time coming between trips!! (That certainly doesn't mean that I take out a second mortgage for a Disney vacation, it just means that I prefer to compromise on the money, or even length of stay by a day or two, rather than the experience.)

Now if I were staying 36 nights instead of ten or twelve, well, "Look out All-Stars, here I come!!!" But not for a for my once every other year trip!! Or in my sister-in-law's case, once every five years!!!

Now, many will say that the All-Stars is a Disney experience. While realizing that this is extremely subjective I have to tell you, "YOU'RE NUTS!!!" Nothing can compare to the deluxe resorts or in a pinch even the moderates (barely "Disney Standards" in my book). And if you think I'm snobbish, allowing money amounts to set my aspirations, I also include in the 'full Disney experience", Fort Wilderness!! In a pop-up camper. It is NOT the room, it is the resort!!! And Fort Wilderness has it all!!!!

That's one of the reasons I joined DVC. I found that squeezing five (since then grown to seven) into a Caribbean Resort room was… well… let's say… a little crowded. I now found myself priced out of the Poly and sized out of the moderates!! I needed two rooms! I was stuck with the All-Stars. So, I opted into DVC. Never looked back at all!!Moderates are what? Personally, I see moderates as having no specific Demographic.Yes they do!! My demographic. For all those middle class, family people who were priced out of the Deluxes oh these many years ago!! To me, they still have the minimum of theming and offer a only somewhat stripped down Disney experience. Would I prefer that they (or the values) didn't exist and that the pricing structure still reflected Walt's (or at least Walker/Miller's) way of running a resort? Sure would!! But… I'm enough of a realist to know that "it ain't gonna happen". So, as a compromise, again inside my own little brain, I'll take the moderates any day of the week!!!!

[Peter Pirate]

When did I say what?
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[YoHo]

So Landbaron, If the Moderates are a price compromise for you and those like you, AND you and those like you are hurting the most from this recession. (I don't know that you and those like you are the worst hit, but I suspect that "middle class, family people " especially those with tech related jobs are being hit the hardest. Then it stands to reason that the moderates would be most likely to be hurt by the recession. Clearly, Poly, Contemp, Wilderness lodge and so forth did not hurt for bookings. Unless the guests there were all dot com wunderkind, they will likely not be hurt in the same way as the moderates.

Again, What would $50 off do for the Deluxes?
Realizing that Seven people to pay for is likely not average.
It may just change things a lot.

Maybe my vision of the Moderates becoming Deluxe is not realistic.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I suspect that "middle class, family people " especially those with tech related jobs are being hit the hardest. Then it stands to reason that the moderates would be most likely to be hurt by the recession.I quite agree! I suspect that the deluxe vacationer, unless on the very cusp, would still opt for the accommodations to which they are accustomed. And the Values would diminish only slightly, being offset by all those Moderates who will choose a very modified Disney vacation rather than no vacation at all!



I'm confused
When did I say what?Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!! ;)

[All Aboard]

When did I say what? You said this (http://www.disboards.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106477&highlight=snobs)

[Planogirl]

Now, this is what I call wisdom! Now you see exactly why we finally tried the Allstars last year. All of the resorts were going for rack rate at the time which meant $125 a night at the Allstars. Nope, I certainly won't do that again, it's not worth it for me. A good offsite hotel would be a better bargain IMO.

Maybe DXL is a little like a deluxe to me because of the boat ride (RIP). After all, the Marketplace is just another theme park to some of us. :p

[Dee & Greg]

I have always stayed at a Moderate (DXL, PO, and CS) because we are in the parks morning-close, but we wanted more themeing than an All Stars. This past Thanksgiving Disney wasn't dealing and the main gate hotels were, so we took a chance at the Grosvenor for $39/nite. It was just fine! And had transportation and the benefit of a length of stay pass. For the money, I'd do it again. Disney keeps fooling around with the moderates, so I am just ignoring that part of my trip. Very sad, it was truly a magical part of our trip, but not with all of the changes recently.

[Baileymouse]

When it comes to the moderate resorts, they did indeed attract the middle class families. My family was one of them. Our favorite of the moderates was PO, now PO-FQ. It was pretty, relaxing, and a good deal. In talking with people who stayed there we found that many were from the NY/NJ/PA area.

NY was hit with this current recession in a big way. Tech jobs folded, many other jobs began to fall and the vacation industry was hit hard. I remember posting about the fantastic 118.75 airfare I had found from EWR to MCO. All of that was pre-9/11. The tragedy only added to the downward spiral of the travel industry. Travel is hurting all over. Hotels are cutting their rates. Disney hits a rough spot and toys with closing the moderates? They're crazy.

We bought into DVC thinking that it would be nice to have the bigger rooms when we needed them, but we could always use the points to stay at the moderates. At that time, the off season was 8 points per night and was a good deal as far as we were concerned. Now it's not so good. Maybe DVC siphoned off too many moderate resort visitors.

Most of the people I know who are in the same boat that I am (living in the NYC area, living from paycheck to paycheck, spousal unit laid off, maybe have a young teen or two in the family) have told me this: if they close the moderates or change them they will stay off-site. That's not just now - that's for when they get back on their feet. It's a better deal. Why pay for a luxury Disney hotel when you can pay less than half at one of the resorts right outside, for a comparable level of luxury. There's a reason why Disney used to tout Early Entry, Package Delivery and other such amenities - it made it seem you were getting more for your money and those were things off-property hotels couldn't offer. No one would consider staying at the AS resorts. They skew towards people with young children. Disney spent a great deal of money trying to woo adults without children or with older kids and the majority won't want to stay in a place that looks like it was designed for kindergarteners.

The Deluxe resorts will always have their market segment. That's nice, but it doesn't include the rest of us, who gave Disney loads of our cash in the 90s but we're a bit tapped out right now. Closing the moderates could definitely mean losing those families to outside interests for good. Disney is forgetting to keep its audience captive. People who are Disney commandos, who are out from morning til night at the parks and the other areas, only need a place to sleep, shower and change. It's convenient to stay on-site. These people aren't looking for the total resort experience offered by some place like the Floridian.

Who stayed in the moderates? Couples who didn't want to spend a fortune, Retirees, honeymooners on a budget, middle income small families, and college students. With the discounts at Universal they'll all trot over there and sign up for those rooms at the HRH and the Portofino.

[doubletrouble_vb]

I love PO-R aka DxL...so does a friend of mine who is a fellow DVCer. The next time I spend a week in Disney (2004?) I'll probably avoid the weekend charges for DVC by staying at PO-R and maybe trying out some of the amenities that are available there.

I can't imagine calling this resort 'barely themed' ... its one of the most peaceful places on site...for me its only outdone by VWL.

[wtg2000]

I can't believe that the moderates, at say $110 per night, are less profitable then the values at say $60 per night. Some of that extra 50 bucks must be profit. Over the years, the moderates have always been pretty full. I mean, at times you could not get a room. On any given night, that could be 4,000 families. That's a big demographic to toss away.

I feel the moderates may have the most character. The grounds are lovely, great for walking around, and informal.

I stayed at the All-Stars once and wouldn't go back. It was nothing specific, I just didn't care for it. And the only reason we stayed there was because the moderates were full!!

When I go deluxe (usually when my Mom is paying or splitting) it's usually the YC/BC. I like spending my evenings at WC, watching Illuminations and strolling to my room in five minutes. The pool is fantastic and the easy EPCOT/MGM access is the big attraction. I love theme of the Wilderness Lodge but not the location so much. If I'm going to spend big bucks it's going to be at World Showcase's door.

