Note to parents of younger children

[Figaro30]

I started this thread because of a discussion that was starting about things that bothered people in the parks. Somebody had written that it bothered them that parents aren't more aware when their kids have had enough. I wanted to share a story with you that happened last February.

We were coming home from EPCOT at night after illuminations...it was about 10:00pm. The bus was packed full of people to the point that people were standing in the isle of the bus. All seats were taken and it was really impossible for people to move around inside the bus. Me and my husband were sitting in two seats and there was a woman behind me sitting with her husband. Meanwhile while the bus was loading more full of people a woman with a small child, probably 3-4 years old, came onto the bus and stood between our row and the woman behind us. It was heartbreaking, but cute to see the little boy half passed out, he was soooooooo exhausted. Me and the woman behind me felt sorry for him. You could hear us say stuff like "ohhhh look at the little one" "he's so tired" etc. Things like that. Well after the 20 minute bus ride we were just pulling up to the Wilderness Lodge when the mother of this boy started yelling at the woman behind me. "You've got some nerve.....you could have gotten up to give my son your seat instead of laughing at him the entire way."

I turned around and told that woman we were not laughing AT HIM. The woman started yelling at me saying how horrible we were that we didn't give up our seat. I then told her how physically impossible it would have been to move around because the bus was so crowded. The woman behind me then proceeded to try to get up...which was very difficult and told the woman with the child to take the seat. She wasn't going to be accused of being selfish to a little boy. The woman with the boy was still nasty and said "it's a little too damn late now".

Anyway, we unloaded the bus and I comforted the woman who was sitting behind me telling her there was nothing she could have done anyway. It was that woman's problem not ours. I think she realized that after she got herself back together again. She just felt bad that the bus wasn't empty enough that she could have easily gotten up and given the boy her seat. I think any person who could have physically moved would have to given the child their seat. But really it was impossible for her to do this.

My point being....

TO ALL PARENTS: it's not anybody elses job to watch your kids or take care of your kids. To that parent I say "if your child is THAT tired that he can't stand up then you should have brought him home a long long long time ago". I blame the parent on that one and nobody else. Parents need to monitor their own children and not expect total strangers to accommodate their child's needs. This infuriated me that the woman behind me had her night ruined because of a selfish parent. (Yes I call her selfish because she stayed for her own needs, not her childs)

Anyway, It didn't ruin my night...As a matter of fact I had completely forgotten about it until today. ;)

[Spennysmom]

It just sounds like that person was a jerk. I'm sure that none of these fine parents here at the Dis would act like that. I know I never would. I might keep my son out late for "selfish" reasons at WDW, but (geesh) I don't get out of the house much!

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[mormol]

Hmmm, I get a bit offended when I see posts with "lectures" to all parents and was going to avoid this but to play devil's advocate and also just to point out some things to those who have not walked in that mother's moccassins so to speak....
We should ALL try to live civily in our society, parents and NON-PARENTS alike. It was inexcusable for that mother to lash out when it was obvious you would have let her small child have the seat if it had been possible.
I always try and give my seat to all moms with toddlers/babies/tired young children, to those of a more advanced age, pregnant women and those obviously handicapped in some way. These just are common courtesy, good manners that were instilled in me from the get go. I find it particularly important to let my 5.5 year old see me do these things as that is more effective I feel for children then lectures.
You really don't know what that mother put up with that day, how many people pushed her son to get ahead in a line, for example, whether she or her son were sick, something happened that they couldn't get back earlier, etc. It happens quite a lot to those of us with young children.
You don't know if she got to the park late, returned to the park after a nap, stayed in the park at the insistance of her child, etc. Not to condone her remarks but sometimes things do get overwhelming. I am sure she was not blaming you for her son's tiredness. But I am assuming that you would have given up your seat for a mother and sleepy child if you could have and would not have blamed the mother if it had been, for example, mid afternoon instead.

[isles_nyi]

The great (sometimes not-so-great) thing about WDW is the diversity of the people at the parks. If you go there enough times, eventually you'll get to see everything! And even though it is Disney, remember:

Nice people will still be nice. Jerks will still be jerks.

I always think that Disney has the same effect on people as alcohol: it magnifies your true personality. If your a happy person, you'll be an even happier one. If you easily aggrevated, whoa! You'll find plenty to get aggrevated about here! And so it goes...

I go to WDW to have fun, and I do! Anyone in a bad mood...get over it! You're on vacation!!!

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[mormol]

good post! good outlook too!
andrea

[Figaro30]

I definitely always give up my seat to elderly, pregnant, children or disabled people. I even give up my seat if I don't mind standing to just anybody! In Disney I'm trying to get away from reality and therefore find it very difficult to get angry over things. This is my vacation and it takes a LOT to get me angry.

I would however still blame the parent for lashing out at a complete stranger over their own family aggravations. I don't care if the child was sick, if they got to the park late, or if the child insisted they stay for the show. The parent has to deal with any complications that may arise from any situation regardless of what time of day it is. That the the role of being a "parent". Because of these potential problems I find not ONE worthy of having that parent lash out on a complete stranger that did nothing wrong to begin with. :cool:

[hfdoyle]

Whenever my son is exhausted and we are on some form of public transportation, I will ASK someone to give up their seat for him. People are not mind readers. If she had asked, then a courteous exchange could have taken place (I would but I can't move, the bus is too crowded etc.). Sometimes you cannot simply rely on the kindness of others, you have to ask for what you need.... IMHO anyway!

[Figaro30]

I totally agree with you. If she would have asked maybe everybody could have rearranged themselves to allow for the switch. I know I would have tried and I'm sure the other woman behind me would have tried also.

[Jenn]

Ok - the woman was very rude.

But, if I saw a woman get on a bus carrying a sleeping child, my husband or I would give up a seat for her. Period. And, if I got on carrying my sleeping daughter, I would hope someone would be as nice and do the same for me.

