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2TxAgs
06-18-2006, 01:14 PM
I read in a magazine recently about the difference between the rich and
the poor:

The Rich plan and save for the next 3 generations
The Poor plan and save for Saturday night



So, for those of you who don't need to pinch pennies but still choose to,
maybe they will thank you 3 generations from now! :sunny:

patsal
06-18-2006, 02:35 PM
Oh, I thought the only difference was the term "crazy" vs "eccentric" :lmao:

ncbyrne
06-18-2006, 02:51 PM
The rich go to WDW whenever they want. The poor go to their rich friend's house and watch the Disney Channel. :teeth:

HenDuck
06-18-2006, 03:08 PM
The rich go to WDW whenever they want. The poor go to their rich friend's house and watch the Disney Channel. :teeth:


:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Now that made me laugh out loud!

LisaNJ25
06-18-2006, 03:18 PM
The rich go to WDW whenever they want. The poor go to their rich friend's house and watch the Disney Channel. :teeth:
:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :happytv: :happytv:

meloneyb21
06-18-2006, 09:31 PM
Wow, what a snobby thread :teeth:

SamSam
06-18-2006, 11:19 PM
Don't see this as snobby at all! I took what the OP to be saying is that people that plan 'way ahead', may budget better and in the long run be more fiscally sound.

Free4Life11
06-18-2006, 11:35 PM
Yeah, if I weren't making $7 bucks an hour I too could plan 3 generations ahead.

disneyjunkie
06-19-2006, 05:28 AM
Yeah, if I weren't making $7 bucks an hour I too could plan 3 generations ahead.

ITA

I wonder how smug most of us would feel if we had to raise a family on such a low salary.:sad2:

crisi
06-19-2006, 05:54 AM
Yeah, if I weren't making $7 bucks an hour I too could plan 3 generations ahead.

You can plan three generations ahead on $7 an hour.

Generation 1: Self

Live within your means
Try to make a better tomorrow for yourself

Generation 2: Kids

Raise your kids to go to college or tradeschool (plumbers are well paid - nothing to scoff at).
Instill in them, if possible, an enterprenurial spirit
Encourage them to delay marriage and children until their late twenties
Teach them about money and debt

Generation 3: Grandkids

Repeat (with as much influence as you can as a grandparent) what you did with your kids.
If you have been living WITHIN your means, you won't die without assets - they may be small, but they will be assets. Earmark them for school for your grandkids.

Now you are "thinking rich." You will probably never be rich, but chances are pretty good some of your children or grandchildren will do well.

On the other hand, if you say you can't plan making $7 an hour and things won't be any better for your kids than you, you are setting them up.

Mouse House Mama
06-19-2006, 06:13 AM
Rich = healthy happy family (especially my kids!) and enjoying our life :love:
Poor = taking it all for granted and not realizing until it's too late!

Sorry- just had to put my spin on it. :teeth:


Rich or poor, live life to the fullest! princess:

Chicago526
06-19-2006, 07:53 AM
I've always thought that "poor" was a state of mind, not a financial situation. You can be totally broke and not be poor. You can also be wealthy and be very poor indeed.

ZipaDeeDooDah
06-19-2006, 08:06 AM
I've always thought that "poor" was a state of mind, not a financial situation. You can be totally broke and not be poor. You can also be wealthy and be very poor indeed.
Beautifully said! :thumbsup2

eliza61
06-19-2006, 08:10 AM
Rich = healthy happy family (especially my kids!) and enjoying our life :love:
Poor = taking it all for granted and not realizing until it's too late!

Sorry- just had to put my spin on it. :teeth:


Rich or poor, live life to the fullest! princess:

Well said, :thumbsup2
As a 9/11 survivor, the last thing I now do is equate rich with the amount of money I have.

Littlemotherhaywood
06-19-2006, 08:24 AM
I've always thought that "poor" was a state of mind, not a financial situation. You can be totally broke and not be poor. You can also be wealthy and be very poor indeed.

ITA with this. I absolutely think how we see ourselves is more important than what our bank statement reflects and I think some of the comments in this thread were rather tasteless. No matter how much one plans, things come up. A good example would be the million dollar plus medical bills my uncle racked up trying to save his life. Would you consider him poor because he'll never be out of debt and able to save for his daughter and future grandchildren? Really? What about all of the college grads in my area that can't get a decent job because the job market is in a slump. Ten workers for every job means lower wages because people are desperate. If we're talking money, then my family would probably be considered poor by the standards of some on this board and rich by the standards of others. It's all perspective but I certainly wouldn't sit around laughing at the misfortune of those who can't or choose not to save for future generations. Also, I don't believe the actions of the parents determine the actions of the children. Both of my parents are poor by my standards. My father has filed bankruptcy twice and neither of my parents own their own homes. They're both essentially still living off of their parents (who both own their own homes, saved for retirement, etc.). I moved out at seventeen, attended some college (still have to finish my degree but life happens), own my own home, raise my children with values and have taught them how to save.

crisi
06-19-2006, 08:28 AM
There is rich in spirit and rich financially. And poor in spirit and poor financially. But wouldn't you rather be rich in spirit AND rich (or at least comfortable) financially than rich in spirit but struggling financially. You CAN have both, you know.

Chicago526
06-19-2006, 09:04 AM
There is rich in spirit and rich financially. And poor in spirit and poor financially. But wouldn't you rather be rich in spirit AND rich (or at least comfortable) financially than rich in spirit but struggling financially. You CAN have both, you know.


Quite true! :) And nothing wrong with having both, either. :thumbsup2

What I also meant in my earlier post about "poor" being a state of mind was that often for people who are financialy poor, it's their state of mind that keeps them that way more than any other reason. They see no way out of their situation, and give up. And worse, often teach their kids (often unintentionally) to feel the same, and the cycle of poverty continues on another generation.

2TxAgs
06-19-2006, 09:23 AM
When I read the article, and that quote specifically, what I got out of it was that 'attitude' is the key. If you're not thinking beyond this weekend, then you're never going to get anywhere long term.

There's nothing snotty about that. It's what every one of these financial threads has been about for months - 'we've planned ahead, we've made sacrifices now so we have something for later, etc.' I thought it was a very concise summary of what so many have been saying ever since this turned into a budgeting/financial advice website.

runwad
06-19-2006, 11:27 AM
You can plan three generations ahead on $7 an hour.

Generation 2: Kids

Raise your kids to go to college or tradeschool (plumbers are well paid - nothing to scoff at).
Instill in them, if possible, an enterprenurial spirit
Encourage them to delay marriage and children until their late twenties
Teach them about money and debt

.

Totally on with this!!

tinker&belle
06-19-2006, 05:22 PM
I agree with the state of mind thing...my mother raised us as a single mom. We never had a lot, but she insisted I get an education. Now, I have moved on and my husband and I are doing okay, but mom feels like her financial situation can never get better. She doesn't save for yearly bills such as taxes, license plates, etc. so she is constantly scraping. I've tried to show her how to budget but she feels she is too "poor" for it to help... it makes me really sad, yet she won't accept help either financially or with planning...

robsmom
06-20-2006, 07:55 AM
You can plan three generations ahead on $7 an hour.

Generation 1: Self

Live within your means
Try to make a better tomorrow for yourself

Generation 2: Kids

Raise your kids to go to college or tradeschool (plumbers are well paid - nothing to scoff at).
Instill in them, if possible, an enterprenurial spirit
Encourage them to delay marriage and children until their late twenties
Teach them about money and debt

Generation 3: Grandkids

Repeat (with as much influence as you can as a grandparent) what you did with your kids.
If you have been living WITHIN your means, you won't die without assets - they may be small, but they will be assets. Earmark them for school for your grandkids.

Now you are "thinking rich." You will probably never be rich, but chances are pretty good some of your children or grandchildren will do well.

On the other hand, if you say you can't plan making $7 an hour and things won't be any better for your kids than you, you are setting them up.

I love this. Not sure that i am "rich" financial (am very rich emotionally/family wise) but i am doing ok. I can see my family in this. I have 2 sets of grandparents with no college education, one off the boat immigrant, one 1st generation american. They lived very modest lives and were able to support their own retirements. They sent my parents and aunts/uncles to college but didnt' have alot to help them get started. My parents stuggled at first but gradually built their financial life and have a nice house and retirement savings. They were able to send us all to school and have enough to lend us a little towards our first houses etc. They are helping to contribute to college savings for the 4th generation.

punkin
06-20-2006, 02:36 PM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:

momof3littlelilos
06-20-2006, 02:42 PM
the difference between rich and poor?
a trust fund ;)
or a winning lotto ticket
or dumb luck

Seriously, people I know who've worked hard have gone from poor to comfortable middle class. But none of the "rich" people I know have earned it, they've all been born into it.

disneyjunkie
06-20-2006, 03:18 PM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:

Let's not forget implying that they and their children aren't happy and/healthy. :sad2:

arminnie
06-20-2006, 03:22 PM
the difference between rich and poor?
a trust fund ;)
or a winning lotto ticket
or dumb luck

Seriously, people I know who've worked hard have gone from poor to comfortable middle class. But none of the "rich" people I know have earned it, they've all been born into it.