Anyway, I can't imagine them dumping the moderates, and I can't believe the Army needs another 1,000 rooms.

[nigel-bigel]

I know I'm backing up a bit here, but you've got me curious. Please oh please, do tell us about the caste system Disney encourages!

I love this stuff...

Nicole

[All Aboard]

I've disagreed with DVC-Landdoofus :D for quite some time on the concept of the "caste-system". My opinion is that WDW now offers on-site options to a wider variety of families. Had they stuck to the Deluxe-or-nothing plan, they'd have created a "haves v the havenots" system, which is much worse in my opinion.

[DVC-Landbaron]

nigel-bigel
I know I'm backing up a bit here, but you've got me curious. Please oh please, do tell us about the caste system Disney encourages!I'll try. But I'm not very good at conveying this message. I have years and years of Ei$ner 'spin' to overcome.

Picture if you will… a vacation destination that was unlike any other in the world. A place that was built on one simple and elegant foundation. That of quality. They built a theme park that was unequalled (with the exception of the original that it was modeled after). And they built resorts unlike any others in the world. They were elegantly themed. They were exotic. They were, in the very least, different.

These resorts set their own standards. It seemed as though they didn't even look at the rest of the industry. They just went on their own way, setting new standards in some areas, and disregarding other amenities that the 'industry' considered their standard.

Most important to remember about these resorts was the price. Cheap and expensive are very subjective terms. So while I would be hard pressed to call these resorts 'inexpensive' it should be noted that the 'industry' laughed at them for 'giving away the store' and as soon as Ei$ner & crew took over significant price increases took place. On another thread YoHo ran the numbers and found that (if I'm not mistaken) the Poly in 1972 should be roughly the cost of the moderates (maybe a bit more) with inflation taken into account.

So! The question that comes to mind immediately is - Why! Why didn't they put up a tiered system to begin with? A quick look at the 'official' five year plan (not some obscure map that has a hastily written 'motel' on it) called for 'more of the same' only! One class of resort!! One type of service!! One price!! The only difference was theme. Again - why!?!?

Simple. They had only one standard. The 'Disney' standard. Nothing else mattered. It didn't matter what swanky New York Hotels were offering. It didn't matter what Marriott was doing. It didn't matter Motel 6 did or did not do. All that mattered was that it lived up to 'Disney' standards. I suppose a secondary consideration was that they didn't actually 'lose' money. But that was it!

Then Ei$ner took over. At a glance he saw lost potential. They were giving high end amenities at middle class prices! And the entire lower income group was totally excluded. His mission was to make it seem like a natural occurrence. What did he do? He threw out the 'original' plan. Then, over the next few years, he raised prices at the two WDW resorts to the point that it cut out most of the middle class! But wait!! They savior of the company came to the rescue!! He gave us the Caribbean Beach, for about the same cost that people had been paying for the Poly and Contemporary only a couple years before. And the people of the middle classed rejoiced!! ALL HAIL THE SAVIOR OF THE COMPANY!!

The Caribbean Beach. A very nice resort. I have stayed there. Very nice indeed. But wait! Is it really Disney? Where are the bell hops that drive you to your room? Where is the nice themed table service restaurant? Where are all those little, elegant Disney Touches? Ahhhh! I see! Those are now for a different class of people. And so the 'STANDARD' slips a little. But only a little.

A few years latter, again after steady price hikes slightly more than inflation, they introduced their economy version of Disney. Giant icons and bright paint took the place of a genuine theme. 'Lively' decorations replaced elegant Disney subtleties. And the Disney 'standard' takes yet another hit.

And if you still think that it wasn't a marketing strategy, a forced caste system, one more example. Remember how the Caribbean Beach had no table service restaurant and had only a food court? It was the first one built and the caste system that was to be hadn't been completely formulated. As typical with Ei$ner, he was shooting too low. That left him with very little room at the bottom to capture another market. So at the same time that the All Stars was being built, a table service restaurant was slipped into the Caribbean. There! That fixed it! A little more definition to clearly depict the differences within the caste system that he initiated.

Who stayed in the moderates? Couples who didn't want to spend a fortune, Retirees, honeymooners on a budget, middle income small families, and college students.That previous quote from Baileymouse caught my eye. I ask you to change that first sentence to "Who stayed in Disney in 1972?" The rest of the paragraph can remain intact. Pretty cool, isn't it? Of course were talking about a time when Disney actually cared about their standards and didn't use them as a marketing ploy only. Or when forced to with their backs against the wall.

Gcurling writes:My opinion is that WDW now offers on-site options to a wider variety of families. I cannot deny that a certain segment of the population was excluded from Disney resorts as they were back in 1972. But!! But, I think were coming at this from two, mutually exclusive, points of view. The absolute, most important thing about Disney, to me, is the philosophy of the concept. The SHOW. The 'Standard'. And since Walt was forced into capitalism (I mean who doesn't like to eat?) he couldn't give it away.

I guess I look at it this way. One day Walt (or one of his Imagineers) thought up a concept. Be it CoP or Pirates or Tiki Birds the concept came first. Next he designed and built it according to what he liked. And then he said, "People! I have built a new ride. It cost us a lot of money to build this thing, but it is really good. It has everything I wanted to see in it. I think you will like it too. But it is not free. It will cost you 90 cents (the cost of an e-ticket in the mid 1970's) to see it. Some of you may have been willing to pay much more, for even more things in it. And some of you may not be able to afford what we charge and would have liked us to build a lesser ride. But I couldn't build a lesser ride. This is what I wanted. It is what I liked. It is built to my standards. And the price, I promise you, while not inexpensive, does not gouge you. Have fun!!"

The same could be said about the resorts. Walt would say, "I have built a resort! I think you will like it. It has all the things in it that are important to me. And I have taken great pains to price it a low as possible and not what the market will bear. Everyone may not be able to afford it, but again, it is what I like in a resort. It has all the amenities that I think are important. It has my name on it and that means that it will live up to the traditional standard that that name represents. Again, have fun!!!"

Had they stuck to the Deluxe-or-nothing plan, they'd have created a "haves v the havenots" system, which is much worse in my opinion.Greg!! We still have that!! Believe it or not there are people in the world and in our own country that simply cannot afford a stay in Disney, even in the economies. The only way to eliminate this problem is to make it free!! And we might have to provide travel as well!! Think what that would do to our stock prices!!!

Hey Nicole. Still love this stuff? ;)

:bounce:

[All Aboard]

DVC-LD, Two things

1) We stayed in a Contemporary Garden Wing room in the summer of 1978 for $69 a night. That would be $176 now, I could have stayed there in the summer of 2001 for $155.

2) The plan you reference only includes the resorts that were to circle the Seven Seas Lagoon. I, too, would never expect anything but deluxes there. Do you have evidence that other levels of accomodations were not planned elsewhere on the property?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Do you have evidence that other levels of accommodations were not planned elsewhere on the property?Sure do!! It's called - (drum roll please)

E P C O T

or

Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow!!

The real one. Walt's.

As far as I know there were no other plans except that scribbling on some napkin that says 'motels' on it. The rest of the land was supposed to be EPCOT.

We stayed in a Contemporary Garden Wing room in the summer of 1978 for $69 a night. That would be $176 now, I could have stayed there in the summer of 2001 for $155.Well!! The waters get muddy real quick this way.

