Please learn from my mistakes [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

DisOrBust

12-06-2006, 11:36 AM

First some background. I am an RN and my DH is a PT. We are use to wheelchairs, transferring etc. Our pet peeve is "Handicap abuse", makes my blood boil. My father came along on this trip as he has in the past. 74yo and with Parkinson's that has progressed to where mobilty is effected. I had asked a few question here prior to our visit. and we came up with a plan.

First we did not want to rent a scooter because...
1. I wasn't sure my Father reaction time and the stopping ablity of the scooter would be fast enough. The scooters looked cumbersome.
2. Didn't want the whole rig-a-ma-roll of loading a scooter on a bus.
3. Would rent w/c at the parks and use the "coutsey" w/c to get to the gate.

BIG MISTAKE:

1. There are few, count the 5 at EPCOT, courtsey
w/c available at any of the parks. If you are lucky to find one.

2. The walk from MK disablity parking and TTC. is AWEFUL.

3. The walk from most of the bus stops is also aweful.

In the PARKS.

1. Rented a w/c BUT my Mom thought she should push. Not gonna happen with a 74 yo female. Both my parents felt "bad" that we had to push Dad around. FYI: AK is a workout.

Finally on the last few day we rented an EVC in the parks. That was ideal to have BUT we still had the long walk to get to an EVC rental. WDW EVC are huge compared to the ones I saw from Scootarama.

Lesson learned rent an EVC offsite. Don't depend on W/C that don't exsist. To hell if it make the bus takes 20 minutes longer every time we get on.

I saw many able body people in rented EVCs, the crowning moment was a family of 4. Mom, Dad and 2 preteen DDs having a "blast" !! They told me how the rented them from scooterrama and took them to the parks in their rented minivan. I also so many morbidly obese couples on his & her EVCs'. I really think something should be done on a national level. Simmular to the H/C stickers for cars. My father has a card from medtronic explaining his "electrodes", I would love for that to happen.

monami7

12-06-2006, 12:42 PM

They may not have looked like they needed them but they may have. Not saying people don't abuse these but recent events have made me less quick to judge. I had a hysterectomy 2 weeks ago. I am doing great but I rented a EVC for next week because walking around the parks will just be too much. I look perfectly healthy however. No outside signs of injury. I went to target yesterday and used one and people give me strange looks. Oh well. I have to do what is best for me. I do expect people to give me these looks at disney though.

RNMOM

12-06-2006, 06:18 PM

SueM in MN

12-06-2006, 09:32 PM

I agree with the OP points about the courtesy wheelchairs not being readily available and that the best way to make sure you get what you need is to rent from offsite.

But..........
we have been accused of "Handicap abuse".

My DD was sitting on a bench next to her wheelchair; her legs were crossed and she was swinging her top leg. Someone going by commented to his companion that my DD was one of "wheelchair cheaters" since she was obviously "not confined to a wheelchair."

That is true. She is not "confined to a wheelchair". She can get out of it - IF we help her to stand up and transfer. She is not able to walk, or even to stand up without someone holding her up.

On our last trip to WDW, we did rent an ECV for my Father in Law, who was in his mid 70s and had bad knees and hips. He had been in pain for his trips to WDW for the past 10 years, but would not use an ECV because he had seen how my DD was treated and he did not want anyone looking at him and judging him as being part of "handicap abuse". He would not use the ECV we rented offsite for him. There was another member of our party who could also have used the ECV, but he would use it only around the resort where no one would look at him funny or make any comments. This guy is not overweight, is in good shape and looks very healthy. He does though, have really bad knees, has had several knee surgeries and is trying to put off having his knees replaced for a few years because he is only 40. If he used the ECV in the parks, people would have looked at him and thought he looked too healthy, so must be using an ECV for some reason other than that he needed it. They would have been very wrong though.

There may be people who rent ECVs because they are lazy, but there is no way to tell those people from the people who have medical needs for them. And, most of the lines at WDW are wheelchair and ECV accessible, so there is little 'advantage' to using one. If someone is just using one out of laziness and wants to waste $30-40 a day, I agree it's stupid and wasteful, but that is no concern of mine.

phillybeth

12-06-2006, 10:03 PM

People may be obese because of their medical conditions. Or they might have problems getting around because of their weight. Or they could have a condition unrelated to their size.

Regardless, it is impossible to look at someone and decide who needs a wheelchair or ECV. It is unfair to judge anyone based on what you think their needs are.

winniedapooh

12-07-2006, 02:20 PM

RNMOM

12-07-2006, 04:12 PM

When I first started taking the carts in stores and renting an ECV at WDW, I was able to walk a bit but had to sit often. I did that for several trips. What happens in the evening however is pain that requires narcotics to abate. It also caused worsening sypmtoms for many days after. Nah, not worth it when all it takes is a little bit of help from a mobility device and I can keep doing the things my family needs me to do for them. I don't care about the looks and I drive around and look people in the eye and smile at them and say hello. I also excuse myself when I pass in front of them as I would if walking. I really don't care anymore what others think as I am tired of hiding in my home.

Go, use the ECV's or W/C's if you need them and forget what others say.

Ms.Mouse

12-07-2006, 04:23 PM

I agree with you about renting ECV's offsite. I really find it difficult to understand how you, as a fellow nurse, could be so judgemental about obese people on scooters. Even obese people can have systemic medical problems. Even obese people may need assistance to be able to enjoy a wonderful vacation to WDW and is it really anyone else's place to judge that?

Please, we need to stop this bashing of all people, not only the obese. I agree getting a scooter for the fun of it is stupid but if you have a need, keep you head up high and enjoy your trip to the world, the store or even for a walk with your family.

I agree. As a nurse, also, I was reading the OP's comments and can't believe it's coming from a fellow nurse!!! We meet people every day who look "able" and know that with their dx's come the question on how they can function as well as they do on a daily basis. The thing about renting the ECV's offsite may be a smart thing to do during busy times because on my last trip, some people rented because their father/father-in-law had a heart condition and didn't want the problem of possibly not getting one while at WDW because they were rented out. I know there are those who get scooters and w/c's to be able to get at the head of the line but who are we to question who is/is not in pain or has a sickness of some sort???
I have to say, I was suffering with bone spurs and one day I just couldn't take the pain any longer and my son decided rather than allow me to go back to the hotel to rest, he rented a w/c so I could be with the family. I'd ride and rest up and then get out, put my grandson in the w/c and we'd push him around for awhile. I didn't think anything of it then because I was in agony but now that I've been on the site reading all the judgmental posts, I wonder who looked at our situation as people taking advantage.
Sometimes I read these posts and think if we all mind the affairs of our own and our family and not that of others, we'd have a great time at WDW, not have anything to complain about there and not have anything to post negatively about!!!! Then we'd come home and say...."Isn't it great that this "large person" or this person with a back problem etc. etc. etc. is able to enjoy WDW like the rest of us can!!! I would take a bet that the majority of these people wish they could ditch the w/c's and ECV's and walk the parks and stand in the lines SO the rest of us shouldn't judge whether they are "able" or not.

hematite153

12-07-2006, 05:14 PM

I would take a bet that the majority of these people wish they could ditch the w/c's and ECV's and walk the parks and stand in the lines SO the rest of us shouldn't judge whether they are "able" or not.

Agreed. Despite foreknowledge of what will happen, my DW tends to push too hard and avoid using a w/c. The result of 1 day of walking at disney? Weeks of seriously impaired mobility and difficulty with even basic transfers for the rest of the vacation. However, if she uses a w/c in the parks, then she looks pretty normal and can even walk through the occasional line--space mtn is a hard push!

Please don't judge strangers as "abusing the system;" there are lots of reasons for needing a w/c. (Plus, my experience is that using the w/c actually slows us down at attractions. I seem to get through a lot faster when I go alone.)

SueM in MN

12-08-2006, 08:50 AM

Please don't judge strangers as "abusing the system;" there are lots of reasons for needing a w/c. (Plus, my experience is that using the w/c actually slows us down at attractions. I seem to get through a lot faster when I go alone.)
A number of people who had temporary need for wheelchairs/ECVs and expected all sorts of 'advantages' have posted about the same thing about their experiences.
Quite a few people have posted that on about 50% of the attractions, the wait was exactly the same with a wheelchair/ECV as when they went without a wheelchair/ECV. About 25% of the attractions, they got on faster, but usually not that much faster. And about 25% of the attractions took longer - somethimes a lot longer with a wheelchair/ECV than without.
So, most people have posted that the end result was that it sort of all evened out and having a wheelchair/ECV did not make much difference in their wait times (and maybe even ended up taking a little more time).

At the 2 newer parks (MGM Studio and AK) all the attractions were built with accessibility in mind. Our experience in those parks is that we wait the same (or even longer when waiting for a wheelchair accessible ride car or one of the wheelchair spots for shows).

At Epcot, most of the waits are about the same (with the exception of waiting longer for wheelchair accessible cars). MK has more attractions that do not have accessible regular lines, so there may be some waits that are shorter there, but often the wait is in places where people are exiting right in front of you. The Fastpass lines are accessible for the most part, so waits in those lines would be the same.

Adi12982

12-08-2006, 12:37 PM

dodukes

12-08-2006, 02:30 PM

I am not denying that you cant see the disabilities, because i agree with most some of them you just "cant tell", however everytime i go to disney over the past few years (and believe me I have been well over 50something times maybe more since i was born) there are just more and more and more wheelchairs and scooters that are rented!!