I would not give up my seat just because it was a woman (unless elderly). But the fact that she was holding her sleeping toddler (gotta weigh 30 lbs) would be enough prompting to warrant someone letting her sit. Just my opinion.

Jenn

[Figaro30]

We would have gotten up but it was physically impossible to. The bus had a least 30 people just standing in the isle. It was packed.

[jfranklyn]

I think this is an interesting topic. I have a toddler, and faced some of the same things last year on our trip. But what we did was this: If we were getting on a bus that we suspected was full (no seats) we would ask the driver before we got on. If the seats were gone, we waited and were the first ones on the next bus. I'd rather sit on the sidewalk with my exhausted child and wait another 10 minutes than stand in a situation like that.

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[Figaro30]

PS Jenn...she wasn't carrying her son. The son walked on by himself and mid-way through the bus ride he was falling asleep standing up. I still think the mother had him out way tooo late!!!!

[Figaro30]

very good suggestion...JFRANKLYN

[maddiezoots]

I completely understand that it was impossible for you all to move to let them sit. AND, it was very rude for her to lash out at you and the people behind you. BUT this is my problem. I have a toddler. When we go to the parks, she is moving, having fun, laughing, and enjoying herself till the minute we leave. She doesn't act tired, and in fact, she wants to stay. My point is this. You don't know how the child was acting before they left. Many times kids zonk out on the way home, because they've been having so much fun. This happens all the time with our daughter. Parents don't always bring their toddlers to Disney so they can bring them home to be in bed on time. When we go again this year, we will not be in our rooms at 8pm, dd's normal bedtime. If she wants to stay, we will. I just don't think you should generalize saying her child was out too late, and that she was playing on her needs not her childs. Maybe he wanted to stay! And because they were at Disney, she said ok.

[jennybobenny]

Figaro writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> TO ALL PARENTS: it's not anybody elses job to watch your kids or take care of your kids. To that parent I say "if your child is THAT tired that he can't stand up then you should have brought him home a long long long time ago". I blame the parent on that one and nobody else. Parents need to monitor their own children and not expect total strangers to accommodate their child's needs. This infuriated me that the woman behind me had her night ruined because of a selfish parent. (Yes I call her selfish because she stayed for her own needs, not her childs). [/quote]

I respectfully disagree with you about the mother being selfish for keeping her son out late. We've been to WDW several times over the past few years and have consistently arranged our daily schedule around our children. We <u>always</u> take afternoon breaks to rest, relax, take a nap or go for a quick swim. Even so, on a few occasions my children have become extrememly tired after a long day and have fallen asleep either in their stroller or in our arms on the busride home. In no way would I consider myself selfish for keeping them out what you may consider to be 'too late'.

I agree she shouldn't have lashed out like she did but that makes her rude, not selfish. Apparently because she was rude you feel you can turn around and judge her as a parent. I wouldn't be at all surprised if only 10 minutes earlier that same little boy was wide awake and having a great time.

Also, since I've already jumped into the frying pan I might as well head for the fire. In all our trips to WDW we've only rented a car once so you can imagine how many crowded buses I've been on. I can't imagine how crowded that bus must have been for it to be physically impossible for you to give up your seat. If this 'rude, selfish' mother had been a very frail 80 year old woman I'm willing to bet you would have managed the switch.


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[Figaro30]

So do the last two entries make it a point to yell and scream at total strangers on a bus because your child is too tired????

If so...I hope I'm not on your bus.

I guess I just don't get it then....or should I say me and the other 90 PEOPLE on that bus that thought that woman was a total psycho.

[Desnik]

First a question: Figaro30, do you have any children? I don't think anyone can disagree on the fact that that woman had no right to yell at the woman sitting behind you or you. I too have been on a Disney bus and do know that they will fill up the bus until it is impossible to move your leg let alone stand up to make a switch. Maybe the mother used bad judgement and should have waited another 10min. for a bus with seats, we can speculate all we want but no one knows what that womans day was like and why she chose to deal with that situation the way she did. To judge her as a parent and say she should not have her child out so late is really no ones business.

[bfeller]

Wow, it has to be time to calm this post down. It is my interpretation of the original post to remind parents of young children to be aware that keeping them up past their normal bedtime may not be in the best interest of the child, parent, and the people around them. When a child gets tired they either go to sleep or become very cranky. It sounds as if the mother was tired also, but that doesn't give her the right to lash out at others. I understood that the mother chose to board the crowded bus that had no seats available with her child and that they both walked on. If she really wanted a seat on the bus she could have waited for another. (obviously she didn't know the child was going to fall asleep) It was during the ride that the child fell asleep. It was not the responsibility of others to accomodate her sleeping child, especially if the bus was moving and getting up and moving around may have been a bad safety decision. I have always heard that once a bus or car was moving that it was unsafe for anyone to get up and move around. The mother was out of line by yelling at anyone. She obviously misunderstood the comments that were being said. Maybe the mother was too tired to really listen.

The bottom line is I think everyone agrees that it is good manners to give up a seat for the elderly, physically challenged, pregnant ladies, and mothers with babies/sleeping toddlers in arms(I hope I didn't leave anyone out, accept my apology if I have). But this is a courtesy not a right.

[*Belle*]

I have to say I have seen this discussion on more than one occasion and have never replied.I have to say I feel so sorry for the woman who was scolded for not giving up her seat. I can't imagine speaking to someone like that. I know my 3 yr old will want to be held on Disney transportation, but I don't expect another tired guest to have to give up their seat for me, and yes i have turned them down and thanked them for the offer (sometimes I except). I always try to plan my transportation so I won't be put in the position to have to stand and hold him, even if it means waiting for the next bus, boat or monorail.I think part of the problem is that Disney simply packs too many people into the aisles of all their transportation, it just is not safe. I think that alone puts people on edge. Just my 2 cents. ;)

[jennybobenny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So do the last two entries make it a point to yell and scream at total strangers on a bus because your child is too tired???? [/quote]

Figaro, I have no idea where you got that idea. If you go back and re-read my post you'll see that I most certainly did agree with you that the woman was out of line. I simply disagree that she was selfish as well. I'm not disputing anything that happened that night, and if I were on that bus I'm sure I would have agreed with you and the other 90 people.