How about being very, very smart and working hard. I know a lot of people who have come from total poverty who are very, very rich right now. These are not entertainers but most of them do have really, really good educations from super duper schools.

momof3littlelilos
06-20-2006, 03:54 PM
Yes. I've known people who have gotten academic scholarships to ivy league schools. (and taken out loans that could have bought a car and a down payment on a home) People who have joined the military to pay for education. I've known brilliant people who couldn't go Ivy league because of their schools ratings- schools they were stuck in because they were poor - so they go to public universitys and despite their intellectual capacity they work hard to be middle class - not rich. (and more power to them, moving up is fabulous!)
Yes, I've known many academically gifted people who have worked hard but still not made it to "rich".
I also know many intellectually mediocre individuals who never worked for or earned a thing - but have never had to because daddy, or granddaddy, or whatever unnamed ancestor left them a hefty sum. (It's also been my humble and limited life experience that theseare the people who make judgements about how the poor would be just like them if only they made better life choices. Which, I shouldn't have to point out is infuriating when it's not hilariously comical.)
I'm not sure why people find it so necessary to defend the myth that any kid in the ghetto can be Oprah or Bill Gates. They just can't.
Anybody can choose to better their situation. But there are limits. Maybe there are just lots of people who don't really understand what "rich" is and they're confusing comfortable with wealthy? Because I really do know quite a few people from lots of socio-economc classes, and I can't say that I've known anyone to make the leap from poverty to, say, the status of the Bush's or the Gates'.
Poverty is a serious impediment to financial success, and it's ridiculous to gloss over it as if it can be overcome like acne. If only there was a proactive solution for poverty.
Anyway, I'm gonna back away now - I really tried to stay away but this thread just rubbed me wrong. I only came here to have fun and share Disney-info, not to debate American economic policy, or to point out that there really is Grand Canyon of a gap between the rich and poor.

punkin
06-20-2006, 04:39 PM
there really is Grand Canyon of a gap between the rich and poor.

::yes::

Cass
06-20-2006, 04:49 PM
I don't know if anyone identifies with this but when Iwas starting out in the working world I was basically living paycheck to paycheck. I made a lot of foolish choices with my money (ie) eating out for lunch instead of bringing it to work, feeling sorry for myself and buying things to make me feel better (ie) things I could not afford: jewelry, designer stuff instead of generic brand stuff - it was like I had a chip on my shoulder. Got into dbt with my first credit cards, kept getting more credit, deeper and deeper.

Now, 20 years later - I spend way less on myself, I brown bag it, I buy generic brands, I don't have a need to have the 'best' of things and I save more and pay more attention to what I buy and how far a dollar goes.

I wonder if well off/high income people are cheap (and I don't mean this in a bad way) because like myself, and others I knew with very little income we were very careless and generous in our spending habits.

kudos to families making it on low incomes - especially with the commercials and messages out there that you have to have X brand to be successful. I say no to my DD - you are not having the 100.00 running shoes, you can have 2 pairs of the 19.99 running shoes - pick 2 colours you like ;)

MrsPete
06-20-2006, 06:07 PM
Yeah, if I weren't making $7 bucks an hour I too could plan 3 generations ahead.Hmmm. When I was young and poor I was planning ahead. I wasn't able to save money at that point -- I was pretty much living hand to mouth -- but I was working very hard at putting myself through school and avoiding debt. I knew that these things would help me all my life, they'd enable my children to have a good life /college education, and that in turn would enable my grandchildren to do the same.

MrsPete
06-20-2006, 06:09 PM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:I don't know that I'm rich. I am very comfortable, but I do have to keep going to work every day.

However, I have lived successfully on less than $7 per hour, so I'd say I'm qualified to give advice on how to do it. No one gave me a pile of money; in fact, no one even gave me my college education. Don't assume that people who are financially comfortable have always been "rich".

MrsPete
06-20-2006, 06:16 PM
Seriously, people I know who've worked hard have gone from poor to comfortable middle class. But none of the "rich" people I know have earned it, they've all been born into it.I know people who were born poor and moved up to middle class.
I know people who were born poor and moved up to wealthy.
I know people who were born rich and wasted their way down to middle class.

For those who've moved up, I think there are two keys:
1. Education in a productive field
2. Starting out frugally; avoiding what so many people consider necessary: the so-called "starter-debt"

runwad
06-20-2006, 08:07 PM
I think people need to work harder. I look all over in America and everyone wants something for nothing, noone wants to work for anything they want it handed to them. Where I work if you're a hard worker you are worth your weight in gold it's not easy to replace workers when noone wants to work. And this goes for all income levels for the person making 7 bucks an hour to the one making 50..what has happened to our work ethic??? I'm not saying this applies to everyone there are some hard workers (me for one :wave: )I'm just saying where you work how many do you know, and how many slaggers? Think about it. The immigrants come here and work for a better life, do we??

lenzs4
06-20-2006, 11:12 PM
I had to take a class that discussed the differences within the classes. It was interesting - although I can not remember most of the interesting tidbits. I do remember this one:
FOOD:
the poor ask - Did you get enough? QUANTITY
Middle Class - how was that - did it taste good/alright? TASTE
Upper class - Was it aesthetically (sp?) pleasing? LOOK

The concerns over food were totally different. Many funny little things were discussed in this class. The book, full of fun facts, was by Ruby Payne . I read it and actullay learned a lot. It was very neat to read about (seeing as how I will never experience the upper end on a teacher salary LOL).
Shirley

arminnie
06-21-2006, 12:23 AM
Anybody can choose to better their situation. But there are limits. Maybe there are just lots of people who don't really understand what "rich" is and they're confusing comfortable with wealthy? Because I really do know quite a few people from lots of socio-economc classes, and I can't say that I've known anyone to make the leap from poverty to, say, the status of the Bush's or the Gates'.Bush and Gates are NOT any where near to being in the same league. Bush's wealth (which is more than I will ever have is in the millions), Gates' wealth is in the BILLIONS.

What your cut-off between comfortable and wealthy? Five million or 500 million? Big difference. I know lots of people in CA worth 5 million because of their homes.

Of course not everyone can be Oprah or Bill Gates. And frankly - who needs that kind of money? What's wrong with just being comfortable?

Not everyone can be a multi-millionaire - I don't think anyone is saying that. But there are SO MANY people who are in poverty for generations that shouldn't be.

One of my grandfather's was a sharecropper and one was a coal miner. My father has less than a 10th grade education and never made ANY money (our family income was below the poverty line), but all three of his children finished college and are self-supporting. Only one of us is really rich (and he doesn't share with us nor does he need to), but we are productive members of society.

One of my siblings who went to a very mediocre at best small public college (which had just been upgraded from a junior college) is worth over $200,000,000. No one gave him anything - including scholarships. He made it ALL on his own.

Many of you are from the Northeast and may be familiar with Break and Circus stores which have now become Whole Food stores. Did you know that the original founder was in immigrant with NO education who started with a pushcart in the streets of Boston? This was not 100 years ago either. The man is probably still in his 50s and is VERY rich. I could probably come up with a dozen other examples of people who went from poverty to wealth - the over $100 million kind of wealth.

As long as you can feed, clothe, house and educate your family, I don't think it matters whether or not you have an extra ten mill sitting around. The only reason that I wish I had more money would be so I could donate more than I do now. I know that I could have made a LOT more money than I did (although it was enough) because my over-riding career objective was not to hate to go to work in the morning.

Newfie2000
06-21-2006, 01:51 AM
Right after I got finished reading through this thread I received this email. I agree with many of the points you all have brought up... on both sides of this issue and have remained silent on this one. But I could not pass up the opportunity to share this email with you all... take it for what its worth!





The Difference Between Rich/Poor People?

One day, the father of a very wealthy family took his son on a trip to the country with the express purpose of showing him how poor people live.

They spent a couple of days and nights on the farm of what would be considered a very poor family.

On their return from their trip, the father asked his son, "How was the trip?"

"It was great, Dad."

"Did you see how poor people live?" the father asked.

"Oh yeah," said the son.

"So, tell me, what did you learn from the trip?" asked the father.

The son answered:

"I saw that we have one dog and they had four.

We have a pool that reaches to the middle of our garden and they have a creek that has no end.

We have imported lanterns in our garden and they have the stars at night.

Our patio reaches to the front yard and they have the whole horizon.

We have a small piece of land to live on and they have fields that go beyond our sight.

We have servants who serve us, but they serve others.

We buy our food, but they grow theirs.

We have walls around our property to protect us, they have friends to protect them."

The boy's father was speechless.

pearlieq
06-21-2006, 07:14 AM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:

Why is this a problem? Do you assume "the rich" (whatever that refers to) never had to make it on $7 an hour? Plus, wouldn't you want advice from someone who has been successful at accumulating and maintaining wealth?

While there are exceptions to every rule, most people can at least do SOMETHING to better their situation. My family went from government cheese to "comfortable" in one generation. It was hard work, and I'm not about to have someone dump on me or dismiss me as out of touch or irrelevant just because I've done well.

Glorifying poverty is not the answer. Claiming you're too poor to better your situation is just a cop-out. Playing "woe is me" isn't productive.

mommiepoppins
06-21-2006, 07:17 AM
I guess I am both. I plan for the next geeration and sat night :rotfl2:

dustysky
06-21-2006, 07:26 AM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:

No kidding!! So easy for people to talk the talk.

Everyone of you can talk all you want about how being rich is a mind set but let me tell you, my power company, phone company, grocery store, and gas station could all care less about how MINDFULLY wealthy I am.
So please stop acting like we should all be singing Kumbaya, the fact is some of us struggle and we struggle hard. If you are already behind from living on a lower income then pulling ahead is almost definitely out of the question.
Until you have had to worry how dinner was going to be placed on your family table then please don't tell anyone how EASY it is to live on $7.00 an hour.

crisi
06-21-2006, 07:42 AM
No kidding!! So easy for people to talk the talk.

Everyone of you can talk all you want about how being rich is a mind set but let me tell you, my power company, phone company, grocery store, and gas station could all care less about how MINDFULLY wealthy I am.
So please stop acting like we should all be singing Kumbaya, the fact is some of us struggle and we struggle hard. If you are already behind from living on a lower income then pulling ahead is almost definitely out of the question.
Until you have had to worry how dinner was going to be placed on your family table then please don't tell anyone how EASY it is to live on $7.00 an hour.

Had to worry about putting food on the table. Made less than $7 an hour. Set my thermostat in a Minnesota winter at 58 degrees - slept with a pillowcase over my head for warmth. Did not own a winter coat. Did not own a car. Owned a fifty pound bag of rice and a fifty pound bag of black beans, supplimented with vegetables and dairy from the salvage market (One of Mrs. Pete's favorite place to shop - I hope I never go back to that place again).