In 1979, I stayed at the Lagoon view (I was told that it was the most expensive room other than a suite) and I paid right around 70 to 75 buck a night. Don't know what that works out to be. Are we talking rack rates or discounted. I can tell I didn't receive a discount back in 1979. I was too young and naïve to even think about it. And I'm not even sure that they offered any at the time.

The reason I remember it so clearly is because it was my honeymoon. And I wanted the absolute best room in the place. I booked it a year and a half early and was told it was the best and most expensive they had. Two years later we went down there again and paid less for a room at the Poly (pool view), than I did on my honeymoon. I know the price because my mother-in-law was also in Florida at the time and the video recorder was on when she walked into our room for the first time. You can hear her say, as she walks through the door, "So this is what you get for 65 bucks a night!" She stayed at some budget motel outside Disney for 35 or so a night. Everything is relative!!

[All Aboard]

Wait a minute, wait a minute....

Landbaron, are you saying that Walt Disney World was originally intended to be the Magic Kingdom, the resorts around SSL, and Epcot, and NOTHING else??? Are you sure?

Ok, I'll buy your numbers on the Tower. $75 in 1979 is $192 today. I can get it for $199.

[Captain Crook]

scoop does it again!

The only way Disney could get the encompassing regulations to meet their requirements was to promise Walt's EPCOT, as we've come to know it. The community needed to be a "real" community with a living, working populous - something they again encountered with developing Reedy Creek & Celebration...Oh, "Married To The Mouse" explains it very well...EPCOT was a ruse...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

Landbaron, are you saying that Walt Disney World was originally intended to be the Magic Kingdom, the resorts around SSL, and Epcot, and NOTHING else??? Are you sure?YEP!! Not withstanding Mr. Scoop's conspiracy theories (watch the grassy knoll, it looks like a Pirate over there)!! The Magic Kingdom, the resorts around the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT (the full blown city)! I've never heard of any other plans. Have you?

Ok, I'll buy your numbers on the Tower. $75 in 1979 is $192 today. I can get it for $199.Is that $199 a discounted rate or rack rate. We need to do apples to apples (for a change ;)).

[Buckleybunch]

where can you find "married to a mouse" at??

[YoHo]

I'm pretty sure that in the 70s, there weren't the aggressive discounts that there are now (I won't get into why)

I'm gonna side with Landbaron on this. I have never heard of EPCOT being a ruse. I work with people who think Walt was evil too. Is that true too?

I personally have no problem believing the handwritten motels map for the simple reason that it makes sense to me. Disneyland suffered from cheap motels not owned by Disney. Why not own them and thus reap the benefits AND have them meet whatever it is you consider your Motel-Disney Standard.
No, its not hard to buy at all.

Trust me though, EPCOT was no ruse.

[All Aboard]

YoHo, I think you are agreeing with LandBaron on the ruse issue but disagreeing with him on WDW being limited to MK, Epcot and some deluxes circling SSL. Am I right?

When Walt was presenting the Florida Project on TV (and I'm sure you've seen this) he speaks about having "enough land to do everything we can dream of." While I don't profess to be a mind reader I'm suspicous of "everything we can dream of" being limited to that short list above.

No more parks? No more resorts anywhere else on property? Really? I'm not sold on this.

[nigel-bigel]

Land Baron, thanks for the explaination.

I don't have much of a response, just kind of letting it all sink in. I totally see your point about compromising Disney's standards with the "lesser" (for want of a better term) resorts. Personally, I don't understand how a place can be called a "resort" and not even have a full-service restraunt. I call that a motel. A resort is a place that has everything you could need or want, and with so many ameninites that you wouldn't want to leave the property.

Maybe that's it! The deluxes should be the only ones referred to as resorts, with moderates being hotels and budgets being motels. I think those terms more accuratley reflect the level of service one should expect from these places. Disney could still provide the level of service and accomodations to Disney standards, but the extent of these services would be dictated by industry norms.

Just trying to make everybody happy... I do agree with Greg, that by not servicing every segment of the market they could seem elitist. However, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. The Four Seasons and the Ritz don't serve every sector of the market, and that is precisely why they have the reputation for excellence that they do.

And yes, I still love this!

Nicole

[DVC-Landbaron]

No more parks? No more resorts anywhere else on property? Really? I'm not sold on this.I am. Walt wanted EPCOT (the city). He often said the only reason that he condescended to the 'Magic Kingdom" concept was to generate capital and excitement for his "Florida Project". Which was EPCOT! NOT WDW!!

[raidermatt]

Next he designed and built it according to what he liked.

I think we are all extremely grateful that Walt had this gift. He built things the way HE liked them, and, bata boom bata bip, it was succesful. He believed in what he liked, and it turned out it was what many of us liked. This gift, in conjunction with his determination, made Disney what it was. However, the business landscape is littered with the ruins of those who had this same belief, but were wrong. They felt no less passionately than Walt. They worked just as hard. But they didn't have his gift. And the reality is, if one does not have this gift (and very few really do), you must temper some of your enthusiasms with prudent business sense.

If dvclb's theories about rising rates at the deluxes is true, its because Walt was able to get away with not getting everything he could from the resorts because his company was in an almost constant state of tremendous growth. The pressue to make the ratios look good was there, but at nowhere near the level it is today. If the original resorts were under-priced, and it appears to a certain extent they were, it was inevitable that price increases would come. If not from current Disney management, then from whomever convinced the shareholders they could do it better.

Company's experiencing high growth periods, as Disney was during much of Walt's tenure, can get away with under utilizing resources. But as we've seen all too well in the last few years, there comes a point when the company must become more financially responsible, because super-growth cannot last forever. If financial responsibility does not occur, the company is doomed.

So raising rates was a given, whether we like it or not. The next question becomes does Disney try to reach further down the middle-class ladder? (This question actually exists whether the deluxe prices rose or not). Obviously, the decision was yes, and I find it difficult to criticize it from a business point of view. If we are defining the caste system as different levels of service for different prices, then this system already exists everywhere else anyway, including the restaurants on property.

This does not mean I am in full support of Eisner's decisions. There's a difference between financial responsibility and gutting the creative heart out of your company, but that's another story...

[nigel-bigel]

Okay Scoop, call me thick. I don't get your comment. Kumquats? Jewell (yuck!)? Could you clarify that for me please?

And so what if The Four Seasons doesn't cater to families and kids? My point is that they don't try to be all things to all people. They just worry about excellent service, and the public knows their standards. Why couldn't Disney focus on excellence in family accomodations?

Disney is starting to put its name on everything, and the brand will soon lose its cachet.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop Duchovny :
I believe you will find that Epcot was never intended for residents and office parks...it was always intended for tourists after the worlds fair success.Do you really believe that Walt never intended to build EPCOT (the city)?

I will grant you that after his death, no one, including Roy, knew how to fulfill this dream. But do you really think that if Walt had lived another 15 to 20 years we would still see an amusement park EPCOT instead of a city? Maybe a failed but city, but a city nonetheless!

nigel-bigel And yes, I still love this!Great! :bounce: Keep posting!!

And your welcome!! (I love trying to convince people about this rather abstract concept, so in a couple months, ask again! ;))

[raidermatt]

Walt wanted EPCOT (the city). He often said the only reason that he condescended to the 'Magic Kingdom" concept was to generate capital and excitement for his "Florida Project". Which was EPCOT! NOT WDW!!