I had to sit back and ask myself how I even got involved in this thread. Well, I read your post because the subject line reads "to parents of younger children" (of which I'm one). So in response to your post I'd just like to point out that simply because a child falls asleep on the busride home doesn't mean the parents kept him at the park 'for their own selfish needs.'

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[SandraC]

glad we are renting a car

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[ceopa]

We went to WDW last year at Spring Break with three kids under 5. We stayed at the All-Stars, and invariably, they packed the buses to capacity. We also made a point of not getting on a bus without seating room. That said, we were on buses (even in the mid-afternoon) w/ 2 of 3 of our children sleeping, two lightweight umbrella strollers, and the bus packed so full that the person in front of you would have to breath out for the person behind them to breath in (this is a quote from a Disney bus driver -as he directed everyone to squeeze onto the bus!). My husband give up his seat and get up holding a sleeping toddler and a stroller for any elderly person, woman or child. He also has directed other young healthy people to give up their seats. It is the right thing to do, whether you are at Disney or not.

Aside from that, Disney should have an adequate number of buses that overcrowding (children and infirm folks standing in the aisle is unsafe - would you let a child stand in the aisle on a school bus?) does not occur, and is certainly not encouraged by bus drivers. My husband spoke to the manager of the hotel about this, and they said this certainly should not occur. Well it did our entire trip.

As for the warning to parents, I try not to judge other people's decisions, especially in the very limited context you describe. That child may have taken a 4 hr nap in the afternoon - utimately the parent is responsible for the child and knows that child best. All you can control is your own behavior. Obviously, you felt you did the right thing. I believe most parents try to do the right thing for their kids too.

[LisaR]

Our first trip with our daughter was five years ago when she was a year old. We did not rent a car. The busses were jam packed. The asiles were so full of people standing that at the first stop, people had to get off the bus to let other people off and then get back on again. For this reason, we rent a car and will not use Disney bus transportation. I do not think it is safe for anyone to stand in a moving vehicle and especially not a child. Someday, Disney will have to answer to this in a court of law when some child gets seriously hurt. We'll stick to our rental car and bring a booster seat for our 6 year old and a car seat for our 3 year old.

[gingajane]

Personally, I would never presume that it was anyone's reponsibility to move for me or my children. Everyone has long exhausting, fun-packed days at Disney. You wait in line for the bus, you get a seat or you don't. If you don't like standing, wait for the next. Consideration for those in need is nice and pleasant when you are the recipient...but to think it is your right? I am not sure about that. I might wish to the dear God above that some kind soul would give me a seat, but I wouldn't get all bent and righteous if it wasn't offered either. Just thought I'd add my two cents!! MJ

[LvsTnk]

Believe me when I tell you that there have been people who would not give up a seat for my handicapped child(his special stroller folds up). Sometimes you don't know there are not any seats until it is too late. On the other hand, I had one Gentleman get off the bus to help me with him! So I have to agree we don't know what motivates people to act the way they do. I did learn early on(teen years)to keep my mouth shut and not talk about people who are within ear shot of my voice.

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[robinb]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyway, It didn't ruin my night...As a matter of fact I had completely forgotten about it until today.[/quote]

Given the number of replies you have, maybe it should have remained forgotten. I have not read the rest of the replies to your post because I do
not want what other people say color how I feel now.

I have a small daughter and have ridden the busses with her at WDW, often without my husband. Many people have bent over backwards to
help me when they see me get on the bus holding her in one arm and my stroller in the other. I have welcomed all help in the sprit it was given. In return, I have been sensitive to other parents who need help either with a
stroller, or a seat on the bus, or just a friendly smile.

If I were in the same situation as you were, I would have made every attempt to offer the woman with the child a seat. If I could not move, as
you said, I would have at least told the woman with the child that I was sorry that I couldn't give her my seat. IMO, it is not unreasonable for someone with a sleeping child to expect an able bodied person to give up a seat on a bus. I'm sure that she was snippy because she was tossed around and tired herself. I might have done much the same in the same situation. Of course, I'm known to be snippy ;).


-- Robin

[2badcats]

It sure is nice when someone offers their seat, but I don't expect it as a right. Who knows what aches and pains those folks have after a full day of chasing Mickey? And carrying sleepy, cranky kids is a WDW rite of passage (all my kids were just HUGE babies).

Having been there, done that, I always get up for elderly or moms with babies, but I don't want or need anyone to tell me to get up. And I certainly don't expect any men to give up their seats for me just because I'm a woman. It's really not a disability!

Meanwhile, tell Disney, Inc. to buy a few more buses

[Kallison]

Obviously she was not from Manahattan! I remember going to work with a cast on my ankle and having people grab taxi cabs from me in the pouring down rain. I too would try to offer my seat, but as someone posted previously it is not your god given right. There were times that the buses are just too packed to move around. If you really want that seat, then wait for the next bus. We saw many families with young kids doing just that. Personally we would rather get back to our room, if that meant standing, then that is what we do.

[sha_lyn]

Show me any child who doen't fall alseep in a moving vehicle (except my DD when she was an infant, she would scream the whole time). My DS is almost 12 and he can get up from 11 hours sleep get in the car and be asleep before we are 1 mile from the house. The boy was just doing what children naturally do. To blame the mother for kepping him out too late with out having any idae how long thay had been in the park, if he napped etc ir ridiculous.