I know sometimes life gets in the way and you have some surgery and some other so and so but i REFUSE to believe that everyone in that park that has them really needs one of them and i hate to be the one to say it but mostly the people i see on the scooter are all obese, and yes i agree with the above poster that just because they are obese doesnt mean they dont have a disability but my god, it just gets worse and worse to walk around those parks (and believe me this weekend for some reason i thgouth it was the worst it has ever been), i felt really mean and guilty for thinking it this past weekend when we went but i told my dbf on an occasion that they really need to limit the number of scooters and w/c that they rent and let in as well as strollers!!! (this was partly cuz i was upset by the lack of courtesy and being able to move around the people who block everything and i was just pissy!..lol) sorry i know theres no way and i dont want someone who truly needs these two things to not be able to get in and enjoy the park, cuz nothing breaks my heart more that too see a child in a wheelchair unable to enjoy disney the way the rest of the kids do, but i really hate the cheaters and abusers that are just enjoying their lazy, carefree day in a scooter !!!!

yorkshiregirl

12-08-2006, 03:58 PM

Last Christmas/New Year my husband rented an ECV due to a heart/lung condition which has reduced his mobility. Yes, outwardly he looks ok but after a few minutes walking he is in pain . This made all the difference in the world to him being able to get around the parks. Yes we seemed to sometimes get ahead of the line but then around the corner we then had to wait for a special boat/car to come around which did take longer. We never felt we had got 'one over anyone else' just grateful that we could continue visiting WDW.
We were glad to wait with everyone else, he needs it only to get around.
Our observations were that with the aging population there are going to be more and more people who like to visit WDW and other similar parks but find the overall distances too much.
Yes this will mean more scooters etc but we will all be old one day and do we want to limit peoples horizons and make them stay at home.

RNMOM

12-08-2006, 06:59 PM

As far as seeing a lot more scooters, etc. I think that is just because they are a relatively new thing. I don't remember seeing them even 10 years ago at the parks but I could be wrong. The scooters are much more available and many of us can afford to buy our own now so I think that is why you notice them more. I usually am the only person on a scooter but I recently went to a large yearly Christmas craft event and there were about a dozen people on scooters and many with walkers and wheelchairs. I was surprised by this. I found myself coveting some of the fancier scooters than mine. LOL

Really though folks, we do have an aging population. We also have a society that feels entitled and if those of us who need assistance can get it and go enjoy some of the finer things in life, why should it bother you so much? Maybe that is a question you should be asking yourself.

dodukes

12-08-2006, 10:37 PM

hey rnmom, you answered it all yourself, it doesnt bother me that those who need assistance get it, i htink its great that my grandfather can enjoy the park(he is 92) or that you just had surgery and you can go on a planned family ttrip or taht suddenly your dd broke a leg, or you know what i mean, its just the people who dont need it, who feel like heck well i can afford an ecv so why walk and let me just speed thru and complain cuz we cant be the firt to get in or have to wait to the next show cuz the wheelchair limit has been met ( ew had this happen at narnia, i had to stand next to some woman, (on a rented w/c) that refused to accpet that the narnia exhibit only holds 3 wheelchairs and that they told her the next show was in 10 minutes and now she had to wait for the one after that)...this is just annoying and like i said i dont want anyone to be limited and yes i will be old one day but it really irks me cuz you could tell by some of the attitudes that they expect their rented wheelchairs to get them special priviliges, i am glad that they have made the new parks fully accesible so that it cuts back on the cheating of the system.

monami7

12-08-2006, 11:14 PM

I am just hoping that people don't judge me too much next week. I am going to have fun. By the way I also cannot ride the same rides as usual so it does even out I guess.

kaytieeldr

12-09-2006, 07:26 AM

or you know what i mean, its just the people who dont need it, Unless you are involved in a specific person's life, or their medical care/treatment, you don't known (and it's none of anybody's business) who assistance.

Nobody here knows me (well, I think maybe dclfun knows of me, since we have a mutual friend :)) but here goes:
Yes, I'm obese (visible)
Even before now:
I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis about fifteen years ago (invisible to others).
I have dislocated my knee probably a dozen or so times in my adult life - I'm clumsy, I fall (invisible to others - unless you see me fall).
I broke my hip recently (invisible to others).
I've had several infections in my leg in the last couple of years (invisible unless I wear shorts - a view I would NEVER inflict on the public!)
One leg is shorter than the other (limp visible)
Walking for more than twenty minutes is painful (tears visible)

I pay the same price for my park admission as anybody else who buys the same type ticket.

I can either spend twenty minutes a day at a park (and that includes walking from and to transportation), or I can, yes, rent a mobility assistance device so that I can enjoy the full day at a park or parks. Unless I barrel into another Guest (which I feel entitled to do in the wheelchair lane outside The Land pavilion, although cooler minds with disagree with me ;)), how are MY needs the concern of ANYONE else?

dodukes

12-09-2006, 08:49 AM

Unless you are involved in a specific person's life, or their medical care/treatment, you don't known (and it's none of anybody's business) who assistance.

Nobody here knows me (well, I think maybe dclfun knows of me, since we have a mutual friend :)) but here goes:
Yes, I'm obese (visible)
Even before now:
I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis about fifteen years ago (invisible to others).
I have dislocated my knee probably a dozen or so times in my adult life - I'm clumsy, I fall (invisible to others - unless you see me fall).
I broke my hip recently (invisible to others).
I've had several infections in my leg in the last couple of years (invisible unless I wear shorts - a view I would NEVER inflict on the public!)
One leg is shorter than the other (limp visible)
Walking for more than twenty minutes is painful (tears visible)

I pay the same price for my park admission as anybody else who buys the same type ticket.

I can either spend twenty minutes a day at a park (and that includes walking from and to transportation), or I can, yes, rent a mobility assistance device so that I can enjoy the full day at a park or parks. Unless I barrel into another Guest (which I feel entitled to do in the wheelchair lane outside The Land pavilion, although cooler minds with disagree with me ;)), how are MY needs the concern of ANYONE else?

Since you chose to quote my post Ill reply here, like i said in my two other posts, I cant TELL who needs it or not but i'm SURE that not all who are on them need it. I dont go up to people and ask like you said first that is rude and its really NONE of my business, however i AM entitled to find it annoying that there is 1000 w/c, ecv's, strollers, all clogging up the lane at the same time, that is just my opinion, is it a fair opinion , probably not, but i do not run arouind insulting people or making comment to them because I DO NOT KNOW THEM!

Cheshire Figment

12-09-2006, 08:56 AM

I think this whole thing boils down to a few points.

1. There are people with "invisible" disabilities.

2. There are people who abuse the system.

3. Disney tries to give all people, disabled or not, equal access.

4. The ADA does not permit requiring medical proof of a disability for access.

5. If a person is in a wheelchair or ECV Disney tries to have them have the same wait time as a person not using one; most of the time the wait times are the same, soemtimes shorter and sometimes longer.

6. And yes, I would be more than willing to give anyone who asks either or both of the ECVs I own if they will also accept the disabilities which make me need them in the first place.

And I think that this summarizes just about everything (except strollers which are another matter entirely) which has been discussed in this thread.

dodukes

12-09-2006, 09:06 AM

appleorchard

12-10-2006, 04:47 PM

I'm also an RN and my DH used an ECV this last week at Disney. What we learned was amazing. We learned:
1. That people walk directly in front of your ECV and expect you to stop on a dime
2. That people push into the elevator in front of you as if you weren't even there.
3. That people refuse to let you "merge" into traffic like anyone else,making you wait until there's no one coming in any direction

Maybe the people who do these kinds of things think he doesn't "deserve" to be on an ECV because he's only 60 and not visibly ill to the untrained eye. He can get off his scooter and walk or stand when necessary.In reality, he has life threatening disease that an RN who looked closely would recognize--his color is very poor and his breathing is labored. And he also LOOKS overweight, although, in reality, he is not overweight at all: he has ascites(fluid in his abdomen).
I saw only a few people "abusing" ECVS by riding them too fast or without consideration for other people. I saw far more people behave in the rudest way possible towards anyone using one. And it is true that most rides are W/C accessible and using one rarely, if ever, gets you on a ride in front of anyone. And any time you save getting on a ride "first" is made up by the fact that ECVS are the last out of most rides, simply because no one will stop and let them get in line.
I'm ashamed that an RN would think the way the original posters does. We're taught to be nonjudgmental and that many handicaps aren't visible.
We're very grateful we were able to make this trip; only the ECV made it possible. When he was hospitalizsed last month I never thought we'd be able to keep our appointment with the Mouse. I did many things alone while he rested at the hotel but it was still a great trip. And some people were wonderful, holding elevators and doors without being asked. For many, though, being in a W/C or an ECV means becoming invisible to much of the population.

SueM in MN

12-10-2006, 05:16 PM

cat_herder

12-12-2006, 01:29 AM

I'm also an RN and my DH used an ECV this last week at Disney. What we learned was amazing. We learned:
1. That people walk directly in front of your ECV and expect you to stop on a dime
2. That people push into the elevator in front of you as if you weren't even there.
3. That people refuse to let you "merge" into traffic like anyone else,making you wait until there's no one coming in any direction

Yes, yes, yes. I've had all these things happen to me and I've only been on my scooter a very short time.

I'm going to be using a scooter in the park for the first time this coming week. I'm able to walk but only for a short distance before the pain in my back and hip starts and just gets worst as I go. I'm fortunate that I will be able to get out of the scooter for short times like going to the bathroom or getting on a ride. I have no trouble with waiting in a line with everyone else to get on the ride as long as I don't have to stand.

I used the scooter for the first time in public at a convention in August and I was amazed at the number of people who cut in front of me at the convention and then complained about my chair. The chair doesn’t stop on a dime, it takes a few second to stop and when people cut in front of my by less the a foot chances are they are going to get hit or come close to it. And people were cutting in front of me every 2-3 minutes, sometimes 6-8 people in a row. Well every time someone does that, I have to stop the chair and that causes the people behind me to have to stop and then they complain about me being so slow. I’m slow because I’m trying hard not to hit you when you come around me and step directly in front of me. Not to mention being hit in the back, head and face with assorted bags, elbows, packages and other things.

If you really feel you must say something about the chair or the slowness of it or whatever, go ahead, I’ve heard it before and I’ve quickly reached the point I don’t care. For once I’m not in pain from my back or hip or practically laying on the road from being out of breath just walking 20 feet. .

