I"ve never seen so many threads on sharing [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

disneyagain

07-20-2006, 07:29 PM

We're heading down in August and qualify for free dining. DH, me, DS (13) and DD (11). We are all considered adults, according to the dining plan. I'm sure my DS will eat everything from appetizers, main course, to desert and anything else left on anyones plate. My DD will probably order kids meals at a few of our table service meals, although she does love shrimp, so I'm sure that an adult appetizer will be ordered. We wouldn't share at a TS meal at home and we don't intend to share here or pay OOP for her "kids meal" to save the credit. (I don't think I would do that even if I paid for the plan). But to each there own. Some people scrimp and save just to get to WDW and if sharing meals (whether they pay for it or DDP pays for it) so be it. Disney is still making bucks on everyone that walks into their magical land...The more the better. Although to be honest with you, I'm not sure I'll like the dining plan, it just seems like too much food and the requirement to have your plan in place and be at a certain place at a certain time, has me wondering if we'll really like it. Saw that it was free and figured good time to try it out and see if we like it or not.

Now the CS meals are another story, My DD and I have always shared CS meals and we will probably do this again on this trip. I hate to feel stuffed on vacation and when I'm paying for the meal I hate to throw half of it away. Granted it's free this time, but I still don't want to throw 1/2 of it away. That will leave us with a few counter service meals that we can use for breakfast on a couple of the days. Disney has offered us 24 CS meals and we will use the 24 CS meals and probably a few more if we do breakfast. We all like something to eat in the morning. DD, DS and I are good with a donut to get us going, but DH is a diabetic and he really should stay away from the sweets and with all the walking we'll be doing, he really needs to keep some food in his system to balance out the insulin/exercise/food. So it will be 3 meals a day for him.

Here's hoping that everyone going to the world enjoys there visit! :wizard:

Frantasmic

07-20-2006, 08:14 PM

What is sad is that it is the same themes from when I was monitoring the threads last year at this time for my then upcoming trip.

A definitive thread on the sharing topic should be stickied and then others locked.

The fact of the matter is that it depends on the CM who is serving you at the time whether you can share or not. Debating it doesn't matter because it all boils down to who is serving you the night you eat.

bicker

07-21-2006, 05:31 AM

Tidus

07-21-2006, 06:39 AM

Sharing is cheating?? Sorry, I never knew that splitting a meal w/ my 10 yr. old or my DH for that matter was cheating any system in a restaurant.

Debbie

07-21-2006, 10:33 AM

Sharing is cheating?? Sorry, I never knew that splitting a meal w/ my 10 yr. old or my DH for that matter was cheating any system in a restaurant. ::yes:: I guess that that will make me a cheater again. :earboy2:

Lewisc

07-21-2006, 10:54 AM

ITA. The DIS either has or used to have a policy that discussing cheating Disney wouldn't be permitted, but it seems that just as Disney doesn't enforce things like that consistently, neither does the DIS. :lmao:

DIS doesn't close threads on mug abuse, pool crashers, going over room occupany and parents who forget the ages of their kids.

I certainly wouldn't expect DIS to close threads on sharing. It's really not even clear what Disney's position is. I expect the more dining plan guests share meals the more likely it is that Disney take actions to limit the effect of sharing.

So many people think the dining plan provides TOO much food. How many people would complain if Disney just reduced the amount of food? Let everyone pick an entree but serve an appetizer and a dessert sampler platter for the table. Obviously everyone would have a credit deducted. That would take away from the plan but would stop guest from stretching their TS credits.

minnie61650

07-21-2006, 11:56 AM

DIS doesn't close threads on mug abuse, pool crashers, going over room occupany and parents who forget the ages of their kids.

I.

FYI

The DIS moderators have closed a lot threads on mug abuse, pool crashers, going over room occupancy.

Here are a few from the last 2 months.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1169645

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1160198

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1155959

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1148220

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1138495

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1126011

Lewisc

07-21-2006, 12:08 PM

Some internet boards immediately close threads that discuss cheating or otherwise violate the terms of the board. Biddingfortravel is a good example of a heavily moderated board, at least until Sheryl went AWOL.

Those threads were not closed becuase they discussed cheating but because of attacks within the thread.

A moderator doesn't just quote the official Disney rules on pool use and then close the thread.

FYI

The DIS moderators have closed a lot threads on mug abuse, pool crashers, going over room occupancy.

Here are a few from the last 2 months.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1169645

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1160198

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1155959

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1148220

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1138495

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1126011

laceemouse

07-21-2006, 12:09 PM

So many people think the dining plan provides TOO much food. How many people would complain if Disney just reduced the amount of food? Let everyone pick an entree but serve an appetizer and a dessert sampler platter for the table. Obviously everyone would have a credit deducted. That would take away from the plan but would stop guest from stretching their TS credits.
Excellent suggestion! That is the big rub if you ask me (and the main reason I am not at all sure we want to pay for the meal plan!) How many families order an appetizer for each person and a dessert for each person everytime they eat TS, at WDW or anywhere? I think you have a great idea, create some kind of sampler platter of each and then REQUIRE each person at the table to use their TS credit and order an entree. I think that would be easier for Disney to police, it would be the same across the board (not up to the individual server) and folks would not be racking their brains trying to figure out how to either a) make it work for their family or b) play the system to get 3 meals a day out of it. You are so smart :) !

JimMIA

07-21-2006, 01:06 PM

Let everyone pick an entree but serve an appetizer and a dessert sampler platter for the table.I think the thought is good, until you look at the menus and try to put it into action. Disney's appetizers are a) not very good generally, and b) small portions. Their "Shrimp Cocktail," for example is really nothing more than a handful of peel & eat shrimp with cocktail sauce. In most Disney restaurants, we just get soup or a salad instead of an appetizer because of the quality.

By contrast, we went to Bonefish Grill last week, which is a little lower-priced than most Disney restaurants. We got a "Bang-Bang Shrimp" appetizer which was a) wonderful and b) more than four adults cared to eat. If Disney had appetizers of that quality, I'd like your suggestion, but they don't. In fact, they are going the other way.

Lewisc

07-21-2006, 02:03 PM

I probably should have use one of those smilie things in my post. I don't think this change would benefit us but it would effectively stop sharing without having to answer complaints or explain the pricing philosophy to unhappy guests.

My suggestion wouldn't cause Disney to lower the price of the plan. Price out the dining plan. Order almost any entrée and the plan pays for itself. Basically the drink, appetizer and dessert are free. I don't think Disney really expects every guests will order appetizers and desserts any more than guests eat everything at a buffet. The plan is priced on providing a TS meal. Guests ordering less, or even being served less, would save very little in actual food costs. Serving an appetizer platter and dessert sampler would speed up the dining process and eliminate sharing questions. It would ease some of the over crowding at the restaurants. Guests would eat quicker and dining guests wouldn't be able to stretch their credits to include more meals.

The FDP at Mama Melrose is an example of what Disney could do. My guess is Disney might just something like this with some restaurants. CRT was converted to a limited option, dinner package. You can't share, actually you can share, but everyone still pays.

edited to say Jim--I'm afraid some restaurants might just serve salad, family style as an appetizer. Other restaurants might come up with some type of appetizer sampler.

Excellent suggestion! That is the big rub if you ask me (and the main reason I am not at all sure we want to pay for the meal plan!) How many families order an appetizer for each person and a dessert for each person everytime they eat TS, at WDW or anywhere? I think you have a great idea, create some kind of sampler platter of each and then REQUIRE each person at the table to use their TS credit and order an entree. I think that would be easier for Disney to police, it would be the same across the board (not up to the individual server) and folks would not be racking their brains trying to figure out how to either a) make it work for their family or b) play the system to get 3 meals a day out of it. You are so smart :) !

Laurajean1014

07-21-2006, 02:04 PM

Yes, they run a far second to all the Crocs threads on the Disney Tips Board. :rolleyes:

JimMIA

07-21-2006, 02:24 PM

I don't really expect any big changes in the food. The reason I say that is the big appeal of the plan is that it is so broad and covers so much. Yes, it could be a lot of food if you choose to order that way, but from a marketing standpoint it's an easy sell because it is so all-inclusive. If you think about it, there really are very few exclusions and limitations with the plan.

As has been said often, the real focus of the dining plan is to put people in beds in Disney resorts, not so much to put seats in seats in their restaurants. I think that has gone very well, and I think they will continue the product much the same as they have in the past.

If, in fact, certain types of sharing are impacting Disney's projected bottom line (and I'm not convinced they are -- this is hardly Mickey's first rodeo!), I see two easy ways to adjust for that. The easiest - and the choice I expect - is to simply raise the price for the paid plan and raise the room rates during free dining. The other option is to enforce their own regulations, but that is uneven, time-consuming, and uncomfortable to do. It's also something Disney does not do very well.

I'd personally be happy if they just made up their mind what they wanted the plan to look like and enforced it. I'm happy with whatever vision of the plan they have -- I can evaluate it, see if it fits my family, and if so, I buy it.

But I don't think they'll do that. It's a lot easier to pass any unanticipated costs on to us than it is to enforce limitations, regulations, etc.

bicker

07-21-2006, 02:31 PM

Sharing is cheating?? No. Cheating is cheating. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned in my earlier message, I would love to see a (pseudo-moderated) sticky thread on sharing.

bicker

07-21-2006, 02:35 PM

DIS doesn't close threads on mug abuse, pool crashers, going over room occupany and parents who forget the ages of their kids.In compliance with DIS rules, I cannot post a link to a closed thread, but the statement was made by a moderator that contradicts this. (Perhaps that's why the thread was closed. Just as many people are saying that Disney should clarify what it will and won't allow, perhaps it would be useful for the DIS to clarify whether it is permissible to advocate violating Disney's terms and conditions here on the DIS. :))

I certainly wouldn't expect DIS to close threads on sharing.Me neither; rather only threads on cheating.

It's really not even clear what Disney's position is. It is now: Adults cannot use child meal entitlements.

So many people think the dining plan provides TOO much food. How many people would complain if Disney just reduced the amount of food? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: It would be great fun to see the reaction to that, especially if they make it clear that the one was due to the other!

Lewisc

07-21-2006, 03:28 PM

I don't think we have any idea what Disney's position is regarding sharing at restaurants like Kona and Spoodles. The dining brochure gives Disney the right to deduct credits from everyone eating at a signature restaurant but there is nothing that gives a policy for "regular" restaurants.

