List of cuts, changes, and closures now online [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

wdwguide

10-21-2001, 06:28 PM

Chad,

I respect your opinion, but I believe that by unconditionally accepting Walt Disney World's policy changes would be a mistake. I cannot and would not advise people to cancel their trips in light of the most recent in a series of cuts that have been going on and complained about for years, but they should definitely respond in a way that makes Disney understand that these changes are being noticed, and the way they are implemented is not appreciated.

An appropriate way to deal with these changes would have been to inform guests about them ahead of time instead of simply implementing them without advance warning. Is this practice legitimate? Yes! Is it smart? No, because it will have a tremendous backlash as millions of paying guests realize that some of the much-hyped benefits they were expecting simply do not exist any more. And that will cause ireeperable harm in the long term. Disney has received quite a bit, and probably too much negative press in recent years, and they have lost much of the unconditional acceptance of the high quality of their brand. We fans, supporters, critics, and observers need to be sure to let Disney know that they cannot cut too deep into guest programs, or they risk losing much more than they could possibly save.

Finally, I will use unusually strong language and claim that the closing of CoP, one of very few attractions at Walt Disney World personally designed by Walt Disney, during the 100 Years of Magic Celebration is nothing but DISGUSTINGLY TASTELESS; a poor move that I hope will be reversed very quickly. It is simply not appropriate to celebrate Walt Disney's birthday by closing his attractions at the same time.

Anyway, I realize that my list, which I have puposely published without comment or bias, can be used in ways for which it was not intended, which includes "Disney bashing". The list is there for one sole reason, and that is to allow every reader to form their own opinion about what these changes mean to her or him, and to help them plan their trips accordingly.

hopemax

10-21-2001, 06:49 PM

Come on. In light of everything which has gone on lately, these changes are nothing...what, with the rest of the entire business world make cuts, layoffs, etc. (including the entertainment world) and Disney is not allowed to do the same...

Disney is allowed to do the same, but my patience was already thin and I just don't care anymore. In many ways Disney reminds me of the "Boy who cried Wolf." The last 5 years or so has been extremely sucessful financially, but how many years has the 20K lagoon sat empty, how long has the Skyway been closed, why was Beastly Kingdom not announced sooner or built to begin with? There are just so many things that Disney has done before, that now that the "wolf" has arrived, I'm not going to rush out and help. They used up all their "good will" with me already.

I can live without WDW. It takes me the same travel time to fly to Orlando as it does to travel to Tokyo, and I've priced it and it's about the same. Yes, there are still many, many reasons to go to WDW, but you know what? There are many, many reasons to travel somewhere else too!

JeffJewell

10-21-2001, 07:01 PM

frustration that we are so self-centered and micromanaging that we refuse to allow Disney to make any change ...I'm mostly cranky about the specific nature of certain of the cuts, not about the business truth that there must be financially oriented responses to the economy. The EE in particular seems to be a poor target for a budget cut.the only way to save it all is to GO TO WDW I agree with you, and I again find my still scheduled December trip of use as a data point that I am, in fact, using my own disposable income toward the greater good of the Disney Company. My complaint is not completely self-centered (although I must point out that my fully planned and PSed December trip is now in flux at best, upheaval at worst), it is Disney's success-centered.protesting these relatively minor cuts in the big picture will only lead to more cuts I intend my own protests to be specific to certain cuts, and the likely effect those cuts will have.

At this time of year, shorter evening park hours were nicely offset for onsite guests by Surprise Mornings. Disney allegiance or no, the current absence of Surprise Mornings has to be seen as a discouragement from travelling right now, or at least as one less point of distinguishment of Disney resorts from non-Disney alternatives; one fewer compelling reason to stay on-site.

Personally, I'm not saying we should boycott Disney because of the cuts, I'm saying we should not be surprised if this specific cut results in a delay of some families' Disney vacations, and more choices of cheaper non-Disney hotel alternatives for those vacations that still occur relatively as scheduled.

In other words, I believe that at least this one particular cut will only lead to more of the same problems, and therefore, directly lead to even more cuts.

Jeff

PS: Even if you lop off an hour and a half or so of every park's hours, EE is a solid selling point for staying on-site, particularly for the Values and particularly for this time of year. Hell, cut all regular hours and extend the one EE park an _extra_ hour: an overall cut of two park hours worth of staffing, but it makes on-site stays for travel in the immediate future more attractive.

Making travel more attractive right _now_ is Disney's responsiblity, it is not the responsibility of any consumer to help carry this or that company through any economic hardship.

PPS: I agree with the stated sentiment that losing the Carousel of Progress, should that end up being really what has happened, was a vile thing to let happen during the "Walt" celebration.

All Aboard

10-21-2001, 07:10 PM

JJ, this weekend I've been agreeing with just about every post you've made. Which is quite the departure from the All Star thread :) . With respect to the above post, I agree completely. Especially EE.

Cutting back Hunchback from 5 shows to 4, fine. It wasn't coming close to filling anyway. Same with many of the other shows. An hour of MK lost, I can deal with that. Opening World Showcase an hour later, maybe. But, cutting 3 hours out of Future World, eliminating EE, shuttering COP. And ALL of it happening at the same time!?!

There is a point at which WDW goes too far. In my opinion they've reached it. And I really fear that it will continue to get worse. This is not the way to attract guests right now. Especially the best informed guests out there.

Seems the vast majority of DIS'ers agree:

Link to Poll (http://www.disboards.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112683)

PS, Jeff I tried to change reservations to either the weekend of the 1st or 8th. Guess what - All Stars are booked both Saturday nights. Hmmm, good thing they cancelled MK EE since it won't be necessary.

Testtrack321

10-21-2001, 07:47 PM

Luckaly I got to see CoP my last visit.

You never realize how much you love something untill it is gone.

disneyking

10-21-2001, 08:15 PM

Our trip is coming up next Thursday, Oct 25th. I have just learned that there is a high potential that my Hoop dee doo show scheduled for the 29th may be cancelled. Yes that's right cancelled. I have been on the phone all day with central reservations, dining reservations, etc. complaining and trying to get information. It seems that there are in fact plans to cancel some of the 9:30 PM shows (Confirmed by a reservation supervisor at WDW-DINE). It is utter chaos there. Nothing has been properly communicated to the reservationist. They are as frustrated as we are. I have just penned and sent a letter to Michael Eisner, Roy E. Disney, Paul Pressler and Al Weiss. I also sent an email copy to guest relations. I have no hope of a response prior to my departure this week. I am sick of being treated this way. I have spent over $3300 dollars already on this vacation and I am sure we will spend in excess of $1000 more once we get there. I have been treated like some scum today on the phone, not at all like a high dollar paying customer or even a "guest". It is time for all to take action. posted on this board are the addresses for the Disney execs responsible for this mess. If you don't let them know how you feel, the "Magic" will disappear forever. Once it is gone, it is gone forever. And we all will be responsible for letting them kill it. If you care do something.

Bob O

10-21-2001, 08:24 PM

With a vacation to wdw costing thousands of dollars when you have to fly with a family i wouldnt go to wdw now with all the changes that they have implemented. They have made numerous bad moves the last number of years and tried to get by on their reputation but the chickens have come home to roost. In this country/world there are thousands of places to visit and i dont believe at this time wdw is a good deal compared to other vacation places. People are voting with their pocket books and wdw isnt giving people a reason to visit or stay onsite with the changes they have made.

Bob O

10-21-2001, 09:16 PM

I think for most people going to wdw isnt a necessity but a luxury/indulgence unless you happen to live close by. I enjoy going their but with all the cutbacks that have been made i dont feel the value is their at this point and their are alot of other places to visit in the Us and other parts of the world that are nice and for alot of people can be a better value. In my paper today Las Vegas is doing deep discounts on their rooms and arent closing up alot of their resorts to save money. I dont give disney the benefit of the doubt anymore like i used too because they havent shown me they deserve it. They have gotten alot bigger but not all of it is necessarily better.

Safari Steve

10-21-2001, 09:17 PM

and this is really dopey, I shouldn't even post... but I figure everyone might enjoy a little chuckle at my expense...