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[ceopa]

I do not believe being a woman is a disability. If my husband offered you (as a women)his seat, I would hope you would just say "no" and not be offended.

I hope that all those who are not satisfied with Disney's bus transportation express their concerns to resort management as we did. This is the only way to improve the conditions and avoid the type of situation that sparked this debate. This is certainly the most fruitful outcome of this discussion...

[CUNDIZNE]

Several kids are always asleep on the bus at the end of the day - including mine- it's really nobody else's business if they are exhausted or not-you shouldn't feel sorry for them-they have had a fun filled day. As for that lady, she was rude but you probably could have avoided the whole incident by minding your own business.

[Figaro30]

Okay let me just say one more thing and then i'm ending this conversation and move on to a lighter subject.

First off, I have a 15 year old son. So I know what it is all about!!!

Second of all people keep saying it was not my business. THAT WOMAN MADE IT MY BUSINESS when she started yelling at me!!! If you don't want me involved....DON'T GET ME INVOLVED!!!

Lastly, my point to this was that people should just monitor their children more and expect that if they are to stay out later that their children might be sleepy and cranky along with themselves. And if you are going to run around all day then expect a most probable negative outcome and don't blame other people when it arises. Regardless of the reasons that this incident occurred it was of no right of the woman to start yelling at INNOCENT strangers. And yes, she should have waited for another bus that was emptier. Maybe I was wrong to generalize all parents and all situations and I apologize for that part. I shouldn't have done that. I got caught up in the moment. But for everything else I won't be apologizing for. I did nothing wrong.

Well I won't be responding to this post anymore because this post seems to have aggravated me 100x more than the original situation. So on that note, I think I'll keep to chatting about
POC. ;)

[casmanuel]

It sounds like the woman thought you were making fun of her child. It really bothers me when people laugh at my children, and maybe your comments hurt her feelings. It's amazing how you can defuse a situation by saying, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." As for the lecture, both of my kids can go from full speed to sound asleep in 30 seconds flat. They seem fine one second and the next thing you know they are asleep in their food, regardless of the time of day. It's part of being on vacation.

[isles_nyi]

Don't feel aggrevated or upset by the way this thread turned out. I found it informative and interesting and I think other people have too. All that you did was push a hot button. Whenever people are this passionate over a topic you know you've hit on a subject worth talking about.

It was a good exchange. Keep it up. ;)

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[Figaro30]

Thanks fellow New Yorker. I've always enjoyed reading your comments on this thread and other threads as well.
(as you can see I couldn't stay away... I've answered this yet again.) I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.

[kaitlynangel]

I have a toddler, but that's not the point, the woman was wrong for taking her frustration out on you or anyone else. I think we know in our hearts what the right thing is to do but we supress it because we've been lulled into passiveness by our lack of thinking about anyone but ourselves.I have seen children run and fall down in front of me and I help them up if their mother is a few steps from the scene and I am closer. I have assisted another person open the door if they have heavy packages (regardless of sex or age.) We are all resposible for each other. We are humans, if we see someone in need, we help them. We don't do it for some reward, we do it because we have to share this world, why not help each other out. Whether the child was exhusted and falling down (for what ever the reason he is in the condition he's in does not matter)or a elderly person or hanicapped, we should do what's right, What's right to you might be differnet to what's right to me, that is true. But I can only hope someone goes out of their why for you, even if it puts them in a akward or impossible situation. We got on a Disney bus with our 20 month old and we had so much stuff (i.e. stroller diaper bag, my big pocketbook) that the only way we could sit on the bus was if my husband stood and I had my daughter on my lap, a young boy of 9 or so was told by his mother to help me with hold ing the diaper bag, so I gave it to him on his mothers request and he held it until we got off. What a mother to teach her child to help another person, regardless that he was the child and I was the adult. I think she has the same idea of what right is, that I have. Good luck to all those you don't believe that we are in this thing we call a "life" toghether and we are not responsible for making this place a little nicer to be in. Maybe the woman got s frustrated with people not caring about each other she took it out on you, this probably wasn't the first incident that she encounter with people turning their heads, maybe we sometimes don't notice that we are given an oppertunity to help out right at the moment when we could be of some help. I think your post will now help alot of others because you reported what that frustrated woman did to you. In the end i don't think she knows how loud her message really has become. Thanks for your story, maybe I'll have another plesant experience like I did on that disney bus or anywhere, because of this.

[Sharmaine]

Whose had the worst behaviour here? Obviously, the ladies who wouldn't give up their seats, especially since they were rude enough to comment on the situation! The ladies SHOULD have given up a seat. The lady with the child SHOULD NOT have had to ask.

I wish I was there, seated, but holding my own sleeping child. I WOULD have struggled to get up, to give that other lady the seat, and made sure those rude ladies saw me and were fully aware of this. I've done this kind of thing before in the midst of other rude passengers. Its very satisfying. One time I was 9 months pregnant, occupying a "priority seating" spot on a big city, crowded bus. A very elderly woman boarded, and one of my able seat mates gave up a seat. But a middle aged blind man with a limp also boarded. The other priority seating passengers (there were about 6 others besides my very pregnant self and the elderly lady) ignored the man - pretending they didn't notice his disability. Very unlikey that more than one or two of the seated were in anyway deserving of priority seating. So I got up to give the man MY seat. I enjoyed watching the pink glows appear on the faces as they tried to now ignore me. I smiled at them and made eye contact so they couldn't. Now in the situation under debate here, I think I might have struck up a converstation with the lady who took my seat "...those poor ladies who wanted to get up, but couldn't...I wonder what was wrong with them...arthritis, cancer...who knew...but wasn't it nice that they were able to get to Disney at all...and that they looked so happy in spite of their problems...I only hoped I would bear up so well under ill health conditions..."