This was my understanding as well, admittedly through far less research than most others have performed. Certainly the motivation for presenting EPCOT as a ruse could have been there, had the ultimate goal been a WDW type resort. But its my understaning that it was Roy who pushed for MK, and when Walt passed, it became a done deal.

Regardless, I hope we are not saying that Walt's EPCOT should have been built, even after his passing??? With Walt at the helm, I can see him pulling anything off. But clearly, the same passion for EPCOT did not exist among the post-Walt leadership. Without this passion, and Walt's continued direction throughout what would have been a very trying development process, I can't see EPCOT being pulled off succesfully.

Given the way things played out, I'm happy with the WDW we do have.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Raidermatt, A couple of questions and a few comments, if you please.
However, the business landscape is littered with the ruins of those who had this same belief, but were wrong.But that's just the point! He was not wrong! He had the business plan for success! Yes, he was instrumental in initiating it, but once started it could pretty much run on auto-pilot. And it was for a while (read: Walker/Miller) and it could have been kept that way if they just realized what assets they were sitting on and protected their value. If dvclb's theories about rising rates at the deluxes is true It is.The pressure to make the ratios look good was there, but at nowhere near the level it is today.Why? What makes the 'pressure' more intense today. Except that we, as a society, are more aware of 'the market'. But to the individual stockholders, it was every bit as important as it is today. They were buying a company and a product. A concept. Same as smart investors do today!! If not from current Disney management, then from whomever convinced the shareholders they could do it better.You make the same mistake that bicker often makes. Your confusing every other business in the world with Disney. You see, the experience FOR THE RELATIVELY LOW PRICE, is the product!!! Take away either the low cost or lessen the experience and it is no longer "Disney"! It becomes ordinary instead. So raising rates was a given, whether we like it or not.I respectfully, disagree!! Obviously, the decision was yes, and I find it difficult to criticize it from a business point of view.So do I. If we are defining the caste system as different levels of service for different prices, then this system already exists everywhere else anyway And that is why the Disney experience used to be sooooo unique!!including the restaurants on property.I'm sorry. I can't equate a restaurant with a 'Disney' Resort. I know what you mean, but I think the analogy falls way short of the mark. There's a difference between financial responsibility and gutting the creative heart out of your company, but that's another storyAhhhh! But to me that is the story!!!


PS:Regardless, I hope we are not saying that Walt's EPCOT should have been built, even after his passing???WHOA!! Absolutely not!! I think that Scoop is right to a certain extent. They people who took over after Walt's death keep up the pretense of EPCOT for quite a while. I think at the beginning their intentions were honorable. But they soon came to realize that it would be impossible. And they finally had to admit that they could not do it. But they admitted it only to themselves. They neglected to inform the Florida legislature for years and years!!

PPS:
My point is that they don't try to be all things to all people. They just worry about excellent service, and the public knows their standards. Why couldn't Disney focus on excellence in family accommodations?OH YEAH!!!! You gotta keep posting!!! Right on the money in one!! How about it Scoop? I couldn't have said it any better myself and it would have taken me four time the words!!! ;)

[Captain Crook]

Oh, I think Walt would have built EPCOT, whatever it was to be, but the concept was still so abstract that there were no concrete plans to follow, no feasibility studies to be made, nothing but "one man's dream" if you will. Had Walt lived he probably would have attempted his EPCOT, but since he didn't and no plans had been made to do so, the actual development was left to Roy & the group to decipher - And remember they always followed the "what would Walt do" dogma and the Epcot we have is what we were built.

From reading about the acquisitions & particularily the problems they had establishing what they needed to establish with Reedy Creek I don't think we'd have gotten the magical EPCOT Walt dreamed of anyway. The bueracracy hurdles were enormous & we would have ended up with a more imaginative Celebration, IMO. So, (again IMO) the WDW we all know and love is as much thanks to Roy as it was Walt (the basic concepts were all Walt, of course but the actual course of expansion of the WDW Resort was far more Roy & Eisner).

Now to the actual moderate debate...This is where the LB contingent begins to look like the "Disney elitist" we've discussed previously. Tell me why a moderate (say CSR) which appeals to a segment of the population not used to staying at such a nice and oppulent Resort, (dare I say fancy Resorts?) as heretofore offered, and are thrilled with the quality and the detail they see, the beauty around them...(dare I say magic?) of the CSR moderate. Why is that unacceptable? I myself feel very out of place at a Ritz-Carlton. Don't get me wrong, I recognize and appreciate the amenities & classiness, but I am not personally happy there, so does that automatially make a fancy Marriot, for half the price, inferior?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[Another Voice]

I try to catch up on some reading and the place turns into a bad ‘X-Files’ fan fiction site.

Nope, EPCOT was not a malevolent scheme by Walt to seize control over mankind, or even the state of Florida. By the early sixties, he was at the age when a man asked what he’s really accomplished with his life and what has he done to leave the world a better place. Walt was never one to think about trust funds, bank accounts or anything small – he really thought he could change the way people lived.

Whether his ideals were shared by many others in the business is debatable, but he was very sincere about his plans. And Walt’s plan remained the official master plan for the property until about 1980 when his heirs admitted they lacked the confidence to proceed. No one ever really accused Ron Miller or Card Walker of much vision.

The master plan included the recreation zone centered around the Magic Kingdom, six deluxe resort hotels, camp grounds and golf courses. The center of the property was to be EPCOT with about 20,000 residents. The large tower in the center of the city was to have been a hotel and office complex. A large section of “Downtown” was a World Showcase style shopping and entertainment complex. Surrounding the center were to have been homes, apartments, neighborhoods. To the east was to be a non-EPCOT housing development for vacation homes, condominiums and corporate housing (which was built as designed, but was turned into the Disney Village resorts instead of being sold). South of EPCOT was a large industrial park, a research and development campus and other businesses (an idea that Eisner really likes and may yet be built). At the extreme southern end of the property was supposed to be an airport and transportation center serving all of Central Florida (again, another project that has current designs sitting in Glendale).

Much of Walt’s plan is still in WDW in one form or another. And much of the rest is still possible.

I should also say that one third of the property was have been left in its natural state in the form of a nature preserve. This was another important part of Walt’s plan. But the nature preserve was bulldozed to build Animal Kingdom in an act of irony that goes beyond words. Another sizable amount of acre was to have devoted to green space, flood control and gardens. The master plan called for actually developing just over half of the land Disney owned at the time.

Perhaps over the holiday I’ll have a chance to dig through the archives and find some more details. And by the way, cheap motel rooms were never part of the plan. Walt had several occasions to build those at Disneyland or put them in the WDW Plan. He just wasn’t interested in them.

[JeffJewell]

neither do they market towards families and kids...I believe we have a kumquats sighting...someone call Jewell for an official ruling, please ...I think it's legitimate to say that Disney was once the Four Seasons of family vacation resorts. Now they try to be every family vacation resort, including the TraveLodge of family vacation resorts. That's a noticeable, and regrettable, difference.Jewell (yuck!)? "Yuck?" How humiliating.

Jeff

[seashoreCM]

The problem with the EPCOT that Walt envisioned is that the Disney corporation could lose control quickly. Any U.S. community is governed by voters, who are the actual people residing there.

In order to build Walt's rendition of EPCOT, a section of land must be incorporated into a town or city different from the one (Lake Buena Vista?) that MK, AK, EPCOT and MGM and the resorts are in. Is Celebration so separately incorporated?

More Disney tips:
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[raidermatt]

He had the business plan for success!