Once rented a room in a house for $75 a month that had been a closet and lived with a herion addict who was a complete stranger because that was what I could afford in college.

Was 'forced' into a sexual relationship with my boss because I could not afford to lose my eight dollar an hour job (that was later - I'd gotten raises by them).

Would you like to tell me again how EASY I had it?

dustysky
06-21-2006, 08:02 AM
crisi, you are the first person who has made it clear how difficult it can be. Most of the posts are eluding that you should just be able to save a few bucks and viola life is all better again. When you live on a low income even to save $5.00 might mean you would not have enough to pay a bill.
Also, the things you speak of are things a single person COULD do if they had to in order to get by (and yes I have) not a family with children. Would you take your children to a crack house to save some money, I hope not.

Everyone of us on here have a different background, some people might have family who has let them stay in there homes WHILE living on that $7.00 an hour.... some don't have that luxury. We also all live in different parts of the country. I am in FL and right in the middle of where Hurricane Charley hit, our rents went from $700.00 a month to WELL over $1200. a month, however, the pay has all stayed the same. How do you pull up from that?


My husband works fulltime, he makes more then $10. and under $20., I have just finished going back to school so that I can work to help our household. Even with what he makes, we are a family of 4 and we again, struggle very hard to make sure nothing is shut off at our house on a monthly basis. I hope that in the end we will have more money but it is not EASY or a FAST process.

My point is just that it is not an easy road and people who have not been there shouldn't even consider giving advise.

hentob
06-21-2006, 08:39 AM
My husband works fulltime, he makes more then $10. and under $20., I have just finished going back to school so that I can work to help our household. Even with what he makes, we are a family of 4 and we again, struggle very hard to make sure nothing is shut off at our house on a monthly basis. I hope that in the end we will have more money but it is not EASY or a FAST process.

My point is just that it is not an easy road and people who have not been there shouldn't even consider giving advise.

:confused3 But yet you purchased APs for your family and frequent WDW often. You stay in hotels during your visits. You go to Universal and IOA. How are you poor? If you are struggling to keep your utilities going, how do you have extra money to do all of the "fun" things? I think this is what the wise people are saying on this thread. It is all about decisions. You are a family of four, you don't know month to month if you will have "anything shut off" in your house, yet you are staying in hotels and frequenting amusement parks. How does this happen?

crisi
06-21-2006, 08:40 AM
I don't think anyone thinks its easy or fast. But I think that its frustrating for those of us who have been there - I know I speak for myself - to hear the constant refrain of "but you don't understand." I do understand. And "you haven't been there" - how do you know where I've been? Do I need to give my financial resume everytime I post? I also understand that people who continue to say "it can't be done" won't do it.

(Disneysteve, Mrs.Pete and arminnie - for sure - have all "been there" as well - maybe not at the "living with a herion addict" or "being forced into a sexual relationship" level of despiration, but I know that all of them have mixed finanical pasts.)

One thing for sure, I'd have never have chosen to have children while I made that income. Nor would I have had children with my first husband, who was not a stable sort of guy (I married believing he'd grow up. He still hasn't.) We've made some choices for financial stablity because financial stablity was important to us, that others won't choose to do - I'm a working mom for a number of reasons, but one is that in this economy, at any time one of us could be jobless with no notice. At one point we were house shopping in Texas because my husband had a job offer there for more money - I'm not fond of Texas, my family is close here, my husband's family is close here, but we considered it (my husband got another offer closer to home). We've both worked jobs we would have loved to quit. And, despite doing fairly well now, I'm back in school at the moment to add to my skills and my employability.

And I'm not young....I'm 40. My kids are six and seven. There has been time, hard work, sacrifice and luck between my needle junkie roomie and now. And I'm not discounting the luck - we were in the right place at the right time.

dustysky
06-21-2006, 08:55 AM
you purchased APs for your family and frequent WDW often. You stay in hotels during your visits.

What do you consider often?? I am a Disney lover, I would like to be there every day of my life, I did buy passes with our taxes and I have posted in the past that it was a HUGE mistake because even with those passes we can not afford the food, gas, or hotels it takes for even a day trip.

You go to Universal and IOA.

Hmm.... we havent been there in well over two years.

This thread and my input has nothing to do with MY personal spending. I will stick to the fact that THE PEOPLE here who DO make $7.00 an hour should not be talked to like children who do not know how to manage there money!

hentob
06-21-2006, 09:16 AM
What do you consider often?? I am a Disney lover, I would like to be there every day of my life, I did buy passes with our taxes and I have posted in the past that it was a HUGE mistake because even with those passes we can not afford the food, gas, or hotels it takes for even a day trip.



Yet you went for a three day trip last month? :confused3

I just have issues with people that say they are struggling to pay utilities and that "pulling ahead is almost definitely out of the question", but then put themselves in a position to fail over and over again.

Don't "poo-poo" the people on this thread that are trying to help.

You said this yourself " I am in FL and right in the middle of where Hurricane Charley hit, our rents went from $700.00 a month to WELL over $1200. a month, however, the pay has all stayed the same. How do you pull up from that?" Ummm--Don't use your tax refund for AP's to start. Also, don't blame the hurricane. That is a cop-out. Within the past eight months, you not only frequented WDW, but you also visited Busch Gardens and the Nick Hotel. :sad2: What does Charlie have to do with you barely making your bills at the end of the month?

Also said by you:: So please stop acting like we should all be singing Kumbaya, the fact is some of us struggle and we struggle hard. If you are already behind from living on a lower income then pulling ahead is almost definitely out of the question No it is not "out of the question". You just need to change your lifestyle. If you don't want to, no skin off my back. But PLEASE don't be so snarky towards those that are trying to help you.

crisi
06-21-2006, 09:36 AM
It makes me angry and sad. I do understand what it is like to be poor. I start to wonder however, if the people claiming poverty understand what it is like to be poor. Because taking a family to WDW is out of the question when you don't own a winter coat......

By the way, if there is anyone on this board who does make $7 an hour (as their high household income - doesn't count if your husband makes more and you make $7 an hour working at Target on the weekends) and is planning a trip to Disney (that they are paying for - doesn't count if your parents are buying the trip), please speak up. I'm very interested to hear how you are juggling it.

dustysky
06-21-2006, 10:30 AM
Hentob,

First of all show me a single post that I said I was poor. I HAVE been poor, I never once said I was at this time. I think POOR and struggling are to different things. We struggle because I LIKE doing nice things and going places.
I refuse to have a life filled with no trips, or movies or fun for myself or my kids so that we can save a few extra bucks a week. That is ME (the lifestyle I CHOOSE).
We do not own a single credit card, hmmm I wonder how many of those "rich" people are sitting on a mound of credit card debt so they can go to Disney or on a cruise .... is that responsible??

I was defending the people on here, that as I said before, are being talked to like idiots who have no comment since simply because of there wages.

So again, I never said I am poor NOW nor did I say, I or my husband makes $7.00 an hour, I did say that comments like this:

Yeah, if I weren't making $7 bucks an hour I too could plan 3 generations ahead.

are not true! IT IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE!

There are other people who were posting on this thread who also agree with me but because of people like you who attack instead of trying to see the point they have run for the hill.

I am not sure if you know me personally, I can only assume yes because a stranger would not care or take the time to research every post I have made.
But if you do know me then you know exactly how my trips were funded and spent. You would know for sure that staying at a Disney hotel is not an option, that priceline is my best friend, and that we take food to the park with us when we can.

What does Charlie have to do with you barely making your bills at the end of the month?

I gave you an example of the effects the hurricane had on our community, NOT an excuse. And it has a great deal to do with it, LIKE I ALREADY SAID, our rents have tripled and wages have stayed the same.

So next time you feel the need to research me, give me a call.... I will be happy to tell you what we gave up that month to go on our next trip.That way when you post about ME you an have all the correct details.

Free4Life11
06-21-2006, 10:54 AM
Why is this a problem? Do you assume "the rich" (whatever that refers to) never had to make it on $7 an hour? Plus, wouldn't you want advice from someone who has been successful at accumulating and maintaining wealth?

The point is that many times it comes off as incredibly patronizing. I also think it's made to sound easier than it really is.

Everyone of us on here have a different background, some people might have family who has let them stay in there homes WHILE living on that $7.00 an hour.... some don't have that luxury. We also all live in different parts of the country. I am in FL and right in the middle of where Hurricane Charley hit, our rents went from $700.00 a month to WELL over $1200. a month, however, the pay has all stayed the same. How do you pull up from that?

I think that is a good point. Every situation is different. Just because something has worked for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone in every single situation so don't make generalizations. Yes there are some very basic principles but every situation is different and has unique challenges.

Free4Life11
06-21-2006, 10:57 AM
You misquoted me. That second quote wasn't mine.

arminnie
06-21-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't think anyone thinks its easy or fast. But I think that its frustrating for those of us who have been there - I know I speak for myself - to hear the constant refrain of "but you don't understand." I do understand. And "you haven't been there" - how do you know where I've been? Do I need to give my financial resume everytime I post? I also understand that people who continue to say "it can't be done" won't do it.

Like you I DO understand. It's not fast, it's not easy, and it might not even really happen until the next generation. But the "it can't be done" is all too often just an excuse for perpetuating the cycle of poverty.

For those who are raising their children in poverty, you CAN teach your children to go down a different path. That doesn't cost anything. I knew at a very early age that I did not want to be poor as an adult.

Not everyone can be a multi-millionaire and be rich. Some people do get a head start in life. But none of that means that generation after generation shouldn't even try to better themselves.

No one is telling the $7 an hour folks that their financial situation is just hunky dory and to relax and enjoy it all, but make sure that is not the message you are giving your children.

Quite frankly there are some people living in poverty (getting government benefits not even the $7 and hour) who probably cannot ever hope to reach even "comfortable" but they should want and expect their children or grandchildren to do better.