Dianne

hematite153

12-12-2006, 01:55 PM

hematite153

12-12-2006, 02:08 PM

I have no trouble with waiting in a line with everyone else to get on the ride as long as I don't have to stand.
...And people were cutting in front of me every 2-3 minutes, sometimes 6-8 people in a row. Well every time someone does that, I have to stop the chair and that causes the people behind me to have to stop and then they complain about me being so slow. I’m slow because I’m trying hard not to hit you when you come around me and step directly in front of me.

Watch out for the queue lines. I find that unless I am willing to physically block them people think that it is acceptable to dart around my DW and I when I am pushing her in the w/c and we do not move the instant the person in front of us moves an inch. It is difficult to strike a balance between staying far enough back from the people in front of you and being close enough for the people behind you not to complain.

Sorry--I think I'm in a bad mood. I have appreciated all of the people who have spoken out on behalf of those with invisible disabilities. However, the constant need to defend one-self against people who should know better is wearing. The child in the wheelchair grows into the adult in the chair. In some cases a person's disability is such that in daily life they can manage it well enough to be nearly invisible. However, enjoying disney often conflicts with simple management techniques such as, driving (even when the destination is close), or avoiding physical endurance tasks. So, rented w/cs and ecvs allow everyone to participate and can be another form of disability management. Argh! Thank you again to all who understand this.

appleorchard

12-12-2006, 05:38 PM

For some reason, that's the one that sticks in my mind too. Maybe because, despite the big wheelchair symbols drawn on it, people were using it as a shortcut to avoid the "walking" path which was full of , of all things,walkers! And then they'd look at us like we were in their way--on the handicapped ramp!

minkydog

12-12-2006, 06:00 PM

My family will be going to WDW Jan2, with my 11yo in his w/c and me & DH sharing an ECV(oh, the horror :faint: ) If I could figure out a way for us to use TWO ecvs while pushing son's w/c , we would. DH has an invisible disability, stage 4 lung disease. His stamina is profoundly affected. I broke my leg at Thanksgiving and will likely be in a walking cast. THerefore we will take turns walking and riding and resting and pushing a w/c . I'm prepared to get "the look"--I've already gotten it a time or two in the grocery store when I used their ECV. :rolleyes:

And oh yes--I'm obese. Does that mean I shouldn't enjoy myself? (note to self--look properly apologetic for being over-weight in front of strangers as i ride my ECV through the parks :moped: )

Fore2213

12-15-2006, 01:58 PM

I am not bothered by the scooters in the parks at all....i just walk right around them. My biggest problem is this.....i was there for 6 days last week. I took 14 bus trips to and from various places in WDW. We had to wait for scooters to be loaded on 12.....yes 12 of these trips. I think Disney should have conversion vans in the travel loops to facilitate these scooters. I took note of several load times and one inept driver took 14 minutes to complete this task. The person on this particular scooter got up and practially jumped into the bus (with his SIX other family members). People on this board may not say it, but people in line with me werent too happy. Disney has outstanding communitcation technology.....they can do this, if a person has a scooter, let front desk know (or someone at a park) that they are leaving, and radio ahead for a conversion van with a lift. There are clearly enough scooters where Disney could have vans constantly in the loop. Who wants to get out of Illuminations, be in line knowing there are 3 bus loads of people ahead of you, get the the front of the line and see a scooter pull up and have to wait another 10 minutes (if you are lucky) when there could be a scooter "pick up " spot just like the other bus stops. YES, i agree most people who use them need them, but too many others abuse the system. JMHO!!!!!

As far as seeing a lot more scooters, etc. I think that is just because they are a relatively new thing. I don't remember seeing them even 10 years ago at the parks but I could be wrong. The scooters are much more available and many of us can afford to buy our own now so I think that is why you notice them more. I usually am the only person on a scooter but I recently went to a large yearly Christmas craft event and there were about a dozen people on scooters and many with walkers and wheelchairs. I was surprised by this. I found myself coveting some of the fancier scooters than mine. LOL

Really though folks, we do have an aging population. We also have a society that feels entitled and if those of us who need assistance can get it and go enjoy some of the finer things in life, why should it bother you so much? Maybe that is a question you should be asking yourself.

RNMOM

12-15-2006, 02:09 PM

Fore,

I totally agree with you. From the other side of the coin, I HATE to delay people boarding just for my scooter's loading. It is very embarrassing and intimidating to be trying to maneuver the dang thing and wait for it to be locked down and then have all those other folks less than happy.

I am a nurse so the last trip we stayed at the Dolphin. I didn't think I would like it but we loved it and since our favorite parks are MGM and Epcot, I didn't take transport, I scooted the walkways. DH took the boat and I beat him back from MGM. Maybe not as safe at night but I didn't encounter any problems.

A designated transport for scooters would be a great idea and would move the other people along much faster. If the bus were designed with "parking places" you just pull into and not have to parallel park, it would load much faster also.

Maybe we need to speak with a bus designer. Hmmmmmm

I appreciate your candor and your polite way of stating your opinion.

hematite153

12-15-2006, 03:17 PM

In order to avoid holding people up when boarding the bus, my DW will usually get up and walk on while I carry the chair after her. (We can often do this faster than many people lift their strollers.) Yet, somehow this seems to draw more disgruntled looks from people who decide that we must be scamming the system in using the chair. It's difficult to balance the competing pressures from strangers. However, I will keep your comments in mind and error on the side of boarding quickly over defending our right to use the chair.

Adi12982

12-15-2006, 05:43 PM

I am not bothered by the scooters in the parks at all....i just walk right around them. My biggest problem is this.....i was there for 6 days last week. I took 14 bus trips to and from various places in WDW. We had to wait for scooters to be loaded on 12.....yes 12 of these trips. I think Disney should have conversion vans in the travel loops to facilitate these scooters. I took note of several load times and one inept driver took 14 minutes to complete this task. The person on this particular scooter got up and practially jumped into the bus (with his SIX other family members). People on this board may not say it, but people in line with me werent too happy. Disney has outstanding communitcation technology.....they can do this, if a person has a scooter, let front desk know (or someone at a park) that they are leaving, and radio ahead for a conversion van with a lift. There are clearly enough scooters where Disney could have vans constantly in the loop. Who wants to get out of Illuminations, be in line knowing there are 3 bus loads of people ahead of you, get the the front of the line and see a scooter pull up and have to wait another 10 minutes (if you are lucky) when there could be a scooter "pick up " spot just like the other bus stops. YES, i agree most people who use them need them, but too many others abuse the system. JMHO!!!!!

The people in the wheelchair or scooters would like this too and may even have less wait (only so many wheelchairs fit on one bus). I think it is silly for people in line to get upset, I do not mean to offend you, but these people may not be able to walk and it is not their fault Disney doesn't remedy the situation. My brother is in a WC and cannot walk, at all, and he feels embarrassed when people have to wait. However, you can’t lift up a chair and tie it in with a full bus. Even if we are not with him we don't mind waiting for a person in a WC to get on, my kindness and patience just may make someone else’s trip better and sure makes mine better (no aggravation to deal with).

Another problem is that not all of the bus drivers seem to be trained in tying down the chairs - last time we were there my mom had to show the bus driver what to do!

I do, however, agree that some people abuse the system. . . but since we don’t know who does, you can’t really do anything about it. Plus it would be against ADA for Disney to ask for proof of disability.

lovethattink

12-16-2006, 07:46 AM

SueM in MN

12-16-2006, 08:17 AM

Last weekend we saw possible signs of scooter abuse. There was a family of at least 8, all different ages, all using scooters rented from Disney. Instead of having their last name, they had "Epcot Brigade" on their scooters. They formed a huge line as they traveled around Epcot single file.
It sounds like these people were curteous enough to ride single file and they probably had signs so people knew they were all together and would not 'break up' their group.

Multiple people (and preplanning enough to have a sign) doesn't necessarily mean possible scooter abuse.
On our gamily trip in March, we had a total of 5 people who could (and some should) have been using scooters/wheelchairs. My yougest DD, of course, was using her wheelchair. My FIL had very bad hips and knees and did rent an ECV from a number of parks. My MIL has bad feet and has used orthotics in her shoes for years; her doctor has told her to avoid walking long distances, but she doesn't feel she's 'bad' enough to use an ECV. One member of our party has very bad knees; he's only 40, but has had seceral knee surgeries and is preparing for knee surgery soon. He used an ECV rented from an outside company, but would not use it in the parks because of 'the looks', so he was in a great deal of pain many days. ANother member has had a foot injury and was in quite a bit of pain from her foot, but would not think to rent an ECV. So, if they all had ECVs, someone looking at us might have thought that many people in one party might be possible signs of abuse.

I think people need to understand that it is expensive to rent ECVs and that there is little 'advantage' to having an ECV or wheelchair, except having a place with you to sit down. Most of the people who use wheelchairs/ECVs regularly in the parks know that the wait most of the time is simila, so we don't understand why everyone thinks we have all these advantages that someone would want.
I do agree that there aren't enough courtesy wheelchairs in the parking lot, and it can be quite a walk from the handicap lot to the nearest mode of transportation. Last Sunday we were at MK and the people in front of us talked to the parking lot attendants. They were motioned to continue moving towards handicap parking, but after talking to the attendant, he parked them at the end of the row closest to the tram. They had a nice short walk to the tram. When I saw them going up the ramp of the monorail, their labored gait was obvious. I think they were very wise to ask to park where they did. It really was alot less walking for them.
::yes::
agree.
Actually, the official WDW Guidebooks for Guests with Disabilities suggests exactly that if the guest is able to step up to get onto the tram. That will be a much shorter walk and save the handicapped parking spots for people who are traveling with wheelchairs/ECV or people who (for whatever reason) can't use the trams. They have no choice but to park in the handicapped parking because the trams are not accessible. So, it's a 'win-win' situation.

kandeebunny

12-16-2006, 06:02 PM

Sometimes we can't see someone's handicap. Those who abuse the system also make my blood boil, especially as I push my brother around, whom we have to physically carry onto most rides (the one's I consider abusing the system are those that are sharing the chair, and saying whose turn is it to ride now. . . etc. I don't judge if I simply cannot see what is wrong, because I know better than that), BUT I have a feeling Karma may bite them in the behind one day. . . . It is a big lie to tell and it may come to haunt them one day, and even if it doesn't they told a big lie!

my mother and I do this. If we are both fairly well that morning, one will walk and the other will ride and we will switch through out the day. Mom has a heart condition that causes her not to have a lot of stamina and I have multipoe joint/bone issues. We can both walk for short times. My braces and meds are so expensive that we try to save where ever we can, so if one day we can save $40 by splitting an ECV that is big to us, that is 1/2 of one of my meds for the month! Though more often than not we are both in ECV's and both look perfectly healthy.