I agree, provided there were enough new ideas and growth opportunities to make his plan work. In a lower, sustained growth model, I fear his plan would not have been as successful, and he may have encountered some insurmountable problems.

What makes the 'pressure' more intense today?

Its not so much the intelligence of investors that has changed, but more the short-term focus of investors. Investors in general want to see results now. I fear the recent .com failures will only exacerbate this. I'm not saying this focus is better, or more intelligent, only that it exists in greater abundance today than 30-40+ years ago.

Your confusing every other business in the world with Disney. You see, the experience FOR THE RELATIVELY LOW PRICE, is the product!!! Take away either the low cost or lessen the experience and it is no longer "Disney"! It becomes ordinary instead.

I could not disagree more. Price is a component in the value proposition, but it is absolutely NOT a part of the product. The Experience itself is the product, period. We do not marvel at Peter Pan because we paid an affordable price for the ticket or DVD. I certainly was not thinking about price when I walked hand in hand down Main Street with my son the first time.

Increasing WDW/DL/DVD, etc prices 100% across the board would not decrease the magic of the experience. It would make the experience less accessable, but the experience, or product does not change. Likewise, decreasing prices 50% would not make for a "better" product. Only a more affordable one.

I'm sorry. I can't equate a restaurant with a 'Disney' Resort. I know what you mean, but I think the analogy falls way short of the mark.

True, the scope is smaller, but the concept is the same. Family A can afford PS's at Cinderella's Royal Table. They can afford to drop $30-40 per person on dinner and are treated as royalty in the castle. Family B can only budget for dinner at Cosmic Ray's. They may get a nice value, but clearly the quantity of service received is different. I don't see how this is different than paying more or less for the hotel room, and getting the corresponding quantity of service. (note, quantity, not quality. EVERY guest should get high QUALITY service)


I also don't believe financial responsibility means the creative heart must be removed. Finding new revenue streams, or making better use out of current streams does not mean creative energy must be stifled. Its expense cutting that is the culprit. When I say responsible cutting, I'm referring to more efficient scheduling, making better purchasing decisions, etc. I do NOT mean these as code words for elimination of Imagineering, or decreased guest services. I do believe that some of the expense cutting that has occured is not RESPONSIBLE expense cutting.

[nigel-bigel]

Jeff, I must apologize. I had no idea who Jewell is. Scoop was talking about kumquats, which I still don't understand, so when he referred to Jewell, I assumed it was the singer (who deserves the "yuck"), because that is the only Jewel I know of, and it would make sense because I wouldn't understand what she would have to do with this discussion, either. She would be as relevant as kumquats, get it? I certainly did not mean to offend a real-live rational person whose just-stated opinion I agree with!

And Land Baron, you had me laughing! I'm checking in after dinner, reading your post, thinking that you really know your stuff and seem like a pretty smart guy. And then you go agreeing with and complimenting me!!! Ah, yes, we great minds do think alike...

Gentlemen, please continue, I am enjoying this. BTW, am I the only woman here? Cool!

Nicole

[YoHo]

Well, there is Sarangel, but she's a mod, she spends most of her time feeding us ravenous Rumour readers the juciest of online Disney Morsels. Rarely does she stay to feast on the Kill.

[JeffJewell]

...no sweat, I was just funnin' you.

Planogirl and Hopemax are the women regulars here that spring right to mind. Several others who mostly lurk have been known to mix it up every so often, when the mood strikes them.

Jeff

[nigel-bigel]

[This is where the LB contingent begins to look like the "Disney elitist" we've discussed previously. Tell me why a moderate (say CSR) which appeals to a segment of the population not used to staying at such a nice and oppulent Resort, (dare I say fancy Resorts?) as heretofore offered, and are thrilled with the quality and the detail they see, the beauty around them...(dare I say magic?) of the CSR moderate. Why is that unacceptable? I myself feel very out of place at a Ritz-Carlton. Don't get me wrong, I recognize and appreciate the amenities & classiness, but I am not personally happy there, so does that automatially make a fancy Marriot, for half the price, inferior?
[/B][/QUOTE]

One could actually say that THIS is an elitist statement. In essence, that a deluxe resort is too fancy for Joe Six-Pack, and Joe would really be more comfortable with lesser services and amenities, so Disney is just giving the simple man what he wants.

I understand your reservations (pun intended, I guess) regarding a property such as the Ritz-Carlton. However, I'm betting it is the formality of these places that you don't want. But who doesn't feel comfortable at the Beach Club, for instance? Top-notch service, decor, amenities, and you still feel comfortable walking through the lobby in flip-flops. Excellence does not have to be synonomous with stuffiness.

[Captain Crook]

Certainly your remarks are valid, but what about the person who is uncomfortable with the Beach Club rates and even if he scrimps & saves to stay there, still feels apprehensive due to the fact that the majority of the peope are, perhaps, far wealthier than he. Surely you must admit that the human ego in such matters isn't likely simply be put on the shelf?

IMO, it is elitist to feel that only one catagory of hotel (expensive) should exist at WDW and further, I believe it unfair to catagorize only the magic of the deluxe hotels as "real" magic when clearly many, many peope find great gobs of magic at the AS, for instance...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

…is the Cost/Magic ratio!!

The Experience itself is the product, period. We do not marvel at Peter Pan because we paid an affordable price for the ticket or DVD. I certainly was not thinking about price when I walked hand in hand down Main Street with my son the first time.And this is where we part company. Price does matter. Suppose, for the sake of argument that you had to pay for each ride. Like ‘back in the day’. And further suppose that it cost ten dollars to ride Peter Pan, since it is your example. Is it still magical? Let’s make it free. Any more magical?

Let’s take it a bit further. We all, even the duffus complainers, love a day at WDW. We are filled with awe and wonder and delight. But suppose for a moment that the experience cost $500.00 a day. Does it still seem as wonderful? Does it still fill you with awe? Or are you a little disappointed that your every second wasn’t ‘electrifying’ at these prices? I know it affects my viewpoint.

And I think it especially plays a part in the resort stay. Many of us never knew such amenities before Disney let us in on their standards. Maybe you have to be from a certain economic class in the first place to fully understand the relationship between cost and experience. I suppose if I were simply oozing with money and someone tried to explain this concept I'd nod politely, smile warmly and not understand a word of it. But for many, the cost is magical in itself.

I guess what I’m saying, at least for the resorts is, if I pay for the deluxe accommodations I would expect nothing less than what I get from the Floridian or Poly. But if I am paying moderate prices and we have two table service restaurants, water activities, proximity to a park, monorail transportation, bell service in golf carts to and from the room, free package delivery in the room and all those other little Disney Standard Touches, then YES YES YES it is truly MAGICAL!!!!

True, the scope is smaller, but the concept is the same. Family A can afford PS's at Cinderella's Royal Table. They can afford to drop $30-40 per person on dinner and are treated as royalty in the castle. Family B can only budget for dinner at Cosmic Ray's.Ahhhh! I see your point. But I still don’t like the analogy. You see, I think it’s more like Cinderella's Royal Table costing $30-$40 per and the Economy version, calling itself Cindy’s Castle, and putting out PR that it is still a Cinderella experience, costing half that amount. The only difference is that instead of being housed in Cinderella’s Castle it is in a nice cinderblock (pun intended) building that has a giant picture of her over the door. And they carry the exact same menu items. It’s just that the portions are cut in half. But hey!! It costs half as much!!

And to me, that just isn’t good “Disney” form.