A few posters relating what they were told by a CM over the phone, via email or online chat really does nothing to tell me official policy.

Maybe it's left to the restaurant to decide if that it's OK for a 5 year old, as part of a party of 6 to share but not OK for a family of 6 to share 2 TS meals. We don't know how many people are sharing to bank child credits (right they'll use them for child meals later :rotfl2:) and how many are sharing to just stretch the number of TS meals. Sharing would be at less popular if the CM made the family use up the child credits first. You have 2A and 2C? You want to use the plan for dinner? First tell me what your children want to order? Let them order 2C and 1A meal if they want to share.

Is the possible crack down on sharing to prevent child/adult credit abuse or is it to prevent guests from feeding a family of 4 two TS meals using 2 credits per meal?

This won't happen but I think each restaurant should be allowed to have one or two "signature menu items" that are surcharged. That would maintain the flexibility of the plan and still allow restaurants to offer some superior offerings.

Me neither; rather only threads on cheating.

It is now: Adults cannot use child meal entitlements.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: It would be great fun to see the reaction to that, especially if they make it clear that the one was due to the other!

bstnsprts

07-21-2006, 03:47 PM

It is now: Adults cannot use child meal entitlements.

You know, I'm beginning to agree with this statement. pirate: I can't use what doesn't exist. This won't affect my still pooled entitlements. pirate:

JimMIA

07-21-2006, 04:07 PM

I don't think we have any idea what Disney's position is regarding sharing at restaurants like Kona and Spoodles. The dining brochure gives Disney the right to deduct credits from everyone eating at a signature restaurant but there is nothing that gives a policy for "regular" restaurants.

A few posters relating what they were told by a CM over the phone, via email or online chat really does nothing to tell me official policy.I think a lot of this debate is about perspective, and I saw a post today that illustrated both that and Lewis' point here.

A lady posted about the wonderful time she and DH had during their eight-day stay at WDW on the dining plan. They did SIXTEEN TS meals in eight days!
I look at that post and my perspective is that I am blown away by their unwavering dedication and stamina!
The poster looks at it and considers it the most wonderful vacation she's ever had in her life...possibly one of the premier weeks in her entire life! You can rest assured she'll be back.
I'm sure some here would read that post and think "Cheater, cheater!" (Not me, incidentally. If Disney lets you do two TSs a day, I don't think you're violating anything Disney cares about. I think her experience tells us more about Disney's real policies than anything the email CMs parrot off their script.)
I'm sure that somewhere there is a Disney marketing genius reading that thread and saying, "YESSSSSS! Eight room-nights!"

bicker

07-21-2006, 04:31 PM

I can't use what doesn't exist. This won't affect my still pooled entitlements. You're mistaken. CREDITS are pooled. Meal entitlements are not. What you're suggesting violates the terms and conditions. When you purchase the Dining Plan you agree to follow its terms and conditions, so no matter how you try to window-dress it, you're advocating transgressive behavior.

Tidus

07-21-2006, 08:30 PM

In compliance with DIS rules, I cannot post a link to a closed thread, but the statement was made by a moderator that contradicts this. (Perhaps that's why the thread was closed. Just as many people are saying that Disney should clarify what it will and won't allow, perhaps it would be useful for the DIS to clarify whether it is permissible to advocate violating Disney's terms and conditions here on the DIS. :))

Me neither; rather only threads on cheating.

It is now: Adults cannot use child meal entitlements.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: It would be great fun to see the reaction to that, especially if they make it clear that the one was due to the other!
It does seem like you (Bicker) were calling sharers/ cheaters because this thread was about sharing. I could care less if Disney separates C/A credits, that would be fine, but for people to look down on sharing is kind of strange. Quote:

It would be great fun to see the reaction to that, especially if they make it clear that the one was due to the other! All I can say is Wow! Some people seem very bitter.

aubriee

07-22-2006, 01:51 AM

As has been said often, the real focus of the dining plan is to put people in beds in Disney resorts, not so much to put seats in seats in their restaurants. I think that has gone very well, and I think they will continue the product much the same as they have in the past.

My concern is that if too many people are sharing and the World Showcase restaraunts are not making the money they anticipate, that being independently owned they might pull out. We love to dine in the World Showcase and a very large percentage of our meals are there. If they were to pull out we probably would not purchase the DDP. Instead we'd just use my AP to get a discount on the room and then use either the AP or DDE discount. I did not renew my DDE card this year specifically because we tried and like the DDP last Sept.

Saying that I'll probably sound like a hypocrite, but we are hoping we can share when we go in Sept. My mom is a very brittle diabetic who must eat small meals frequently. I work night shift and am not interested in eating until around 2PM. Consequently I usually skip breakfast, but that's her biggest meal, so on the DDP I'd order a glass of juice and might nibble on a piece of her toast. She likes to eat lunch around 11:00-11:30am :eek: . There's no way I'm eating a full meal that early, but I do like appetizer type foods, so she'd order what she wanted and I'd nibble on her salad or soup while she ate her entree and we 'd both be full. Then about 2pm my stomach would finally be awake and I'd eat a good snack. My mom doesn't like to eat by herself, but my stomach is not working until after most people's lunch time. She doesn't eat sweet desserts and I probably wouldn't want them either at meal time so we'd bring them back to the resort where I'd eat them at my regular dinner time of around 2:00am. Yeah, even on vacation I wake up hungry around 2am every night. Am I cheap or do I want to cheat Disney? Not particulary that's just the way I eat normally.

bicker

07-22-2006, 03:52 AM

It does seem like you (Bicker) were calling sharers/ cheaters because this thread was about sharing. I could care less if Disney separates C/A credits, that would be fine, but for people to look down on sharing is kind of strange. Quote:

It would be great fun to see the reaction to that, especially if they make it clear that the one was due to the other! All I can say is Wow! Some people seem very bitter.Please try keeping things straight, okay? My comments were directly in response to Lewis' words quoted above them: "So many people think the dining plan provides TOO much food. How many people would complain if Disney just reduced the amount of food?" That surely would prompt the cheaters to use their credits to purchase child meals for their young children, eh?

There is a big different between bitterness and a belief that cheating (not sharing) harms society.

There is no way to have a discussion about sharing, now, without a discussion of cheating, because sharing is one tactic used by cheaters. Furthermore, honest people who just want to share are having their ability to do so threatened by cheaters. The two issues are inextricably tied together.

Debbie

07-22-2006, 08:14 AM

Please try keeping things straight, okay? :confused3

Tidus said:It does seem like you [Personal reference removed] were calling sharers/ cheaters because this thread was about sharing. I could care less if Disney separates C/A credits, that would be fine, but for people to look down on sharing is kind of strange.
It IS confusing since an early post on this sharing thread included the word "CHEAT". That leads the reader to make the inference that sharing(the topic of this thread)=cheating(the topic of the post).

We are four adults. My children (12/15) will likely order from both the child/adult menus. We are going with the attitude that we will do what is right for our family....and sharing may well be the plan. We will share, if possible, at TS meals, and definitely at CS meals. In our case, sharing does not equal cheating in our minds.

bicker

07-22-2006, 08:23 AM

The moderators have asked to please take personal messages to PM. I'll comply with those rules. (Will you?)

smartestnumber5

07-25-2006, 10:39 AM

My mom is a very brittle diabetic who must eat small meals frequently. I work night shift and am not interested in eating until around 2PM. Consequently I usually skip breakfast, but that's her biggest meal, so on the DDP I'd order a glass of juice and might nibble on a piece of her toast. She likes to eat lunch around 11:00-11:30am :eek: . There's no way I'm eating a full meal that early, but I do like appetizer type foods, so she'd order what she wanted and I'd nibble on her salad or soup while she ate her entree and we 'd both be full. Then about 2pm my stomach would finally be awake and I'd eat a good snack. My mom doesn't like to eat by herself, but my stomach is not working until after most people's lunch time. She doesn't eat sweet desserts and I probably wouldn't want them either at meal time so we'd bring them back to the resort where I'd eat them at my regular dinner time of around 2:00am. Yeah, even on vacation I wake up hungry around 2am every night. Am I cheap or do I want to cheat Disney? Not particulary that's just the way I eat normally.

It's this type of thing that makes the idea of every person at the table being required to use a credit at a given meal (instead of eating nothing or paying OOP or sharing) sound really bad. I'm getting kind of worried about something like that happening on our trip.

My girlfriend and I are planning to do a bit of sharing--appetizers and desserts--but I'll always purchase something of my own--usually another appetizer--OOP. I have very bad acid reflux and eating a ton in one sitting will just make me feel miserable so I'd rather just pick at things and then a few hours later pick at more things. In addition, I'm a vegetarian while my girlfriend likes her meat and seafood--thus we compromise on the restaurants. Of course she should get to go to Le Cellier and have a great meat filled meal, and I plan to eat a bit of her dessert, order some mashed potatoes, and maybe another appetizer if there's anything vegetarian that sounds good (not sure from the menus I've seen). But I'm not going to be very happy if we get there and I'm told I must spend a TS credit just for sitting there when there's only one veggie entree and I'm not interested in it.

Having to spend a credit for every person at the table regardless of whether/what they plan to eat would also seem to be a horrible thing when one member of a party is sick. A few years ago--pre DDP of course--my mother caught some type of stomach bug while in Disney. It was horrible-- she just kept having more diarrhea each time she ate anything substantial, so she ate just tiny bland things while out with the rest of us. Imagine someone getting sick like that and thus trying to have some bread and soup at dinner and being told they need to either use a whole TS credit for that or not be at the table anymore.

Anyway, I'm just going to hope nothing like that ends up happening on my trip. I shouldn't let all the talk and speculation on these boards get me anxious.

NMW

07-25-2006, 11:50 AM

You know, I'm beginning to agree with this statement. pirate: I can't use what doesn't exist. This won't affect my still pooled entitlements. pirate:

I think bicker was talking about the rule in disney's DDP brochure that states that adults can not use child meal entitlements (credits). The brochure was changed in June I think. I really think that the confusion is coming from people (like my neighbors) who used the plan last year and payed oop for their kids while treating their MIL, and people just returning posting their dining experiences on the Dis. Disney constantly changes what it offers/sells-tickets, meal plans, etc. That's at least one thing you can count on! :teeth:

bicker

07-26-2006, 06:23 AM

DDP brochure that states that adults can not use child meal entitlements (credits).That's correct NMW, though a lot of us always knew that was the rule, even before Disney spelled it out so clearly.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 08:04 AM

That's correct NMW, though a lot of us always knew that was the rule, even before Disney spelled it out so clearly.