I refuse (though it has been reccomended) to get an ecv for everday use. I am 23, I do not want to. I already get people (strangers) in parking lots yelling at me for using MY handicapped parking placard (again don't want plates due to some days I can make that extra walk)

lovethattink

12-17-2006, 07:49 AM

It sounds like these people were curteous enough to ride single file and they probably had signs so people knew they were all together and would not 'break up' their group.

.

I forgot to mention that a man about 40ish and a teenager, came sprinting from the bathroom by test track then mounted their skooters and caught up with the rest of their party.

zumbergc

12-17-2006, 12:26 PM

I forgot to mention that a man about 40ish and a teenager, came sprinting from the bathroom by test track then mounted their skooters and caught up with the rest of their party.

But what you may not know could be one of the following situations.
Person with limited stamina, could have been taking a walking break for 10-15-30 minutes they are able to walk. They left before the people taking a bathroom break. When I take a walking break my husband gets on the scooter, so we can continue on our way touring the parks. If we were in a spot where there are lots of things to do, we can just park it.
But genearlly he takes a break and rides the scooter while I get out and walk for a short bit, to keep up the strength and muscle I do have in my legs.

You never know what a particular family's situation is, they could have beed cheating the system, then again maybe not.

lovethattink

12-17-2006, 01:09 PM

the way the 2 sprinted (I mean, running faster than I possibly could, and I'm pretty able bodied) from the restroom to the scooters, I seriously doubt those 2 needed it. Of course it was not a very long distance from the bathroom to where their scooters were parked. But if agility was in question, I would think they would have walked instead of sprinting and dodging other guests. As for the rest of their party, I wouldn't doubt there were some who needed it.

But then, of course, there is a member of my family with a disability, who can run just fine, but has alot of trouble exiting the Peter Pan ride because of the high stepping. And is in pain after walking all day. So I guess I should know better than to judge solely on appearance.

hematite153

12-17-2006, 01:37 PM

]But if agility was in question, I would think they would have walked instead of sprinting and dodging other guests....
But then, of course, there is a member of my family with a disability, who can run just fine, but has alot of trouble exiting the Peter Pan ride because of the high stepping. And is in pain after walking all day. So I guess I should know better than to judge solely on appearance.

Yes. Although I am lucky to still be able to push my DW (saving us the cost of ecvs), my own mobility issues are such that my muscles and tendons are happier after a long run than they are after walking and standing for the same length of time. There will likely come a time when I can run better than I can walk. (In fact, I was only 27 and was training for a half-marathon when my friends first started commenting on the jerkiness of my walking stride.) It sounds odd, but, if you work on the bioenergetics of your running stride, running can actually drive less force through the spinal column than walking.

I accept the argument that some people may use supports that they do not technically need. However, I hope that I never make judgements about strangers' needs.

Starr W.

12-17-2006, 03:22 PM

As having a son with Autism, I know about unseen disablilties. But there was a long article in the Wall Street Journal this summer about scooters being not just for the disabled at WDW. People rent them so they can do the parks and not get "tired out" for partying in the evening. Unfortunately these people are renting them at the park and from local Orlando places that people who actually need one can't get one. That is what bothers me.

daisey mae muggles

12-18-2006, 06:38 AM

Maybe medical documentation for need, just like for a parking permit is in order.

Starr W.

12-18-2006, 07:28 AM

Maybe medical documentation for need, just like for a parking permit is in order.

That would be a good idea, because I would put $100 bucks on the 2 guys I saw at Epcot medically needed them. Each had a leg up on the handle bars, so a preschooler could sit on the foot part, held another kid on their lap and were driving those things one handed like they were in the Indy 500. Wives pushing strollers were running to keep up with them.

lovethattink

12-18-2006, 07:43 AM

Can forget about asking for a reason to rent scooter, will never happen unless the Hippa law gets changed. Nobody has a right to ask a person what their disability is. Even medical staff can't talk about it to insurance, other staff, or family without the patient's consent. All rights lie with the patient. In fact, an emplorer can't ask an employee why they called in sick anymore.

Just wanted to mention, that I saw 2 security guards go up to a lady who was in a Disney rented scooter holding a child on their lap. The security told her that she can't hold anyone on the scooter. That the paper she signed to rent it said it was only for her use.

daisey mae muggles

12-18-2006, 09:02 AM

You don't need to disclose any medical information, only a letter from your MD on his offical letterhead stating there is a medical need. I needed to provide this letter for wheelchair seating for a concert club we belong to. Front row w/c seating at concerts is abused in the same way. Request w/c seating, walk in , dance all night, whew,that was great. The letter we needed to provide, stopped it all cold. Funny you never see anyone pretend they are blind so they can't see the show.

Michigan

12-18-2006, 10:49 AM

I needed to provide this letter for wheelchair seating for a concert club we belong to.

That is a violation of the ADA and they can be sued for that. The law states that you do not have to prove you have a disability.

SueM in MN

12-18-2006, 11:15 PM

That is a violation of the ADA and they can be sued for that. The law states that you do not have to prove you have a disability.
::yes::
Here's a link to ADA information. (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/reg3a.html#Anchor-9800) And, a quote from the pertinent part:
Sec.36.301 Eligibility criteria.

(a) General. A public accommodation shall not impose or apply eligibility criteria that screen out or tend to screen out an individual with a disability or any class of individuals with disabilities from fully and equally enjoying any goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations, unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered.

(b) Safety. A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.

(c) Charges. A public accommodation may not impose a surcharge on a particular individual with a disability or any group of individuals with disabilities to cover the costs of measures, such as the provision of auxiliary aids, barrier removal, alternatives to barrier removal, and reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, that are required to provide that individual or group with the nondiscriminatory treatment required by the Act or this part.
Requiring proof of a disability has been interpreted as imposing elegibility criteria that could screen out a person with a disability. Making them get a doctor's letter to participate or use the accessible seating is an extra 'step' and an extra expense that people without disabilities don't have.
Can forget about asking for a reason to rent scooter, will never happen unless the Hippa law gets changed.
A lot of people think the reason is because of HIPPA, but that is not true. HIPPA has to do with health care and sharing information with health care providers and insurance only. It has nothing to do with businesses and proof of disability to get accomidations.
The ADA says no one can be forced to prove their disability to get accomidation. (see the quote from the ADA information.
Nobody has a right to ask a person what their disability is. Even medical staff can't talk about it to insurance, other staff, or family without the patient's consent. All rights lie with the patient. In fact, an emplorer can't ask an employee why they called in sick anymore.
HIPPA does have to do with sharing information, but it doesn't say it can't be shared at all without the patient's consent. It does put limits on what information can be shared and to whom. I am a Health Care worker. I can share information about patient to other people (including insurance companies) if that information is needed to provide care to the patient.
I can't share information with people who are not providing any care to the patient. I can't share information that is not pertinent to the care they are providing. I can't just look up information on a chart because I want to. I am required to have a valid reason to look at the information.

Starr W.

12-19-2006, 07:16 AM

My main concern is that people who actually need one of those scooters are able to get one.

phillybeth

12-19-2006, 09:09 AM

Who determines 'actual' need? Only the person using it.

Mickiethepooh

12-19-2006, 09:12 AM

My main concern is that people who actually need one of those scooters are able to get one.
That is why it is a good idea to rent one for your length of stay from outside the park or bring your own as I do.

As I stated previously according to Disney, the ECV are just that convenience, not medical, and ANYONE has the right to rent one for any reason.

So either they provide unlimited ones or those who absolutely need one should bring one.

I fly with mine even though it means possible damage and having to rent a large enough vehicle to transport it etc. and while I may use the Magic Express this time, which will transport it, I still need the large enough vehicle once I get to the Resort. pirate:

Starr W.

12-19-2006, 04:34 PM

That is why it is a good idea to rent one for your length of stay from outside the park or bring your own as I do.

As I stated previously according to Disney, the ECV are just that convenience, not medical, and ANYONE has the right to rent one for any reason.

So either they provide unlimited ones or those who absolutely need one should bring one.

I fly with mine even though it means possible damage and having to rent a large enough vehicle to transport it etc. and while I may use the Magic Express this time, which will transport it, I still need the large enough vehicle once I get to the Resort. pirate:

My Dad had his own too, he rented one somewhere and didn't like how it "ran".

Poohnatic

12-19-2006, 08:47 PM

Yes, rent from off property if you need one.

SIL has had congestive heart failure, two heart attacks, diabetes and a deteriorating hip. Her trip prior to moving down, she'd just had heart surgery and thought she'd be able to propel herself in her manual chair. Nope, not happening. Sure, most people would look and see an obese person and think that that was the reason she now uses an ECV. The weight is just a by product of limited mobility.

Personally, my legs look perfectly fine when I'm wearing pants-although right now, there's a bandage strapped around my ankle and soon an Unna boot. Sure, I look healthy, if a bit overweight. However, I did some walking around WDW for a wedding this past weekend and I'm STILL recovering from it. My pride and the opinions of others keep me from using a chair as often as I should.