MrsPete
06-21-2006, 11:26 AM
I don't think anyone thinks its easy or fast. But I think that its frustrating for those of us who have been there - I know I speak for myself - to hear the constant refrain of "but you don't understand." I do understand. And "you haven't been there" - how do you know where I've been? Do I need to give my financial resume everytime I post? I also understand that people who continue to say "it can't be done" won't do it.

(Disneysteve, Mrs.Pete and arminnie - for sure - have all "been there" as well - maybe not at the "living with a herion addict" or "being forced into a sexual relationship" level of despiration, but I know that all of them have mixed finanical pasts.)

One thing for sure, I'd have never have chosen to have children while I made that income. Nor would I have had children with my first husband, who was not a stable sort of guy (I married believing he'd grow up. He still hasn't.) We've made some choices for financial stablity because financial stablity was important to us, that others won't choose to do - I'm a working mom for a number of reasons, but one is that in this economy, at any time one of us could be jobless with no notice. At one point we were house shopping in Texas because my husband had a job offer there for more money - I'm not fond of Texas, my family is close here, my husband's family is close here, but we considered it (my husband got another offer closer to home). We've both worked jobs we would have loved to quit. And, despite doing fairly well now, I'm back in school at the moment to add to my skills and my employability.

And I'm not young....I'm 40. My kids are six and seven. There has been time, hard work, sacrifice and luck between my needle junkie roomie and now. And I'm not discounting the luck - we were in the right place at the right time.Feel free to speak for me too -- you've summed up my position exactly. I'm also 40 and very comfortable financially, but I certainly understand what it is like to be poor -- I spent a good number of years living in poverty.

The difference between us and people who stay in that position is that we didn't sit back and whine, "I can't make it on this amount of money." We cut our coats from the cloth we had, and we made do. At my worst, I lived in a two-bedroom apartment with five people (my share of the rent was $80). I didn't have a heroin-addict roommate, but I did have two who smoked pot constantly, and that caused a lot of arguments between us. I would've loved to move out, but I couldn't afford to do it.

I didn't get out of this situation overnight, and I'd never suggest that it was easy. I'd estimate I lived in poverty from age 10 to age 22 -- at times it was absolute destitute poverty, at other times it was almost-making-it poverty, but at no point in those years was I ever even close to the bottom-rung of comfortable. I clearly remember pretending I was skipping lunch because I was dieting; the truth is I was ashamed to walk up and say "free lunch" to the lunch ladies. I remember the year my one Christmas gift was a new set of sheets. In college I remember my only pair of tennis shoes having holes in the soles. I remember my sophomore year NC drastically cut financial aid, and I chose to take on a 3rd job rather than borrow. I remember sneaking food out of the cafeteria on Thursdays and Fridays (my meal plan was all-you-can-eat during the week, but I couldn't afford a 7-day plan); I'd even save the plastic bags and re-use them.

From about 22 to 30 my husband and I were both working, and we had more than was absolutely necessary but we weren't exactly comfortable. The budget was small, so we only had one car; this was tough because we lived way out in the country without any form of public transportation, and we both worked. We started saving then, though we certainly weren't saving much. Around 30 we suddenly found that we had extra money every month, so we really stepped up the savings. Now at 40 I consider us very comfortable.

It's VERY possible to PLAN for 3 generations while making $7 an hour. When I was in college and literally couldn't afford to eat, I was planning for MY future, knowing that it would make my FUTURE CHILDREN's lives better, and knowing that if I raised them right, my GRANDCHILDREN would also have better lives. I certainly wasn't putting away money for them -- or even myself -- at that point, but I certainly was doing a great number of things to dig myself out of a difficult situation: mainly avoiding debt, working towards a degree.

crisi
06-21-2006, 11:44 AM
It isn't easy. It IS simple in concept. Spend less than you earn - no matter how little you earn. Seperate your needs from your wants - true needs (you CAN live off rice and beans, you CAN live with the thermostat set below 60, you CAN live without a Disney trip). Think ahead - from the near term (if I spend $1 for this bottle of pop today, what won't I be able to afford tomorrow), to the long term (what do I need to do before I have children, what do I need to do to plan for retirement, what can I do to make live better for my grandchildren). But, it isn't easy. I know that standing on a street corner in a sweater and fall jacket when the windchill is 20 below isn't easy (I did have a credit card, I could have charged a winter coat, but I didn't have any way to pay for it). I know that looking at your sixth meal of rice and beans in as many days isn't easy.

momof3littlelilos
06-21-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm not doing quotes because there's just too much here.
I don't think this thread started with the tone that might have been intended. It did feel a bit patronizing, and the original quote implies an air of superiority over those who are still struggling.
I think it's a drag that when dustysky tried to illustrate how things are difficult for her she got called to task for what someone saw as her frivolous spending. Why begrudge someone for taking advantage of a good deal and trying to create some warm family memories for their kids?
I wasn't speaking of anyone here or their personal situation - just the rich people I actually know IRL. The original title was The Difference Between the Rich and the Poor. There's a lot of grey area - working class and middle class. I used to be poor, now we're working class. I will never be rich. The people I've known who were also born poor, they'll never be rich. That's not defeatism, it's just realistic.
pearliq - when you write "Plus, wouldn't you want advice from someone who has been successful at accumulating and maintaining wealth?" - it sounds a little condescending. I might have missedt the point when advice was requested, if not why make the assumption that it's going to be welcome, or even appropriate advice to the person recieving it?
I also dislike it when advice is given out on how the poor should raise their kids. It implies that we don't do normal free stuff to make them better people - like using libraries or reading to them or encouraging them in their education. As a former poor single mother and now a working class married mom, I can assure you that we do the best we can.
:furious: (my DD wants me to use the flaming angry smilie...I am not flaming angry, just frusterated at my inablity to be heard and understood)
the long term - yes, we put money we can't afford into the 401(k).
The putting off kids thing, that's great. But as a person with kids who's struggling I'm not sure how you mean for me to interpret that. Whenever I here that I always infer that the speaker means my kids should have been aborted or passed on to someone else. I'm sure that's not your intent, so I ask about the implication.

dustysky
06-21-2006, 12:05 PM
You misquoted me. That second quote wasn't mine.

Sorry about that, I copy and pasted the quote thing..... I will be more carefull :)

arminnie
06-21-2006, 12:23 PM
I also dislike it when advice is given out on how the poor should raise their kids. It implies that we don't do normal free stuff to make them better people - like using libraries or reading to them or encouraging them in their education. As a former poor single mother and now a working class married mom, I can assure you that we do the best we can.

I am sure that you are doing a great job, but way too many poor people are not. And I'm sure that there are way too many middle class, rich, etc people who are not also. It's just that the consequences are so much worse for the poor kids.

You've made a big step by moving from poor to working class. That's really great, and I commend you on it.

Sometimes people in real poverty do not want their children to change too much; they are afraid of losing them. My own mother cried when I went off to a very expensive private school - and they paid nothing towards it. I remember her saying "how can you go someplace that costs so much?" She really would have been much happier if I had not been reaching out to do better. It frightened her. In the long run she was happy, and as the oldest I was able to help her get a better job when she was in her 50s.

crisi
06-21-2006, 01:20 PM
The putting off kids thing, that's great. But as a person with kids who's struggling I'm not sure how you mean for me to interpret that. Whenever I here that I always infer that the speaker means my kids should have been aborted or passed on to someone else. I'm sure that's not your intent, so I ask about the implication.

I mean that if you have the opportunity to control your future, grab it. Your past is your past - you have to deal with it. Few people would trade their kids for more money, but recognize that you are the one that made that choice.

Carrie Ellis
06-21-2006, 01:24 PM
In many many countries our poor are rich to them. For hundreds of thousands of years people lived with out AC but now, one day without is a national crisis. The idea of living without cable or internet would shock some folks.

I homeschool my twin 9 year old boys and I just finished a speech to them about the importance of wanting to learn and being aggressive. I told them that I will not support them as adults. Right now it is important that they take their education and learning serious because they will need it. We talked about consequences. Anyway, I was kind of put out with them today because they were whining about doing anything. We discussed how lucky we are to live in America where opportunities are available. I want them to be happy but responsible.

I would love to be close to family but I would not stay if I had to struggle to take care of my family. My extended family lives outside of Dallas but we have lived in Iowa, Nebraska, Virginia and now Georgia. We could have had the mentality that we had to stay in Texas but we would have missed opportunities. I could understand not moving if you had ailing parents but I don't understand any other reason if you could improve your family's welfare.

To each our own. We are lucky to live where we have choices.

pearlieq
06-21-2006, 02:04 PM
I mean that if you have the opportunity to control your future, grab it. Your past is your past - you have to deal with it. Few people would trade their kids for more money, but recognize that you are the one that made that choice.

Exactly! Having a child is the single biggest predictor that a woman will end up in poverty. Kids, as much as we love them, are a huge economic risk and burden and they severely limit women's choices and opportunities.

I would encourage any young women to delay having kids as long as possible and to be ultra, ultra careful about birth control.

PaulDavid's mom
06-21-2006, 03:12 PM
Exactly! Having a child is the single biggest predictor that a woman will end up in poverty. Kids, as much as we love them, are a huge economic risk and burden and they severely limit women's choices and opportunities.

I would encourage any young women to delay having kids as long as possible and to be ultra, ultra careful about birth control.

I understand this quote. It IS a huge dent in the pocket to have kids. But at the same time I want to cringe at this (nothing against the poster). Not everyone wants to wait to have children. Some should. But it doesn't mean they need to. I really do agree with both sides of the argument here. I understand that working hard will get you everywhere. I also understand the statements coming from those who live from paycheck to paycheck.
I myself live paycheck to paycheck (trust me it's not huge). But I do consider myself comfortable. Not super comfy, but enough to not be struggling to get food on the table. I am learning that it takes A LOT of disapline if I want to get ahead. I have to cut a lot of corners. I had to get rid of things I want but really can do without. I even went back to school and am searching for a better job than I already have (one that allows me to use the skills I learned in college)My goal is to someday be comfortable enough where I CAN take a trip to Disney with my family.
I guess my point is that I agree with both sides and I respect both sides of the arguement.