Reality check time. Like it or not Disney still does not have child or adult credits on DDP. Spelling it out clearly would mean providing guests with separated credits. Yes the brochure says you can't buy adult meals with child meal credits, big problem with that is guests are not given child and adult credits, still only pooled credits. Disney needs to back up it's rule by providing and tracking both child and adult credits. Until then people will be free to use the credits anyway they choose.

All these threads on sharing and amazingly not one first hand account of not being able to share. Yes, DDP card limits,(2A/2C) are being enforced, but not one report of any restaurant forcing a customer to buy a meal or using a credit even if their not purchasing a meal. Not one report of not being able to pay OOP for a child. Allot of misinformation is being given to people about what you can or can't do with DDP. Flexibility is not going to change as long as you stay within your card limit. Yes the credits will at some point be separated, but until then use them as pooled. People need to remember as big as Disney is, they need you, you don't need them. For those worried about being called a cheat, just remember it's just somebody's opinion, and like a@#$'s and elbows everybody's got one. Have fun with DDP and maximize it so that it works best for you and your family.

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 08:28 AM

Reality check time. Like it or not Disney still does not have child or adult credits on DDP. Spelling it out clearly would mean providing guests with separated credits. Yes the brochure says you can't buy adult meals with child meal credits, big problem with that is guests are not given child and adult credits, still only pooled credits. Disney needs to back up it's rule by providing and tracking both child and adult credits. Until then people will be free to use the credits anyway they choose.

.

Using your agument that Disney's rules need to be enforced by Disney I guess ...

A.) They should put cameras in every guest room to make sure people don't have more people sleeping in their room than is the legal limit.
B.) Disney should make every parent bring a birth certificate for children under 3.
C.) Disney should sell refillable mugs with LOS barcodes.
Etc., etc., etc.

Yep. According to you if Disney makes a rule. Then Disney should enforce that rule.

Not following rules can really inconvience those that follow them.

Explain your Disney should be the enforcer to the mother of the 2 year old who is arriving in the morning for free dining but has to wait until grandma arrives at 10 PM to check into their room.

Yep. You got it! Disney now has to require everyone in the party to check into the room together. Disney has to count the people before the keys can be given out.
Why?
Because some people who wanted to "game the system" thought up this really cool way to get more dining credits during free dining last year.
They just made up some pretend children and added them to their room ressies.
Then they took those extra child's credits and used them for adult meals at signature restaurants. Wow they were the "smart ones !" It was Disney's fault! If Disney did not want that to happen then they would have thought a way to stop it!

Well, now they have a way to stop it and it will inconvenience many honest people whose groups will not be arriving at the same time during the free dining promotion. Now those people have to wait until all the members of their group are there. They all have to get in line and be counted. One parent can't take the little ones and watch them while the other one checks in.
Now Disney has to be the enforcer and that means all party members have to check in and be counted.

Stepping down from my soapbox now.

Lewisc

07-26-2006, 08:40 AM

You're confusing a rule with enforcement. Disney can, and probably should, just divide the credits into adult and child. They could partially enforce the plan by not allowing guests the option of paying OOP for kids meals, particularly at the more expensive TS restaurants like CM.

Yes, there were some posters that were not allowed to pay out of pocket at Chef Mickey's.

Disney already prevents sharing at buffets, character meals and other all you care to eat restaurants. Disney recently changed CRT to a fixed menu which prevents sharing. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney's solution is to just change some restaurants to buffet or fixed menus. That would solve the sharing issue and allow them to turn over tables faster.

Reality check time. Like it or not Disney still does not have child or adult credits on DDP. Spelling it out clearly would mean providing guests with separated credits. Yes the brochure says you can't buy adult meals with child meal credits, big problem with that is guests are not given child and adult credits, still only pooled credits. Disney needs to back up it's rule by providing and tracking both child and adult credits. Until then people will be free to use the credits anyway they choose.

All these threads on sharing and amazingly not one first hand account of not being able to share. Yes, DDP card limits,(2A/2C) are being enforced, but not one report of any restaurant forcing a customer to buy a meal or using a credit even if their not purchasing a meal. Not one report of not being able to pay OOP for a child. Allot of misinformation is being given to people about what you can or can't do with DDP. Flexibility is not going to change as long as you stay within your card limit. Yes the credits will at some point be separated, but until then use them as pooled. People need to remember as big as Disney is, they need you, you don't need them. For those worried about being called a cheat, just remember it's just somebody's opinion, and like a@#$'s and elbows everybody's got one. Have fun with DDP and maximize it so that it works best for you and your family.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 08:43 AM

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 08:52 AM

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 08:57 AM

A. They could check if they wanted to.

B. They could check if they wanted to.

C. They could enforce if they wanted to.

DDP. Is not an enforcement issue because you can't enforce something that does not exist. Disney does not as of yet provide seperate adult and child credits.

See me on the last one when anyone is actually denied checking in without their whole party. I doubt it will happen.

It happened to us last year when we checked in at the end of the free dining plan. DH and I were checking in .The CM asked us to bring all the members of our party to the front desk for check in. DD,DSIL and our granson age 3 at the time were in the gift shop so we went and got them.

I do care that others are being hurt because of some who are inconsiderate
and think that rules only count if there is a stiff enforcement of them.

melomouse

07-26-2006, 09:07 AM

Using your agument that Disney's rules need to be enforced by Disney I guess ...

A.) They should put cameras in every guest room to make sure people don't have more people sleeping in their room than is the legal limit.
B.) Disney should make every parent bring a birth certificate for children under 3.
C.) Disney should sell refillable mugs with LOS barcodes.
Etc., etc., etc.

Yep. According to you if Disney makes a rule. Then Disney should enforce that rule.

Not following rules can really inconvience those that follow them.

Explain your Disney should be the enforcer to the mother of the 2 year old who is arriving in the morning for free dining but has to wait until grandma arrives at 10 PM to check into their room.

Yep. You got it! Disney now has to require everyone in the party to check into the room together. Disney has to count the people before the keys can be given out.
Why?
Because some people who wanted to "game the system" thought up this really cool way to get more dining credits during free dining last year.
They just made up some pretend children and added them to their room ressies.
Then they took those extra child's credits and used them for adult meals at signature restaurants. Wow they were the "smart ones !" It was Disney's fault! If Disney did not want that to happen then they would have thought a way to stop it!

Well, now they have a way to stop it and it will inconvenience many honest people whose groups will not be arriving at the same time during the free dining promotion. Now those people have to wait until all the members of their group are there. They all have to get in line and be counted. One parent can't take the little ones and watch them while the other one checks in.
Now Disney has to be the enforcer and that means all party members have to check in and be counted.

Stepping down from my soapbox now.

Thank you, Linda, once again, for citing an excellent example of how the loophole finders' exploitations make us ALL suffer the consequences. Some folks just don't get it.

Truly - I only just "got it" when several CM's at CRO informed me of the check in policy way back in April. I was told that this is directly because of FDP and abuses with "phantom guests".

Maybe til it impacts very directly some folks just don't see it.

disney2d2

07-26-2006, 09:34 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if Disney's solution is to just change some restaurants to buffet or fixed menus. That would solve the sharing issue and allow them to turn over tables faster.

What makes you believe that Disney see's sharing as a problem just because a few of you here at DisBoards think that way?

Sharing is not an 'issue' for Disney and if it was, they'd have a rule against it.

(I am assuming that we are talking about adults sharing adult credits, since you are advocating fixed menus and buffets-only.)

P.S. I hope I get a table next to yours when I share my TS credits...

Lewisc

07-26-2006, 09:48 AM

Actually I never said sharing was a problem or a big issue. I said I can't see Disney coming up with a sharing rule. I can't see the waiter saying keep your hands off someone's plate or explaining why everyone has to use a credit even if they share.

My point was Disney could do the same thing without having rules to explain or enforce by doing what they did at CRT and many other restaurants. Buffet and fixed menus. A lot easier to implement and explain than trying to enforce a no sharing policy.

I think those changes, if done, would be in order to accomodate more guests per meal. NOT SPECIFICALLY TO HANDLE SHARING ISSUES. The question may become how can Disney serve more guests per hour in the restaurants.

I don't know why you hope to have a table next to me. I certainly wouldn't ask to share off a strangers plate. I would expect you'd transfer food to an extra plate or to a bread plate. The only thing that would bother me is if you throw the food accross the table. Tell the waiter you want to share an entree and they may even bring it out on two plates. Doesn't bother me.

What makes you believe that Disney see's sharing as a problem just because a few of you here at DisBoards think that way?

Sharing is not an 'issue' for Disney and if it was, they'd have a rule against it.

(I am assuming that we are talking about adults sharing adult credits, since you are advocating fixed menus and buffets-only.)

P.S. I hope I get a table next to yours when I share my TS credits...

grampini

07-26-2006, 09:55 AM

Forgive me for asking, but . . . I keep seeing references to "Free Dining." My daddy always told me that there was no such thing as a "free lunch."

Would you be so kind as to explain what "Free Dining" is and how you can qualify for it?

Grampini
:confused3

groover

07-26-2006, 10:19 AM

bstnsprts makes some excellent points...put me in that camp. What's amazing is that some of you apparently think that Disney and its Imagineers can make an incredibly lifelike Cpt. Jack Sparrow and other amazing attractions but not come up with a system to separate C/A credits.

Some of you are undoubtedly experts on all things Disney. I consider myself educated about WDW but no expert. I do know this....of the millions of people that visit WDW each year, you are bound to get a healthy cross section of the nationwide community. This massive group will include a) people who think that all things can be fixed with rules/laws; b) people who will look to take advantage of a situation "legally"; and c) convicted felons. [No report to support these findings.]

I guess what I am saying is feel free to get on your soapboxes, high horses or whatever you've got if it makes you feel better. We have all lost liberties in our everyday lives due to the fact that others have "abused" rules, whether those rules were clear or not. I think it's silly to think that the rules at WDW would be treated by people any different.