I won't pass judgement on someone in a chair (except on the occasion that I'm pushing someone in a chair and the wheelchair behind me keeps butting me with theirs-that's another story) because I know full well that my issues are not noticable and that may be their case as well. Much like the people who scowl at my 10yo Aspie when he's having one of his many meltdowns. Sure, he looks ten, but emotionally he's about 18 months.

Suzanne

Starr W.

12-20-2006, 01:51 PM

Schmeck

12-20-2006, 09:42 PM

::yes::
Here's a link to ADA information. (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/reg3a.html#Anchor-9800) And, a quote from the pertinent part:
[i]Sec.36.301 Eligibility criteria.

(a) General. A public accommodation shall not impose or apply eligibility criteria that screen out or tend to screen out an individual with a disability or any class of individuals with disabilities from fully and equally enjoying any goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations, unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered.

(

But the reason the poster had to get a doctor's note was because the HC seating was being abused - so that the criteria of showing the doctor's note was to make sure those that needed the seating to fully and equally enjoy the goods/services, etc. would be the ones to sit there, not those who were supposedly abusing the situation. It would be necessary to be able to tell the needy from the abusers.

I would think that if you were in need of certain seating, you would have some documentation already? I've got plenty of documentation for my leg problem, and my daughter's eye problem. If I need something else, I can get the doctor's office to fax me a letter stating what I need, for free. It's not really a burden, because that information is something I should have anyways, IMO.

Mickiethepooh

12-21-2006, 11:00 AM

But the reason the poster had to get a doctor's note was because the HC seating was being abused - so that the criteria of showing the doctor's note was to make sure those that needed the seating to fully and equally enjoy the goods/services, etc. would be the ones to sit there, not those who were supposedly abusing the situation. It would be necessary to be able to tell the needy from the abusers.

I would think that if you were in need of certain seating, you would have some documentation already? I've got plenty of documentation for my leg problem, and my daughter's eye problem. If I need something else, I can get the doctor's office to fax me a letter stating what I need, for free. It's not really a burden, because that information is something I should have anyways, IMO.

I TOTALLY disagree with you. and so fortunately does the Law.

It is simply no ones business what my medical conditions may be. I Hate that there is the abuse there is, it certainly says a lot about our society and human nature. but it is still not right to put yet a further burden on the disabled to make THEM Prove they need something. and exactly what condition requires it etc.
as I say the law forbids that, at least for the present though it seems privacy rights as well as many other freedoms and rights are disappearing daily. pirate:

SueM in MN

12-21-2006, 04:06 PM

I TOTALLY disagree with you. and so fortunately does the Law.

It is simply no ones business what my medical conditions may be. I Hate that there is the abuse there is, it certainly says a lot about our society and human nature. but it is still not right to put yet a further burden on the disabled to make THEM Prove they need something. and exactly what condition requires it etc.
as I say the law forbids that, at least for the present though it seems privacy rights as well as many other freedoms and rights are disappearing daily. pirate:
::yes::
I was just posting what the law is. It's too bad that there are people who are so focused on 'getting' something that they would knowingly take it away from someone who actually needs it.

I have lots of proof that DD is disabled, but making me prove it every time we need something would not be fair. It's bad enough that we have to live with someone with a permanent disability without having to continually have to bring it up to get the things she needs.

Schmeck

12-21-2006, 04:29 PM

I was just pointing out what the law says as well - it seems to me that asking for 'proof', ie a doctor's note, is what the second half of the section I quoted is about - "unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for"... What is this part about if not for the prevention of abuse? Got any examples?

DisOrBust

12-21-2006, 06:05 PM

I think it should be as HC parking. Not anyone can park in a HC spot they need a sticker. I don't know their Dx nor do I need to. If an MD has given them the documentation to get an HC sticker or plates thats all I need to know. A doctor has deamed they need the HC spot and it becomes a non-issue. I know that the EVC are not just Medically needed but maybe that should also be looked at. I am old enough to remember the days prior to the HC plates and how HC parking was abused badly. That cut down dramatically after the plates became required.

I agree there are people who are obese for "medical" reasons and those are people who a MD would decide need an EVC/WC, GAC.If an MD was involved people would also have entry into the system and possibly get help they normally would not have. Our country on a whole has a major weight problem and sorry , I have to wonder what comes fiirst, the obsesity or the behavior ? Does their mobilty decreased because their weight goes up or is it their weight goes up because they choose to decrease their moblity( ie rent an EVC when they are able bodied)?

For those of you who flamed me "How can I say that being an RN". Shame on you! How many times do you see people abusing ERs? People with lung disease on SSI and still smoking their brains out for example! What I said was IMHO, sorry if it offended you. I want to live in your world where everyone is honest. I took it personally on this trip from what we experienced Example. FOTL. I told the CM my dad could w/c transfer so we would not take a spot from someone else who could not. What happens? An able bodied family sits right down in h/c seating in front of us. My Mom who is also boiling at me for making my Dad transfer tells them this is HC seating. There responce is "So".

The EVCs. We were there during a lighter crowd time and they were out of them. So if you really, medically needed one you were OOL. Thats the big picture problem. Instead anyone with 30$ can rent one, add to the park congestion, and take it away from someone who may really need it. Strollers may bump you in the ankles from time to time but my 4yo got mowed down by someone backing up and not watching. Another reason why medical necessity would be nice. Then someone would be able to dtermine if they have the cognative skills to drive one.

I will repeat this. My father has to show security at the airport his Medtronics card verifying his electrode implants and can not go thru the metal detector. He can't just give them his "word". The system is flawed, again, IMHO!!

taximomfor4

12-22-2006, 09:53 AM

I have to wonder what comes fiirst, the obsesity or the behavior ? Does their mobilty decreased because their weight goes up or is it their weight goes up because they choose to decrease their moblity( ie rent an EVC when they are able bodied)?

What about a third possibility...those slowly became obese due to impaired mobility caused by their disabilities?

Beth

maxiesmom

12-25-2006, 02:01 PM

I think it is very sad that we are even aruging about who should have the right to a wheelchair or not. Most people (most) would not go around shelling out money for a wheelchair if they did not really need one. And if you perceive that it inconveniences you in any way, too bad. How much does it impact your life, having to wait a few seconds for someone in a wheelchair to get thru a line? Or get into a special ride vehical?

And as far as Disney running out of wheelchairs, well they do have a limited nuimber. Just like strollers. And if I went to the parks and knew that I had to have a wheelchair, I would rent one to make sure I had it. Before I got to the parks. And if you want people to show some sort of proof that they need them, what do you want? A note? And how would you be able to prove that your note was valid? Do you expect Disney to know every doctor's handwriting? Or should you have to request a form by mail and have your MD fill it out? Then wouldn't people be copying them and selling them on EbaY?

Sometimes the lack of compassion on this board sickens me.

RNMOM

12-25-2006, 03:04 PM

Oh Maxiesmom, I think there is a lot of compassion on this board but our society in general is not very compassionate. Especially toward overweight people. A person could have multiple obvious handicaps but if they were overweight, that would be the issue most people in our society would focus on.

I gave up trying to fit other people standards a long time ago. I will never get there so why bother? Sorry, just how I feel.

I was the first to jump on the OP's statement and that she is a fellow nurse. I agree there is abuse of the healthcare system but again, if I go into the waiting room at a hospital, how can I know what the story is for each of those people and whether they really need to be there? As a former advice nurse, triaging people on the phone is difficult and we always sent them in unless very certain of the situation and that it could be handled by them at home. A lot of doc's don't have answering services or on call staff so they have recordings that instruct patients to go to ED. Even in Cleveland where we have some really big and good health care facilities, there are still private doctors who won't offer their patients after hours assistance of any kind. So, I guess I am against assuming anything about another person and their situation. I don't mean that as an attack but as an explaination of my beliefs.

We have a society which is spoon fed photos of thin "beautiful" people. We are told we should expect to have the very best and the most of everything from cars and homes to yearly WDW vacations. Is that the reality for the majority of us? No. Most of us have less than beautiful bodies. Most of us are lucky to have a 4 yr old car and a 7 yr old car that run well and are paid for. Most of us are lucky to get a few days at WDW every two or three years. Most of us are greatful for what we have and recognize that it is the substance of our lives that matters, not the illusion. Most of us are happy to be focused on our own family and what is going on in the here and now.

All I would like for myself is to continue to be able to practice tolerance of others and to get it from others in return. I am as valuable a person as you are, maybe just not as beautiful or rich.

*no statements are directed at the OP or any other poster except the first sentence.

SueM in MN

12-26-2006, 07:31 PM

If they did require some kind of MD documentation to rent an ECV or wheelchair, that would mean someone who got injured while on vacation and needed one after the injury would be out of luck. Also, someone who had an existing disability would not have a doctor's note if they didn't realize they needed an ECV or wheelchair until after being there a few days.

emerymt

01-15-2007, 01:34 PM

I saw many able body people in rented EVCs, the crowning moment was a family of 4. Mom, Dad and 2 preteen DDs having a "blast" !! They told me how the rented them from scooterrama and took them to the parks in their rented minivan. I also so many morbidly obese couples on his & her EVCs'. I really think something should be done on a national level. Simmular to the H/C stickers for cars. My father has a card from medtronic explaining his "electrodes", I would love for that to happen.

First, thanks for writing this post. You maybe just changed my mind regarding getting an ECV rental. I have RA and can get around "okay" without any assistance, but not at WDW. But, I didn't want to inconvenience other people with my ECV. Well, to heck with that!

Second, I agree 100% with you regarding ECV abuse. I was at WDW a couple of years ago and there was a group of young adults whipping around EPCOT on ECVs like a slow-motion motorcycle gang. Unbelievable. Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad. People with real medical problems will probably already have that because you need it to submit for a medical spending account or insurance- if not, it takes 20 secs. for your doctor to write one and they won't mind (I know because I am one!);)

emerymt

01-15-2007, 01:43 PM

If you are injured on vacation, just get whomever you saw for your injury to write a little note. Or call your doctor at home and they'll take your word for it and fax you one. I'm very worried that Disney will just quit offering ECV rentals altogether, and that hurts disabled people more than asking for a little bit of paper. Disney already "knows" so much about everyone visiting the parks, what difference does it make?