Recent entertainment cuts may give guests and CMs a "closer personal connection". Recently, WDW entertainment went "global" which is a fancy way of saying that rather than being several localized departments, it is now one big property-wide department (I'm over-simplifying, but I think you get it...) This resulted in the company being able to add a parade without increasing staffing proportionately. Initially, this meant that the 3 pm Mickey's Jammin' Jungle Parade at DAK and Tapestry of Dreams could utilize many of the same performers. Now that MJJP has been moved to 4pm, they may be able to utilize many CMs for THREE parades (MGM@2, DAK@4, Epcot@6:15/8). With the same group of CMs playing such prominent roles in such a large chunk of each guest's visit to WDW, the emotional take-away will be increased. Imagine showing your photos to friends..."This is Chad from St. Paul. He was the greeter for Tigger at MGM, Chauffer for Aladdin in the Motorcars parade, driver of the camel float at Animal Kingdom, and third Aztec man in Tapestry of Dreams." It'll be as if you have your own personal parade. Imagine now if this type of staffing is adapted to other areas of park operation: "Hi, I'm Safari Steve, I'll be your Jungle Skipper today. Tomorrow, I'll be your server at Prime Time, and on Thursday I'll sell you a snow globe! If you're in Fantasyland from 3pm-7pm tonight, be sure to drop some trash on the ground, chances are I'll be the one who sweeps it up."
:earseek:

Another Voice

10-21-2001, 10:09 PM

This is not the first time that Disney has faced either an economic recession or a war, yet it is the only time I can remember when Disney placed so much of the impact on its guests. Whether that is justified or not is a decision that the Company needs to make for itself. Those of us who have not been impressed with the Company’s decision making lately cannot be blamed for our uneasiness about their ability to handle current matters.

Nor should people feel guilty about canceling trips because they feel they won’t receive a fair value for their money. Many people were questioning the value of a Disney vacation before this summer. And, I hope, people are rethinking a lot of their priorities right now. Perhaps the money spent on yet one more trip to WDW would be of more use at a children’s hospital. Or the money may be better if put away for a child’s college education. Or even perhaps used to help the families of our servicemen and women. There are trade-offs in all of our decisions. Our world changed and perhaps we should act accordingly.

Disney is a business, not a charity. It is NOT our role to save Disney by bailing them out from their own business decisions. We should NOT be made to feel that supporting the stock options of the Learjet elite is our obligation. If the Company decides it’s in its best interest to get more profit from its guests rather than to encourage more guests to visit – Disney will have to live with the consequences of it’s actions. If it works, fantastic. Disney will come out of this a stronger company. If not, then Disney will have hurt its stockholders, its employees and its customers all for the sake of greed.

Not a good thing to do during Walt’s Birthday party.

P.S. Here’s an interesting tidbit – Watch ‘The Drew Carey Show’ this week, just that one episode. Disney paid Mr. Carey far more money to appear on your television set for thirty minutes than it saved by shutting down the ‘Carousel of Progress’ for an entire year. And the Company pays Mr. Carey despite the fact that Disney losses money on each episode of ‘Drew Carey’ (they hope to make it up later in syndication).

JeffH

10-21-2001, 11:22 PM

"MGM@2"
I thought the MGM parade was being run at 4pm, soon to shift back to 3:30pm on 10/28?
So the parades at MK, MGM, and AK basically (3, 3:30, 4pm) all run at the same time, now (making it impossible to catch more than one of them, as we did a few weeks ago when we hurried from the 3pm MK parade to catch the 4:30pm parade at MGM)

TXDeb

10-22-2001, 12:12 AM

Well, well, well, we're really going to see how deep loyalty really runs...this should be interesting...very, very interesting...

I am loyal to my country, I am loyal to my family.
I do not put loyalty to a business in that same catagory, even if it is Disney!

Besides, doesn't that work both ways? Shouldn't a company have some loyalty to its customers?
Especially, the customers that are willing to return year after year and pay thousands of dollars as consumers of its product. Many businesses do reward 'loyal' customers with frequent guest programs. Disney chose not to do that.
Not only have they not offered any kind of frequent guest program, they have gradually cut back on any kind of rewards programs that were offered in the past. The recent cuts just make it worse.

I do understand that some cut-backs are necessary in these uncertain times, but I have watched so many cuts being made in the good times, that I am suspicious of Disney's motives. Even more than that, I abhor the manner in which these cuts have been done. Such short notice, and lying to their guests about EE is not good customer service. Leaving the CMs and guests in the dark, so that people are scrambling to try to figure out whether their PS arrangements are valid, is not good customer service.

I have been loyal to Disney for years. My family of five has returned yearly, staying on site in the deluxe resorts, eating in WDW restaurants, and forgoing other choices of vacation spots to make our yearly trip to WDW. There has been no other business that I have supported both financially and emotionally, the way that I have Disney, especially when you add in my pins, DVDs, movie tickets, etc. All I ask in return is for the company to provide a quality product and HONEST service. If they can not do that, I have no more obligation to spend my money with them, then they do to provide me with the same product that they have in the past.

That's not a question of loyalty. It's a question of using my own money wisely for my family. No matter what happens, I will remain loyal to Disney and all that it has represented to me in the past. I will remain loyal to the ideals and ideas which Walt fought for. I would hate to see Disney fold. However, if the decisions being made by the top brass these days fail to entice visitors to the parks, then it isn't the Disney I knew anyway. The WDW that I knew was a magical place where people dreamed of going because they knew what to expect - a unique and excellent product. Take that away - and it isn't Disney anymore!

Planogirl

10-22-2001, 01:09 AM

I have also been very loyal to Disney in the past. I have scrimped and saved to go to WDW, year after year, not only because I enjoyed it but because it felt like home to me. I have recommended WDW to many people and helped many plan their trips. I have defended them when they seem to do goofy things and I've even changed a few minds.

However, I do question their decisions right now. I don't appreciate them completely closing down COP during a celebration of Walt's life. That's a VERY tacky decision. I dislike losing e-nights and early entry with all of the cutbacks on operating hours. I hate them laying off the entertainers and other CM's because these people are a big part of what makes WDW so special IMO. Most of all, I'm suspicious because they were already making cutbacks before the recent disasters even though things were supposedly good then. I'm tired of Disney management cheapening WDW.

As for loyalty to WDW, I don't quite understand this. I LOVE WDW but I don't think that it's my responsibility to save the company. I will gladly pay them for a product, a good product but I don't think that I should pay them for an inferior product. At least, I don't believe that it should be as costly as before. They are a business and deserve to be treated like one when it comes to money. After all, we have been dealing directly with layoffs and have had to tighten our belts so maybe it's time for Disney to tighten theirs some too. And not by cutting services to their customers. It is fine to cut the number of shows or restaurant hours and such things. But drastically cutting park hours, doing away with entertainment and so forth is way too much IMO.

I probably won't be returning to WDW without a good discount for my resort stay. I would also rent a car because it's starting to appear that the only Disney facilities that will be open at night may be Downtown Disney and World Showcase. I love to shop but can only do so much so it appears that going offsite may become a necessity soon.

TXDeb

10-22-2001, 02:24 AM

I posted this on another thread on another board but I think it fits here as well:

My problem with this whole thing is trying to reconcile the idea that the shorter hours and reduced services are because of poor attendance when I keep reading posts from people who have just returned who say that the parks are busy, the CMs who are working are working often overtime, and transportation is often crowded. Some of the posters have said that this was true on weekdays as well as weekends. Yes, they say that wait times for rides are reasonable, but they usually are in the off-season. That is why we usually try to go in non-peak times.

In talking to a CRO CM today, I mentioned the changes, and remarked that things must be a little crazy for them. She told me that no, actually things were fine. She and her co-workers had been working a lot of overtime hours. Now, this just doesn't make sense. Why let go of so many CMs to cut expenses, and then pay overtime wages to the ones that you have working???!!!

I also read on another Disney board that the Character Caravan was not a replacement for EE, even though it is being marketed as such. The poster said that it was done as a concession to the character union as a negotiation for more hours for the characters. This person (a CM, I believe) also stated that the elimination of EE was done as a 'test'. Now I don't know if this true, but if it is, it would be another example of Disney being dishonest to the guests. It also means that if we don't voice our displeasure at the loss of EE, the company will assume that they can cut this benefit without anyone caring. What might the next 'test' be, in that case!

Safari Steve

10-22-2001, 04:52 AM

You know... you may be right. My gaff.... In any event, the parades at DAK and Epcot use the same performers. Changing the first parade's time to 4 saves a bit of money... other than that, refer to my earlier post... What did I see at 2???

wdwguide

10-22-2001, 07:32 AM

It looks like there is one more new cut that I missed: WDWmagic.com reports that the ride portion of The Living Seas is now bypassed.