TBuss
06-21-2006, 03:53 PM
I grew up in a middle-class family ... we had food on the table, toys to play with, occasionally took a family vacation (to a tiny cabin in the middle of no-where, not Disney!!). My parents lived within their means ... they both worked hard and had opposite schedules so there was always someone home. They put family before all else. They taught me the value of money and how to budget. I am very aware of the important life lesson my parents gave me - and am very grateful for it!! They also taught me not to judge other people till you have walked a mile in their shoes ... another lesson I am grateful for having learned.

My husband had a very different upbringing. His father was an alcoholic. His father and uncle had a business together and they had a decent income but because of his father's disease (and the funds it took to support his habit) the family struggled to pay bills. Now, every discussion his family has is about money - they sit around and discuss how much so-and-so makes or how much so-and-so spent on something. My husbands father expects everyone to pay all his bills - he tries to make us feel guilty for not paying what he thinks is our part. I don't have a problem helping him but he thinks we should pay the rent on his house when he has an opportunity to live in a senior housing complex or move in with my sister-in-law!! Is this is the "alcoholic" or the "poor man" in him talking?

As a result of all this financial stress, my husband does not know how to budget. He is obsessed with "hording" money. He pays only the "minimum amount due" on all of his credit card bills even though the interest is higher than the interest he is earning on his bank account. I have talked about it with him till I am blue in the face - he won't change his ways. So, we have separate bank accounts, credit cards, etc - otherwise we would fight constantly about money.

hentob
06-21-2006, 04:23 PM
Hentob,

First of all show me a single post that I said I was poor. I HAVE been poor, I never once said I was at this time. I think POOR and struggling are to different things. We struggle because I LIKE doing nice things and going places.


My bad. :upsidedow I guess it is a matter of personal comfort. I would never be comfortable sweating it out at the end of the month to see if I would have a phone or lights/power for my house, b/c I chose to have fun irresponsibly. (BTW, you can have fun for free ;) Parks, playgrounds, museums, etc.) I would never want to pass that legacy down to my children. I would also never want to teach them The Blame Game (we had a hurricane and that is why we struggle), when infact it has to do with poor choices.


To each his own. It is just a shame that this mentality is passed down from generation to generation :sad2:

punkin
06-21-2006, 04:34 PM
Exactly! Having a child is the single biggest predictor that a woman will end up in poverty. Kids, as much as we love them, are a huge economic risk and burden and they severely limit women's choices and opportunities.

I would encourage any young women to delay having kids as long as possible and to be ultra, ultra careful about birth control.

I am offended by this. Yes, my children limited my choices and opportunities (I still wound up with a JD, thank you very much) but at least I am not like many women I know spending $20K or more on in vitro because they waited into their 30s to get pregnant.

I was raised really poor (my mother was a single mother on welfare) and believe me, when you are trying to put food on the table for 4 people with nothing but food stamps, you have enough troubles today without worrying about saving for tomorrow (besides, if you try to save on welfare, they reduce your benefit, so the incentive is not to save).

My mother managed to claw her way into a technical education and got married (boy did that second income help) and had both children go to college (I went to a VERY expensive private school) and professional school. I know it can be done, but the condecending tone of some of the posts on this thread just rubs me the wong way.

kfeuer
06-21-2006, 04:38 PM
I would encourage any young women to delay having kids as long as possible and to be ultra, ultra careful about birth control.

I disagree that every woman should put off having kids as long as possible. I have friends who waited until their late 30's to start trying to have kids and discovered they had a very hard time getting pregnant. If you're in a secure financial place and are ready for kids, then why wait?

Now obviously if someone is living on the poverty level, having kids is not the best idea. I just disagree with the notion that nobody should have children when they're younger. And for the record, I was 30 when I had my first so I wasn't a young mom.

dustysky
06-21-2006, 04:56 PM
hentob,

You are clearly someone who likes to fight or start trouble, :confused3 you are now insulting my parenting and you have no right to do so. But per normal people who think they know everything will eventually turn to attacks (even if they do it backhanded to try and be sly). Typical.

SadieDog
06-21-2006, 04:58 PM
No kidding!! So easy for people to talk the talk.

Everyone of you can talk all you want about how being rich is a mind set but let me tell you, my power company, phone company, grocery store, and gas station could all care less about how MINDFULLY wealthy I am.
So please stop acting like we should all be singing Kumbaya, the fact is some of us struggle and we struggle hard. If you are already behind from living on a lower income then pulling ahead is almost definitely out of the question.
Until you have had to worry how dinner was going to be placed on your family table then please don't tell anyone how EASY it is to live on $7.00 an hour.

You said this well. Many people work very hard and make $7 an hour. Some people simply say "if you work hard you will become financially comfortable." Some of the hardest working people make low wages.

disneysteve
06-21-2006, 05:06 PM
(Disneysteve, Mrs.Pete and arminnie - for sure - have all "been there" as well - maybe not at the "living with a herion addict" or "being forced into a sexual relationship" level of despiration, but I know that all of them have mixed finanical pasts.)
I've intentionally stayed out of this thread and will continue to do so, but since my name got brought up I wanted to respond to this.

I have never been poor. I was raised by middle class parents in a small row home in Philadelphia. We always had what we needed. The bills were always paid. We took modest vacations every year.

Once I left home, I lived frugally, but still comfortably by most standards. My first apartment was a 1-room efficiency. I then moved to a 2-bedroom and then rented a small house from my soon-to-be wife's aunt. DW joined me there after the wedding. Then we bought our current home.

I never really worked for minimum wage (although if you calculate out the per hour rate I earned during internship and residency it was sometimes below minimum during those 60-80 hour work weeks).

So while I may understand frugal living pretty well, I can't say I have any idea what it is like to struggle to pay the bills or keep the utilities on or put food on the table. That's why I've stayed out of this thread (but continue to follow it as I find it very interesting).

MrsPete
06-21-2006, 05:23 PM
Sometimes people in real poverty do not want their children to change too much; they are afraid of losing them. My own mother cried when I went off to a very expensive private school - and they paid nothing towards it.I can relate to that. My mother did everything she could to prevent me from going to college straight after high school. I knew even then what was going on: she didn't want to go to college right after high school, but he father pushed her into it. She flunked out in a short time, but she returned more than a decade later. At that point she was ready to study, and she earned a degree. She had trouble accepting that I was ready right after high school.

MrsPete
06-21-2006, 05:30 PM
Exactly! Having a child is the single biggest predictor that a woman will end up in poverty. Kids, as much as we love them, are a huge economic risk and burden and they severely limit women's choices and opportunities.

I would encourage any young women to delay having kids as long as possible and to be ultra, ultra careful about birth control.Having a child too soon IS a huge risk -- and not only for the mother's future. We all owe it to our children to bring them into the world into a family that not only wants them, but also can support them. Having a child is not a decision to make based simply upon emotions and desire.

MrsPete
06-21-2006, 05:32 PM
You said this well. Many people work very hard and make $7 an hour. Some people simply say "if you work hard you will become financially comfortable." Some of the hardest working people make low wages.Speaking only for myself, I never said that hard work was enough. Breaking out of the $7/hour world takes planning and smarts as well as hard work.

Back when I was in college, I waited tables. Believe me, I worked hard. If I'd just stayed in that job, I'd still be doing the exact same work, working just as hard, bringing home the same money. Hard work wouldn't have been enough.

Instead, I planned and earned a degree so that I could move into a job with a future. A degree isn't the only way to move up in the world, but it is probably the most common.

crisi
06-21-2006, 06:02 PM
I've intentionally stayed out of this thread and will continue to do so, but since my name got brought up I wanted to respond to this.

I have never been poor. I was raised by middle class parents in a small row home in Philadelphia. We always had what we needed. The bills were always paid. We took modest vacations every year.

Once I left home, I lived frugally, but still comfortably by most standards. My first apartment was a 1-room efficiency. I then moved to a 2-bedroom and then rented a small house from my soon-to-be wife's aunt. DW joined me there after the wedding. Then we bought our current home.

I never really worked for minimum wage (although if you calculate out the per hour rate I earned during internship and residency it was sometimes below minimum during those 60-80 hour work weeks).

So while I may understand frugal living pretty well, I can't say I have any idea what it is like to struggle to pay the bills or keep the utilities on or put food on the table. That's why I've stayed out of this thread (but continue to follow it as I find it very interesting).


I figured as much, but residency wages don't make anyone wealthy or give anyone a huge disposable income. My cousin in law did his in around 1995 for about $20,000 a year. Not the poverty line, but not rolling in cash. (They - my cousin and her husband - remind me of you - he's a cardiologist - and they still had their books on boards and cement block last time I was over...but, by God, all three children have their college fully funded. I admired a necklace of hers once - her response "Kohl's - on clearence - $4!")

I grew up middle class (my parents have a six bedroom home on a lake) and only struggled through college, through my first marriage, and then after my first husband left. I did have the "safety net" of moving back with my parents, but if "I'd rather live with a heroin addict" is a clue, that really isn't an acceptable choice for my family. My parents are great, no abuse or anything (physical, chemical or otherwise) - they just think grown ups should be self sufficient. The rice and beans would have had to have run dry before I moved home - and then I'd have had to live by their rules and pay rent.....at 19 I was convinced (probably stupidly) that I was better off where I was.

crisi
06-21-2006, 06:07 PM
Speaking only for myself, I never said that hard work was enough. Breaking out of the $7/hour world takes planning and smarts as well as hard work.

Back when I was in college, I waited tables. Believe me, I worked hard. If I'd just stayed in that job, I'd still be doing the exact same work, working just as hard, bringing home the same money. Hard work wouldn't have been enough.

Instead, I planned and earned a degree so that I could move into a job with a future. A degree isn't the only way to move up in the world, but it is probably the most common.

Nor have I. If anything, this thread is about needing more than hard work. You need to plan past "Saturday night." Maybe three generations is a little much for most people.....

And luck. I credit a lot of being comfortable to luck.