There is no CAN'T here. That's a ridiculous excuse. I've been a public transit customer in big cities since I was 4. Thats 34 years of it. I've been on incredibly croweded vehicles where people could not only not move, but could hardly breath. Never ever ever ever ever seen a situation where a passenger physically could not give up a seat. Sure, it could be inconvenient - but not as inconvenient as it is for some lady to try and balance herself while underway on some pubic transport vehicle, while holding a sleeping child!

Most big city transit systems have rules about this. Special seats are designated for needy passengers. Those who have one and don't need it have to give it up if a needy passenger shows up. If Disney Transpo doesn't have this they should.
A parent carrying a sleeping child would qualify on any system - certainly even more so in a place like Disney.

I seriously doubt Disney would be there if it weren't for families with children - so they should be accomodated. People who can't tolerate tired cranky kids should stay away from Disney - or at least stay off the public transit system and other places where these families might be late at night. Let the intolerants go to one of those places where kids are barred after 7 pm. Public transport seats go to those who need them most, and ladies, parents carrying sleeping children need them more than your healthy selves with two hand free to hold on!

I'll be there in May for the first time...though not really thrilled to read I can expect to find ruder patrons on a bus at Disney, than I can on a crowded big city transit system. Is this what all this "Disney Magic" is about

[Figaro30]

I guess nobody can read.....

she wasn't holding the sleeping child he was standing.

[kaitlynangel]

Once again the point is being missed, whether the child was sleeping on the mother or sleeping on the floor, which at this point it seems as if nobody would give a heck if he or anyone for that matter was. The point is caring for your fellow human being, what part of this is everyone not understanding. Keep harping on why the child was tired, and you miss the human side to the story. Does the person deserving of help have to justify their condition to you before you deem them worthy. Maybe that disabled person who got on the bus, got hurt as a result of a DWI accident they caused, or maybe the blind man lost his sight in a bar fight that he caused. The point isn't how they got into the physical situation they are in but that they are in need of something you can do with out. the biggest issue in the orginal post was that the parents kept the kid up to long and he was nearly falling down from exhustion but it's not your responsiblilty to help, it's the parents responsibility. Yeah maybe they should have asked someone if they could have your seat. Since nobody thought to ask, that was her only fault. I at 32 have been falling down exhausted after a day at work and have had people offer me a seat and I am sure if somebody offered one to you then you can see how there is good in people. What is so shocking to me is how we defend our inability to raise to the occasion (old saying but applies here perfectly) and be bigger than the situation and help a human in need. If the issue is that the parents did something wrong then I can conceed that they had yelled, wrong approach but understandable since a child doesn't have a voice in this society and needs ADULTS to show them how to respect others.

[robinb]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The point isn't how they got into the physical situation they are in but that they are in need of something you can do with out. [/quote]

Brava!


-- Robin

[jdads2]

My kids are, out too late, in too early, too hungry, too full, have ants in their pants, are catatonic, little angels or little devils. Doesn't make any difference. They are my kids, my responsibility. Offer us your seat, an apple, use of a toy...THANK YOU that really helps. Don't offer it to us...OK. If you think that we have our kids out too late...its WDW, I can live with a little crankiness...please excuse us. I apologize if we disturb you. Chances are, if the kids are out too late so are mom and dad. I know my kids, if I have them out late, especially someplace that is as draining as WDW, I don't care what they look like 2 minutes before we head out, as soon as it's time to leave I know they are going to be, at BEST, tired on the way home(back to the hotel).

For those parents who don't like to be told how to be better parents or how to handle your kids, I don't blame you. I don't like being told how to raise my kids. But, I don't expect others to help us do it either. KInd of can't have your cake and eat it too.

Just my 2 cents...maybe a quarters worth,
Dave

[Figaro30]

gotta add one more thing....

People keep saying that if I don't want cranky kids to go somewhere else then.

I don't mind the cranky kids, I love kids. It was the cranky mom that flipped my lid.

[kaitlynangel]

just wanted to remind everyone how we rely on everyone in society to assist us with our kids. We rely on Teachers, School bus Drivers, crossing guards, school lunch ladies, religion teachers, babysitters, grandparents, Gymboree programs and daycare facilities. We rely on our police and firemen to keep them safe.We rely on their doctors to make them better. Some of you may get technical with me and say "they don't raise my kids" so, i will leave it as WE rely on their help everyday. If we didn't have people who believed that we all as a society have a responsiblilty to each other and our children, we wouldn't have any of those people I mentioned above to Rely on. Thank goodness there are people who care for your kids, whether you recongize it or not. Of course the ultimate responsiblity for your children falls upon you. Funny how we never hear a child say they want to be a mommy or a daddy when they grow up. I believe it's because Children recongize that helping others is a cool thing, therefore they always say they want to be a Firemen, doctor or a Teacher. When do we lose that sense of helping others? Thank goodness some of us which this society relies on never did.

[neenercan]

First off I think that is WDW responsibility to make sure that a bus is not overfilled like that. It is a saftey issue. A worker should be responsible for seeing that everyone has a seat on a bus!!! It really ticks me off that WDW charges 50.00 a day per person than does something like this.

[Figaro30]

I never really thought about it before now...but you are absolutely correct. I'm so used to the bus situation that I never thought twice about it. That's just always been the way it is.

It's very dangerous for children and everybody else to be standing in a packed bus. Next time we go I will be sure to put in a complaint and hopefully everybody else that has read this will do the same.

[jdads2]

You are correct. I did not stress my point. We do rely on a lot of people to help raise our kids. I beleive that society as a whole would be a better place if we all took an interest in (all)our children. That is a bit of a utopian wish. For most of those you mentioned, it is there job to be relied upon....please don't assume that I do not recognize that they are essential for the proper growth of my child. However, that being said, we all rely upon each other. We rely on the farmer who relies on the trucker who reliesthe grocer who relies on us....