HBK

10-22-2001, 08:44 AM

*****ing and moaning will not help WDW through this time when people aren't traveling...you know, maybe WDW deserves a bailout like the airlines

I'm sorry....Spending more time & money in WDW is not going to restore any of the things we've lost. Disney will just realize the profits and keep them for themselves. I hate to do this....but there's a new way to describe Ei$ner's company.....

The Walt DI$NEY Co.

I'm sure Walt's proud of what his company has become.

Also, the airlines deserve bailout money in my eyes because at least they are trying to drum up business.....I had to purchase my airfare to Orlando a week before I left (my original flight on Midway was cancelled). I was not only able to get a flight....but it was the cheapest I've ever flown. It's a two way street. The airlines are hurting because they are cutting prices while incurring an addittional cost (increased security). WDW is hurting because they are keeping prices at the status quo while cutting the amenities.

Chad...I stand by my original statement. Just what is the Di$ney company doing to entice customers to head to florida? Does cutting park hours make you pack your bags? Does closing attractions make you run out to the airport?

It has lowered hotel rooms
please show me this discount code. I spoke with RCO at least a dozen times before I left and they were insulted that I even asked. One person told me "We would never try to profit from a tragedy such as 911". I tried to get some type of discount and was rejected. All I was offered was the rack rate at the moderates.

Planogirl

10-22-2001, 08:59 AM

I agree that Disney is quite unique and I love the company tremendously. That's why all of this bothers me so much. I don't expect WDW to keep things as they were but I do hear a lot about how management hasn't cut costs from within in any way except at the lower levels of the company. In any company I've been at, all levels were subjected to cost cutting.

Disney is not an inferior product as compared to other forms of entertainment but it has become inferior to what it once was, at least temporarily. This may be unavoidable right now but one of the reasons that Disney has the famous Magic in my opinion is the high level of service and the ability to completely immerse oneself in the Disney environment. This is why I've been willing to pay a premium for the pleasure of going to WDW again and again. If that goes away, I see no reason to stay onsite unless lower prices reflect the new lower standards. I guess that I still want the Disney experience but not at the current cost. And, I also haven't had any luck getting discounts for some reason.

But the main issue I have is that Disney seems to be suffering due to lack of attendance. How are cutbacks such as these going to lure the traveler back to WDW? I understand that many of the other areas that were hard hit by the recent tragedies are working on incentives to bring the tourists back. What exactly is WDW doing other than making themselves less appealing?

HBK

10-22-2001, 10:41 AM

The lowered hotel room I refered to was based on the earlier post that AllStars have been lowered in some cases to $39. I cannot confirm this but the source is pretty reliable.

Try to book it. Unless it's an AP discount (which were around before 911) it's not existant.

Frankly, with they continued anthrax and other threats, I don't think deep discounts would do much to get people, already afraid to travel these days, to travel to WDW. Discounts are nice but I doubt they are a cure to travel anxiety..

But the cure to travel anxiety is to keep the prices sky high while providing a inferior product? How does that encourage travel?

P.S. It's not stopping other hotels around WDW. Check out Pete's post at the top of the thread. Why is it the other hotels in and around Disney feel a need to discount, but the Di$ney company doesn't?

So, HBK, get your head out of that Boston smog

It's not smog...it's dust from the Big Pig...er I mean Dig.

these changes, while frustrating and inconvenient, have not destroyed the value of even going to WDW. The parks are open. The resorts are meticulous. Many, many small extra pieces of magic exist throughout the world...my Massachusetts friend, I believe that East Coast air is quite thin these days...

They may not have totally destroyed the value of a WDW trip....but they have cheapened it. Can I ask a question....what is the value of staying on-site? Seeing some charaters @ the bus stop (which you'll see at the parks anyway)?

The problem is nothing has been cut which you personally like. You apparently didn't care much for the streetmosphere, or the EE days, or the shows which have been cancelled....wait until Disney cuts something which you value....and we'll see where you stand.

Disney is not an inferior product as compared to other forms of entertainment but it has become inferior to what it once was, at least temporarily.

Get used to it. Once the crowds come back...something tells me you won't be seeing EE come back....and during the off season, I think you'll start to see more of the reduced schedule (shows only performing on certain days, etc). Once the pandora's box is open, you can't shut it.

Another Voice

10-22-2001, 12:29 PM

No one is disputing the necessity of cutbacks – but I think people are questioning where Disney’s priorities are. Each and every cut seems to be aimed at squeezing out more money from the few people who are willing to travel. And no one sees any attempt to make people WANT to come to WDW.

To be blunt – this is the same lack of respect that Disney has been showing its guest for several years now. They simply believe we will come no matter what, we will pay no matter what, and there will be people who will remain “loyal” no matter what. That philosophy may have served Mr. Pressler well when he was running the ‘Care Bears’ licensing company, but it is disastrous for Disney.

I have too much on my shoulders these days as it is. The burdens of Disney’s business are theirs alone. I owe them no loyalty, I owe them no obligation, I need not accept every change they make. While some may still find WDW a good value for their money, a growing number of people have not and the recent changes seem to have swelled those ranks. More than ever, I need a reason to travel to WDW.

Disney just doesn’t seem interested in providing any.

macs4us

10-22-2001, 12:54 PM

If they cared about their guests and underlings we wouldn't be talking about as many cuts. Case in point: VPs and higher are still getting their yearly perk of a new car (Cadillacs and Suburbans), free gas and car washes; they are still doing their executive retreats at the Ritz-Carlton with sailing excursions. Just like a lot of other companies, the Big Guys don't want to take a hit, even though it may be what is best in the long run. The reason people get upset about Disney doing these things is they try to portray themselves as being more than just "a business." They are DISNEY!!! It's like family!!!

I have APs to both Disneyland Parks, and WDW. Will I be renewing? Questionable... Whether we like it or not, sometimes complaint letters don't work, and actions speak louder than words.

Bests,
Amy

larworth

10-22-2001, 01:04 PM

I’m willing to look at current decisions in a different light than the decisions they were making prior to 911. I can understand why some change may be prudent given the drop in overall attendance and new visitation dynamics. I don’t mind change as long as the goal isn’t how can we best reduce benefits to help balance the books. Change should be made to modify the value proposition so it remains relevant.

I’m not worried about the imprudence of these reductions shorterm. I doubt they will play a major role in the AVERAGE person’s current travel decisions compared with their safety and economic concerns. I assume a good share won’t even know about these until after they arrive. Now, whether this impacts their experience once there is a different story.

Disney must be trying hard to guess which is the lesser of evils here. This is probably a critical time for them to get feedback on what customers do and don’t like. The problem with complaining is that it is often done in a vacuum, since we don't know what other options were considered. They’re always conducting these polls on the Disney channel, maybe their Web site should have a few on potential park changes. It does seem clear that they need to rethink how changes are implemented and communicated. At least shorten the lag when they can be open with customers.

I do worry that when attendance returns to normal they will decide they can put a couple of these reductions in the bank. Scoop, I was surprised to hear you say advanced bookings are so soft. Gee, I would have thought the masses would be lining up to attend the DinoRama grand opening. Must be a PR problem.

If only other divisions in the company were doing well this would have been the perfect time for a little payback. You know, let their good results cover up for poor profits in the parks for a change. Maybe, than they wouldn’t have to make any reductions. Might have even changed some of my thinking about the value of being a division in a mega media conglomerate.

hopemax

10-22-2001, 01:33 PM

Has anyone tried booking a trip through the Walt Disney Travel Company recently?

I want to know if the "average" guest (the ones who don't know the tricks to getting a discount) is being quoted a discounted rate or if the answer to "do you have any discounts?" has been changed to anything other than "no, not at this time," even though if you ask for a specific discount they can find it.

Money can be a great motivator in overcoming fear. But if the "average" guest who is trying to book a 2002 vacation is still being quoted the 2002 rack prices, why travel to WDW, with everything that is going on, when you can go somewhere else that is offering significant discounts?