SadieDog
06-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Speaking only for myself, I never said that hard work was enough. Breaking out of the $7/hour world takes planning and smarts as well as hard work.

Back when I was in college, I waited tables. Believe me, I worked hard. If I'd just stayed in that job, I'd still be doing the exact same work, working just as hard, bringing home the same money. Hard work wouldn't have been enough.

Instead, I planned and earned a degree so that I could move into a job with a future. A degree isn't the only way to move up in the world, but it is probably the most common.

I did not mention your name and was not speaking of you in particular. Just that I have heard people say this over the years. Many of whom have never been in a low income position and should not be making certain comments. Have also heard comments about low income people being too lazy or unmotivated to earn a degree. I have to agree with you, wating table is hard work!

hentob
06-21-2006, 07:40 PM
hentob,

You are clearly someone who likes to fight or start trouble, :confused3 you are now insulting my parenting and you have no right to do so. But per normal people who think they know everything will eventually turn to attacks (even if they do it backhanded to try and be sly). Typical.


Nope. Not starting trouble. And absolutely NOT attacking! Just stating facts.

I did not insult your parenting. Raise your children the way you want. Teach them what you want. Pass down whatever financial habits you choose for them to carry throughout their adult lives. If you think what you are doing is right, who cares what I say. I teach my children different financial habits than you. Again, no biggie. :confused3

You are obliviously in defensive mode right now, so I think it is best to abandon ship on my end as far as our communication on this topic. I will not change your mind and you will not change mine.

No hard feelings. :flower3:

hentob
06-21-2006, 07:42 PM
Having a child too soon IS a huge risk -- and not only for the mother's future. We all owe it to our children to bring them into the world into a family that not only wants them, but also can support them. Having a child is not a decision to make based simply upon emotions and desire.

Very well said ::yes::

punkin
06-21-2006, 07:52 PM
Reading this thread is amazing...it's like a fight between people who simply do not speak the same language. Each side is stating its case without understanding the other side at all. popcorn::

georgia4now
06-21-2006, 07:59 PM
I just love the rich giving advice to the poor about how to live on that $7 per hour. :rolleyes:

At least they (the rich) are qualified to give advice. Many, if not most of them were not born rich, they just worked their butts off and made informed decisions!

That's like saying professors are too smart to teach students! The idea is that if you're working for $7 per hour, you may want to pay attention to someone who has been successful.

I was poor as dirt my first few years out of college, now, I am very comfortable...because I was a poor person who listened to the advice of the rich! ;)

pearlieq
06-21-2006, 08:04 PM
I disagree that every woman should put off having kids as long as possible. I have friends who waited until their late 30's to start trying to have kids and discovered they had a very hard time getting pregnant. If you're in a secure financial place and are ready for kids, then why wait?


ARGH!!! :crazy:

I'm not picking on the poster I quoted, but sometimes it drives me crazy that we need to qualify, qualify, qualify in order to get a point across on the DIS. I feel like I need to include a tiny-print disclaimer at the bottom of all of my posts! :teeth:

OF COURSE I didn't mean that you should just gratuitously delay having kids even though you're secure. I'm just saying that the longer a woman can delay having kids, the more chance she will have to establish herself financially, therefore mitigating the risk of having kids.

punkin, I don't know what you found to be offended about, but I'm honestly not interested in hashing it out, since I'm starting to get the impression that you're not going to see any other viewpoint as anything other than "condescending". It's funny you make the point about being obstinate, since I'm getting the same feeling from you.

hentob
06-21-2006, 08:28 PM
I was poor as dirt my first few years out of college, now, I am very comfortable...because I was a poor person who listened to the advice of the rich! ;)

You are very wise :wave2:

Lisa loves Pooh
06-21-2006, 09:19 PM
Is it only me that doesn't believe the original article had anything to do with other than money.

Read "The Millionaire Next Door".

It has nothing to do with wanting to become a millionaire nor becoming "rich"--it has to do with spending and saving wisely and not wasting what you have.


Reading a bit too much into all this IMHO and pitting the classes against each other with who is really better off. I don't think the original article OP quoted had anything to do with that.

Free4Life11
06-21-2006, 09:56 PM
At least they (the rich) are qualified to give advice. Many, if not most of them were not born rich, they just worked their butts off and made informed decisions!

There it goes again. Just because someone doesn't rake in a crap ton of money doesn't mean they aren't "qualified" to give advice. Is there some certification test now?

LuluLovesDisney
06-21-2006, 10:12 PM
I'm with you PearlieQ. I have exactly ten teen moms/moms to be in my classes (I teach high school). Mrs Pete stated it very well. Children deserve a good start- a stable family that can love and support them. Low SES and ESL children comprise about 70% of the failures in my school district.

"Rich" and "Poor" are emotionally charged words,(and both negatively so, if you ask me) but we shouldn't let that stand in the way of a really interesting article, the point of which was "plan ahead to have the best chance of success." Can't we all agree that's good advice?

Here's a favorite quote:

"Failure means giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment."

I think about this when I want to eat high calorie foods (Do I want this cookie, or do I want to lose weight?) when I want to procrastinate (Do I want to DIS now and be up until 4 am grading papers?) when I want to spend money (Do I want these shoes, or would I rather put that into my Disney fund or my savings?) I really think that's the main point of the article- not who's better than whom, but how we all can become better off.

Lisa loves Pooh
06-22-2006, 01:50 AM
There it goes again. Just because someone doesn't rake in a crap ton of money doesn't mean they aren't "qualified" to give advice. Is there some certification test now?


I'm not getting the offense.

Call me clueless. :confused3

If someone is doing better at you at "anything" (sports, singing, piano playing, cross stitching, investing--WHATEVER!!!!)--wouldn't they be someone qualified to provide you advice.

Nothing is forcing you to take said advice--but why wouldn't you listen to someone who may be a notch above you?

If it is someone who can save money--I don't care who they are or how much they make--they are a notch above me and I wouldn't be throwing a fit over it.

And lets not confuse irresponsible rich (MC Hammer and bankruptcy) to those who earn there money and allow their money to work for them instead of them working for the money (Bill Gates).

That's the key point in "The Millionaire Next Door". Live below your means and let your money work for you.

It means nothing more nothing less and that you shouldn't fantasize about the appearances of the "haves" (not that you do personally)--you know the whole not keepin' up with the Joneses' thing.

I am by no stretch of the financial imagination rich and by no means qualified to give advice (We could use a lot of it though :teeth: )..but for goodness sakes, I didn't witness the snobbery of the OP that many here are witnessing and I don't think it was intended at all.

kfeuer
06-22-2006, 05:43 AM
ARGH!!! :crazy:

I'm not picking on the poster I quoted, but sometimes it drives me crazy that we need to qualify, qualify, qualify in order to get a point across on the DIS. I feel like I need to include a tiny-print disclaimer at the bottom of all of my posts! :teeth:

OF COURSE I didn't mean that you should just gratuitously delay having kids even though you're secure. I'm just saying that the longer a woman can delay having kids, the more chance she will have to establish herself financially, therefore mitigating the risk of having kids.



Sorry, but we can only read what you wrote! And there are people out there who share your opinion, so I wasn't willfully trying to misunderstand you. Yes, it is frustrating to have to qualify what you say but when you're communicating in a forum where people don't know you and can't read your body language sometimes it's necessary.

gina2000
06-22-2006, 06:10 AM
Work smarter, not harder. That's the key to everything. And observe as much as you can so you don't make and continue to remake the same decisions.

People don't get rich because they work hard. They work smart and figure out how to do it better for themselves and their families. That's why education is the key. Be mentally nimble and constantly vigilant for a better opportunity. Plan. And most of all, never stop dreaming.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 07:16 AM
There it goes again. Just because someone doesn't rake in a crap ton of money doesn't mean they aren't "qualified" to give advice. Is there some certification test now?

Uh, yes. It's called a bank statement. He with the most zero's has tangible, credible, empirical evidence that his/her advice produces results. :rolleyes: Who on earth would take financial advice from someone who is unqualified? Maybe advice on what NOT to do.

Would you go to a marriage counselor who has been divorced 3 times? Me either!

Plus, I'd like to know what "rich" is.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 07:23 AM
You are very wise :wave2:

Thanks! :goodvibes

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 07:25 AM
Work smarter, not harder. That's the key to everything. And observe as much as you can so you don't make and continue to remake the same decisions.

People don't get rich because they work hard. They work smart and figure out how to do it better for themselves and their families. That's why education is the key. Be mentally nimble and constantly vigilant for a better opportunity. Plan. And most of all, never stop dreaming.

Excellent. I could'nt agree more! :yay:

DiznEeyore
06-22-2006, 07:28 AM
Uh, yes. It's called a bank statement. He with the most zero's has tangible, credible, empirical evidence that his/her advice produces results. :rolleyes: Who on earth would take financial advice from someone who is unqualified? Maybe advice on what NOT to do.

Unless all those zeros came from an inheritance or a lottery win. I know people in both those instances ... no financial wisdom was involved. Purely a relative who died and dumb luck at the party store. ;)

The lotto guy was my parents' neighbor. The year after he won, he returned to the "old neighborhood" with $30K in fireworks for the 4th of July that the cops wouldn't let him set off. Gee, I'd *definitely* take financial advice from HIM!! :rotfl:

Not everything is clear-cut ... a lot of money doesn't necessarily guarantee that the person didn anything to deserve it. It wouldn't hurt to keep that in mind with the tone this thread has taken.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 07:29 AM
Unless all those zeros came from an inheritance or a lottery win. I know people in both those instances ... no financial wisdom was involved. Purely a relative who died and dumb luck at the party store. ;)

Of course. I couldnt care less about advice from Paris Hilton! :rotfl2:

mjbaby
06-22-2006, 07:32 AM
There was a discussion on another MB a while back about the difference between "broke" and "poor". Both mean, of course, living with the absence of cash (or at least extra cash) but the posters on that thread put another spin on the difference between the two words that I've been thinking about for a long time.