Michigan

01-15-2007, 03:44 PM

[QUOTE=emerymt;16423932] Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad. /QUOTE]

If Disney did they they would be in violation of the ADA law and be open for law suits. Under the ADA you do not have to prove your disability to anyone!

Schmeck

01-15-2007, 04:12 PM

Also, how in the world can you limit the right to rent/purchase something to just a certain group of people? I have every right to use an ECV or a wheelchair if I want to, and no one else has the right to tell me I can't. Too bad for you if I'm fat or out of shape or lazy. If I want to ride in an ECV, who are you to tell me I can't? Or if I want to wheel myself around in a wheelchair, I can do that too. I don't have to be disabled to do that. Of course I'd have to buy or rent the equipment myself, as there is no medical need for me to have either, but I can get a wheelchair or ECV if I want one.

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.

emerymt

01-15-2007, 04:52 PM

Schmeck, there are all kinds of laws limiting what can and cannot be rented or used by certain groups of people! Let's start with: cars, guns, cigarettes, alcohol, certain medications, illegal drugs, syringes, fireworks, Segways, certain chemicals, etc. etc. etc. Public safety outweighs the individual's right to choose in all of these circumstances. The same is true of ECVs in a crowded place. There is also the issue of "undue burden"- this is why Disney can make rides not everyone can ride.

Of course asking for proof of need would be in violation of the ADA. However, the ADA isn't perfect, no law is, because it can't anticipate every situation in every place. Laws backfire on the very people they're supposed to help all the time.

Exceptions to this law do occur, as in the HC parking example (of course, those laws antedated the ADA). If Disney or some other group would take it upon themselves to lobby for a change (require a HC hangtag on an ECV or get an RX for it) it could happen, especially in a localized area like Florida where Disney has pull, and if they demonstrated there were real problems going on.

Instead, what's likely to happen is that Disney will circumvent the spirit of the law because they're following the letter of it. They'll either raise the price on the rental ECVs so high that folks won't use them, or stop offering them altogether. This is a courtesy service, and if creates problems for Disney, it will just go away. Maybe they'll just disallow ECVs altogether, if they think it's too dangerous- who knows. The ADA specifies wheelchairs, not ECVs (unless there are amendments I don't know about, which could be).

Cheshire Figment

01-15-2007, 08:32 PM

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.
However, whose walking speed?!

I am a native New Yorker. When I was healthier my normal walking speed was almost 6MPH because people learn to walk quickly in NYC.

Disney limits their rental ECVs to 2MPH. My personal one can go 4.5 MPH. I don't think Disney could control my speed.

However, I could be a real terror if I was careless. I will sometimes speed through the parks (especially Epcot) at maximum speed. However, I am not dangerous (I think) for a few reasons. One is I have my own ECV and am very used to it and what it can do. Another is I will concentrate on my driving and the road and people ahead of me and not being a gawking tourist. I have the ability to judge, with fairly high accuracy, what the tourists will be doing. I have had times I have come to a complete stop and someone has walked right into the front of my ECV, because they did not see me.

I am still proud to say I have never accidentally run into someone with my ECV.

I did however, last month, run over a woman's foot. There had been a large group of people stopped on Main Street in MK during MVMCP. I politely asked them if I could go past and when they stepped aside I then started up. The woman, when she moved, managed to put one foot under my ECV and the right rear tire ran over her foot. How she managed that I don't know, since I had been at a dead stop and just starting back up.

SueM in MN

01-15-2007, 09:03 PM

Disney needs to require a note on an RX pad.

If Disney did they they would be in violation of the ADA law and be open for law suits. Under the ADA you do not have to prove your disability to anyone!
::yes::
If you are injured on vacation, just get whomever you saw for your injury to write a little note. Or call your doctor at home and they'll take your word for it and fax you one.
I don't think that would solve anything. What would prevent someone from telling their doctor that they needed a note when they just wanted to rent an ECV (didn't need one)?
And, some people might have an injury, but either not see a doctor or the doctor feels they don't need an ECV or wheelchair? The doctor doesn't know how much pain they are in, so why would the doctor be in charge of whether or not they need an ECV? Or maybe the doctor would agree to sign a note, but the person doesn't think they need an ECV, so they don't get a note. Should they have to go back to the doctor a few days later just to get a note when they realize they really do need an ECV?
(require a HC hangtag on an ECV or get an RX for it) it could happen, especially in a localized area like Florida where Disney has pull, and if they demonstrated there were real problems going on.
Since the ADA is federal, Florida could not make a law that supercedes it.

Also, someone may be using their handicapped hangtag already for their vehicle, so they would not have one to use on the ECV.

SueM in MN

01-15-2007, 09:08 PM

What WDW needs to do is set a speed limit for ECVs - walking speed only. People deliberately speeding/bumping/crashing should be expelled from the park.
As Cheshire Figment mentioned, the ECVs rented out by WDW at their parks have a limited speed.

People who are renting them from the parks can get the ECV they are renting confiscated from them if they "mis-behave" with it.
I have seen CMs talk to people who were speeding/bumping/crashing their own or outside rental ECVs. Their ECV could obviously not be confiscated, but they could be expelled from the park if they are warned and then continue to cause problems.

cupcake

01-15-2007, 09:09 PM

I have extra bones in my feet. I am not the most svelte person in the world, and it doesn't help that I have limited mobility. Yet, I can walk in spurts (not even close enough to enjoy even a few hours at a park). Goodness knows what people think when they see me hop off my scooter for an attraction or to get the blood flowing by walking through a shop. You would never know what my issues were by just glancing at me. But I am certainly not going to let that ruin my vacation, although I do NOT like it. If anyone is reading this and thinking gosh, I won't rent something to help me because of what people will think, please reconsider. It is your vacation, and you know what your needs are and what will help you really enjoy your trip w/o spending it all sitting on a bench worried about what others will think.

I don't know about theme park rentals, but it seems that most people are not going to go to the hassle and cost of renting off site for the heck of it. I can think of many things to do that are more fun than trying to get an ECV onto a crowded bus. Personally, I think the internet is the cause of the increase in ECVs and wcs over the past few years. Whereas before, people with mobility issues would sit on a bench, now they or their family members poke around and find a better way. The first time I rented a wc, I was sitting crying in Pecos Bills bc my feet hurt so much (one of the bones had actually moved and I later found it had hit a nerve and had to be manipulated back). I had overdone it bc I wasn't being sensible and I really wanted to get around. My dh went and got one for me and it was a miracle. I rented a wc at WDW for years before finding this board and the courage and facts to use an EVC and rent from offsite.

I remember seeing a young woman being pushed fast into into the parade wc seating area by a young man during my last trip, laughing, saying "race you!'" or the like and seeming like they did not have a care in the world. We were all chatting while we waited, and she told me she had bone cancer and her fiancee was taking her to WDW before her next round of treatment. Just another example of the fact that one never knows.

In all honesty, this is a depressing thread.

:wave: Cupcake

SueM in MN

01-15-2007, 09:23 PM

I don't know about theme park rentals, but it seems that most people are not going to go to the hassle and cost of renting off site for the heck of it. I can think of many things to do that are more fun than trying to get an ECV onto a crowded bus. Personally, I think the internet is the cause of the increase in ECVs and wcs over the past few years. Whereas before, people with mobility issues would sit on a bench, now they or their family members poke around and find a better way...........

I remember seeing a young woman being pushed fast into into the parade wc seating area by a young man during my last trip, laughing, saying "race you!'" or the like and seeming like they did not have a care in the world. We were all chatting while we waited, and she told me she had bone cancer and her fiancee was taking her to WDW before her next round of treatment. Just another example of the fact that one never knows.

In all honesty, this is a depressing thread.

:wave: Cupcake
I agree with you :grouphug:

One of my friends and her husband took her 2 sons, who were then something like 6 and 9. The family had rented a wheelchair and pushed it around, even though no one was usually in it. Sometimes the younger boy sat in it. Sometimes the 2 boys were running and racing each other. Occasionally, the older boy sat in the wheelchair. But, only when he was really, really worn out.
They had all the 'facts' that people usually cite in saying someone doesn't need the wheelchair.
- children who could walk and even run
- a wheelchair that sometimes wasn't being used at all
- a wheelchair with different people riding in it at different times

Many people would have taken all that as sure "proof" that they didn't need the wheelchair.

In fact, the older boy had a heart condition that wasn't totally fixable by surgery. His parents had been told he would probably not survive much into his teens.
One morning, just after his 18th birthday, when his mom went to see why he had not gotten up for school, she found he had died during his sleep.

So much for being able to judge who is/isn't in need of a wheelchair at WDW.

bzzymom

01-15-2007, 10:52 PM

I think there is a lot of judging going on about peoples abilities/disabilities. I think that there are many people who think that if they are in a wheelchair or scooter they will not have any lines at WDW and think if the person doesn't look "impaired" that they are cheating the lines and such. This is absolutely false.

Most of the time that I ravel to WDW with the kids, I am also with my mom and dad. They are disneyholics. My mom is overweight, and has had 2 surgeries on her feet, and one on her knee. She suffers from back pain often, and though she doesn't own a ecv, she uses the courtesy ones at target, walmart and our local grocery store. She doesn't even walk into our mall anymore, she only goes into a department store and finds a seat to rest in if I have more shopping to do. She loves to see my children enjoy WDW. The only way she can do that is to rent an ecv at the parks. On our last trip, she didn't go into the parks the last 2 days she was there because she was in so much pain from the small amount of walking she did. She was able to sit in a chair out by the pool. I felt really bad for her.

emerymt

01-16-2007, 11:57 AM

Actually, I don't think there is any judging going on on this particular thread, (well, except fot the first poster who made a comment about weight). The fact is, weight makes it very hard for people to get around. Everybody posting on this thread knows there are quite a few people who don't look disabled, but are. I'm one of them.