Fear may be a very real factor in people skipping WDW, but lack of easily obtainable discounts could be the "deal breaker."

disneyking

10-22-2001, 05:33 PM

Well its confirmed. I just received a call from a special CRO rep that confirmed that ALL 9:30 PM Hoop Dee Doo shows through Oct 31 have been cancelled. They are rescheduling everyone on the 5:00 & 7:15 shows. She indicated that they were manually redrawing the seating charts. As you may know seating at the Hoop Dee Doo and Polynesian Revue seating is decided by when you make your reservation. First reservations get best tables. They are attempting to redraw the seating to accommodate the cancelled guests original reservation date. Also since Amex specials were at 9:30 only they are accommodating Amex discounts at earlier shows for cancelled guests.

DC7800

10-22-2001, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Another Voice
No one is disputing the necessity of cutbacks ? but I think people are questioning where Disney?s priorities are. Each and every cut seems to be aimed at squeezing out more money from the few people who are willing to travel. And no one sees any attempt to make people WANT to come to WDW.

More than ever, I need a reason to travel to WDW.
Disney just doesn?t seem interested in providing any.

When your business income drops dramatically, Disney understandably has to do something - you can either make cuts and try to save enough money to make up the difference, or you can do whatever it takes to attract more customers to make up the difference. In the short term, this may mean spending more money on various promotions and operating half-empty parks regular hours - but it will pay off when the crowds return (shortly). Deep cuts like we saw this weekend sends the signal that WDW isn't expecting the situation to improve anytime soon. Disney needs to spend a little more time figuring out ways to attract guests to it's resorts and parks, and a bit less time finding ways to save a buck (they've proven they know how to save money - now how about making money through investing in the parks). Both may well improve the bottom line this quarter, but making cuts with no new investment will only compound the problem in future years.

JeffH

10-22-2001, 07:42 PM

"Many businesses do reward 'loyal' customers with frequent guest programs. Disney chose not to do that."
Actually Florida residents (but FL residents only), do get quite good frequent guest benifits through the Annual Pass and Disney Dining Experience.
But I would agree that it would certainly be fair and 'rewarding' to offer something like, book 7 nights at any resort get 1 free and/or put a maximum price on the length of stay tickets (like 100 short of what an out-of-state annual pass would cost). This would help people justify staying as long as possible to take advantage of the 'free' days in the parks after 7 days.
From what I've heard, the MK is busy, but the other parks are deserted. And the MK seems even busier due to the cutbacks at the rides (not running at full capacity). This would reflect their actions.

Captain Crook

10-22-2001, 07:51 PM

I think Disney IS reacting to the worst case scenerio of what is going on, instead of 'short changing' the situation as most American's are doing. In other words, they are playing for long term viability rather than a short turn turnaround based on, well...Nothing. We are at war. Terrorism has reared its ugly head on our shores and as my friend Scoop keeps pointing out, the future is a great big blank. Disney could do, as my (also) good friend gcurling suggests, ignore the unknown and attempt to lure guests back in any manner available, but can Disney convince them to fly? Doubtful. Further, this course has huge inherent risks should they be wrong about the turnaround (read, the end of the Company). Now, this would mean little to some of our DIS friends, but the fact is, Disney is preparing for the long haul...In fact, they are trying to get out of the Fox Family deal anyway they can.

Disney is still Disney. I just got back from WDW and while AV may find little to draw him & others seem to hold nothing but disdain for anything Disney, I see it as a change that I have to personally react to. Certainly my planning will have to improve if I want to see specific shows and there may be disappointments in certain things that I want to do, but so what. It's still fun for my family. It's still magical for me. And having just returned from the AKL for the third time, I can still say that I was treated magically in an environment that I have never experienced anywhere else.

One last note, AK was also jammed Thur, Fri, Sat & Sun (as were the other, more reported Parks)...So, I guess we Floridians are still having fun, but the weekday miseries will continue. If you bemoan what is happening now, I hasten to come around when Park closures are initiated, and this too will happen if things continue to deteriorate (i.e. what if Smallpox is released???).
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

wdwguide

10-22-2001, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Captain Crook
Now, this would mean little to some of our DIS friends, but the fact is, Disney is preparing for the long haul...

I respectfully disagree with you on this point. After the implementation of FastPass and the opening of the Rock n Roller Coaster, Disney has done very little in terms of long-term investments in Florida. Mission: Space is the main exception to that trend
In fact, most everything they did was geared towards short-term profit in order to compensate for the losses other sectors of the company were incurring.

Disney cannot convince people to fly by offering discounts or opening new attractions, but they can certainly convince them to travel by train or car, which is a feasible alternative throughout much of the eastern US.

Captain Crook

10-22-2001, 08:46 PM

To me, how Disney behaved prior to 911 is moot. Those days are gone. The past is past and the future is totally unclear. In fact, I'd say it was a blessing in disguise that Disney went through the 'belt tightening' when they did instead of blindly building e-ticket rides as many would have had. This effort is probably saving their butts now.

Further, Disney isn't going to convince people to travel be it by plane, train or automobile in a climate of antrhax, smallpox or other unknown horrors that our government hasn't yet deemed us worthy of knowing.

Disney is absolutely doing the right thing by hunkering down and seeing their way through as best they can. Their actions will be rewarded or scorned dependent on whatever comes down the road next...And I for one don't know what that is. But having just returned from AKL, I can say that my trip was great, security checkpoints and all!

:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

wdwguide

10-22-2001, 09:04 PM

It's great that we can disagree without resorting to flames or accusations- I appreciate that! Thank you for the healthy discussion.

I believe our main difference lies in the perception of the consequences of the September 11 attacks, and only time can tell whose approach is closer to reality.

Captain Crook

10-22-2001, 09:12 PM

wdwguide, I too, appreciate the reasonable approach - although my friend Landbaron rarely uses "reasonable" & "Captain Crook" in the same paragraph!

We can continue to disagree on Disney...But perhaps we shouldn't discuss the Gators & 'Canes???;)
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

JeffH

10-22-2001, 09:24 PM

I heard that WITHOUT ANY NOTICE, they cut out all the EVEN holes in the recently completed Disney golf tournament?!?

;) of course.

I would have to agree with the Captain, here.
Luckily, Disney only had 2 long term projects in the works (Pop Culture and Mission: Space) when this happened, other wise they (and therefore we) would have been victims of this as well. I
wonder if I bring a hammer and some nails if they'd let me stay at the Pop Culture for free?!?

Tammy O

10-22-2001, 09:28 PM

Regarding new attractions, isnt mission space being paid for mainly by the sponser and not wdw???
When you compare what they have done to their competition ie Universal wdw has taken a back seat of late.
RNRcoaster is a ok ride but isnt as good as the Hulk/DD. Disney hasnt attempted anything remotely comparable to Spiderman or Men in Black.
WDW is using its reputation to get visitors but not adding any thing that is new and would make people want to return to see it, and now with the cutbacks their is less reason to return, and escpecially to stay on site. There is a saying pennywise and pound foolish and wdw may be saving money in the stort term but their actions will cause long term losses when things turn around and the good will they built up is lost. Already my younger children 16yoa and 9 yoa perfer universal and nothing disney is doing will encourage them to change their mind and my youngest 5yoa watches nick alot more then the disney channel which doesnt do alot to inspire confidence. And i have also lost confidence in wdw, i think wdw needs to change their direction and should start at the top by replacing eisner with somebody new.
With eisner in charge im not optimistic about the future of wdw, he has had his time but time has passed him by and he needs to be replaced! I felt this before 9/11 and feel it more so now!
It should be by Bob O, i forgot to log off my wife.

Bob O

10-22-2001, 10:07 PM

Another Voice

10-22-2001, 11:47 PM

Captain, sir. I am glad you were able to make a third visit this year to the Animal Kingdom Lodge, and I am honestly glad you and your family enjoyed the visit. I do not think our differences of opinion come from varying appreciations of “magic”, or different philosophies, or even from different tastes. I think it all comes down to our levels of confidence in The Company’s current management. I truly hope that you, Captain, are correct. But based on my experience, I fear that I am right.

The one truth about magic is that it’s one part illusion, and four parts willingness to believe. The audience is an active part of the process. It’s the audience that changes flickering images on a screen into a story about an elephant that can fly, it’s the audience that changes a fiberglass building in a Florida orange grove into the storybook castle, and it’s the audience that changes a bus ride through a zoo into an African safari. Break the audience’s will for even just a moment – and the “magic” disappears forever.