The idea was this: one might be "broke" and have a serious shortage of funds that might be temporary or long-term. The "broke", though, aren't truly "poor" because they have the cultural capital to understand their situation and take steps to rectify it. Cultural capital in this case is education, a social network, the ability to move within the majority cuture wherever they are living, knowledge of how to apply for student loans and other credit, knowledge of how to use banks, and basic life skills like cooking and obtaining necessary licenses and insurances. Alternately, in the absence of these things, a "broke" person has the emotional and mental ability to acquire them.

So, a "broke" person with such cultural capital has the potential, with much hard work and luck, to become less broke over time and possibly even "rich".


BUT, according to this definition, a "poor" person experiences not only an absence of immediate cash, but also a lack of cultural capital to use to obtain any even over time. A poor person doesn't know how to, say, fill out a student loan form, or even where to get one or who to ask for help. A poor person may not know his or her rights with regards to housing, education and healthcare and may spend so much time just surviving day to day. In this definition, "poor" is so intractable from generation to generation that lifeskills like cooking (even when kitchen facilities are available in sub-standard living conditions) and how to just handle the paperwork involved in moving ahead aren't passed on because they aren't there in the first place.


So that's it. And the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. A broke person may not have much more than paycheck-to-paycheck, but he or she has a job, has available credit and loans, knows how to use a bank, has access to information (internet, for example) and can handle basic functions to try and get ahead. It may never work out that way - for I know it doesn't for everyone - but the possibility is there. A broke person may not always be broke, if luck, hardword and good decisions are experienced along the way.

Working through it, of course, but this is where I am right now. And, of course, these things aren't absolute. A broke family may well not make it and have kids to grow up to be broke and/or poor. A poor family might very well manage to work up to broke and beyond. I find the concept of the importance of cultural capital very interesting.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 07:46 AM
[QUOTE=mjbaby] ...a "poor" person experiences not only an absence of immediate cash, but also a lack of cultural capital to use to obtain any even over time. A poor person doesn't know how to, say, fill out a student loan form, or even where to get one or who to ask for help. A poor person may not know his or her rights with regards to housing, education and healthcare and may spend so much time just surviving day to day.

QUOTE]

That's very interesting, but it kind of sounds like just another excuse to me. Maybe would should start a program to help those who are deficit in cultural capital...oh wait, we do: Grade school, middle school, high school, TV, radio, and newspaper advertisements for trade and technical schools, MTV public service announcements, welfare-to-work programs, charities, churches, etc.

I realize that you are studying the subject (very cool) so don't think I'm trying to flame you. I'm really glad you posted on the topic! :)

mjbaby
06-22-2006, 08:02 AM
Maybe would should start a program to help those who are deficit in cultural capital...oh wait, we do: Grade school, middle school, high school, TV, radio, and newspaper advertisements for trade and technical schools, MTV public service announcements, welfare-to-work programs, charities, churches, etc.




But that's just the thing. By this way of thinking that I posted about, the people who don't have money and still "get" these messages (by "get" I mean understand, not just encounter them) aren't "poor", they're "broke". The poor folk are those that may well encounter things like MTV PSAs but they don't make much sense because they're not "of" the cultural for which they're presented. "In" the culture, but not "of" it, you know? That's why true poverty is so intractable - the tools and messages designed to end it don't find the people who really do fall between the cracks.

Now. This means that there really are an awful lot of folk out there who might say they're "poor" but are actually "broke" through a combination of bad luck and bad choices. But this truth does not mean that there are not truly poor people out there - many, *tragically* many of them - whose background for generations have offered them NOTHING in the way of skills to figure out how to get out of it.

I think a lot of broke and formerly broke people might find themselves on an internet message board, but I think there'd be many fewer poor or formerly poor folk doing so, for this definition of poor that I'm working on would disclude the education or time required to learn to operate a computer, knowledge - let alone money - of how to acquire a computer, and the credit and personal documentation required to obtain internet access.

Oh, there are libraries you say? True. How many branches are in *truly* poor (not broke) neighborhoods? Of them, how many are as well resourced as their more affluence counterparts?

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 08:29 AM
But that's just the thing. By this way of thinking that I posted about, the people who don't have money and still "get" these messages (by "get" I mean understand, not just encounter them) aren't "poor", they're "broke". The poor folk are those that may well encounter things like MTV PSAs but they don't make much sense because they're not "of" the cultural for which they're presented. "In" the culture, but not "of" it, you know? That's why true poverty is so intractable - the tools and messages designed to end it don't find the people who really do fall between the cracks.

Now. This means that there really are an awful lot of folk out there who might say they're "poor" but are actually "broke" through a combination of bad luck and bad choices. But this truth does not mean that there are not truly poor people out there - many, *tragically* many of them - whose background for generations have offered them NOTHING in the way of skills to figure out how to get out of it.

I think a lot of broke and formerly broke people might find themselves on an internet message board, but I think there'd be many fewer poor or formerly poor folk doing so, for this definition of poor that I'm working on would disclude the education or time required to learn to operate a computer, knowledge - let alone money - of how to acquire a computer, and the credit and personal documentation required to obtain internet access.

Oh, there are libraries you say? True. How many branches are in *truly* poor (not broke) neighborhoods? Of them, how many are as well resourced as their more affluence counterparts?

Ok, I see your point. I guess my reference of "poor" is derived mostly from the folks I know in parts of Panama and Brazil. I've seen these people living in 1 room houses at the base of a mountain waiting for the next mud slide to wipe out thier family. I usually reserve my sympathy for these people, since I honestly see no way for them to better themselves. I guess I take a micro approach to "poverty' in the U.S. (adults, NOT kids) and say yes, there are poor people in terrible circumstances, however, barring mental or physical disabilities, nothing is stopping *you* from bettering yourself. You CAN go to school if you want to, you CAN get a crappy job, work hard, get promoted, and make a good life for yourself in the future if you want.

I am trying to hire a sample coordinator at work, and we can't find people to show up 5 days in a row. We've gone from paying $9 per hour to $14, and I'm still having a hard time recruiting people who dont ask me if they can have a day off DURING THE INTERVIEW.

I may be a little callused, but I come by it honest! I really do respect your opinion though, and I see a lot of truth to your hypothesis. :thumbsup2

Carrie Ellis
06-22-2006, 09:27 AM
My dad is a Dallas Homicide detective. He and my brother (Dallas Police officer too) worked the convention center after Hurricane Katrina. Many (not all) of the evacuees were taking their money that was given to them to get by and crossing the street to buy drugs and alcohol. ALOT were selling the clothes that were donated to them. Then the hiring process to clean up New Orleans came around. They were offering $10/hr to anyone who would take the offer to clean up the state and city that they were from. Next to nobody took the offer.

Then we have illegal jumping the border and risking their life to just to make money to support their family. Many would be lucky to make $10/week in Mexico.

I try my best not to judge. But I have hard time really calling people poor in the US. I think many are broke even in the higher income brackets. I am still learning myself and hopefully when I am old I will know enough to pass down to my grandchildren. Right now I am still trying to figure out rich and poor myself.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 09:37 AM
My dad is a Dallas Homicide detective. He and my brother (Dallas Police officer too) worked the convention center after Hurricane Katrina. Many (not all) of the evacuees were taking their money that was given to them to get by and crossing the street to buy drugs and alcohol. ALOT were selling the clothes that were donated to them. Then the hiring process to clean up New Orleans came around. They were offering $10/hr to anyone who would take the offer to clean up the state and city that they were from. Next to nobody took the offer.

Then we have illegal jumping the border and risking their life to just to make money to support their family. Many would be lucky to make $10/week in Mexico.

I try my best not to judge. But I have hard time really calling people poor in the US. I think many are broke even in the higher income brackets. I am still learning myself and hopefully when I am old I will know enough to pass down to my grandchildren. Right now I am still trying to figure out rich and poor myself.

I agree. Maybe this post should be titled "The difference between the rich, the poor, and those who routinely make bad decisions and pass a legacy of of ignorance and entitlement down to thier children".

Other than children who suffer from abuse or neglect from a parent, I would argue that (on a world stage) there is no true poverty in America.

Ok, bring on the flames.

popcorn::

ducklite
06-22-2006, 10:01 AM
Motivation and dedication to make a change in ones life are required to escape from either classification.

Twenty five years ago, I befriended a girl my age, similar family background, similar financial situation at the time (beyond broke, but not poor).

We had our respective sons at the same time, went back to college at the same time, etc. The difference is that she tried every get rich quick scheme that came along, and declined jobs which would have given her long term stability and benefits over jobs that paid $1 an hour more but were with unstable start up companies or jobs she knew she wouldn't like but went for the money.

I looked at a long term future and at employment that would give me room for advancement and good benefits, even if it meant a few dollars a week less in my pocket.

Fast forward twenty five years. She's living in a grossly substandard rental, working as a cashier at a gas station mini-mart, driving an eight year old car with a loan with an 18% interest rate because her credit is trashed, and in a bad marriage that she's had the opportunity to leave but hasn't. She's got no savings, no retirement, and no prospects. And she's still jumping at get rich quick schemes.

I've got a beautiful home, a brand new car, and want for nothing--well, maybe a cabana boy, but don't tell my DH :rotfl: . And Because I saved and looked at the future, I was able to take a massive pay cut for a job I enjoy going to most of the time.

The difference between us was that I was highly motivated to be successful, and to be financially secure, and was willing to work, even two jobs at a time, to get what I wanted. I worked 60-70 hours a week, learning, networking, and often doing grunt work type projects that I knew were high profile such as volunteering on the employee picnic committee on my own time.

My friend refused jobs that she felt were "under her" even though she would have learned new skills to take to other jobs, and chose to collect unemployment and even welfare instead.

We both began with equal opportunities. I chose to proactively chase my dreams, she sat back and waited for them to come to her.

Anne

PaulDavid's mom
06-22-2006, 10:17 AM
Here's a favorite quote:

"Failure means giving up what you want most for what you want at the moment."