Some past rules: prohibition against women voting; segregation; eye for an eye (okay, it's a rather Old rule, but it was the rule nonetheless). Get off your freaking soapboxes for crying out loud.

Frantasmic

07-26-2006, 10:28 AM

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 10:36 AM

I think we should be a lot more fastidious about some of our terminology here.

If you folks want to have one of those contests where everybody gets wet, that is your choice. However, I think some of your arguments are really terminology misunderstandings.

I don't really care if the "contestants" get thrown off track, but I am concerned about the 90% of the people who are lurking here and making plans based on misinformation from all sides.

So in the interest of accuracy, I will offer up three definitions of various types of sharing, along with my personal assessment of Disney's current position on each type:

Classic sharing - This is sharing a meal between people who are all participants in DDP. It could occur because they are just not hungry, because they want to bank credits for future Signature Dining, or because they are doing a "foodie" trip and want to enjoy as many restaurants as possible.

I have seen extensive evidence of this being allowed, so I assume Disney has no issue with it. I also think it would be uncomfortable for Disney to stop, because they'd either be instituting a special rule for the DDP, or they'd be changing the rules for everyone because of a glitch with the DDP.

However, it IS possible that Disney could change their current liberal policy on this type of sharing -- either by disallowing sharing entirely, or by instituting a sharing charge for those who choose to share.

I think it would be foolish for anyone to buy the DDP if a sharing strategy is an important component of their decision. I don't care if you share or not, but I think it would be dumb to buy a plan based on one aspect of what you think it means when you know that aspect is controversial and could be changed at any moment.

Banking child credits - either by paying OOP or by sharing in some fashion.

I don't think Disney has any objection to this, as long as the banked credits are used for a child who is a DDP participant. If the intent is buying an adult meal with a child credit, or buying a child meal for Cousin Tommy who's not a DDP participant, that's not allowed. I know Disney is modifying their computer system, and I believe the child credit thing will be a non-issue pretty soon.

People who are planning to use child credits for anything but a child's meal for a child on the plan are setting themselves up for disappointment.

"Treating" this is using DDP credits to treat people who are not DDP participants.

I didn't understand this at first, but I now realize this never was allowed under the plan. I didn't think this is what Disney meant by "non-transferable." I was wrong; it's exactly what they meant from the start.

This IS being enforced by not allowing more purchases than the card shows. People who are making plans to do this are almost certainly going to be disappointed and possibly embarrased.

I think if posters would be clear about which type of sharing they're talking about, we'd find that there's a lot less substantive disagreement than some seem to think. A lot of these discussions are: "Apples are RED!!!" "No they're NOT!!! Chevy pickup trucks come in many colors!"

And I KNOW the discussions would be a lot easier for lurkers to understand and benefit from if we'd be more clear.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 11:17 AM

What's amazing is that
some of you apparently think that Disney and its Imagineers can make an incredibly
lifelike Cpt. Jack Sparrow and other amazing attractions but not come up with a system
to separate C/A credits.

****

So, the logic here is that Disney could have separated Adult and Child credits, but they didn't, so we, the Dining Public, MUST assume that they want Adults to use child credits despite the fact that they added the provision specifically in the new Dining Plan brochure AND they charge less for Child credits AND they state that children must eat from the children's menu, if provided?

No, no and no. That's not the logic. I could care less if Disney wants or doesn't want this to happen. If they want it to stop then they must separate the credits. Again, it maybe a technicality but you can't have a rule stating one thing about credits, and then provide people who purchase DDP something different. What if you purchased a refillable mug knowing the rule that it must be used at your resort and just for that stay. Then when you get your mug it has bold printing on it saying you may use this mug at any resort now or in the future. Well you know what, that mug rule just went out the window because you were provided by Disney a mug stating the something very different. Same thing with DDP until they separate the credits.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 11:21 AM

It happened to us last year when we checked in at the end of the free dining plan. DH and I were checking in .The CM asked us to bring all the members of our party to the front desk for check in. DD,DSIL and our granson age 3 at the time were in the gift shop so we went and got them.

Funny you should bring this up now and not as your original example. I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone saying this was an issue last year. Seem like this would have made a hot thread if it was happening last year.

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 11:47 AM

Again, it maybe a technicality but you can't have a rule stating one thing about credits, and then provide people who purchase DDP something different.Sorry, that is simply not accurate. The DDP literature has ALWAYS said they could change the plan at any time. Here's the exact language from the brochure: "Operating hours, menus, entertainment, characters, Disney Dining Plan locations, components and terms are subject to change without notice."

Also, they have made the intent more clear and put us all on notice with the new language saying:
"Q. Can adults use child meal entitlements?
A. Sorry, meal entitlements can not be shared between adults and children age 3-9."

It's very difficult for me to misunderstand either one of those statements.

You can't use child credits for adult meals, period. Go ahead and try if you like, but I think you're going to be embarrassed.

zookeeper

07-26-2006, 12:08 PM

Funny you should bring this up now and not as your original example. I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone saying this was an issue last year. Seem like this would have made a hot thread if it was happening last year.

I was thinking along the same lines. It seems to me that during Free Dining last year threads about the evils of sharing were non-existent. In fact, if I remember correctly there were plenty of threads from people returning from Free Dining stating that CM's were encouraging Free Diners to pay OOP for their children's meals and save the credits. :confused3

zookeeper

07-26-2006, 12:18 PM

You can't use child credits for adult meals, period. Go ahead and try if you like, but I think you're going to be embarrassed.

My problem with this statement is that the CM's don't have any way of knowing which TS credits are already used on your account since they are all pooled together. If, for example, I took 2 children to CRT without DH I would use up 2 Adult TS and 4 Child TS (since it's a 2 credit meal). If DH only had CS that day then eventually we would run out of Child TS before we would run out of Adult TS. By your theory, even though we have 2 Adult TS credits left, we would be refused (embarassed no less!) service because CM's would see 2 credits left and would assume us to be "cheating the system". I think there are too many different dining scenarios and not enough measures in place to keep track of Adult vs. Child credits for anyone to be making definitive statements like that.

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 12:25 PM

bicker

07-26-2006, 12:33 PM

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 12:34 PM

Funny you should bring this up now and not as your original example. I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone saying this was an issue last year. Seem like this would have made a hot thread if it was happening last year.

I posted that in a reply a few weeks ago.

[DSIL and Alex were away (to be honest they were in the rest room) but I do not care to announce that on a public forum because I consider saying that someone was using the rest room is TMI on a public forum so if you want to you can say I lied because in post I said watching cartons and in the other I said gift shop].

And I am not really why the CM wanted all to see all of us but he did.

Here is thread see post#15

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?p=13135512#post13135512

Last October 3rd, at the tail end of free dining we were checking in--DH and I for our room and DD for her connecting room. DSIL and our grandson were watching the cartoons in the Lobby at All Star Music.
The CM asked my DD to have them come to the front desk so he could also check DSIL's ID and see Alex (our grandson) before he would issue their keys.

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 12:44 PM

My problem with this statement is that the CM's don't have any way of knowing which TS credits are already used on your account since they are all pooled together. If, for example, I took 2 children to CRT without DH I would use up 2 Adult TS and 4 Child TS (since it's a 2 credit meal). If DH only had CS that day then eventually we would run out of Child TS before we would run out of Adult TS. By your theory, even though we have 2 Adult TS credits left, we would be refused (embarassed no less!) service because CM's would see 2 credits left and would assume us to be "cheating the system". I think there are too many different dining scenarios and not enough measures in place to keep track of Adult vs. Child credits for anyone to be making definitive statements like that.
I agree 100% with your example. You could very well run into that, even though you would be using the plan exactly as it should be used, with clearly no intent to take advantage of anything. In fact, I think there might have already been a report of something similar coming up and causing a big controversy in one of the restaurants.

It's silly, it's a classic screw-up by WDW, and they'll have that fixed soon. I'm sure it's an academic discussion for our family because I expect them to have the A/C segregation in place before we go in Nov.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 01:18 PM

It all boils down to whether you're an honorable person or not. If you are, then you won't seek to exploit situations where rules aren't being vigorously enforced. If you're not, then you will seek to work the system to your advantage, ignoring any rule you feel you can get away with.

If I only had a dime for every time this is posted. You don't share my point of view, your dishonorable. You don't agree with me, your dishonorable. You see things a different way, your dishonorable. I don't have a counter point, your dishonorable. We look at things differently, your dishonorable. I say white, you say black, your dishonorable. I say tomato, you say tamoto, your dishonorable.

Anewman

07-26-2006, 01:28 PM

If I only had a dime for every time this is posted. You don't share my point of view, your dishonorable. You don't agree with me, your dishonorable. You see things a different way, your dishonorable. I don't have a counter point, your dishonorable. We look at things differently, your dishonorable. I say white, you say black, your dishonorable. I say tomato, you say tamoto, your dishonorable.

Is this kinda like?
Some choose to litter, some dont. Some ride solo in the Carpool lane, some dont. Some lie about kids ages at the theater, some dont. Some park in handicapped stalls, some dont. Some sit in their assinged seats at the ball game, some sit where ever they choose. Some take 20 items into the 10 items or less express line, some dont.

Some dont look at any of the above as being dishonorable, some do.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 02:10 PM

Is this kinda like?
Some choose to litter, some dont. Some ride solo in the Carpool lane, some dont. Some lie about kids ages at the theater, some dont. Some park in handicapped stalls, some dont. Some sit in their assinged seats at the ball game, some sit where ever they choose. Some take 20 items into the 10 items or less express line, some dont.

Some dont look at any of the above as being dishonorable, some do.

Good thing it's a slow work day. We've hit new heights of morality. It is now dishonorable to seat in another seat at a baseball game. And that nun that was in line ahead of me with a few extra items, what a dishonorable you know what. I guess I need help. Could someone start a thread, like the snack thread, that list everything that is dishonorable.

This discussion isn't about morality, it's about people making a choice to use or not to use what Disney has given them. Nobody is stealing the pooled credits, Disney provides them this way. This is what allot of people are missing. I wonder how many of the people who think that this is so wrong, were trying to take advantage of Disney's glitch in it's hotel reservation systems last year. I believe the talk then was is Disney going to honor my rate, not am I dishonorable for taking it. Most of the time big business has the upper hand, when they make a mistake in favor of the consumer, the consumer should take advantage.

zookeeper

07-26-2006, 02:18 PM

You may be right about last year, but the landscape has obviously changed...as you can see from the language in the brochure.