My point should have been confined to the original example. If you have tired kids that are cranky, don't blame anyone else. I know my kids, as do most parents. If I keep them out late they are going to be tired and probably cranky. I know that I should be prepared for the consequences.

....wham! bang!...fell off my soap box

Dave

[Fleur]

I think the woman's fit probably could have been avoided if people had just minded their own business. As it is, it seems that she heard people talking about her child falling asleep standing up on a bus. So, they not only saw him, they thought it was cute! I could excuse people for not noticing, but maybe not for enjoying watching my child in a dangerous situation. (Which, we seem to agree, applies to small kids standing in moving vehicles.)...Might bring out the mama bear in me, too.

[Figaro30]

call me evil then

[BuckeyeBelle]

Since when is it a surprise that children and adults alike wear out all of a sudden when they leave the park? The fun and adreanaline stops, and the body stops too. Leaving the park any sooner probably wouldn't prevent the bus ride blues.

Sounds like the child was not the only one who was tired and having a hard time. So was the mom, and the people who were ostensibly giggling about it but couldn't figure out how to give up their seats. Nobody showed self control and good manners. The whole situation could have been avoided if just ONE of those people had kept their comments to themselves. Perhaps the adults who were laughing weren't as rude as the snippy mom, but they were rude nonetheless. That child was not an attraction to be giggled over within earshot of his mom.

This is definitely a situation that should have remained forgotten. Much less expanded to become a lecture to "all parents of young children." Maybe it should be a lesson to *all* tired bus riders (not just parents) to mind their manners. JMHO

[gussmom]

ok I have been reading this for the past couple of days and this is just killing me!!!

1) the women was wrong to yell!! Not setting a good example for her child and not very adult

2) If you or anyone else dares to tell me how to raise my child I will get defensive.

3) its Disney World for petes sake. Kids will be out later than usual. Do you think at home we let them stay up till they fall asleep standing??? Please use some common sense!!!

Judie

[ilisa]

Give me a break about it being too crowded to offer someone a seat. Where there is a will, there is a way. I travel on public transportation every day and have been on the metro at times where the crowds would make the Disney buses spacious by comparison. But, I and other people still have managed to give up our seats when the situation arose. Teamwork and tolerance, people.

[isles_nyi]

All of this could be solved if Disney could just make Transporters like they have on Star Trek™ and just beam guest directly to their rooms.

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[dmslush]

I, too, have read this post a dozen times debating on if I REALLY wanted to post. If I keep my daughter out in the park too late, that is MY fault. If she is falling asleep on her feet, it is MY fault. If I want her to be able to sit, I will wait until the next bus. I would NEVER expect someone to give my daughter their seat. I also would NEVER yell at a stranger for not offering a seat. I would rather see a tired granny be given a seat as my healthy young daughter.

[Figaro30]

Somebody said earlier that If it was an older fragile woman that anybody would have jumped to give up the seat. I agree because as soon as she was loading on the bus somebody would have noticed immediately and offered the seat to her and it would have been possible to quickly switch. But in this case it was 10 minutes into the bus ride and the lights were out on the bus and it was fully loaded and moving. In order to arrange for a switch the bus would have needed to stop. People would have had to unload and seating could then be changed. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY!!!!! I'm not a bad person and neither is that other woman behind me.

I was talking to my husband about this and he reminded me he was on the outside seat almost next to the woman but blocked by another man which was that woman's husband (which by the way her husband stayed totally out of the confrontation because I guess has to live with the crazy lunatic forever). He also reminded me that he had no idea that the woman was even there until the last minute of the trip when she started yelling because the lights were out. He was like "what is going on????" He didn't even realize the situation. I did notice however because I was leaning up against the window facing the isle. So I could see behind my shoulder that poor little boy falling asleep. Which by the way the father could have helped her also.

PS neither me or the other woman sitting behind me were LAUGHING at the little boy or making fun of him. What kind of a person do you think I am??? I have a cousin who is mentally retarded, I have a son, I donate to organizations and I always give up my seat when possible. I guess i'm just one of those people who think it is really adorable to see a tired little boy, much like a tired sleeping kitten or puppy. But that's right....none of you were there!

[mormol]

to paraphrase shakespear...me thinks you protest a bit too much!

[jdads2]

You touched(ever so gently I thought) a nerve with some. I wouldn't take the comments here personally.

That is part of the downside to these forums.

Just as we do not know you others don't know me or I them. We only get a glimpse of each other through these tiny windows that we post.

I suppose that the real lesson from this disussion is gaining more tolerence.

Dave

[Figaro30]

Thanks Dave....

I give up. You all win! <IMG WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="15" SRC="/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif" alt="razz">

[bfeller]

Figaro, I also feel that you were unfairly judged. As I posted earlier. The woman was out of line. She was rude. I think many people including myself make small talk on the buses with other people. I didn't feel that anything that you said was out of line. I always feel that half the fun of Disney is meeting others. Also, as far as the seat thing goes. A courtesy that is extended when it is possible remains a courtesy and not a right. Granted, Disney does run those buses crowded and I for one don't feel that anyone should be moving around once the bus is in motion. This is dangerous. I know that the buses can be packed like sardines and those who posted the opinion that no matter what you could have offered your seat have not experienced Disney during the crowded times. Also, they seemed to miss the point that the lady and her son walked on the bus knowing that there were no seats available. It is a shame that some people write before reading and understanding the post but that is life and what makes it interesting. Anyway, I hope this thread will be laid to rest soon. I don't think you were a bad girl.