People’s wills are rather fragile right now, and it will take effort to get an audience to do its part of “magic”. It does not help matters when Disney constantly reminds the audience that they are simply part of an economic calculation designed to insure the survival of a massive corporation. A trip to WDW right now is a huge financial and emotion investment for the vast majority of people; very, very few have the luxury of multiple trips in a single year. People are – and should – make careful decisions.

To many, the message sent by all the recent cutbacks is that The Company is more important than its guests. That is a shock for those who want to see “magic” and one that I have never seen Disney send before. At a time when the Company could be setting an example and displaying some true business leadership, it seems to be taking the cowardly, easy way out.

Captain Crook

10-23-2001, 06:48 AM

I think it all comes down to our levels of confidence in The Company's current management.
Well, perhaps we can agree on something (lol). But it is still the individual desire to go and enjoy. For many the desire to pick nits is far greater than the personal satisfaction of going to WDW. For others nothing short of Eisner's departure will allow for the admission of any good decisions. For others the fact that something they personally liked has been taken away hits home (be it EE nights, show time cancellations or free valet parking).

Certainly everyone has aright to dissent from my opinion, I realize I'm the leader of the 'Rose colored glasses' brigade. But I intensly dislike being characterized as shallow, unintelligent, a lemming or as having my head buried in the sand because I see WDW in such a positive light (make no mistake, this particular thread has remained civil, but others have been less courteous).

As I have said, I do have the luxury of multiple yearly visits, which allow much greater selectivity, but still in order for my vacation to be magical certain elements must remain and IMO, they still do, much of which probably directly relate tot he fact that I'm still taking small children & my personal mindset is to see that we're having fun as a family - not to whine about NOT getting to see Beauty & the Beast (my favorite show, btw).

Many of you figure that what's gone is lost forever...This, I guess, is the part I don't get. I can't beleive that when/if things get back to normal that things at Disney won't (that's our difference in faith in current management, I guess).
to many, the message snt by all the recent cutbacks is that the Company is more important than the guest.
Well, isn't it? In trying times isn't it more important that the Company survive rather than flame out in a blaze of glory (sometimes it is better to run away to live and fight another day)? I know Eisner and the executive salaries are a big bother to many of you, but you're being microscopic. These things are quite irrellevent in the big picture. I too, would love Eisner to follw the AA CEO & make a gesture (if for no other reason than to please the masses) but it really isn't substantial in the scheme of things.

The fact is that closing shows that are running far below capacity is a smart thing. The same with Parks. I'm sure weekend schedules will even out if the crowds remain, but expect weekdays to take further cuts including total closure if the crowds stay away. I won't like it, for it will make my planning a bit more difficult, but I understand it...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

HBK

10-23-2001, 07:03 AM

And when things return to normal do you think wdw will return everything they have reduced/eliminated or will they only return a portion of the items they cut back/eliminated??? It seems once things are cut back they are never returned to there former glory. I think things will slowly return but wont be returned in its entirety and will again be used to save money and reduce the guest experience>

I'm with ya Bob. Say good-bye to EE. Say hello to staggered schedules. You can't close the box once it's opened.

The one truth about magic is that it’s one part illusion, and four parts willingness to believe.

I think that is the most accurate statement regarding Disney's magic I've ever heard. It seems like they're losing a lot of the willingness parts as of late.

Many of you figure that what's gone is lost forever...This, I guess, is the part I don't get. I can't beleive that when/if things get back to normal that things at Disney won't (that's our difference in faith in current management, I guess).

Captain....why would they re-introduce these options? When they cut the hours back in the past, have they ever re-instated them?

Captain Crook

10-23-2001, 08:24 AM

Captain...why would they reintroduce those options?
Simple supply & demand. When they are once again forced to compete for profitability in a real world economy, they will again have to offer perks, benefits & Disney niceities as they always have. Right now they're sailing uncharted waters, but the course will steady in time...When? That's the million dollar question.

I have complete faith that Disney will continue to act 'Disney like'...When I lose that faith, my alligence will be gone & so will my willingness to spend any of my money along with my desire to care or talk about Disney any further. But, as I said, I just returned from another great trip, and maybe I don't need as much as others, maybe what I need is just different, but I can tell you that the AKL all by itself will keep my AP in use for the rest of this year!
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 08:40 AM

Hmmm....
Seems that in some people's eyes Disney will never have to compete for their dollars. It is one of the only businesses that I know of where there is such a large percentage of loyal customers that will continue to spend money there, no matter how the product is cut. How many other companies can make the cut-backs that Disney has, and still have people ready to spend such big bucks (and who are ready to chastise those who prefer not to spend for a lesser product)?

If there is a large enough group willing to accept anything Disney decides to offer, at any price that Disney decides to charge, then Disney will never ever really be operating in the 'real world economy' that other businesses face. (And their business decisions will continue to reflect that.)

Captain Crook

10-23-2001, 09:02 AM

It seems TxDeb, that it is you doing the chastising. I fully accept your decision to withold your money for a product you feel inferior, but do I have to be labeled a simpleton because I happen to still enjoy WDW? This friendly discussion could get nasty if that's true...

I just do not subscribe to the theory that Eisner is the devil & the Company no longer cares about its reputation or its guests...Last weekend they cared for my family very well. I much prefer to have Disney be able to ride out this very unclear & troubled time & be there when normalcy again arrives (whenever that is)...

As for Disney not having to compete to keep my dollar...Well, I've been to SeaWorld, US/IOA, Vegas & Busch Gardens, so Disney has had to "keep me" coming back. But these other options don't turn my crank. I have no desire to visit the others more than once in a blue moon, does this indicate that I'm a blind follower? I think not...

Lastly, if this discussion is to continue I was under the opinion that two sides needed to be represented. If the majority here wishes to bash without merit, let me know, I'll leave...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 09:18 AM

Captain Cook,
I am not chastising you for your personal decision, and I am sorry if you took it that way. It was a general comment not directed at anyone in particular. I am not in any way trying to imply that you are a simpleton.

BTW - I could be just as offended by those posts that seem to imply that I am not a 'loyal' Disney fan if I choose not to want to support their recent decisions with my $$$.

Lastly, if this discussion is to continue I was under the opinion that two sides needed to be represented. If the majority here wishes to...

I have no problem with hearing your opinion. I appreciate your comments from the 'other side'. I just want to be able to state my opinions as well! Besides, I don't see this as 'taking sides'. I am a big Disney fan. I love WDW and want to see the company continue to do well. We just disagree on their methods, not the end goal.

Baileymouse

10-23-2001, 09:24 AM

The Fall has always been a soft time for Disney attendance but I'd like to see figures for Oct. & Nov. comparing them with previous years. I tried to get an inexpensive flight for "Jersey Week" but couldn't. If all the area airports up here are saying that the flights are at or near capacity for the Nov. 8 - 12 period, where is the decrease? Yes, it was slow the week after the attack. Yes, they let the part-timers go. I don't think there's been that much of a decrease. Perhaps oversaturation and the glut of hotel rooms, combined with an economy which has softened made them need to offer discounts but I don't think they're hurting as badly as other destinations. Travel agents can't get anyone to fly to the Caribbean but they're telling me that they've had no real change in Disney reservations since Oct. 1.

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 09:39 AM

Actually, thedscoop, my btw was not directed at you personally either. I just noticed posts in several different threads from a few different people that seem to express that general feeling. Didn't really notice who they were in particular since it wasn't 'that' big a deal to me. They are welcome to, and have a right to their opinion. Just a reoccuring theme that I noticed.

JeffJewell

10-23-2001, 10:21 AM

if you make WDW into Six Flags...if you close entire parks or reduce hours below the 9 hour a day mark, if you screw around too much...you're gonna be gone because even us loyal Disney fans will be gone ...perhaps that is the root of our differences of opinion on things Disney. I think it's important to kick your feet and scream long before Pressler has the chance to turn it into Six Flags. If you wait to be upset until he does it, well, it's done, then. None of the cars are going anywhere, at that point.

I think it's important to call attention to disturbing trends and directions, because after you've hit the wall, it's well too late to change course.

Jeff

YoHo

10-23-2001, 10:48 AM

I like the good Captain have a hard time being MAD at Disney right now.

To those of you that think Disney will never give back the perks it took away. I find that unlikely. You know EE is a fairly new idea. An Idea designed to make staying onsite even more appealing then before. When Disney is ready to ramp up again and return to 90% occupancy, you'll see the return of EE to keep those rooms full. Disney ultimatly needs to stay profitable and when things are back on track, their current policies will no longer be the most profitable.