For our May '06 trip, we were told by Disney dining that all members of our party, including our 4 year old, would have to be physically present on checkin. They told me the same thing when I added DDP to our upcoming Nov trip.

Sure enough, when we arrived in May, the CM told me we'd need everybody there when we got to the DDP part and I had to go round them up. Both the DDP rep and the OKW CM said, without me asking, that the procedure was a new one "designed to cut down on the cheating"...their words, not mine.

I'm sure they will be making changes and I won't at all be surprised when they ask to see everyone in our party at check-in.I have no intention of going outside the rules in the brochure, but I think part of the blame for the whole DDP conspiracy/fiasco must be put on Disney's shoulders. They didn't create a system that distinguishes between Adult/Child credits and they didn't (and still don't) seem to have a consistent set of rules that CM's are following which increases guest frustration especially when they get different rules within a single trip.

zookeeper

07-26-2006, 02:22 PM

Could someone start a thread, like the snack thread, that list everything that is dishonorable.

:rotfl2: :rotfl: :rotfl2: :rotfl:

Now that would be SOME thread! I bet it would reach multiple pages in record time! Oh wait, is it moral to bet on thread lengths??? :rolleyes:

disneyagain

07-26-2006, 03:06 PM

It would seem that if Disney wanted to really control the use of the meals. They would attach to each room key the number of credits assigned to that person. Everyone would need to be present to get their room/dining plan key. If someone is checking in later, they would receive their key and credits at that time.

When you go to the restaurant you would have to turn in all of the keys. Example there are 4 of us going, if we go to a restaurant, each person is treated separately, even at the same table. So we order 4 meals, we have to turn in 4 cards and each one has a credit deducted.

If they really want to make sure we aren't sharing credits with those not on the dining plan, they can always set up the finger scans at hotel check-in and at all the restaurants.

punkin

07-26-2006, 03:08 PM

This discussion isn't about morality, it's about people making a choice to use or not to use what Disney has given them. Nobody is stealing the pooled credits, Disney provides them this way. This is what allot of people are missing. I wonder how many of the people who think that this is so wrong, were trying to take advantage of Disney's glitch in it's hotel reservation systems last year. I believe the talk then was is Disney going to honor my rate, not am I dishonorable for taking it. Most of the time big business has the upper hand, when they make a mistake in favor of the consumer, the consumer should take advantage.

Don't even bother. I've stopped trying to convince the morality police around here. It's just amazing to me that IRL I'm considered to be an honest, giving, kind person while here I am "dishonorable." Go figure.

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 03:37 PM

I was thinking along the same lines. It seems to me that during Free Dining last year threads about the evils of sharing were non-existent. In fact, if I remember correctly there were plenty of threads from people returning from Free Dining stating that CM's were encouraging Free Diners to pay OOP for their children's meals and save the credits. :confused3

Just setting the record straight since it my quote that bstnsprts quoted and then you in return quoted in reply. There were a few posts posted earlier which will help explain what I was saying.

Reality check time. Like it or not Disney still does not have child or adult credits on DDP. Spelling it out clearly would mean providing guests with separated credits. Yes the brochure says you can't buy adult meals with child meal credits, big problem with that is guests are not given child and adult credits, still only pooled credits. Disney needs to back up it's rule by providing and tracking both child and adult credits. Until then people will be free to use the credits anyway they choose.

.
To which I replied:
Using your augment that Disney's rules need to be enforced by Disney I guess ...

A.) They should put cameras in every guest room to make sure people don't have more people sleeping in their room than is the legal limit.
B.) Disney should make every parent bring a birth certificate for children under 3.
C.) Disney should sell refillable mugs with LOS barcodes.
Etc., etc., etc.

Yep. According to you if Disney makes a rule. Then Disney should enforce that rule.

Not following rules can really inconvenience those that follow them.

Explain your Disney should be the enforcer to the mother of the 2 year old who is arriving in the morning for free dining but has to wait until grandma arrives at 10 PM to check into their room.

Yep. You got it! Disney now has to require everyone in the party to check into the room together. Disney has to count the people before the keys can be given out.
Why?
Because some people who wanted to "game the system" thought up this really cool way to get more dining credits during free dining last year.
They just made up some pretend children and added them to their room ressies.
Then they took those extra child's credits and used them for adult meals at signature restaurants. Wow they were the "smart ones !" It was Disney's fault! If Disney did not want that to happen then they would have thought a way to stop it!

Well, now they have a way to stop it and it will inconvenience many honest people whose groups will not be arriving at the same time during the free dining promotion. Now those people have to wait until all the members of their group are there. They all have to get in line and be counted. One parent can't take the little ones and watch them while the other one checks in.
Now Disney has to be the enforcer and that means all party members have to check in and be counted.

Stepping down from my soapbox now.
To which he replied:
A. They could check if they wanted to.

B. They could check if they wanted to.

C. They could enforce if they wanted to.

DDP. Is not an enforcement issue because you can't enforce something that does not exist. Disney does not as of yet provide seperate adult and child credits.

See me on the last one when anyone is actually denied checking in without their whole party. I doubt it will happen.
To which I replied:
It happened to us last year when we checked in at the end of the free dining plan. DH and I were checking in .The CM asked us to bring all the members of our party to the front desk for check in. DD,DSIL and our grandson age 3 at the time were in the gift shop so we went and got them.

I do care that others are being hurt because of some who are inconsiderate
and think that rules only count if there is a stiff enforcement of them.

To which he replied:
Funny you should bring this up now and not as your original example. I could be wrong but I don't remember anyone saying this was an issue last year. Seem like this would have made a hot thread if it was happening last year.

To which you replied:
I was thinking along the same lines. It seems to me that during Free Dining last year threads about the evils of sharing were non-existent. In fact, if I remember correctly there were plenty of threads from people returning from Free Dining stating that CM's were encouraging Free Diners to pay OOP for their children's meals and save the credits. :confused3

No wonder you are confused if you just came in the tail end of our conversation.

I was not talking about sharing meals. I was talking about some who made up pretend children.and added them to their room ressies so they could get more meal credits for the non existing children.

I have no problem with nor have I ever had a problem families who are on the dining sharing meals with other family members who are also on the dining plan.

But I do have a problem with others being inconvenienced because some decide to make up phantom children so they boost the number of meal credits for themselves. It is an example of how "gaming the system" has cost those whose parties are not arriving at Disney the same time during free dining. They will not be able to check into their rooms, get their park tickets or their free DDP until all of the members are there and ready to check in.

That is all I was trying to say.

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 04:09 PM

I'm sure they will be making changes and I won't at all be surprised when they ask to see everyone in our party at check-in.I have no intention of going outside the rules in the brochure, but I think part of the blame for the whole DDP conspiracy/fiasco must be put on Disney's shoulders. They didn't create a system that distinguishes between Adult/Child credits and they didn't (and still don't) seem to have a consistent set of rules that CM's are following which increases guest frustration especially when they get different rules within a single trip.
I think you're right about much of it being Disney's bad, as I said earlier. I think it's really a little worse than the current confusion. I think this is actually Chapter 3 or 4 in a rolling fiasco that goes back to the old meal ticket system. They tried to fix that with room keys, and they've just hit one set of unanticipated problems after another...which so far, they've addressed slowly and clumsily. About the time they get it figured out, they'll scuttle it for some new nightmare.

Personally, we use DDP straight-up and we love it.

As far as "consistency," I try never to use that word in the same sentence with the word "Disney!"

Anewman

07-26-2006, 04:11 PM

It is now dishonorable to seat in another seat at a baseball game.
If that seat belongs to someone else????
What would be wrong with sitting in the seat that was assigned?

Nevermind I understand now...

...when they make a mistake in favor of the consumer, the consumer should take advantage.

It is all crystal clear now.

jjohnson

07-26-2006, 04:13 PM

:rotfl2: :rotfl: :rotfl2: :rotfl:

Now that would be SOME thread! I bet it would reach multiple pages in record time! Oh wait, is it moral to bet on thread lengths??? :rolleyes:

Okay let me say upfront, I am NOT volunteering to start up that sticky :teeth:

JimMIA

07-26-2006, 04:23 PM

This thread is getting to be yet another example of why the mods should consider locking most threads at 4 pages.

zookeeper

07-26-2006, 04:25 PM

bicker

07-26-2006, 05:48 PM

If I only had a dime for every time this is posted. You don't share my point of view, your dishonorable. You don't agree with me, your dishonorable.No: If you engage in deception; if you exploit lack of enforcement; if you behave without integrity; THEN you're dishonorable.

You're trying to rationalize bad behavior by asserting that there is no such thing as a difference between good behavior and bad behavior: There is such a difference. You aren't entitled to dictate both sides of a commercial transaction: The supplier makes an offer; you as the customer can either accept those terms and conditions or reject them and walk away from the deal.

This discussion isn't about moralityOf course it is.

It would seem that if Disney wanted to really control the use of the meals. They would ...... rely on the honesty and integrity of their guests. Until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

melomouse

07-26-2006, 07:28 PM

.... Most of the time big business has the upper hand, when they make a mistake in favor of the consumer, the consumer should take advantage....

:rolleyes1 NOW I see where you are (you're) coming from.

JIm MIA made the excellent suggestion that after 4 pages the mods shut some of these threads down.

Lock 'er up, mods!!!

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 08:07 PM

Minnie61650 - I did read all of the previous posts and I understood what you were saying. My point in response was along the same lines. I don't recall there being such a huge "moral" issue about the DDP in any shape or form last year whether it was phantom guests, sharing meals or using Child credits for Adult TS meals. It seemed,(to me anyways :confused3 ), to be a loophole that was celebrated last year. I'm not questioning your honesty at all. I'm sure you wouldn't just make up that story to make a point. That would be immoral right? ;) Just remarking on what a difference a year makes.

Thank you. I am glad that you had read my previous posts and understood what I was saying. :)
I do not recall a moral issue last year either. Of course I usually read and post on the resorts board, the theme park board, and the disABILITIES board so I was unaware about what was happening last year.

I never even gave it a second thought when the CM wanted all of our party to check in together last October.

It was not until I was reading the the thread posted a few weeks ago that I even thought about it again.