Captain!!! I don’t have time right now, but I will over the week-end. And I will pull out thousands of Walt quotes that you will have to read proving just how wrong one Pirate can be. For now nigel-bigel is handling things beautifully!!!! Maybe she would do us the honor of choosing a car. I'll bet that the Captain loses that one too!!!! ;)

[Captain Crook]

I'll bet the Captain loses that one too
My friend, have you looked at the results of the carpool poll lately? It appeas that the satisfied are still ahead here or are you using "Cubs logic" of some sort?

As for the Pirate, well. please leave him outta this!
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[raidermatt]

nigel- We have to remember that not every family can affort deluxe resorts, even at discounted rates.

Also, for most families, their PRIMARY reason for visiting WDW, particularly if they do not visit often, is the theme parks. Moderate and Economy resorts allow them to do this. Don't get me wrong, Disney standards must still be upheld, but there are some families who just don't care if they have a sit-down restaurant at their resort. Its more important to them that they get to stay on-site, are treated as Disney guests, and get to treat their children to MK, MGM, etc...

From a business point of view, outside hotel operators provide moderate/economy resorts anyway. Since Disney does as well, these guests can still stay on-site, if they so choose, and are not excluded from staying "in the magic".

[Another Voice]

Rumor has it that the deluxes are generally filled with all those average people who scrimp and save for a “big” vacation and/or spend more on travel than the average American. Frankly, the Ritz-Carlton crowd doesn’t go to WDW and stay on property in great numbers. Even the Grand Floridian doesn’t lure in jet set vacationers (haven’t you ever wondered why they built a convention center there? Got to fill all those rooms somehow).

And the low-end All Stars aren’t filled with the hourly wage earners yearning for breathe of sweet Disney magic. Mostly they’re filled with people who, on average, visit more than once a year and are looking to save money. The same crowd that could afford either the Deluxe or Moderate level, but if you get the same “magical” Mickey Mouse soaps why pay extra. In effect, Disney has given people a great way to "trade down" their WDW trip rather than for people to "trade up" from an off-property hotel. The Moderates themselves are filled when the other two categories are filled and sold at very steep discounts to airlines, tour operators, conventions, cruise lines, and just about every place else they can dump a room.

Now of course there are always going to be individuals who don’t fit the pattern. But no matter how many pirates post about their individual preferences, that really doesn’t affect the overall trend that Disney deals with on so many hotel rooms. Class warfare theory is nice, and even some of Disney’s planning used a little of it, but things didn’t work out that way.

[raidermatt]

dvclb- I understand your argument, but still believe you are confusing the product with the value of the product.

And further suppose that it cost ten dollars to ride Peter Pan, since it is your example. Is it still magical? Let’s make it free. Any more magical?

In order, yes it is still magical at $10, and no its not more magical if its free. Assuming a well-maintained ride, friendly CMs, etc, I will always get the same amount of Pixie Dust (pd) from Peter Pan. That PD is the product. But there is a limit to what I'll pay for that product. As the price gets close to that limit, I become more concerned with my value, but I'm still getting the same product.

Using your resort example, lets say you get the deluxe amenities for a moderate price, and that makes it more magical for you than if you got them at a deluxe price. You're saying saying M=A+P, where M=magic, A=amenities, service, etc, and P=price satisfaction (the lower the price to you, the higher P, and therefore your magic goes). If that's the case, you should get just as much Magic if the Amenties are lowered, but price is lowered as well (meaning P increases). That sounds a lot like a Moderate or Economy resort. Yet that does not make you happy. Why? Because you are expecting a certain amount of magic or pixie dust, or whatever, without a care about cost. THAT is the product.

Now, the lower the price you pay, the more value you are getting, and certainly value can be a magical thing for all of us. But that value is not the product, its the proposition Disney is making to us. "We have lots of Pixie Dust here. Yes, you have to pay, but the PD you'll get is worth it. And if you want the PD from the parks and being on-site, but don't need the PD from the pool with a big clowns head, we'll charge you a little less".

[All Aboard]

AV, do you ever venture over to the resorts board? I just don't buy the argument that the only time the moderates are filled is when the deluxes and values are filled first. Seems PO/DxL/CSR/CBR are the first choice amongst many folks on these boards. Whenever I play around with the online booking engine, very often the mods booked up when there was still plenty of deluxe availability.
______________

As to the "elitist"argument. I would find it very elitist if Disney required you to spend a minimum of $200 a night just for the pleasure of being on-site. Requiring folks to "scrimp and save" every last nickel just to spend it all on accomodations is very un-Disney like in my vision of Disney. So what that it was that way with the first two hotels, by no means does that establish that it MUST be that way with all the hotels.

LB, you cannot eliminate the restaurant argument and be consistent with your point. If a Deluxe-only WDW is your vision, there is no place for Cosmic Ray's in that vision.

If my only choice was a $200 a night room, I'd be staying off site. Just simple economics.

[DC7800]

Originally posted by Another Voice
[B]Rumor has it that the deluxes are generally filled with all those average people who scrimp and save for a “big” vacation and/or spend more on travel than the average American.

And the low-end All Stars aren’t filled with the hourly wage earners yearning for breathe of sweet Disney magic. Mostly they’re filled with people who, on average, visit more than once a year and are looking to save money. The same crowd that could afford either the Deluxe or Moderate level. [B]

This makes perfect sense. A vacation in WDW involves choices, just like anything else. Almost everyone in WDW can afford the Grand Floridian (or Boardwalk, etc), whethor they're spending $500 or $5,000, if only for 1-3 nights in some cases. While those few days would be the most magical experience possible, such an apporach would mean doing WDW "commando style"; in such a case, you might as well stay at All-Stars (or even off-site), because you will not be able to take advantage of the resort amenities (which you pay for). That same person might afford 6-7 nights in a moderate or 10 in a value resort. Which wou choose is personal preference: spend more for superior lodging, or save that money for more character meals and the like.

I've stayed at each resort level. One odd thing I noted a few years ago was that we spent about the same total amount on vacation whethor we stayed in a moderate or value resort. Without completely realizing it, the moderate years we did more fast-food; All-Star years meant more entertaiment options and some of WDW's best restaurants.


and remember, alot, of families still stay offsite because they cannot afford the AllStar rates of 79-99 a night...

I know several families who stay off-site because they only think they cannot afford WDW resorts. They pay maybe $60-$100 per night in I-Drive or Irlo Bronson (as a walk-in), not realizing they could have All-Stars for about the same price. Sure, you can stay off-site for $40 or less in a nice location, but for me at least, the savings would not be worth it to miss the Disney "pixie-dust" experience. Many others apparently disagree, but can't help but think many of them don't realize what they're missing.

I just don't buy the argument that the only time the moderates are filled is when the deluxes and values are filled first. Seems PO/DxL/CSR/CBR are the first choice amongst many folks on these boards.

It's been a couple years perhaps, but I've been known to call WDW for a last-minute trip (1-2 days) to find nothing available except at the deluxe resorts (and no standard views there either). The only thing left was a higher-priced resort room. Incidentally, I didn't make reservations for last-weeks expedition to WDW until we reached Valdosta, GA. on the way down (I'd been hoping to reach Ocala before closing time, but didn't) Plenty of availability through CRO, but the only moderates they offered were Coronado and - surprisingly - Port Orleans Riverside (water view).

[nigel-bigel]

I think a lot of this debate could be resolved if Disney would only change what they call the moderate and bugets. "Budget resort" is almost an oxymoron! This isn't just semantics.