At the same time, I say vote with your pocketbook. If its enough to change or cancel your plans, do it. Call them and express your displeasure. Just because you and I understand why they did something, doesn't mean we have to take it lying down. If you aren't happy let them know.

Ultimatly, the only way Disney will survive is to make their guests happy. If they can make their guests happy without as many shows and without EE, then they will. If they can't then that will change. We control Disney's purse strings.

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 10:50 AM

I think it's important to call attention to disturbing trends and directions, because after you've hit the wall, it's well too late to change

Exactly, my thoughts, Jeff.
The reason that I am so critical of some of WDW's decisions is because I love the place, and I am really afraid for its future. I am not naive. I do understand that some cut-backs are necessary at this time. BUT, I don't believe that Disney is being wise in the way that they are handling these things. Not only are they undermining the trust and good will of so many customers by the way some of the cuts are being made, they are also making many decisions that will lead to cancellations, rather than enticing guests to visit and spend money.

If I blindly accept all the changes, then IMHO, I am allowing, even encouraging, the company to continue to act in what I fear are unwise directions. I am really afraid of where that may lead next! I can express my opinions through letters, phone calls, and e-mails, and I am doing those things. However, I fear that they are not listening to their customers and that the only way to reach the powers of WDW at this point is through $$$. I do hope that I am wrong, though.

JeffJewell

10-23-2001, 11:10 AM

if we can identify changes which would be more acceptable, then maybe the Disney lurkers around here might just consider them ...do not cut the things like Surprise Mornings that are part of the reason people stay on-site, part of the narrowing gap between Disney resorts and off-site resorts. Surprise Mornings are also part of the motivation for WDW "regulars" to go this time of year: EE adds park hours to what are otherwise short days, this season. Less park time, less incentive to travel now.

Gotta cut hours, okay, open AK an hour later everyday but add a Surprise Morning there. You're saving staffing hours overall while maintaining (perhaps even extending) the extra value of EE for on-site guests.

I'm not against cuts, I'm against stupid cuts that will just lead to fewer people travelling now, and fewer people seeing the value in staying on-site, precisely the two wounds from which WDW already bleeds.

Jeff

YoHo

10-23-2001, 11:17 AM

I think that's the key, cutting a resort perk right now is only going to make it worse. For instance, many like gcurling take advantage of EE and stay onsite over weekends. His is one less family that will be there. Keep it up and you may see the weekends die off much as the weekdays have.

I agree with JeffJewell, cut your regular operating hours, especially during the week.

Captain Crook

10-23-2001, 11:32 AM

Disney maintained it's regular schedules (regular hours, full slate of shows, EE, etc) but instead closed a minor Park three days a week? Like Epcot on Monday, MGM on Tuesday & AK on Wednesday (notice no closing of MK). Further, they could operate only one water park per day. Would this be better or worse?
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

YoHo

10-23-2001, 11:37 AM

I'd rather they cut hours (especially opening hours. I personally enjoy the park at night.)

Having an entire park closed for a day could work to though. wouldn't bother me. Heck it might make maintainence and new construction cheaper as well.

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 11:50 AM

Excellent idea, thedscoop!

First of all, I am not against the elimination of EE, if they can offer WDW resort guests, an alternative that still offers some benefit for park access as an incentive to stay on-site. How about some form of FOTL pass. Instead of blanket FOTL access, each resort could offer some type of FOTL pass to different resorts on different days. (Deluxes have FOTL pass to MK on certain days, Moderates on another, etc. This would help spread the crowds out more evenly among the parks. Even if it was done, for only limited hours at each park, it would still give resort guests a feeling of some kind of perk. There should be some way of implementing a system like this without adding too much additional cost. Not sure how to handle MK on Sat. though, unless all resort guests had FOTL access on Sat.

Or bring back EE, the resulting loss of resorts guests may be a bigger 'cost' than the program itself. It would be especially attractive, if opening hours remain at later times. Even if EE was only offered at MK and the Studios, or one day per park, with an additional MK EE on Sat. Or at least have some kind of 'extra' park access for resort guests on busy days, such as Sat. at MK.

Next - how about temporarily closing down some of the minor parks, instead of drastically reducing hours and rides at the major ones. I would much rather have only one minature golf and one water park open, then lose the hours and shows at the big four. Heck, only opening these auxilary parks on the weekends when the crowds are heaviest, would be fine with me. Same with WWoS. There are other options for these types of entertainment, but there is nothing else like MK, Epcot, the Studios, and AK.

I don't have a problem with reducing the numbers of some of the shows, if attendance isn't justifying having them staged so many times each and everyday. Just please put out a schedule in advance, so guests can plan around the shows, if they want to see them. They can still add more, if the crowds warrant it, but at least guests who really want to see the shows can plan around the possibility/probability of the reduced shows.

Same with the restaurants, if the business isn't there, I am not against consolidating some of the services, but make sure it is announced promptly.

I would like to see better communication with the guests. Educate the CMs, especially CRO and the people manning the phones for the PSs as to the changes, so they can answer questions and help guests with alternative planning.

How about cutting back on some other projects through other divisions of the company, if it is drawing money from the areas that are the profit makers, like the parks used to be.

How about a few promotions on tickets, like Universal does. Buy one day, get another free. Buy a 6 day hopper, get a 7th day free. An extra 90 days added to annual passes, or something similar. It may mean a short-term loss on ticket sales, but if people are coming to the parks, they will be likely to spend on food, souvenirs, even resort stays, if they feel they are getting a 'deal' on tickets.

Bring back a few more discounts for AP and DC members like there were in the past. Include resort guests in some of the discounts. Losing 10% or 15% on a family of five's meal is better than having them eat off-site. There are some decent resort discounts right now for select groups, but they have to be good enough and wide enough to compete with the off-site hotels. Cut some rates to the break-even point on the resorts for a limited time, or offer a package that truly gives a discount on the resort and tickets. Most of the time, we can book separately for better rates. Change that.

Let's see the big-wigs cut back on their salaries and perks for a little while to show that they are willing to do their part, just as they are asking the CMs to do with their reduced hours, and the guests to do with their reduced services.

I really, really want to come to WDW -I understand there must be some cut-backs, but just offer me a few little perks to entice me and to let me know that you really want my business, and me and my dollars are yours, WDW!

These are just a few ideas - off the top of my head.

YoHo

10-23-2001, 12:00 PM

I don't know that WDW is doing it, but last month DISNEYLAND and DCa were giving you a free day on the 4 day and the 7 day hopper passes (I think that was the length of the passes.
Meaning you got a 5 or 8 day pass.

Certainly WDW could do this as well and it would encourage longer hotel stays.
MY concern is whether that's the way most people buy their tickets.
I myself tend to do LOS tickets since they are cheaper and more convient.

hopemax

10-23-2001, 12:05 PM

I also wouldn't have a problem if a park was closed one day a week as long as what was open was operating under a regular schedule. I know enough about the history of the company to know that they did that regularly before. Plus if the parks that are open are operating in a normal manner you feel like you are getting what you paid for, instead of feeling that you are paying for things that aren't operating and being forced into a schedule (have to be at spot X at 1 PM, because it's your only opportunity to watch show A."

Now backing up for a sec...

Even with these changes though, when someone looks at the whole big view of WDW, I cannot fathom how anyone would say that is has been reduced to the level of simply being an amusement

No, it hasn't dropped that far. But there are other places than WDW that exude "magic" and "atmosphere." They may not be theme parks, but not all of my vacations need to be theme park vacations. WDW isn't being compared to things like Six Flags, but to trips to the Tokyo Disney Resort, a 3-week vacation touring the British Isles, a Meditteranean cruise, a tour of the national parks in the Southwest, etc. And while you may personally decide that those things aren't your cup of tea as much as WDW is, I hope that it is recognized that those things could lead to as fabulous a vacation as WDW, so if a person were to choose those vacations it would be logical and understandable instead of, "How could anyone possibly choose ____ over WDW right now."

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 12:09 PM

YoHo,
They can still offer a better rate on the LOS for longer stays. For example, for 7 day resort stay, pay current LOS rate for 5 or 6 days, get the extra days free, etc. Or offer a certain % discount on LOS pass rates for a certain # of booked days.