I have no idea if the CM was checking for "phantom guests" or just asked to see everyone for another reason. I only know he asked and that for us it was not that big of deal because we had arrived on the same flight and we were all in the building together.

Here is the post that made me remember that the CM wanted to see all the members of our party.

This is really good to know. My cousin who will be sharing the room with us, will not be arriving until much later that night....I am usually the only one who checks in, and hope that not everyone needs to be present, but can totally understand due to abuses why they might be cracking down on this now. I hope to get more clarification on this once the free dining starts again this year. Has anyone seen this happen personally? Where a CM asks where everyone in the party is when you check in??

When I read that post I remembered the CM wanted to see all of us at check in. It was only after that post that I began to think maybe they were checking for "phantom guests" but since I knew nothing about the "phantom guests" until I read about them on the resorts board this summer I never even considered it might be why the CM asked us to check in together.

I really wish I had not read those posts because I became concerned for those families and that is why this whole thing seems to bother me way too much.

It is true sometimes ignorance is bliss.

disney2d2

07-26-2006, 08:46 PM

(I am not talking about phantom guests)

Disney obviously understands that Adults using Child credits is a money losing deal for them, so they've put a rule about it in their brochure. But, what they have not done is enforce and train the servers to make sure that credits are used properly. Also, they've made it very confusing for people to use credits appropriately.

I believe this the brochure line is a temporary measure, and they will probably divide credits next year or sooner. Until then, and excuse my French, it's a half-assed measure. Although they can still enforce in the manner that someone has reported, where you cannot use more TS credits at one sitting than the number of adults in your package.

On the other hand, sharing credits between two or more adults both of whom are on the plan is a no brainer, both for the guests (who want to share) and Disney. Enforcing such a rule would be, simply put, a stupid move on the part of Disney.

Lewisc

07-26-2006, 08:50 PM

Muziqal

07-26-2006, 08:56 PM

Until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

Bicker, where do you come up with these ridiculous claims?

How recent? How many? Where did you get these figures?

You certainly make my day when I log in and read something you've written about how the world has turned upside down and there are no longer any ethical people inhabiting it.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 08:56 PM

No: If you engage in deception; if you exploit lack of enforcement; if you behave without integrity; THEN you're dishonorable.

You're trying to rationalize bad behavior by asserting that there is no such thing as a difference between good behavior and bad behavior: There is such a difference. You aren't entitled to dictate both sides of a commercial transaction: The supplier makes an offer; you as the customer can either accept those terms and conditions or reject them and walk away from the deal.

Of course it is.

... rely on the honesty and integrity of their guests. Until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

Chalk up another dime. Now we've kicked it up a notch to say that the vast majority of Disney guests are no longer trustworthy. Would judging someone and calling them and others dishonorable border on name calling. Carefull, you may be breaking a Dis Board rule.

For the terms and conditions to be met, the suplier has to provide the proper terms and conditions, that's their resposibility. Disney has changed the terms and conditions by not supplying child and adult credits, just credits, and accepting them that way for payment.

bstnsprts

07-26-2006, 09:16 PM

K-mart made a mistake when they first put in self service registers. Many of their customers were giving themselves BOGO specials and K-Mart had to take actions to prevent dishonest customers from taking more items then they were paying for.

I guess we now understand your position. Policy is irrelevant. Rules are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if you'll get caught.

Prior to the new brochure guests were justified in taking advantage of the plan. There really isnt any doubt what you're allowed to do. The only question is if you'll get caught and how long before it's not even possible.

Sorry, but not even close as an analogy. Disney, not I, provides the pooled credits. Disney, not I, accepts payment with the pooled credits. Disney can't fix this just by saying don't use child credits for adult meals. There are no child credits, there are no adult credits, if Disney doesn't want them being used as pooled, then they, not I, must separate them.

Let me try an analogy that I stated before. Disney decides to put in it's brochure that you will now only get a snack every other day. Crazy, but as it's been said, they have the right to change the plan. Now Disney doesn't want to spend the money or time and effort to change the computer program. So you show up for your eight night stay and are given 8TS, 8CS, and also 8 snacks. When you question this your told, ya that's the way it is, the program hasn't been changed yet. Well it's not your obligation or responsibility to just use 4 snacks because the brochure says so when you've just been given 8 by Disney. When you get that 5th snack on so on, and it deducts payment from your DDP, that's Disney's issue for not fixing their systems. The brochure change should have happened if and when the credits are separated.

Pedler

07-26-2006, 09:31 PM

Sorry, but not even close as an analogy. Disney, not I, provides the pooled credits. Disney, not I, accepts payment with the pooled credits. Disney can't fix this just by saying don't use child credits for adult meals. There are no child credits, there are no adult credits, if Disney doesn't want them being used as pooled, then they, not I, must separate them.

Let me try an analogy that I stated before. Disney decides to put in it's brochure that you will now only get a snack every other day. Crazy, but as it's been said, they have the right to change the plan. Now Disney doesn't want to spend the money or time and effort to change the computer program. So you show up for your eight night stay and are given 8TS, 8CS, and also 8 snacks. When you question this your told, ya that's the way it is, the program hasn't been changed yet. Well it's not your obligation or responsibility to just use 4 snacks because the brochure says so when you've just been given 8 by Disney. When you get that 5th snack on so on, and it deducts payment from your DDP, that's Disney's issue for not fixing their systems. The brochure change should have happened if and when the credits are separated.

By using your analogy then it is OK to ignore rules that do not have an enforcement mechanism, things that rely on the honor system. Just out of curiosity, not making a moral judgement one way or the other, but what is your view on refillable mugs? Disney clearly states that mugs purchased (with some distant long go exceptions) are good for the length of stay. At the same time there is no enforcement mechanism to insure that you don't bring back the mug. Since there isn't an enforcement mechanism for refillable mugs I would assume that you feel that rule doesn't need to be followed as well?

Pedler

07-26-2006, 09:33 PM

... rely on the honesty and integrity of their guests. Until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

Bicker,

What data are you basing your evaluation that the vast majority of guests are not trustworthy? Seeing as the majority of WDW guests probably have never even heard of the DIS.

Pedler

07-26-2006, 09:39 PM

Most of the time big business has the upper hand, when they make a mistake in favor of the consumer, the consumer should take advantage.

My take on it is that it doesn't make a difference if it is a big business small business or a friend. Why should I behave differently in a situation if it is a large company as opposed to a small busines or individual?

minnie61650

07-26-2006, 09:50 PM

The brochure change should have happened if and when the credits are separated.

I am hoping the brochure change happened because the credits are going to be separated soon.

I do hope credits will be separated by August 13.

Then I will not have to worry so much about the free dining guests trying to check in before the rest of their party arrives.

I will be able to relax and hope that means that GEM and her 3 year old son can check in and not have to wait until Grandma arrives 12 hours later.

I can hope that scoutsmom 99 will not have to wait 5 hours for her sister to arrive.

I can hope that Michelle will not have to wait until much later that night for her cousin to arrive.

I can hope these people and others whose party are not arriving at the same time will be able to get their room keys with their park tickets and DDP.

I am hoping Disney will check these people in even without the separation of credits but if Disney can separate the credits I think it is more likely they will not have a problem getting their keys.

Here's to hope :thumbsup2

thunderbird1

07-26-2006, 11:07 PM

I am hoping the brochure change happened because the credits are going to be separated soon.

I do hope credits will be separated by August 13.

Then I will not have to worry so much about the free dining guests trying to check in before the rest of their party arrives.

Here's to hope :thumbsup2

Linda, what a caring, thoughtful person you are. Worrying about all these people you don't even know. I hope everything works out for them, too.

Unless, of course, they all arrive the same day I do, and have Le Cellier dinner reservations that they have to cancel because they can't get their credits until all members of their party have arrived, and I am therefore able to get into Le Cellier for dinner instead of the lunch I currently have scheduled. Then I couldn't care less what happens to them because, hey, at least I got mine! :stir: Does that make me dishonorable? Or just plain mean? :joker:

aubriee

07-27-2006, 01:13 AM

You may be right about last year, but the landscape has obviously changed...as you can see from the language in the brochure.
Sure enough, when we arrived in May, the CM told me we'd need everybody there when we got to the DDP part and I had to go round them up. Both the DDP rep and the OKW CM said, without me asking, that the procedure was a new one "designed to cut down on the cheating"...their words, not mine.

Same thing happened to us this past May. I got off the DME bus and went straight in to check in while my mom went to luggage services to pick up her scooter. The CM checking us in said he had to 'eyeball' my mom "since you're on the DDP". It wasn't a problem as my mom came in about that time and was looking for me. She simply waved and he said OK, she didn't need to come all the way over since she was in a scooter. When I mentioned to him that I checked my party in by myself last Sept, because we didn't want to take up all that room in line, he said 'unfortunately times have changed due to a few people playing the system'.

minnie61650

07-27-2006, 01:17 AM

Linda, what a caring, thoughtful person you are. Worrying about all these people you don't even know. I hope everything works out for them, too.

Unless, of course, they all arrive the same day I do, and have Le Cellier dinner reservations that they have to cancel because they can't get their credits until all members of their party have arrived, and I am therefore able to get into Le Cellier for dinner instead of the lunch I currently have scheduled. Then I couldn't care less what happens to them because, hey, at least I got mine! :stir: Does that make me dishonorable? Or just plain mean? :joker:

Thank you for your kind words.

Dishonorable? ---No---mean?---No-- :joker: --Yes!
:rotfl: :rotfl2: :rotfl:

Have a great time at Disney and I hope you get into Le Cellier for dinner instead of lunch! :thumbsup2

bicker

07-27-2006, 05:48 AM

What data are you basing your evaluation that the vast majority of guests are not trustworthy? Gosh, here's a great example of intellectual misdirection. What I said was that until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

Folks: Please read what you're replying to before you reply to it.

Pedler

07-27-2006, 06:05 AM

minnie61650

07-27-2006, 06:13 AM

Lewisc

07-27-2006, 08:35 AM

Actually the analogy is near perfect. K-Mart relied on the honesty of their customers to ring up every item. Disney is relying on the honesty of their guests not to use child credits for adult meals. K-Mart initially didn't have a system to check up on their customers honesty. Disney doesn't currently have a system to check up on their customers. K-Mart had to add a system to check and most of us think Disney will wind up having to take actions to separate credits.