When you hear "resort", you think of something like GF. Trying to be all things to all people means presenting the AS as resorts, and they just are not that. If Disney has set their standard of excellence for a resort as the GF or YC, then they have no choice but to compomise quality to provide lower-priced "resorts". Instead, call the budgets "motels" or "lodges" or whatever, and then excell at providing THAT experience.

The same argument could be made for the moderates; call them "hotels" or "courtyards" or "foxholes". Every place to buy food at WDW isn't a restaurant, so why is every place to sleep called a resort?

I don't have a problem with a company marketing to all segments of it's market. But producing products with varying degrees of quality only degrades your brand. Further, a degraded brand seems to lead to a lesser product, and on and on.

I also must add that I know very little about Walt and his vision, especially compared to you guys! But everything I've learned about the man and his vision leads me to believe he would in ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY want a property like the AS to have his name on them. Are they an immersion in an idyllic fairy-tale world, with no point overlooked, no detail too small for the Disney Magic? I'm thinking no. Soap does not magic make.

Okay, okay, I chose a car. I went w/#2, optomistically, b/c I was really between 2 and 3. I don't think the magic is in SERIOUS jeopardy, but it is trouble, and I don't think the magic will ever be what it was originally. (But that's what happens when you have business people at the helm, instead of talent. A perfect example is the auto companies. The demise of the Big 3 began when accountants and marketing guys started leading the companies instead of the engineers.) The maketing push is too in-your-face, and unfortunately, successful, to ever abate. I'm talking about things like taking photos of guests at every turn, or having a store at the exit of every attraction. These things cheapen the Disney experience.

But the I think the service, cleanliness, and attention to detail will always be there. In summary, I don't think Disney will ever be what it once was, they seem to have lost thier "innocence", but it will still be head and shoulders above others.

And dscoop, we are big Wolverine fans at our house! My DH went to Michigan, and is a big football fan. The University itself, however, has seen lots of changes, and none of them good, IMHO. But that is another topic for another board. Actually, it IS quite similar to our discussion here - that they -U of M- are lessening their reputation for excellence by providing a lesser product.

I'm not going to be around for the rest of the day, but you guys have fun!

Nicole

[Another Voice]

The average poster on the Internet is no the same as the average guest at WDW.

Postings even on the resorts boards aren’t always reflective of market forces that Disney has to deal with. Again, there are always individual exceptions to the trends – but Disney makes most of its money from following trends and that is where its interests are.

The original resorts were designed to be true resorts, first quality hotels with all the amenities, services and activities that other resort hotel offer. Disney’s just happened to be located at WDW instead of the Hawaii or Hilton Head.

These days, The Company thinks of the property by using the cruise ship metaphor. “Walt Disney World” is the resort – the hotels are simply the accommodations. The parks, gates, and shopping areas are the resorts (i.e., WDW’s) “common areas”, the hotels are the “cabins” that come with varying levels of amenities at different price points. And like cruise ships, the goal is to get people out of there rooms and out spending money.

If this is a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on how a person sees there WDW trip. For a lot of people (and probably most people around here), just being at WDW is the trip – few are looking for a full-blown resort trip. Others who are not so enthralled with all things Mouse might be interested in more resorts experience – tennis, boating, jogging, restaurants, etc.

[All Aboard]

I also must add that I know very little about Walt and his vision, especially compared to you guys! But everything I've learned about the man and his vision leads me to believe he would in ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY want a property like the AS to have his name on them. Are they an immersion in an idyllic fairy-tale world, with no point overlooked, no detail too small for the Disney Magic? I'm thinking no. Soap does not magic make.I tend to believe Jim Hill when he writes that it was virtually impossible to predict what Walt would approve of when he was alive and that making any guesses about what he WOULD have approved of today is truly impossible. Even for those who were closest to him.

First question, have you ever stayed at the All Stars? If not, I hope you do (especially Movies) because you just might find Magic in more than the soap.

Just a few weeks ago I noticed something for the first time. Something small, seemingly insignificant. Something that could (and likely does) get overlooked by most guests. I was standing on the balcony outside our third floor room (Pongo Building) that overlooked the courtyard. Nat was fast asleep inside after a long night at MVMCP. As I scanned the property from my perch, admiring all the wonderful sights that you'd never ever see at the Motel 6 some folks compare ASMo to, something struck me. The bushes below me. The wide patch of manicured shrubbery that lined the side of the courtyard. It was planted with two distinctly different shades of bushes in a manner that appeared to give it big spots. Like Dalmatians.

[Lesley]

I tend to believe Jim Hill when he writes that it was virtually impossible to predict what Walt would

Very true. Who would have thought that the noted and popular mainstream pediatrician Dr. Benjamin Spock would have promoted a vegan diet for all people, including children, by the end of his life? (Which he did) I think we may have seen some similarly shocking ideas coming from Walt....people are funny that way...unpredictable!

And, who knows, perhaps someday I too will sing the praises of the All Stars.....I don't think I could possibly hate any stay on WDW property...but for now I'm still avoiding them.

[Lesley]

Sorry, the portion that I quoted was cut off...intended to quote that entire paragraph...

[DisDuck]

Happy New Year Folks.. This thread feels very been there/done that to me (like maybe last year). The only thing a 'caste' system brings to mind is British India, Rajah's and all that.

Thanks gcurling for your 'shrub' comment. When I stayed at AllS Movie, Perdi(sp?) I did not notice the 'spots'. But I did feel 'Disney' which I don't feel off-site at my timeshare (as nice as it is with 7 pools, etc).

I find nothing wrong nor un-Disney like in providing various levels of accomodations. Any one remember the Disney Inn. Wasn't this an attempt at a lower price scale than the 'deluxes'? How come no one is complaining about that 'idea'?

[DVC-Landbaron]

Happy New Year FolksAnd right back at ya, Mr. Duck!!! Happy New Year!!:bounce:

This thread feels very been there/done that to me (like maybe last year). I agree!! That, and a very busy weekend, has kept me from posting. However, you did say something that wasn't quite right as I see it. Sorry to pick on yours in particular, as there have been many points throughout the thread that disagree with, but not only was yours the most recent (after playing catch-up today) it was also the easiest to answer!!

Any one remember the Disney Inn. Wasn't this an attempt at a lower price scale than the 'deluxes'? How come no one is complaining about that 'idea'?I don’t complain about it because that was not the intent!! Remember it started life as The Golf Resort. And as such offered ‘golfers’, who may not really enjoy the hustle and bustle of the ‘theme park experience’, a quiet and serene escape into a tranquil golf experience – ‘Disney Style’.

They had planned to cater to many vacation experiences other than theme parks. The problem, as I see it, was that Walker/Miller didn’t have a clue as to how to implement them (and Ei$ner didn't either it seems. Read: The Institute!). Maybe no one can!! Or perhaps the public didn’t let them. You may be right. Maybe the Golf thing never took off like the wanted it to. Instead, theme park vacationers booked it to get a slightly cheaper rate and never cared about the Disney Golf Experience. In either case, it was not born to be a ‘cheaper’ alternative to the Poly or the Contemporary. It was supposed to be… different.

[Laura's Dad]

We love the moderate resorts. They are priced in OUR price range and have the Disney magic that we have come to expect on our WDW vacations. What is wrong with being in the middle. I cannot afford $300 a night for a hotel and, like many, DON'T like the All-Stars theming. I would like to think that there are many people out there like us. We have stayed at Moderates 4 times, and are going back in June.