[Tinkerbelle'sMOM]

Wow..an interesting thread...makes me really glad we always rent a car when we go! ;)

[Spinning]

I have been reading this tread for awhile now I guess what buggs me the most is one your title of the tread and this quote:
_______________________________________________
TO ALL PARENTS: it's not anybody elses job to watch your kids or take care of your kids. To that parent I say "if your child is THAT tired that he can't stand up then you should have brought him home a long long long time ago".
______________________________________________
I have a DD who has always been the energizer bunny but when she crashed she was out! Didn't matter where or when. Car rides and bus rids after a day in the park or even a morning in the park and coming back to our room for lunch would put her out. So if you saw my DD at 9:45 watching the fireworks you would have seen a smiling bouncing girl! Been this way since birth! But once on the bus...boom different story! I never expect anyone to give up a seat for us, I try if possible to give up my seat. But truthfuly there has been times where I don't pay attention and like you may not have realized someone else would be better seated. Plus the mom may not have know her son would fall asleep standing.
But that is hind sight. I just think some of your wording is what offended people. Very judgemental! Maybe I am being that now so I am sorry if I did. But parents are not wrong or bad to keep there children out past their bed times. I had people make comments to us about having out DD out till 11 PM when she was 2 but that was her personality! She still sleeps very little, DD is now 5 she goes to be around 8:30 and is up by 6! Even if she goes to bed at 10 still up by 6!

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[Joeblack]

Figaro30. DOn't feel aggravated. I am with you. The woman was a psycho. And she was lucky she didn't scream at me...I am not really into "giving the other cheek". I do give up my seat for someone who obviously needs it more than I do, and I mean OBVIOUSLY...a handicapped, a pregnant or an elderly person. Other than that, I probaby won't, and no one should feel entitled to have a guaranteed seat because that is not the way it is. I understand the lady might have expected you or anybody else for the matter to give up his/her seat for her tired child, but screaming at you was inexcusable and I find it admirable that the lady gave her seat up or that you actually tried to calm her down. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR CALM AND PASSIVITY. The least you can do is come to the DIS and get it off your chest and receive some support. You have mine.

[Planogirl]

What bothers me the most about this is seeing small kids trying desperately to hang on while the bus is in motion. Waiting for the next bus isn't always so simple because it can be hard to tell that the current bus is full until you're already on it. Then with the crowd, it can be hard to get off.

There's really nothing for a little kid to hang onto and I blame Disney for those conditions. This is just an accident waiting to happen IMO. :mad:

That lady was rude but had probably had "one of those days". That doesn't excuse her behavior but hopefully we can assume that it's just an aberration.

wishin' on a star in Texas...

[georgiapeach60]

Wow! And I thought the debate boards were rough. I think that it is pretty well covered that the lady was rude to yell at you. It was also incorrect for her to assume that the world owes her child a seat. It is nice when someone can do that but it is certainly not an obligation. As has been noted many times on the DIS you cannot just look at someone and gauge their health status. For all that lady knew the same people she was glaring at could have had any number of disabilities that made it more important for them to sit than her sleepy child. I too have taken kids to things and they have stayed out late and then been zonked on the ride home. I don't think that is a problem but neither do I expect others to cater to me. I have been reading a really good book in which the author states, "Takes the shoulds out of your life and you will be much happier." If we quit saying so and so should have done this or that and instead say It would be nice if... Then it makes it easier not to get so offended by others. What we feel about things is caused by what we think about things. Change the thought and you change the feeling. ;)

[HoneyPooh]

These particular threads always degenerate to the same exact point. I've only ever replied to one once before and will reply the same way now. My husband has a knee injury. He looks to be a fine and healthy 30 something male. He HAS to sit on a bus. I am a diabetic. I look perfectly healthy but after being on my feet for any length of time begin to feel very ill and swell horribly. We have also received MANY MANY horrible looks and comments from the elderly, handicaped, parents of small children etc. We are not mean and unfeeling people, we are also not required to announce our health problems to everyone on the bus to explain why we did not offer YOU our seats. You may feel that your need is great, but you can not know the needs of everyone else on the bus and they have no need to announce them to you. It's not a contest to see who deserves the seat more. If I'm feeling well and see someone who looks in greater need of my seat I'll give it up gladly. My husband can't do that as he will most probably fall and injure himself and anyone he falls on! I live under the assumption that good manners are more common than bad ones. Hope I didn't offend anyone, but we have gotten some VERY bad attitudes from people.

http://www.geocities.com/~parrietc/pooh/luv_pooh.gif

[jbw3]

I thought about this thread while I was at WDW last week and riding on a bus. I had read the thread before I left, and since we were going with small children, I was somewhat self conscious about it.
We have a 2 yo and a 4 month old. MOre than once, on a crowded bus, someone offered their seat. Thank you. But, I do not expect someone to give me their seat because I am carrying a baby.
With that said, I want to say this thread made me apologetic for things that I could not control. My baby was fine one the bus until the drive took a detour and dropped another driver off. This made a 10 minute bus ride into a 30 minute ride (no joke!) At about 20 minutes into the ride, my DS decided that he was going to throw a fit. More than once I apologized to the people on the bus (thankfully it was not full). I understand that a baby crying can be aggravating to others, but he was not to be consoled. At this point, people began looking at me and one man remarked "You would think that she could quiet him down!"
My point is this.....I think it was out of line for the mother to yell at anyone...hey...we are all on vacation. And, although it is nice (and very appreciated) I do not think that a baby makes it my right to have a seat.
But...sometimes a parent can not console their child, especially a baby and everyone needs to have some kind of understanding about that even if they do not have children.

[robinb]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My point is this.....I think it was out of line for the mother to yell at anyone...hey...we are all on vacation. And, although it is nice (and very appreciated) I do not think that a baby makes it my right to have a seat.
[/quote]

IMO, if anyone is entitled to a seat it is someone carrying an infant! Did you ever actually have to stand with your baby, or is this opinion based on sitting each time due to the kindness of strangers?


-- Robin

[WDWMom]

I agree with you Jenny. We once had a DS fall asleep on DH. He was sitting on DH's shoulders. 5 minutes earlier he was wide awake. A parent can never predict when a child is going to "Crash".