On the other hand, we all know there are people who abuse the ECV's because they think they are fun or just don't feel like walking. These people are a problem for the rest of us. The point is, the more ECV's there are, the more potential problems can occur as a result, the more likely it is that Disney will take a dim view of them.

Sue in MN, your point about the ADA being a federal law is a good one, but Disney does have parks in two states, which makes it a federal issue. Even better, if all the theme parks and big malls really cared, they all could get together and do something. But, it's too hard. So in the end, what they'll do is get rid of ECV rentals on site, and if that doesn't fix the problem with ECV abuse, they'll just ban them entirely. How does that help the disabled? I still maintain it's easy to get a doctor's note. And yes, we can tell if people are lying about an injury, just like we can tell if people are lying about needing drugs or anything else folks call up and ask about (well, most of the time). But, just having that little precaution will deter a lot of folks from renting an ECV for fun. For instance, one poster referred to an entire family who rented them for fun- I really don't think the family doc is going to believe they all sprained their ankles simultaneously at WDW.

OneMoreTry

01-16-2007, 12:29 PM

My 2 cents.

Our daughter has to have a wheelchair. She can walk maybe 100 yards or on a fantastic day she may walk even a half mile. Until she has a myoclonic seizure, which she has had daily for 6 years. Or gets tired. There's no way she could walk around any of the Disney parks all day, although you may see her walking for a bit.

So you'll see us with a wheelchair and a pillow and fans and spray mist blowing all over the place. And if we need to use the wheel chair entrance we will.

Because if we don't we can't go to WDW. And I don't need nor care about anyone's opinion on the matter because actually there's not many who've walked in our family's shoes. If someone ever got in my face about it I would offer to trade them my daughter's illness for a three hour wait at every attraction in WDW.

(PS And that's why I don't judge fat people any more. Because I haven't been in their shoes.)

SueM in MN

01-16-2007, 07:15 PM

Sue in MN, your point about the ADA being a federal law is a good one, but Disney does have parks in two states, which makes it a federal issue. Even better, if all the theme parks and big malls really cared, they all could get together and do something. But, it's too hard. So in the end, what they'll do is get rid of ECV rentals on site, and if that doesn't fix the problem with ECV abuse, they'll just ban them entirely. How does that help the disabled? I still maintain it's easy to get a doctor's note. And yes, we can tell if people are lying about an injury, just like we can tell if people are lying about needing drugs or anything else folks call up and ask about (well, most of the time). But, just having that little precaution will deter a lot of folks from renting an ECV for fun. For instance, one poster referred to an entire family who rented them for fun- I really don't think the family doc is going to believe they all sprained their ankles simultaneously at WDW.
I still disagree with you.
Although, the 4 people spraining ankles simultaneously does have a certain interesting angle. The person who posted that said it was a mom, dad and 2 kids. The WDW parks and most of the off-site companies do not rent ECVs for use by someone under the age of 18. When my FIL rented an ECV from the parks (and last year from Randy's) part of the rental agreement was that no one under the age of 18 would be allowed to ride on or drive the ECV. So, if someone did have their 2 kids riding them, they were not in compliance with the rental agreement.

First of all, just because Disney has parks in 2 states, does not make it a federal issue. They are providing ECVs as a courtesy (and possibly because they make money on them). If they did not provide them, people would still be able to get them. They would just rent them from one of the off-site companies, like many people already do.

Pain is the hardest thing for anyone other than the person who has it to know about - there are no tests that conclusively show how much pain someone has and there are no tests that definately show many injuries. So, a doctor is not going to be able to judge the need for an ECV or wheelchair - they have to take the patient's word for it. Yes, there are some signs that can be used as 'markers' for pain - like changes in vital signs, but no one but the person with the pain knows for sure (which is one of the reasons nurses use pain scales to have the patient 'rate' their pain when assessing reaction to pain medication).

You are not going to convince me and I don't think I can convince you, so we may as well agree to disagree.

cupcake

01-16-2007, 08:23 PM

Another reason there are many wcs and ECVs is that WDW is really good about wanting to accommodate people with different needs. Thus, I'd guess that it attracts those people in greater percentages than other vacation destinations. In my book, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. So it's a positive thing if the percentage of people using some sort of mobility assistance is greater than what you'd see elsewhere.

And as I mentioned before, the internet educates people who in the past would have sat on a bench during their Disney vacation. So that's another addition to the crowd of wc/EVC users. And we have people with mobility restrictions who decide to retire to the WDW area bc it's so hc friendly. So there's even more people.

On the flip side, we have the alleged abusers. Setting aside people who play with the temporary transport wcs in the parking lot here and there, how many people are really renting for the heck of it, esp offsite? It's expensive: the 4 person group of alleged ECV abusers are adding ~$150/day on top of all the other expenses. It poses logistical challenges: witness all the questions posted on this board. And critically, there is no longer any incentive to using a wc or ECV even if you rent from the parks (which, by the way, have those lame 4 wheel ECVs that are not exactly joyrides). In fact, you may well wait longer with your EVC.

Finally, WDW specifically encourages people with limited mobility to rent a wc or ECV. You do not have to be disabled in the sense of qualifying for a hc permit to rent. Let's all recall the big to-do when DL switched over to the policy that WDW where there is no preferred access. Like WDW, if you can't do the distances or wait in the queues, you have to rent a wc or ECV and wait it out in the mainstream line. People were really mad bc they felt DL was stamping them as "disabled" but it did take away the special treatment, which can lead to abuse.

In short, no one can tell why another person is using a wc or ECV. The benefit/burden analysis of renting offsite or in the parks favors renting only if the positives outweigh the negatives. The positive side of the equation does not include special treatment, and if someone doesn't know that when they pay up and rent, they will find out soon enough. Anyone who's spent a day in a wc or fighting the crowds in an EVC where people play fun games like "cut off the ECV" knows it is no picnic, although it's well worth it if it's that or being miserable. WDW supports renting to assist with mobility even if the guest is not eligible for a placard.

More power to WDW for creating a destination that is so appealing to a wide variety of people. If someone is creating a dangerous situation, whether they are guests on foot playing high speed tag in a crowd or using a wc or ECV in a reckless fashion, WDW needs to deal with that. But that does NOT mean that all EVC users are fakers or that the increase in EVC users means there's an abuse problem.

OK, off my soapbox. I too will agree to disagree, but wanted to get that off my chest!

:wave: Cupcake

Marie14625

01-16-2007, 08:58 PM

Interesting discussion. I am going in November..to help Kim, who uses a chair. She has CP, so needs the chair.

But this response is about me. I work as Kims personal assistant. I am in my early 50's. I also am considered obese..and also have arthritis in my knees and hips. I usually get around OK.. but at times walking long distances is hard on me. Another person who will be traveling with us said that I should consider renting a WC or a ECV...in case the walking is too much for me.

It is because of the way some people see heavy people who use "help" I told this person I do not want to rent a chair. I do not want to be frowned upon by folks who will assume I am using the chair simply because of my weight, and not my mobility difficulty. I would rather just walk and take frequent breaks as needed.

Cheshire Figment

01-16-2007, 09:06 PM

It is because of the way some people see heavy people who use "help" I told this person I do not want to rent a chair. I do not want to be frowned upon by folks who will assume I am using the chair simply because of my weight, and not my mobility difficulty. I would rather just walk and take frequent breaks as needed.
Please ask yourself the following questions. Here are the suggested answers to go with them.

1. Are you disabled (even temporarily)? Yes.

2. Do the people you are travelling with, such as your family, know you are disabled? Yes.

3. Do you expect to meet anyone you know during this trip who may not know you are disabled. Probably No!

4. Do you expect to meet a bunch of people who you will probably never meet again in your life? Probably yes!

5. Is there any reason at all that you should care what these people think about you? Absolutely No!!

6. Will using a wheelchair or ECV make for a better vacation for you and your family? Absolutely YES!

Mickey'snewestfan

01-16-2007, 10:25 PM

I told the CM my dad could w/c transfer so we would not take a spot from someone else who could not. What happens? An able bodied family sits right down in h/c seating in front of us. My Mom who is also boiling at me for making my Dad transfer . . .

This bothers me much more than your comment about the weight.

Your father is an adult, why on earth would you speak for him, or "make" him transfer. If for some reason he is unable to indicate where he wants to sit or whether he wants to transfer, why wouldn't you defer to your mother who presumably lives with him day to day, and knows best what's comfortable for him and what he likes to do?

emerymt

01-17-2007, 05:07 AM

I still disagree with you.
Although, the 4 people spraining ankles simultaneously does have a certain interesting angle. The person who posted that said it was a mom, dad and 2 kids. The WDW parks and most of the off-site companies do not rent ECVs for use by someone under the age of 18. When my FIL rented an ECV from the parks (and last year from Randy's) part of the rental agreement was that no one under the age of 18 would be allowed to ride on or drive the ECV. So, if someone did have their 2 kids riding them, they were not in compliance with the rental agreement.

First of all, just because Disney has parks in 2 states, does not make it a federal issue. They are providing ECVs as a courtesy (and possibly because they make money on them). If they did not provide them, people would still be able to get them. They would just rent them from one of the off-site companies, like many people already do.

Pain is the hardest thing for anyone other than the person who has it to know about - there are no tests that conclusively show how much pain someone has and there are no tests that definately show many injuries. So, a doctor is not going to be able to judge the need for an ECV or wheelchair - they have to take the patient's word for it. Yes, there are some signs that can be used as 'markers' for pain - like changes in vital signs, but no one but the person with the pain knows for sure (which is one of the reasons nurses use pain scales to have the patient 'rate' their pain when assessing reaction to pain medication).

You are not going to convince me and I don't think I can convince you, so we may as well agree to disagree.