Disney has always said children must order from the kids menu. Disney has always charged less for "child credits". Disney is now saying child entitlements can't be used to purchase adult meals. Pooled credits and Disney's accounting system is a red herring. The rules and policy is crystal clear.

All of your points refer to enforcement not to what's allowed.

Sorry, but not even close as an analogy. Disney, not I, provides the pooled credits. Disney, not I, accepts payment with the pooled credits. Disney can't fix this just by saying don't use child credits for adult meals. There are no child credits, there are no adult credits, if Disney doesn't want them being used as pooled, then they, not I, must separate them.

Let me try an analogy that I stated before. Disney decides to put in it's brochure that you will now only get a snack every other day. Crazy, but as it's been said, they have the right to change the plan. Now Disney doesn't want to spend the money or time and effort to change the computer program. So you show up for your eight night stay and are given 8TS, 8CS, and also 8 snacks. When you question this your told, ya that's the way it is, the program hasn't been changed yet. Well it's not your obligation or responsibility to just use 4 snacks because the brochure says so when you've just been given 8 by Disney. When you get that 5th snack on so on, and it deducts payment from your DDP, that's Disney's issue for not fixing their systems. The brochure change should have happened if and when the credits are separated.

Muziqal

07-27-2006, 10:00 AM

Gosh, here's a great example of intellectual misdirection. What I said was that until recent times, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

Folks: Please read what you're replying to before you reply to it.

= he doesn't have any clue how he came up with that so he's not going to answer. Rather, he'll pick apart your post.

Answer the question, Bicker. You love to claim the world is more dishonest and untrustworthy than it has ever been, yet you have never proven your claims. It would be nice, for once, if you didn't evade.

minnie61650

07-27-2006, 10:11 AM

This was posted on the resorts board in the last 2 days.

http://disboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13693215

Resorts still making all guests in one room check in together?

I am going during the free dining, and my niece will be joining us, but will not arrive with us. I asked the CM who called POFQ to double check, and was told not to worry about it. We are paying a room fee as well as for 6 days of passes for her. There would be no benefit to us to "make her up".

1) Yes there would!
2) You could use her tickets another visit.
3) Her dining "coupons" would then be available this trip for you and family.
4) Trust me, this is happening A LOT.
5) This is the reason for the rule of all being present.
6) If not all there, they could check you in, but not allow dining plan.
7) Since the dining is free, you are not "out" any money.

NOTE: When they had free dining previously, they found a lot of people with virtual families, so they could get more free food. They would buy the park ticket and use it on a future trip. In some cases, the park tickets were for half their stay and they would use the virtual person's ticket for the other half of the trip.

disney2d2

07-27-2006, 10:13 AM

= he doesn't have any clue how he came up with that so he's not going to answer. Rather, he'll pick apart your post.

Answer the question, Bicker. You love to claim the world is more dishonest and untrustworthy than it has ever been, yet you have never proven your claims. It would be nice, for once, if you didn't evade.

popcorn:: Waiting for his answer

May be the internet is to blame, people who find ways to save money (or deals, as I like to call them) have found a medium to congregate and exchange 'em. That's really one way to stick it to the man.

But I have no problem with 'the man' smartening up a little to like say, divide adult and child credits or, have all guests present at check-in to make sure there are no phantom guests.

punkin

07-27-2006, 10:28 AM

popcorn:: Waiting for his answer

You'll have a nice long wait. Of course, the insults to your integrity should come fairly soon.

Lewisc

07-27-2006, 10:47 AM

Muziqal

07-27-2006, 11:00 AM

I'm sure Bicker will produce whatever statistics that he's basing his posts on BUT
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence. My local supermarkets stopped taking internet coupons. Too much fraud. There have been articles with quotes from vice presidents of companies like Best Buy. They say the internet, specifically sites like fatwallet, are contributing to fraud and misuse. People are falsifying records so they can qualify for a rebate. Returning merchandise for a full refund and then going back and re-buying (or send a friend to do the re-buying) the same item discounted as an open box item. Playing games in order to get a price match that isn't valid. COSTCO has a very liberal return policy but I question why they accept returns of folding chairs the day or two after Thanksgiving.

I certainly don't think the majority of guests are dishonest, I don't know if that's Bicker's point. The evidence is the internet is contributing to more questionable behavior.

Fraud is fraud. Ethics are ethics.The question of the internet contributing to it is not the point. The more money that gets printed, I bet the same percentage of the people will want to steal it or taking advantage through loop holes or lack of enforcement.

If you were in medievil times, you either were a person who stole a loaf of bread or didn't. Today, you are either a person who chooses to steal or not.
I think blaming the internet for a huge influx of fraud is a crock. Technology will allow new ways to enforce and new ways to cheat. That's what you mean when you say fatwallet contributes to fraud. So what if I can read what someone writes about how to cheat the system. The same words are available to the department store loss prevention people.

Bicker will have a hard time convincing anyone of the fact that once there was a person who didn't cheat and had ethics in place not to cheat, and then
connected to the world wide web and for that reason alone became a cheater.

We have 6 billion people on this planet...unless you have figures spanning the ages, you can't say the world was once honest and now isn't...

disney2d2

07-27-2006, 11:32 AM

Since when is returning merchandise on the same ethical level as using child credits for adult credits...?

It is not uncommon for people to return stuff after nominal use if they longer need it. It's like this one time where my phone died, I had to drive for 3 hours, and my car charger was in another car. So I stopped at a BestBuy, bought a car charger and then returned it the next day. Since I had one already and only needed it for emergency use. Of course I took care that I didn't damage the packaging while opening it up. On a side note, I bought my car charger at a dollar store, and the one from BestBuy cost $29.99!

Also, the return re-buy you have mentioned, doesn't work that way. What happens is that some merchandise is available in stores prior to Black Friday at a much higher cost. So some people, knowing that on black friday the same time would be say $150 cheaper and would be sold out in minutes, buy it before hand and then go in on Black Friday later on in the day, return it to customer service desk and them immediately repurchase it from the same counter (it was allowed until recently). Of course BestBuy wouldn't like this deal, since they would end up selling one more item at the discounted price than they planned on. I personally never do the return-rebuy thing, but I do wake up as early at 3 am on Black Friday just so that me and my friends could stand in line at the BestBuy and be there when they open at 6. It's a lot of fun if you have ever done it.

Finally sites like FatWallet and Slickdeals.net are great consumer resources. I mean how else would I find that Delta is giving away a free $25 Starbucks giftcard if I sign-up from their free frequent flyer program...

bicker

07-27-2006, 11:50 AM

popcorn:: Waiting for his answerAre you really? I have certain members ignored, so I don't see their inquiries.

So, since I won't reply to members I have ignored: Do you really disagree with my assertion the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy? Or are you just looking to make trouble in a thread, to get your jollies? If you're sincere, we can actually start a whole new thread to discuss just trustworthiness has changed over time... oh wait! I already did that three days ago! I even am working to get a bunch of folks to read the book that outlines all the evidence regarding the phenomenon we're alluding to. :rolleyes:

May be the internet is to blame, people who find ways to save money (or deals, as I like to call them) have found a medium to congregate and exchange 'em. That's really one way to stick it to the man.Yes, that's definitely a big part of it. Again, buy the book, join the book club thread, and let's start discussing it further!

Muziqal

07-27-2006, 11:53 AM

Are you really? I have certain members ignored, so I don't see their inquiries.

So, since I won't reply to members I have ignored: Do you really disagree with my assertion the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy? Or are you just looking to make trouble in a thread, to get your jollies? If you're sincere, we can actually start a whole new thread to discuss just trustworthiness has changed over time... oh wait! I already did that three days ago! I even am working to get a bunch of folks to read the book that outlines all the evidence regarding the phenomenon we're alluding to. :rolleyes:

Yes, that's definitely a big part of it. Again, buy the book, join the book club thread, and let's start discussing it further!

Bicker, may not be able to read this post - but he can certainly read my posts when other people quote them :thumbsup2 Let's not be so childish.

bicker

07-27-2006, 11:54 AM

Finally sites like FatWallet and Slickdeals.net are great consumer resources. I agree. There's a big difference between sharing public information about available discounts and special deals, and sharing information about getting more by exploiting lack of enforcement. Again, black-and-white: One is honest and up-standing; the other is deceptive and dishonorable.

Pedler

07-27-2006, 11:58 AM

It is not uncommon for people to return stuff after nominal use if they longer need it. It's like this one time where my phone died, I had to drive for 3 hours, and my car charger was in another car. So I stopped at a BestBuy, bought a car charger and then returned it the next day. Since I had one already and only needed it for emergency use. Of course I took care that I didn't damage the packaging while opening it up. On a side note, I bought my car charger at a dollar store, and the one from BestBuy cost $29.99!

Depending upon the store some places will not automatically put it back on the shelf as new but will put it back on the shelf as opened merchandise at a slight discount. It is almost impossible to open somethings and seal them back up as if there were unsealed. What you were in essence doing is borrowing a charger from Best Buy for a day at no charge.

Also, the return re-buy you have mentioned, doesn't work that way. What happens is that some merchandise is available in stores prior to Black Friday at a much higher cost. So some people, knowing that on black friday the same time would be say $150 cheaper and would be sold out in minutes, buy it before hand and then go in on Black Friday later on in the day, return it to customer service desk and them immediately repurchase it from the same counter (it was allowed until recently). Of course BestBuy wouldn't like this deal, since they would end up selling one more item at the discounted price than they planned on. I personally never do the return-rebuy thing, but I do wake up as early at 3 am on Black Friday just so that me and my friends could stand in line at the BestBuy and be there when they open at 6. It's a lot of fun if you have ever done it.

Actually the scenrio that Lewisc mentioned is one that Best Buy specifically mentioned in an article in the Wall Street Journal a year or two ago. People would purchase an item, open it and then return it knowing it would be marked down. They would then go back and rebuy the marked down item. They have since changed the policy on opened electronics and added a restocking fee to discourage this type of activity.

disney2d2

07-27-2006, 12:31 PM

So you want me to play a mediator of sorts? Well, for starters it would be nice if you could remove members from your ignore list, since it's really good to know all sides of an issue, especially those that you disagree with or are annoyed by.

I personally do not believe in random social commentary, especially one that's passed off in writing (like your book), and contains assertions based on not the proven scientific method, but personal experiences. It's stuff that the author cannot back up.