[BostonTigger]

I doubt that Disney would give up such a huge niche, I for one can't afford the Deluxe rates and I sure don't want to spend time at the All-Stars.

[disboo]

Put me down as another moderate lover. On a couple of occasions I have stayed at deluxes, and boy were they great! But, I have been just as impressed at the moderates - particularly PO-FQ. The landscaping, the quiet pools, the great view from our window, the lobby and the lounges were all wonderful - at a proce I could afford.

I have stayed once at the AS, and it was fine. The grounds are nicer than a cheap hotel, and the bustling food court was actually pleasant, but it was not my idea of a bit of a splurge, which I want at WDW.

I have stayed offsite (DTD and completely offsite) at nice hotels, too, and had a good, but different type of experience - not the total Disney immersion I prefer.

I can'y believe they would cut out their entire middle-of-the-road customer, like me and my family.

[marty3d]

I also don't believe the moderates will disappear. I was at WDW last week and I asked about PO-FQ and was told that it was scheduled for re-opening in November. It is supposed to go through complete refurbishment over the spring/ summer.

[YoHo]

Wow, All this from a lowly little theory I posted months ago in a different thread.

I'll just re-iterate I think the moderaqte resorts are great, I just suspect that the profit per guest is lower for these then the Values and the Deluxe, thus they may be the first to see the axe.

[Planogirl]

Wow, YoHo back where you started! :)

I was recently pondering the price changes over the years for these resorts. It seems almost as if middle income people were pushed from the deluxes to the moderates as prices escalated. Now it almost seems like the middle income folks are being pushed even further into the budget category. I for one refuse to go there. :D

It will be interesting to see what happens to the resorts as the economy improves. Will the moderates come back up to full force or will that Pop thing be the next big thing?

[YoHo]

I will gaaruntee you that as the Economy improves, the Moderates will see a resurgence. I think that despite the fact that your average visitor may not have a landbaron like understanding of the show, they know that its better then not having the show. You will see the moderates regain their numbers.

So, short term, I see the mods getting hit hard, long term, they come back. consiquently, I suspect that long term the Values will see the most dramatic loss of guests. People who moved from All-stars to the off property hotels and have rediscovered what they can offer may not come back. Disney could be forced into providing EE just to get their Value resorts filled. whereas the Mods and the Deluxes offer other reasons to stay.

[All Aboard]

YoHo, for what it's worth, I don't know that the All Stars have lost too many guests to off-site alternatives lately. On our most recent trip (despite the parks being empty) the All Stars were filled pretty tightly. On two seperate nights, at the MK bus station ONLY the All Stars had ANY guests in the queues at some moments. And it was not for lack of All Star busses, they were rolling in one after another. The parking lots at the All Stars were jammed. On the contrary, when we had dinner at the Beach Club & AKL the parking lots were ghostly vacant (especially AKL).

So, whatever recovery strategy WDW implements, it most likely won't need to worry about filling the All Stars.

I agree, the moderates will all be open once again. Let's hope it's not to far from now.

[YoHo]

Well, gcurling, I suspect you know what I'm going to say, but I'll say it anyway.

Or, perhaps a graph. note that this is just a theory.
this theory is what is happening to hotel occupancy in the face of the economy.

[Deluxe Resorts]
loose a proportionally few number of guests. many of these guests aren't affected at all by the economy. Of the guests they do loose, some tricle down to the Moderates and some are probably simply not going at all having spent themselves into the poorhouse. (not just on Disney)
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[Moderate Resorts]
Many of the typical guests here have been hit the worst by the economy. Still they value the Disney resort expireance. probably 90% of those still going on a vacation are going to the Value resorts. Since Disney can't keep these open, the backlash is also going elsewhere.
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[Value Resorts]
Values are seeing an influx from the resorts above them. along with deep discounting, they can maintain their occupancies.
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[offsite] those who valued onsite only for EE and E-nights combined with those who see $25 nights as a much better value.


So my theory says that Values will maintain relativly normal occupancies simply because of influx from the Moderate level. Offsite is doing okay, and will likely maintain much of its new people after the recession.
Deluxe while seeing a dropoff becomes insulated due to the insulated nature of those that can afford it.

Moderates get the shaft, there is minimal influx from above and tons of people moving to the Values.

[Planogirl]

Hey, your theory fits us to a tee! We stayed at the Allstars this past year instead of at the moderates like we usually do. I finally agreed to try the Allstars because the economy had knocked us for a loop. If I weren't so devoted to Disney, I doubt that we would have gone at all or we would have at the very least stayed offsite like we did the year before.

I like your theory, it makes perfect sense. Now let's see if the Allstars really do experience a drop off.

[All Aboard]

But YoHo, when reality doesn't play to the the theory....

Maybe it was just perception, but we parked at the Contemp, Poly, AKL, BC & GF during our last stay. A couple of breakfasts, a couple of dinners and one "unauthorized" easy-get to the MK.

Now, I've parked & dined at all of these places many times before so I have some perspective. They were empty, and I mean how. I was so astonished at the sight I saw at AKL that upon arrival I pulled out the cell and called Peter Pirate. He wouldn't have believed the sight.

Boma was so empty, as was Cape May & 1900 park fare & Ohana. I made the leap of logic and assumed that those resorts were pretty bare as well.

But, at the other end of the caste system, the All Stars were jam-packed our entire trip.

It seems to me that the deluxes are suffering more, in general.

[jenfur]

I don't really visit this board much , but this topic sort of bit me . Some of you are SNOBS and RUDE. What about people who could not afford to go to WDW without the AllStars? They are not roach motels you know. I have stayed at ASMu and ASMo and had a great time at both, I plan to try POR next . Some of us are not used to having our bums kissed and bags carried and for the price of that treatment , we don't feel as though we are missing much . Some of you need to step out of your WDW vacation=wealthy families box.

As for AllStars not being much of a value - the small motels in my town charge $125 a night, and I am talking Holiday Inn, so for us , AllStars and Moderates area great value. AllStars are also themed with children and forever young adults in mind. My kids will be disappointed when we stay elsewhere- they think its a kids resort, just for them.

I am glad Disney is thinking of middle class families (I wish they would think about them when they set ticket prices) If you don't like AllStars - don't stay there , same with the moderates. We really don't like the sissy whiner types anyway.

[kozmo]

I certainley hope its not true about coronado springs.:( :(

[YoHo]

Well gcurling, I suppose its possible that the Deluxe are being hit hard. Obviously however they haven't been hit hard enough to cause closer.

As to snobbery, Where's landbaron when you need him?

[BRERALEX]

We really don't like the sissy whiner types anyway.<------wow that was awesome jenfur right on girl

[Planogirl]

Well, I can't afford to stay in the deluxes without a great deal but I still don't care for the Allstars. I personally didn't enjoy them and surprisingly neither did my son. I do like the moderates however and I feel that they do offer a good Disney experience.

I believe that what makes a Disney trip special for someone is really subjective. Some people who aren't rich seem to save and scrimp because their idea of a full Disney experience seems to require staying in a deluxe. Others feel pixilated when they stay in a moderate while still others (including some who are well off) seem to feel this magic when they stay at the Allstars. I don't believe that any of these preferences are wrong nor do these choices make anyone a snob or whatever. I just believe that we all have different ideas of what constitutes magic and I support everyone's right to enjoy it however they wish.

I also support everyone's right to discuss it. Differing viewpoints have made this board the entertaining place it is and I sincerely hope that it remains so.