TXDeb

10-23-2001, 12:18 PM

I think I also prefer the idea of closing each park for one full day a week, rather than reducing the operating schedules of every park, everyday. I like having the parks open at night, since I have teens, who tend to prefer hitting the parks later anyway. Operating a full schedule 6 days a week, would be a lot less confusing to guests, then what they have planned now.

DC7800

10-23-2001, 02:04 PM

if we can identify changes which would be more acceptable, then maybe the Disney lurkers around here might just consider them...

For starters, Disney could diffuse at least some of the complaints and criticism by not making such draconian changes so abruptly. From what I gather, some people showed up for EE Sunday morning only to find it cancelled; others got the notice in their WDW hotel rooms Saturday evening. I can understand why these guests, and those with trips planned within the next few weeks, would feel like the rug had been pulled out from under them, so to speak. Give us some advance notice next time, and if the EE changes are temporary, this should be announced. Disney doesn't owe us an explanation for everything they do, but most people (whethor they approve or abhor the actions) understand why some adjustments may be necessary in these unusual times. So, if we were certain these "changes" were only temporary, it would change the whole picture Disney has conveyed with EE's termination. Had these changes been handled more "diplomatically", for lack of a better word, there would have been less of a "firestorm" of guest complaints.

In addition, it wasn't really necessary to completely stop all Early-Entry privileges. The program - and expenses - could be reduced by having fewer EE days per week (how about 4 - one for each park?), or by opening a limited number of attractions for that first hour. For instance, open just Main Street and Fantasyland for MK's EE day. Now, before anyone objects to that, it's not my favorite idea either, but it sure beats no EE at all, and would in fact give guests a chance to take-in typically busy, slow-moving attractions. Epcot's Future World should immediately be restored to a 9 a.m. opening, even if the only things "open" are Spaceship Earth and Innoventions. In all cases, redirect the Character Caravan to the EE park - maybe part of some sort of "festive" atmosphere for guests who show up early - "Breakfast with Mickey", or something (give out donuts, maybe coffee, etc). The end result is an "EE" without opening up the whole park (so the financial savings are still there).

I don't mind the 9 a.m. opening at AK, because if Epcot's hours are restored, all the parks would at least have the same schedule. Actually, the change that bothers me most is not EE, but Epcot's late opening and early closing. What's really unfortunate is that Future World actually doesn't close at 7 as reported - Spaceship Earth, Test Track, and (parts of?) Innoventions remain open. Now, the Living Seas I believe already closed at 7, and JIYI is shuttered, so the only real "changes" are closing The land, U of E, and WOL early. Still, Disney is no doubt hounded by critcism for closing Future World early! This situation, and the late opening, can (and should) be quickly remedied (at minimal cost). I don't like attractions which open late or close earlier than the rest of the park, but I could accept "groups" of attractions (as in FW) closing together in exchange for enjoying the rest of Epcot during a "normal" 9-9 schedule.

LoDivaLoca

10-23-2001, 10:34 PM

JEEEEEEZ!!!!

I just read the whole list of changes/cut-backs....NO WONDER EVERYONE'S COMPLAINING!!! I was sooooo looking forward to my trip next month, and trust me, I still am - but JEEEEEZ! Mannequins is closed too!!!???? MY God, the next update we'll get is that Magic Kingdom itself is closed. I'm sorry, I can't believe they're hurting THIS bad.....

Bob O

10-23-2001, 11:20 PM

I think the last thing wdw should have done to improve attendance/profitability was to elminate EE. That is a great perk to have people stay on site,escpecially with reduced operating hours its even more important.
To improve attendance they need to offer more and not just cut everything!!! Offer extra fastpasses to onsite guests to fill up hotel rooms, if anything market a improved EE program rather then elimnate it. Offer deals that if you stay on site lets say for 3 days you get a free day at the park. Things like this will encorage guests to stay on site and if people feel they are getting more value they may be less upset over the cutbacks made and may use that as a justification to spend more on food/trinkets etc.
Other resorts are offering inducements to gain attendance and not just cutting everything. What good is a cheaper room if the hours are reduced greatly and so are the attractions/shows in the parks.

JeffJewell

10-24-2001, 08:57 AM

would BK be enough to offset no EE and/or reduced hours and shows ...my first reaction is, it depends on precisely what Beasty Kingdom ends up being (I personally doubt the addition of the PhilharMagic will have, on its own, the kind of drawing power needed to entice guests into Disney as opposed to another theme park or resort). If Beastly Kingdom is a cool e-ride with knock-down drag-out theming, and there are a couple support rides or shows in the area, well, that might just be enough to get some people moving and moving right away.

Of course, the problem with this is that by the time Beastly Kingdom could get built, attendance will dictate that AK's hours will be from 10:15 to 10:45 on alternate Thursdays.

Chad, you speak of BK "offsetting" the lack of EE and other things. You've also pointed out, in other threads, in what sounds like a defense of some Disney policies, that Disney is a business and has responsibilities to stockholders.

Disney's problem as a business is _right now_ they can't get people in their resorts. I agree that they have a responsibility to stockholders, and I further believe that they have muffed that responsibility by cutting one of the things that entices regulars to travel this time of year, and that entices guests to stay on-site instead of off-site.

Even if BK is an "acceptable" trade, in the minds of particular individuals (and this would be completely speculative personal preference: we don't know what BK is and, by you're own standards, we really can't comment on the experience it offers until we see it for ourselves), it does not change the reality that Disney needs heads in beds right now, not two years from now when BK might open. It also does not change the fact that, at this point, some of Disney's booking problems are a direct result of their own toying around with EE.

Jeff

hopemax

10-24-2001, 12:45 PM

I don't think expansion/EE are an even trade. Any serious expansion plans would be 3-5 years away from opening. It helps with getting people to see the value in a WDW vacation...in 3 to 5 years.

EE helps NOW!

With everything going on in the world, the customers we are expected to graciously accept less than the status quo, well... the shareholders can do it too. So if the company can expand and operate EE while staying in the black, then they should do it, and quit worrying about profits declining sharply vs. increasing or declining not so much.

I have no patience right now for whining that profits fell ____ and how awful that is. Did they make any money? Be happy about that. If the customers are happy and want to return the profits will return as a result.

YoHo

10-24-2001, 12:47 PM

The problem is that there is no status Quo.

LISTEN TO ME!

according to every report I've read WDW is DEAD, LACKING IN CROWDS. NO ONE THERE!! for most of the week.

They Are ONLY busy on the WEEKENDS.

Why does EE even matter when the attendence is like that?

hopemax

10-24-2001, 12:55 PM

If it's busy on the weekends, wouldn't EE be useful on the weekends?

YoHo

10-24-2001, 12:57 PM

I'll grant you that. But maybe the pros and cons of keeping it for the weekend say no. I'm not sure about that. I don't have ALL the facts, just some of them.

JeffJewell

10-24-2001, 01:05 PM

Why does EE even matter when the attendence is like that ...because EE provides extra "park hours" in a day, during a time of year when earlier closing hours limit the amount of available park time. Also, because EE is a perq for choosing to stay in a Disney resort, as opposed to an off-site resort.

Whatever the status quo, or lack thereof, the elimination of EE is going to have the effect that some people who might have travelled in the near future, will wait, instead. It will also have the effect of giving the traveller who going on vacation now, come hell or high water, one fewer reason to choose a Disney resort.

In other words, eliminating EE can _only_ result in fewer still hotel bookings in the near future.

Jeff

PS: Of course, you could argue that there could be another question; whether or not Disney's management feels that shuttering a percentage of resorts and ending discounts and perqs on the rest will maximize the per guest spending numbers, therefore triggering another set of executive bonuses, and conclude that eliminating EE to reduce near future resort bookings is a brilliant plan on the part of those executives...

Carl

10-24-2001, 01:20 PM

I had increased my stay from my usual 4-5 days stay to 7 days in 2002. I would NEVER have increased my stay knowing that all those cuts were coming. My reason: I wanted the extra days to be able to take the time to finally enjoy all the live entertainment offered in World Showcase. This is also the reason I booked an Epcot resort. Well, it appears that almost ALL the live entertainment has been canceled! So, why in the world would I add 2 days to my vacation to watch something which isn't there anymore? And why stay at an Epcot resort when nothing is going on at Epcot?