I think about this when I want to eat high calorie foods (Do I want this cookie, or do I want to lose weight?) when I want to procrastinate (Do I want to DIS now and be up until 4 am grading papers?) when I want to spend money (Do I want these shoes, or would I rather put that into my Disney fund or my savings?) I really think that's the main point of the article- not who's better than whom, but how we all can become better off.

I think this is a very good way to look at situations. I think I will have to adopt this method. Thanks! :thumbsup2

Free4Life11
06-22-2006, 01:20 PM
I'm not getting the offense.

Call me clueless. :confused3

If someone is doing better at you at "anything" (sports, singing, piano playing, cross stitching, investing--WHATEVER!!!!)--wouldn't they be someone qualified to provide you advice.

I am not saying they aren't qualified. What I am saying is that, their being qualified DOESN'T make others un-qualified which is what was implied.

Basic financial principles are not rocket science or magical. Live below your means, save before spending, don't live on credit, etc. Just because someone doesn't have a lot of money doesn't mean they aren't following those principles.

Uh, yes. It's called a bank statement. He with the most zero's has tangible, credible, empirical evidence that his/her advice produces results. :rolleyes: Who on earth would take financial advice from someone who is unqualified? Maybe advice on what NOT to do. .

Like I said, financial advice isn't rocket science. No I don't have a lot of money in my bank account. But it's because I don't have a high paying job at the moment.

Really my point is just that, someone might not have a lot of money at the moment but that doesn't make them an idiot. Maybe they are currently working towards a degree or looking for a better job. Just don't judge people based on the size of their bank account.

Free4Life11
06-22-2006, 01:24 PM
Other than children who suffer from abuse or neglect from a parent, I would argue that (on a world stage) there is no true poverty in America.

I will agree with that to some extent in that priorities are complete out of whack in this country. I'll say more later but have to run at the moment.

Chicago526
06-22-2006, 01:32 PM
I agree. Maybe this post should be titled "The difference between the rich, the poor, and those who routinely make bad decisions and pass a legacy of of ignorance and entitlement down to thier children".

Other than children who suffer from abuse or neglect from a parent, I would argue that (on a world stage) there is no true poverty in America.

Ok, bring on the flames.

popcorn::

No flames, but you may want to read this:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0827/p02s02-usec.html

Pembroke Township, mired in poverty, looks like a 19th-century relic. Can a state initiative bail it out?

By Andrew Buchanan

A visit to this rural area 60 miles south of Chicago is a journey back in time - but it's hardly a sentimental one.
Pembroke is one of the poorest areas in the state. More than 90 percent black, it's a pocket of the country where some residents live in shacks without electricity and running water.

"Look at that," John Howard says driving down one of township's back roads, pointing to two young girls spending a steamy afternoon in front of their dilapidated home. "That was me 50 years ago."

Mr. Howard, who grew up here and now runs a day-care and vocational training center, next points to a ditch beside the road where he and other neighborhood children would seek relief in the mucky water. There is little else for children to do today in Pembroke.

The state has a plan to revitalize Pembroke Township: Gov. Rod Blagojevich visited last month to announce an initiative. But the plan involves little new money, relying instead on partnerships among state agencies, community groups, and the private sector to accomplish goals that include making government services more accessible, constructing affordable housing, improving the sewage and water systems, and cleaning up the old tires that dot the area.

"We can't allow any part of our state to be living in the 19th century," governor Blagojevich said.

The township's 2,800 people have a average annual income of $9,642, and more than half of households with children under 5 are below the poverty line.

Indeed, images here hark back sometimes 100 years: Two women till a field as a shirtless man rides by on a rusted tractor. Many live in mobile homes that appear ready to fall in on themselves. There are no gas lines in the area; those who can't afford propane burn old car batteries for heat in winter.

Many residents are skeptical of the state's plan."I've been here all my life and I've seen them come and go with promises," says James Taylor, who runs the local newspaper. "We have hope and faith that the governor's on the up-and-up. More hope than faith."

Tracey Scruggs, a spokeswoman for the Illinois Department of Human Services, says she understands such doubts. "I would certainly be skeptical, too, if you look at history," she says. "But we're there for the long haul. We don't intend to pull out until the work is done."

Kent Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield, gives Blagojevich credit for creativity. "There's no money for any kind of massive infrastructure project or building an industrial park," he says. "It certainly is an interesting experiment to say, let's bring all these state resources here and get better coordination."

The car Mr. Taylor's in pulls onto a flawless stretch of blacktop. "This is the nicest road around," he says. "The road to nowhere."

In fact, the road abruptly ends amid a huge clearing of overturned dirt and brush. It was built as an access road for construction vehicles working on a new women's prison. The last governor, George Ryan, visited with much fanfare to announce the project, saying it would be an economic boost for the area.

Blagojevich killed the project to save money during a time of fiscal crisis. On this afternoon, a couple of trucks sit by the roadside and the site is still except for a small mound of brush that is on fire.

"There were no blacks working on it, anyway," Taylor says. "That was a facade." Taylor believes it would be naive not to think race is a factor in Pembroke's isolation and poverty. He says whites who run all the area's big businesses benefit from the township's isolation because Pembroke residents must go elsewhere to buy gas, groceries, or even to do laundry.

Yet despite Pembroke's troubles, people display a stubborn pride. Many moved here decades ago to escape Chicago's congestion or racism in the South. Howard's mother, Louise, has been here since the early 1950s. She still believes Pembroke has potential. "Some -day, somehow ... somebody's going to take a good look at Pembroke and it's going to be a part of Illinois."

crisi
06-22-2006, 02:04 PM
Also, you can read "There Are No Children Here" about growing up in Cabrini Green, or visit many Native American reservations (the ones that don't have casinos). Very rural areas and inner cities still can have a lot of poverty. What America offers is more opportunity to get out of that poverty than most third world countries - but its going to take a combination of skill and luck to grab it.

georgia4now
06-22-2006, 02:26 PM
No flames, but you may want to read this:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0827/p02s02-usec.html

Pembroke Township, mired in poverty, looks like a 19th-century relic. Can a state initiative bail it out?

By Andrew Buchanan

A visit to this rural area 60 miles south of Chicago is a journey back in time - but it's hardly a sentimental one.
Pembroke is one of the poorest areas in the state. More than 90 percent black, it's a pocket of the country where some residents live in shacks without electricity and running water.

"Look at that," John Howard says driving down one of township's back roads, pointing to two young girls spending a steamy afternoon in front of their dilapidated home. "That was me 50 years ago."

Mr. Howard, who grew up here and now runs a day-care and vocational training center, next points to a ditch beside the road where he and other neighborhood children would seek relief in the mucky water. There is little else for children to do today in Pembroke.

The state has a plan to revitalize Pembroke Township: Gov. Rod Blagojevich visited last month to announce an initiative. But the plan involves little new money, relying instead on partnerships among state agencies, community groups, and the private sector to accomplish goals that include making government services more accessible, constructing affordable housing, improving the sewage and water systems, and cleaning up the old tires that dot the area.

"We can't allow any part of our state to be living in the 19th century," governor Blagojevich said.

The township's 2,800 people have a average annual income of $9,642, and more than half of households with children under 5 are below the poverty line.

Indeed, images here hark back sometimes 100 years: Two women till a field as a shirtless man rides by on a rusted tractor. Many live in mobile homes that appear ready to fall in on themselves. There are no gas lines in the area; those who can't afford propane burn old car batteries for heat in winter.

Many residents are skeptical of the state's plan."I've been here all my life and I've seen them come and go with promises," says James Taylor, who runs the local newspaper. "We have hope and faith that the governor's on the up-and-up. More hope than faith."

Tracey Scruggs, a spokeswoman for the Illinois Department of Human Services, says she understands such doubts. "I would certainly be skeptical, too, if you look at history," she says. "But we're there for the long haul. We don't intend to pull out until the work is done."

Kent Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield, gives Blagojevich credit for creativity. "There's no money for any kind of massive infrastructure project or building an industrial park," he says. "It certainly is an interesting experiment to say, let's bring all these state resources here and get better coordination."

The car Mr. Taylor's in pulls onto a flawless stretch of blacktop. "This is the nicest road around," he says. "The road to nowhere."

In fact, the road abruptly ends amid a huge clearing of overturned dirt and brush. It was built as an access road for construction vehicles working on a new women's prison. The last governor, George Ryan, visited with much fanfare to announce the project, saying it would be an economic boost for the area.

Blagojevich killed the project to save money during a time of fiscal crisis. On this afternoon, a couple of trucks sit by the roadside and the site is still except for a small mound of brush that is on fire.

"There were no blacks working on it, anyway," Taylor says. "That was a facade." Taylor believes it would be naive not to think race is a factor in Pembroke's isolation and poverty. He says whites who run all the area's big businesses benefit from the township's isolation because Pembroke residents must go elsewhere to buy gas, groceries, or even to do laundry.

Yet despite Pembroke's troubles, people display a stubborn pride. Many moved here decades ago to escape Chicago's congestion or racism in the South. Howard's mother, Louise, has been here since the early 1950s. She still believes Pembroke has potential. "Some -day, somehow ... somebody's going to take a good look at Pembroke and it's going to be a part of Illinois."

It's sad, but there is hope for anyone willing to try. I see your point though. :thumbsup2

Lisa loves Pooh
06-22-2006, 03:19 PM
That's the thing. Poverty is relative. That posted article where the average income is less than $10K doesn't carry you far here. BUt in a 3rd world country, they'd live like kings.

So Poverty does exist in the US. Even if their income is 100X that of someone in another country. It carries them no further here.

Chicago526
06-22-2006, 03:55 PM
It's sad, but there is hope for anyone willing to try. I see your point though. :thumbsup2

In this particular town, though, there isn't anything to try, there aren't any jobs! The only hope is to move away, and even that takes money.

Now of course poverty like this in the US is the exception and not the rule. I just posted the article to show that there IS true poverty here, even if it just effects a fraction of a percent of our popluation.