When it is late at night and the buses are full, we usually wait for the next one so all three DK's can have a seat. If bus is full they usually share 2 some how. I have been on many a crowded bus and have always found a way to move and give my seat to someone in need more than I. I always make sure my DKs have one than make sure all other children do. Do I have to do that? No, I just do because I was raised that way and I want to raise my children that way.

Wonder how you all feel about this one. 5 years ago, we went to WDW and I was 5 months pregnant and even the dumbest man alive could tell (it was my fourth). I got on a bus with 4yo DD and had to stand. Had my big belly sticking out right in front of a man the whole time. Never offered his seat or anyone else on the bus.

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[isles_nyi]

And people wonder why I rent a car even when I stay at a Disney resort? Buses appear to be the most hostile places in all of WDW.

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Disneyland - 1974
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[jbw3]

I did have to stand three different times, once with just the baby and the other two times with the baby and the 2 year old while DH was struggling with the stroller (don't even ask!!)
I think it is wonderful that people let me have their seats and I would not hesitate to offer mine for someone in my spot, but I have the feeling that some people believe that I would think it is my right to have a seat. Yes, it is wonderful to sit, but I do not want anyone to think that I would use my two beautiful children to boot the elderly or handicapped from their seats.
Hope no one misunderstood my comments from my last post...

[LIDisneyFan]

Have to agree with jbw3. I have stood many times with kids as toddlers and infants - no one owes us a seat, and I would not want to inconvenience someone to give up their seat for us.

If the kids might be tired, I sit on the curb and wait for the next bus. Just becuase I want to get on the 'next' bus doesn't entitle me to a seat.

And , yes, I do offer my seat to others, especially if they look like they need it. Always the elderly, pregnant, etc.

[lisapooh]

I will not give up my seat to others. They can glare all they want. You can't tell by looking a tme but I cannot stand more than a few minutes without pain. Fortunately most of the time if the bus is crowded I remain in my wheelchair accomodate the comfort of others. Not all that safe as my chair is not easily tied down and often the drivers don't bother because of the complaints of the able bodied. So next time you see a power wheelchair or EMV get on the bus don't complain about the wait to get it properly tied down. It means one more seat for the able bodied. And if it is empty, hold your tongue too, because if I have transferred to a seat it is because the driver hasn't tied it down securely and I am not going to put myself in danger in an accident. He's done this because of too many people hassling him about the time it takes to tie it down correctly.

Pooh Bear

[raidermatt]

The woman was rude for lashing out.

It is never too crowded on a bus to give up a seat. If it were, it would also be too crowded to get off.

Sometimes people are tired and the thought to give up their seat doesn't come to mind. Its just an oversight, and it happens.

Unless seats are marked as being for people with disabilities or for the elderly, nobody is obligated to give up their seat. Also, somebody looking healthy does not mean they are. The person may have a condition or ailment that is not visible when they are sitting. Assuming they should give up their seat is not fair.

Anytime we are in the situation the mother was in, the best approach is to not expect others to sympathize, but be appreciative when they do.

Raidermatt

[Linda]

Hi,
Just a reminder that here at the DIS we believe in ‘playing nice’, just like you would when you’re at the “World”. So please remember that we do not allow personal attacks on the boards. Differences of opinions are just fine and we are all entitled to such, however please keep if polite. If you have any questions about posting please refer to DIS Posting Guidelines at this link: http://wdwinfo.com/guidelines.htm .

Thanks

Linda
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Family Board Host

Coordinator Dis Convention 2001

[CookieGVB]

I've been on crowded buses, subways, trains, etc. If I notice a young child standing, I will make room for the child, even if it means offering to let the child sit on my lap if I can't physically get up. Let the mother stand - give the kid a break! :)

Sis-bam-BOOM!


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[going2wdw]

Just wanted to add a word. I have one of those that can go 100 miles an hour but when she stops she goes to sleep. I've seen her sleep in some places that you wonder how could anyone but it is possible. On our first trip to Disneyland she was 3 and she would be nodding off as she walked to the trams. Luckily I had her hand or we would have lost her as she laid down on the nearest concrete. She immediately fell asleep on the trams and I transferred her sleeping from there to the car and then the hotel. She woke in the mornings ready to go. Yes she was very tired at the end of the day, too tired to be out? No. I'm sure there are lots of kids with a switch like hers. Once the excitement and fun is over they turn off.

This mom was probably a bit frazzled and hearing people comment and notice the situation was more than she could take. Some have shorter fuses. That's no excuse and it shouldn't happen but I wouldn't take it as sign that she made bad parenting decisions.

Janette
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[Tuffcookie]

I don't want to step on any toes here (No pun intended) BUT...If there are two couples sitting in seats and the mom with the little one is standing between the two seats...I know you don't owe it to anyone to give up your seat but whoever had the aisle seats could have stood up and offered their seat. That is not physically impossible to accomplish. Agreed, the mom should not have carried on like that but who knows what kind of a day she had. Be the better person, give up your seat if possible. Call it a random act of kindness or whatever....TC

[JujiD]

It came up that the woman's husband was also on the bus. Instead of yelling at the sitters she should have been yelling at him. Why couldn't he carry the little boy? My family was on a crowded bus at DW and had to stand. I carried one child, a backpack and camera bag, my husband carried the other child (4 yr old) and held onto the stroller with the other hand. It was not easiest thing to do but we managed. After that, we learned to wait for the next bus. I don't want to sound judgemental but, I just don't understand why either parent couldn't have carried him?

[Figaro30]

My reply to that one is that the husband wanted to stay as far away from the crazy wife as possible. That is why he totally kept his mouth shut the entire time. He has to live with the witch. LOL! As a matter of fact, I remember the husband telling the wife....."Okay okay, that's enough." Trying to get her to just SHUT UP! You could tell he just LOVES his wife dearly! LOL

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