Wealth for instance has little or no effect on social behavior. Some people who steal, do so even after their acts have made them rich. Some people who look for deals and try to save every penny, do so despite their changing financial positions. But does that say anything about society and communal trends as a whole. No.

Acts that one perceives to be of "bad" nature, might not be considered so in a different situation, geographic location or time. Every person has their own morality meter, and no matter how hard you or I try, we can't have a lasting impact on it.

Finally, and as you can see from what I have written already, I disagree with your assertion. There were always people who stole towels from hotel rooms and there always will be. There was never a "pure" society and there never will be. The numbers will vary, but as a statistician will tell you, "it's all pretty random". People have been crying wolf on this from very very old times, that social morality is going down and 'we are about to hit a wall'. I don't see it. No one has.

Are you really? I have certain members ignored, so I don't see their inquiries.

So, since I won't reply to members I have ignored: Do you really disagree with my assertion the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy? Or are you just looking to make trouble in a thread, to get your jollies? If you're sincere, we can actually start a whole new thread to discuss just trustworthiness has changed over time... oh wait! I already did that three days ago! I even am working to get a bunch of folks to read the book that outlines all the evidence regarding the phenomenon we're alluding to. :rolleyes:

Yes, that's definitely a big part of it. Again, buy the book, join the book club thread, and let's start discussing it further!

Lewisc

07-27-2006, 12:34 PM

I never said it was the same. It was a general comment regarding ethical behavior of consumers. Personally I'd put a parent that uses one "child credit", that came from a child skipping a meal, in a different category from a family that pays out of pocket for 100% of their kids meals and then uses the "banked" credits to treat guests not even staying at WDW resorts. It doesn't really matter what we think. The number of guests who abused/overused that plan loophole/feature became high enough to motivate Disney to close the loophole.

Actually some customers were buying an electronic devices such as a DVD players. They returned it opened and waited until Best Buy sold it as a discounted open box item. This was one of the practices that the BB executive was objecting to. A few consumers decided this was a way to get a 10% discount on an item that generally isn't discounted. BB tried charging a re-stocking fee but competitive pressures caused them to limit or even drop it for most items in most areas.

Some stores now say that returned merchandise will not always be made available for sale. That prevents a customer from buying something before a sale and then returning and re-buying during the sale.

Many of the fat wallet deals are good but some of the price match/coupon strategies require finding a manager that doesn't follow the rules.

Since when is returning merchandise on the same ethical level as using child credits for adult credits...?

It is not uncommon for people to return stuff after nominal use if they longer need it. It's like this one time where my phone died, I had to drive for 3 hours, and my car charger was in another car. So I stopped at a BestBuy, bought a car charger and then returned it the next day. Since I had one already and only needed it for emergency use. Of course I took care that I didn't damage the packaging while opening it up. On a side note, I bought my car charger at a dollar store, and the one from BestBuy cost $29.99!

Also, the return re-buy you have mentioned, doesn't work that way. What happens is that some merchandise is available in stores prior to Black Friday at a much higher cost. So some people, knowing that on black friday the same time would be say $150 cheaper and would be sold out in minutes, buy it before hand and then go in on Black Friday later on in the day, return it to customer service desk and them immediately repurchase it from the same counter (it was allowed until recently). Of course BestBuy wouldn't like this deal, since they would end up selling one more item at the discounted price than they planned on. I personally never do the return-rebuy thing, but I do wake up as early at 3 am on Black Friday just so that me and my friends could stand in line at the BestBuy and be there when they open at 6. It's a lot of fun if you have ever done it.

Finally sites like FatWallet and Slickdeals.net are great consumer resources. I mean how else would I find that Delta is giving away a free $25 Starbucks giftcard if I sign-up from their free frequent flyer program...

disney2d2

07-27-2006, 12:45 PM

I am sure you have your sources, but at least for the past 4-5 years, I've always seen BestBuy having a 15% (or is it 20?) restocking fee on items such as cameras, camcorders, computers. Not sure about DVD Players.

Also, the open box re-buy thing is pretty lame. You have to return an item, and then wait for the store to put it back on the shelf, all to save 10-20% and it's not guaranteed that you will get it unless say you have a friend working thereor something. That's too much.

As far as Costco is concerned, their liberal return policy is their own choice. I've heard of people who went to college, bought a computer and then returned it after a whole semester of use. Indeed it looks like exploiting the situation, but just like Disney, if the Corporation doesn't have a problem with it, consumers who don't do such acts shouldn't have a problem with it either. I don't see it affecting prices from them. At least not at Costco.

bicker

07-27-2006, 12:52 PM

So you want me to play a mediator of sorts?Gosh no. I'd view the book as the mediator. I expect that we'll all have some issues with what the book says, but it wouldn't make much sense to read the book with a perspective that it cannot provide any insights of value, eh?

Well, for starters it would be nice if you could remove members from your ignore list, since it's really good to know all sides of an issue, especially those that you disagree with or are annoyed by.I respect your views on that, however, some people have proven through past actions that they're unable to have a mature discussion without resorting to personal attacks and other foolishness. I've no patience for that sort of thing, and coincidently, neither do the moderators. They've said over and over again that personal discussions should be taken to PMs. I suppose it shouldn't surprise us that certain members elect to violate such rules as long as there isn't any effective enforcement that actively prevents them from doing so.

I personally do not believe in random social commentary, especially one that's passed off in writing (like your book),My book? What are you talking about? and contains assertions based on not the proven scientific method, but personal experiences. It's stuff that the author cannot back up.So you've read the book?

Finally, and as you can see from what I have written already, I disagree with your assertion. There were always people who stole towels from hotel rooms and there always will be.How does that run contrary to my assertion? I think, again, people are reading what they want to read (perhaps reading what would be easier to argue against), and ignoring what people are actually writing.

I'll write it again. Maybe the third time is the charm: In the past, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

There was never a "pure" society and there never will be. The numbers will vary, but as a statistician will tell you, "it's all pretty random".This question is, first, in the past, were a substantial portion of the population dishonorable? If the answer to that is "no" then you agree with what I wrote. Second, and this is where some of the questions were going, and a very intersting query: Has the dishonorable portion varied over time in a manner inconsistent with normal variation. I suspect the book will have a lot of very interesting things to say in that regard.

Lewisc

07-27-2006, 01:05 PM

I'll agree in the past the vast majority of guests were trustworthy BUT I must be missing your point, maybe I need new glasses. Are you saying now the vast majority of guests aren't trustworthy? Are you saying the majority of guests are still trustworthy, just no longer the vast majority? For the sake of completion I'll ask if you now think more than the vast majority of guests are trustworthy, almost unanimous, but in the context of your posts I'm sure that's not what you mean.

Actually I'll list an additional possibility. The percentage of trustworthy/untrustworthy guests is about the same. The difference is the information on the internet allows the less trustworthy customer to have more of an impact. Those less trustworthy customers are able scam more.

Of course some of the business are also less trustworthy. Listen to any salesman describe how an extended warranty works and then compare it to the written terms of policy.

I'll write it again. Maybe the third time is the charm: In the past, the vast majority of guests were indeed trustworthy.

bicker

07-27-2006, 01:25 PM

I'll agree in the past the vast majority of guests were trustworthy BUT I must be missing your point, maybe I need new glasses. Are you saying now the vast majority of guests aren't trustworthy?No, I'm not saying that. No form of logic would indicate that one follows from the other.

Are you saying the majority of guests are still trustworthy, just no longer the vast majority?That's what we're discussing. Just from the messages here on the DIS, we can see a lot more dishonesty being discussed now than just five years ago -- a very pronounced trend. That does indicate that that majority is not as vast as it once was. Other indicators can be found with regard to other aspects of WDW. Clearly, the biometric scanners were introduced when the vast majority of guests who honored the rule against transferability of admission passes decreased sufficiently to warrant the added cost and guest inconvenience inherent in the use of the scanners. I'm sure you know the other examples of this that indicate how deception and lack of integrity has increased over time. And, of course, the examples spread beyond WDW: Road rage, for example.

Actually I'll list an additional possibility. The percentage of trustworthy/untrustworthy guests is about the same. The difference is the information on the internet allows the less trustworthy customer to have more of an impact. Those less trustworthy customers are able scam more.That's interesting, but I don't think that fits with the biometric scanners example, and many other examples as well. Occum's Razor dictates that in the absence of information to the contrary, the simplest explanation is the best, and it is far simpler for the mechanism to be that dishonor is spreading. I do believe the Internet is an agent of this spreading, but it isn't making the miscreants more effective, but rather enabling more miscreants.

Of course some of the business are also less trustworthy.Definitely, and I bet that many of those "additional" miscreants use that as an excuse for their transgressive behaviors.

Lewisc

07-27-2006, 01:52 PM

Actually biometric scanners were first used as an alternative to putting pictures on annual passes. I'm not sure if it was due to an increase of guests "loaning" their AP but rather more efficient than having CMs continue to try to match pictures to faces.

MYW ticket pricing, extra days for almost free, probably motivated Disney to extend use of the scanners. Disney really didn't care if guests gave away tickets when the tickets were priced on a per day basis with a small discount for longer lengths. I know the tickets weren't transferable but was that really the policy when the tickets didn't even a spot to write your name on the ticket?

I wonder if the % of dishonest people isn't that much higher but rather those people are able, in part due to information shared on the internet, are able to take more stuff. Those people who want to take advantage of a loophole or even a business that isn't able to enforce policy now have more knowlege of opportunities to do that.

Look at the people who are now asking if Disney has a way to enforce the child/adult credit issue. Without the internet some of the guests wouldn't know about this loophole or that they can probably still get away with it. The % of ethically challenged customers may be the same but the number of ethically challenged guests that are knowledgeable about a particular loophole is increased.

I wonder if the total number of miscreants is increasing or if the miscreants are now able to "scam" more business.

That's interesting, but I don't think that fits with the biometric scanners example, and many other examples as well. Occum's Razor dictates that in the absence of information to the contrary, the simplest explanation is the best, and it is far simpler for the mechanism to be that dishonor is spreading. I do believe the Internet is an agent of this spreading, but it isn't making the miscreants more effective, but rather enabling more miscreants.

Definitely, and I bet that many of those "additional" miscreants use that as an excuse for their transgressive behaviors.