Doctors judge levels of pain every day, "based on the patients word for it." But, doctors are also trained to spot malingerers, too. This is part of the "art" of medicine. We get our handicapped plates because they do- we get our authorizations for assistive devices to submit to third-party payers because they do- we get our medications and surgeries because they do. I think we can can count them to do the right thing.

But, the fact remains, ECVs are a courtesy and Disney doens't need to allow them at all if they perceive there is abuse, not to mention the current fact that if the rentals run out, why don't they increase they rental pool? Because they don't want to encourage their use. So, to think their helpfulness is going to continue as more and more folks decide to use ECVs is only true up to a point. If they start causing significant problems for other park visitors, they'll be banned on safety reasons.

I'm just looking for a way out of this that would preserve the rights of the disabled.

LindsayDunn228

01-17-2007, 05:57 AM

This bothers me much more than your comment about the weight.

Your father is an adult, why on earth would you speak for him, or "make" him transfer. If for some reason he is unable to indicate where he wants to sit or whether he wants to transfer, why wouldn't you defer to your mother who presumably lives with him day to day, and knows best what's comfortable for him and what he likes to do?
Thank you, I wondered this as well.

SueM in MN

01-17-2007, 07:59 AM

Doctors judge levels of pain every day, "based on the patients word for it." But, doctors are also trained to spot malingerers, too. This is part of the "art" of medicine. We get our handicapped plates because they do- we get our authorizations for assistive devices to submit to third-party payers because they do- we get our medications and surgeries because they do. I think we can can count them to do the right thing.
Some doctors are skilled at judging pain level and only prescribing what is needed. Some ar not.
Some doctors do the right thing with assistive devices and parking permits, but not all.
Even if they did, the fact still remains that the ADA says a person with a disability can't be forced to prove their disability in order to get accomidation.
You can be asked "what type of assistance do you need?"
You can't be forced to prove a disability.
And the fact still remains that pain is hard to judge, even for professionals. Even for people who in specialized settings like Pain Clinics.
But, the fact remains, ECVs are a courtesy and Disney doens't need to allow them at all if they perceive there is abuse, not to mention the current fact that if the rentals run out, why don't they increase they rental pool? Because they don't want to encourage their use. So, to think their helpfulness is going to continue as more and more folks decide to use ECVs is only true up to a point. If they start causing significant problems for other park visitors, they'll be banned on safety reasons.

I'm just looking for a way out of this that would preserve the rights of the disabled.
Disney could stop renting them in the parks as a courtesy. They could not ban their use on safety reasons if someone brings their own or one they rented from off-site.
If that individual person is acting in an unsafe manner, they could ask/force that individual person to leave because of their actions.

ECVs do fit the definition of "common wheelchair" that is recognized by the ADA.

"Section 37.3 of the DOT’s regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) (49 CFR Parts 27, 37, and 38) defines a "common wheelchair" a mobility aid belonging to any class of three or four-wheeled devices, usable indoors, designed for and used by individuals with mobility impairments, whether operated manually or powered. A "common wheelchair" does not exceed 30 inches in width and 48 inches in length measured two inches above the ground, and does not weigh more than 600 pounds when occupied.

Is an electric scooter or other mobility device a common wheelchair?

If an electric scooter or other mobility device meets the physical specifications of a common wheelchair as defined by the DOT’s ADA regulations, it must be treated as a common wheelchair."

If it meets that definition, it is a "common wheelchair".

emerymt

01-17-2007, 09:03 AM

Sue in MN,
Thanks for clarifying the question about ECVs that I asked two pages ago. It makes sense that they're counted as wheelchairs but I couldn't find that information any where.

So, what you're saying is that you'd rather see Disney stop renting ECVs in order to make a point about not showing a piece of paper? That's what I get from your posts.

I myself would rather have a little inconvenience than a big one, no matter what the ADA says. Again, this is an example of the law not being able to fit all sizes, as they say.

disprincesspatty

01-17-2007, 10:38 AM

I think anyone that truly needs a w/c or ecv should be able to use one. But i also think the law is going to need to be changed to stop people from abusing the situation. I am sure if people had to actually make a doctor's appt. and get a prescription for one, most of the people who didn't really need them wouldn't bother. I am sure there are overweight people using them that have other medical problems and still need them. I am also sure there are people who a doctor would refuse a Rx because they need to walk more.

KPeveler

01-17-2007, 10:49 AM

My dr will not give me one, because I do not need one for everyday use. However, I would not be able to do the zoo or a long trip to the mall, or (heaven forbid) WDW, without special assistance.

I know people who are permanently disabled but do not need a chair except for once in a while. I have a chronic pain condition, which cannot be measured. I say if you need a chair, use it. Wheelchairs are not cheating.

I do not, however, appreciate people abusing other privileges, such as head of line privilege. If you cannot wait in the sun, or have an autistic child and you need to take advantage of the "good times" I understand. But if the line is accessible, don't try to talk your way into a GAC with head-of-line privileges. Don't use wheelchair seating if you are like me, and can stand just for the fireworks, or Illuminations. I can stand for a while, so I go to a normal location and sit until the show starts. I say save the seating for a person who can't stand at all.

taximomfor4

01-17-2007, 10:57 AM

DisOrBust

01-17-2007, 12:25 PM

Talk about judgemental now.

Originally Posted by DisOrBust View Post
I told the CM my dad could w/c transfer so we would not take a spot from someone else who could not. What happens? An able bodied family sits right down in h/c seating in front of us. My Mom who is also boiling at me for making my Dad transfer .

My father is 76yo with a VERY thick German accent combined with PArkinson's, which slows your speech. He defered to me when the CM couldn't understand him. I have been asked to "translate" many times from both my parents since Kindergarden. Now who is presuming???

I am so sorry I started this thread.

My points I was trying to make:

1: I thought that being a WDW vet and an RN that I knew "enough" that we could do well on this trip. This was my dads first trip since having brain surgery and we all felt ok going since it was WDW. We argued on renting a full time EVC/WC but my dad did not want to be a Burden" (his words) to his family getting it on and off the bus etc. I, trying to respect his decision, agreed thinking WDW is HC friendly, knowing there were comp. W/C etc. Now with hindsight I would have pushed much harder for an EVC MY POINT!!

2. There is HC abuse. It is frustrating when you see someone try so hard not to use assistive devices and others who could care less. It doesn't mater to them if someone in a WC can see or if you rented the EVC from someone who needed it. I am new to the whole "disablities" world and maybe you just get numb to it.

3. We as a nation are getting more obese and yes there are many reason but decreased physical activiy is one of them. I will still ask if we are really helping people but not enforcing some type of control or are we just enabling the condition. It effects everyone of us as our healthcare costs increase besides the whole humanity issue. I stand by having some sort of medical documentation a a point of entry into service to adequate medical care.

Here is great paper if anyone is interested.
http://www.nhpf.org/pdfs_bp/BP_Obesity_7-03.pdf

I wonder how many here think it is aweful that you have to have medical documentation for HC plates? I would also think that would be a burden to someone who legitmately needed them but hasen't seen an MD.

LindsayDunn228

01-17-2007, 01:27 PM

Talk about judgemental now.

My father is 76yo with a VERY thick German accent combined with PArkinson's, which slows your speech. He defered to me when the CM couldn't understand him. I have been asked to "translate" many times from both my parents since Kindergarden. Now who is presuming???

You never said that so how were we supposed to know that?

Coming from someone who is disabled herself, it is infuriating to have someone speak to you through other people, addressing you to their spouse, etc. It's also insulting to speak for someone who can speak for themselves. That's all we were defending.

pugdog

01-17-2007, 04:03 PM

Sue in MN,
So, what you're saying is that you'd rather see Disney stop renting ECVs in order to make a point about not showing a piece of paper? That's what I get from your posts.

I myself would rather have a little inconvenience than a big one, no matter what the ADA says. Again, this is an example of the law not being able to fit all sizes, as they say.

OK time for me to pipe in.
Where do you draw the line then emerymt to maintain the letter of the law for the ADA?
If your going to say that we need MD's notes for ECV's then your also saying that we need letters for hotel rooms, concert tickets, bulkhead seating on planes, being able to use rampvan taxis and anything else that would be considered handicapped. You can't just draw the line for ECV's.
Why should the burton of proof be placed on us?
In fact if you want to take it that way then let's have smokers get a MD's letter saying that they are addicted to nicotine and need that smoking room.

hematite153

01-17-2007, 04:45 PM

However, whose walking speed?!

I am a native New Yorker. When I was healthier my normal walking speed was almost 6MPH because people learn to walk quickly in NYC.

Disney limits their rental ECVs to 2MPH. My personal one can go 4.5 MPH. I don't think Disney could control my speed.

I agree. I've been trying to figure out why people are so worried about ecvs "zipping" about when I can not only walk faster than most of them but can even push my DW faster in a wc. I'm Canadian and definitely didn't grow up in NY--I've never measured my walking speed but I guess I now know that it is faster than 2 mph. Hmmn...

Schmeck

01-17-2007, 07:35 PM

I'm just trying to figure out the mentality behind the outrage that some people don't "deserve" to use ECVs and wheelchairs. Neither wheelchairs nor ECVs are strictly for the use of people with HP parking passes. Like I said before, if for some reason I want to use a wheelchair, I've not been able to find any legislation that says I can't. Please explain to me how having me in a wheelchair, one that I've paid for with my own money, infringes on someone else's rights.

I can't see how choosing to be in a wheelchair for no reason would be something I'd enjoy doing, as it certainly would be a very difficult thing to do - accessibility is still a work in progress, to put it politely - but right now, there is no legislation that I can find that says I can't buy myself an ECV or wheelchair or rent one either.

To those that point out regulations for guns, cigarettes, driving, etc, those are for safety and health reasons - to protect AGAINST those that cannot handle it safely. That's the complete opposite situation from someone using an ECV or wheelchair that doesn't have a need to use one.