YoHo

10-24-2001, 01:29 PM

So, Jeff, DIsney should leave EE alone so that its onsite guests have an extra hour to twiddle their thumbs since they rode every ride and saw every show already?
I could understand leaving it for the weekends, but I just don't understand why this is a valuable perk given the attendence or lack there of.

I agree with what I've seen a number of people post on a number of threads. I stay onsite, because of the Atmosphere and the fact that its in Disney. EE was never an important perk and I have to wonder if we on the DIS are more sensative to this then the rest of the world. We will soon find out.

All Aboard

10-24-2001, 01:41 PM

Actually YoHo, WDW should have left at a bare minimum Saturday MK EE since the weekends have been PACKED lately. With the rumored elimination of Spectro (which has only been running on Saturdays - and TWICE each Saturday due to heavy crowds) it seems like WDW is making cuts with only expense (not guest consideration) in mind.

Sat MK EE was very well attended Sep 22, Sep 29 & Oct 6 - I can tell you that from first hand experience. I've read the same concerning Oct 13th.

When we checked in at the All Stars on Sep 21 & Oct 5, I asked other guests in line and in the food court and around the pool where they were from. A large number were from in-state. Jax, Tampa, South Florida. They were taking advantage of low rates. These guests are being impacted by the loss of EE.

Here's what they were thinking. Hmmm, I was there three weekends ago - boy was the place packed. I wonder if we should go this weekend? Hmmm, no EE, no spectro, Epcot closes when? Nah, I'll just wait till all this is over.

JeffJewell

10-24-2001, 02:02 PM

So Jeff, DIsney should leave EE alone so that its onsite guests have an extra hour to twiddle their thumbs since they rode every ride and saw every show already ...I'm sorry, but I simply completely disagree with you about this one. There has always been something to do at Disney; so you hit the EE park at 7:30, then you go to another park later. EE extends the length of the Disney day by an hour and a half (particularly with AK's backed-up opening).

The only thumb-twiddling going on will in the resort without EE, trying to keep the kids quiet until Magic Kingdom opens two hours from now (and Disney cancelled your resort's character breakfast)...

Perhaps gcurling's more personal assessment describes the picture I fear these cuts will paint:I was there three weekends ago - boy was the place packed. I wonder if we should go this weekend? Hmmm, no EE, no spectro, Epcot closes when? Nah, I'll just wait till all this is over That's just a bad impression to give your customers, if you really need to get them back in the resorts ASAP.

Jeff

hopemax

10-24-2001, 02:15 PM

But Disney CANNOT decide to operate in the red just to please its customers. Disney has an obligation to be as profitable as possible to its shareholders...I

I'm not saying Disney should operating in the red to please it's customers. In fact I said that Disney shouldn't make choices that would put them in the red. But what does being as profitable as possible to it's shareholders mean?

Does it mean making decisions that make this one year as profitable as possible but with a cliff at the end of 3 years? Or does it mean making decisions that maximize profits over multi-year periods?

I firmly believe that Disney's decisions are killing their customer base, thus affecting their income and how does that fit into fulfilling their "obligation to shareholders?"

I'm not suggesting an end to capitalism, just a different strategy to reaching the goal given the upheaval everyone is facing. It's the whole catching "more flies with honey" scenario. Right now I feel like I'm being told in a gruff voice, "take it or leave it, this guy needs the money." Well don't be surprised if people choose "leave it." And I don't think it's in the best interest of the shareholders for their customers to get in the habit of choosing something else, they may stumble upon one that they like even better.

YoHo

10-24-2001, 03:21 PM

Jeff, extending the length of the Disney day would only be true if the Parks were the only Disney expireance there. You and I both know that that isn't true. There are plenty of other things to do around the world. I personally am not a morning person so I understand this affects me far less. Even so, I think it underrates the rest of the resort to suggest that the only real Disney expireance is in the park.

At the Same time, I fully understand gcurlings positions. Personally, I've seena couple post suggesting Spectro is still a go, so that's one less thing.

The thing of it is, gcurling while he may be typical of who is going to WDW RIGHT NOW, is not a typical WDW guest.Relativly speaking, Disney charged just as much for the poly in 1989 before EE as they do now and I felt it was worth every penny. They in essence were giving us a perk for free (what a concept huh?) I'm sad to see it go, but I fail to understand all the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

JeffJewell

10-24-2001, 04:13 PM

Jeff, extending the length of the Disney day would only be true if the Parks were the only Disney expireance there. You and I both know that that isn't true. ...even though I might agree with that, I'm not cancelling my December trip, in any case. Just because we're all nuts that are going anyway (actually, I'm starting to feel more and more alone in maintaining my reservations) doesn't mean that the market at large sees the non-park subtleties that we see (And even so, come on, without EE, how much is there really to do at that time of morning?). All I'm saying is, there will be families out there who are basically going to erase 7:30-9:00 off of every day of their vacation schedules (My in-laws, believe it or not, arrived in Orlando the first day without EE. With nothing else to do at the All Stars that time of morning, they were free to use the extra time to go off-site for breakfast). Bad time for that.They in essence were giving us a perk for free (what a concept huh?) Feel free to chalk this up to negativity, but I believe the Surprise Mornings had little to do with "giving for free" and were instead created mostly to ensure a Disney exclusive benefit for the Moderates and Values to better compete with cheaper still off-site hotels, and they even worked, for that purpose. To get rid of that competitive advantage is a mistake, in the battle for the small pool of still travelling customers.

I humbly maintain that this is the wrong cut at the wrong time, and it's a cut that can only affect resort bookings negatively.

Jeff

hopemax

10-24-2001, 05:19 PM

All I'm saying is, there will be families out there who are basically going to erase 7:30-9:00 off of every day of their vacation schedules (My in-laws, believe it or not, arrived in Orlando the first day without EE. With nothing else to do at the All Stars that time of morning, they were free to use the extra time to go off-site for breakfast). Bad time for that.

I wondered about this too. We would use EE 3 times over our 10 day trip, once for each park. However we would take advantage of buses running early to deliver EE guests to the parks to use as transportation to the other hotels for breakfast. If it was EE at the Magic Kingdom, we'd go eat at Chef Mickey's, 1900 Park Fair or Minnie's (however it's spelled) breakfast at the Poly. EE at MGM, we'd take the boat to the Yacht & Beach for Cape May. Now the options, since we normally stay at PO-Riverside ar Boatwrights (but 3 bad service episodes out of 3 times turns off that one) so that leaves the food court. The end result is that instead of the $15 I was spending on breakfast, I'm only spending $5 or so. My other choice is to bring breakfast food from home with me and eat in the room, and then Disney looses the whole $15.

YoHo

10-24-2001, 05:40 PM

There is no confirmation on the bus schedule yet.
Disney has commited to at least some PS at in park establishments for times before the park actually opens, so they may have transportation running.
Personally I figure if they leave Early PS intact for the lieks of Cinderella's, half of the upset people will be happy.

Lesley

10-26-2001, 01:23 AM

I was not a frequent WDW visitor prior to ee. It was ee that was at least partially responsible for getting me to stay on-site back in 1994....and what helped to convince me to never stay off-property again while visiting WDW. And if I wasn't hooked on staying on site I wouldn't have joined DVC... Do you get the picture? The concept of ee has encouraged me to give Disney a whole lot more of my money than I might have otherwise.

While, yes, there are other on-property advantages, ee was a really huge one...one that was a decision maker for me and my dh. And we've come to love it! Even being usually late risers, we would drag our butts out of bed most mornings at WDW because that early morning, empty park atmosphere was so wonderful. And from recent reports it seems like at least on the weekends you aren't going to find the parks empty.

Another concern about the park hour cuts and elimination of ee is that there really isn't much to do before 9am (well, admittedly...we'll sleep!) or in the evenings. Many of the recreational activities are also going on during the day. I'm kind of irked that when my ds takes his pirate cruise in Jan (if that still happens) it will take out of our limited park time. Before the elimination of ee I wouldn't have thought twice about it. Also with small kids we liked to go back to the resort in the afternoon...maybe swim, etc...But after getting a late start we probably won't get a chance to do this. And I'm guessing that in January it will be a bit cold to swim after dark.

Oh well, enough complaining...I still think this was a really bad move, not just for the time being but for the future of WDW. There are going to be a lot of unhappy guests who booked with promises of ee mornings and discover upon arrival that they're gone....nevermind the ones cancelling already.