Troubles at Disneyland....

[roymccoy]

I have one question....What happened to Disneyland??? I haven't been to the old girl in awhile but when me and the family went yesterday, we were SHOCKED. There are so many rides and attractions that are either closed or that are "just not there" anymore. We walked through Tomorrowland and couldn't believe how they ruined it. It looks like a closed up carnival. No Rocket Rods. No People Mover. No Circlevision. No Submarines. No Character Shop.
And what IS there is nothing to write home about...what is Innoventions?? Looks like a cheap space filler to me. What's that annoying "thing" that spins in the middle and plays music every now and then? Has anyone else noticed that it's made on the exact mechanism that was the Rocket Jets? Even goes up and down randomly like the individual cars did. Talk about cheap. Do these imagineers shop at garage sales?? I bet they use those "telephone cable spools" for coffee tables
in their houses. Why didn't they just leave Tomorrowland alone?? They took what I consider the best land in the park and absolutely gutted it. You think $43 is too much for California Adventure?? Explain to me why it's not too much for Disneyland? Where is Country Bear Jamboree? Where is Big Thunder Ranch? Where are the Keel Boats? Why is the restaurant accross from the Plaza Inn still empty? Where is the Skyway? As far as I can tell, only ONE ride has been added to all of this butchery...Indiana Jones. Big Deal...one ride. (You can't count putting cardboard cut-outs and lights in an old ride). Why are they selling hot dogs where you used to ride the Motorboats? Is that supposed to be a good trade-off?

Why are they still charging (and we are still paying) $43 for far less stuff? Disneyland looks like a ghost town. There are big areas with just nothing in them. The Subs, The Ranch, Tomorrowland, The Motorboat grotto, old Autopia, etc. Let's face it, Disneyland is a shell of it's past glory. If any executives want to know why attendance is down, go look around. There was MUCH more to do at Disneyland 10 years ago then there is now. I'm afraid they may be on a slippery slope. They don't seem to know what's wrong. They can't see that there is simply not enough to do there anymore. The "magic thing" only can go so far. People will cut Disney a little slack because of all the good memories they have about the place, but they won't keep coming and paying for "Disney-Lite" forever. I love Disneyland and it hurts me to see it gutted like that. I heard people saying "Is that all there is to do?" and "I remember that there was more somewhere." Yes, there is more somewhere...it's in storage on the backlot or on E-bay.

Roy :-(

[Douglas Dubh]

"You think $43 is too much for California Adventure?? Explain to me why it's not too much for Disneyland?"

Disneyland has more rides and attractions than any other Disney park. While they are down a few rides from there peak, there are still more attractions than you can do in one day.

"There are big areas with just nothing in them. The Subs, The Ranch, Tomorrowland, The Motorboat grotto, old Autopia, etc. Let's face it, Disneyland is a shell of it's past glory."

You've got a point about most of that, but why is Autopia in there? Having one long Autopia is better than having two short ones, and the Fantasyland side was almost never opened.

"There was MUCH more to do at Disneyland 10 years ago then there is now."

No there isn't. New Tomorrowland was a bust, and they're down attractions from 1995, but they're definitely up from 1991.

[WDW2002]

From your post, it is obvious that you hadn't been to Disneyland in quite a long time. The Motor Boats have been gone for years, I have to say mid 80's. Autopia, is not gone, they combined the two tracks into one. The Country Bears just closed early last month, to a big disapointment for alot of us. The Subs, well dispite all the rumors I think this one was closed due in part to the new "disabilities act." The same for the skyway.

Yes, Disneyland has closed some attractions and YES tomorrow land is a waste of space and needs a major overhall. But even so, most of us would agree that Disneyland is still the best bet for a "family" Theme/Amusement Park.

[DVC95-BW]

Rocket Rods replace the People Mover... I'm not sure if it is shut down permanently, but I do know that each time I've been to Disneyland it has been broken down more than open. I think Rocket Rods is one of those Test Track unreliable rides (but Test Track was worth fixing).

Tomorrowland has always been a challenge for Disney... and for me, it is the most "concrete" (at all the parks globally) and the least magical.

[WDW2002]

The Rocket Rods are indeed part of yesterdayland. I was hoping they would fix the problem and reintroduce them this past spring, as was originally planned but as spring turned into summer Disney pulled the Rods.

[raidermatt]

Roy- I think they had to reduce the number of visitors in Tomorrowland because of complaints about a lack of drinking fountains in the area...

;)

Seriously though, you make some good points. Tomorrowland is very weak right now. I like it better when MK and DL don't just copy each others rides, but at this point, Buzz Lightyear and the Alien Encounter would help a lot. Carsousel of Progress would also help. But even better would be a few original rides...

As others have said, the new Autopia is at least as good as the old.

Innoventions IS awful.

We were there about a week before the bears closed, and I also am not happy about it. But the plan is to replace it with a dark Pooh ride (I think like MK), so the number of attractions eventually will be the same.

I think the other areas of the park are holding up well though...

We had plenty to do for over 2 days, but then again it was Summer and we enjoy pretty much every attraction. Except Innoventions. Did I mention it was awful?

[SophisMom]

OK I just posted above about the same thing in an above post...maybe because I am a local....I was just a bit dissapointed as well. But my daughter had fun so that is what counts. Oh and the park closed at 8pm..WAY to early! But they were kind enough to leave Main Street open an extra hour so we could spend the REST of our money! :rolleyes:

[roymccoy]

That was funny about the drinking fountains....

Roy :-)

[roymccoy]

Could you please enlighten me on how there are MORE rides now then in 1991?? Name one NEW ride. (Not including Indiana Jones).
All I see is less for your money now. Tomorrowland used to be THE place in Disneyland. Journey into Innerspace, Mission to Mars, America Sings, Rocket Jets, Circlevision, PeopleMover, Skyway, Space Place Food Court, Character Shop with those "neat phones",
the band that came up in the stage, the Submarines. Wow....just thinking about it makes me really sad. What's left? Innoventions and Star Tours. I hate to play a broken record but you want to know who I think is responsible for the decline? Paul Pressler.
Here's a list of Presslers babies:
Toon Town - First "new land" in 20 years. Mostly cardboard cut-outs and painted plywood.
Light Magic - Replacement for Electrical Parade. Terrible.
Tomorrowland "make-over" - nuff said.
California Adventure - nuff said.

This guy is a L O S E R. Put my 2 year old daughter in charge and she would understand the "magic" better. Put a well-trained chimp in charge and we could boost attendance!! You can go right on and tell me how everything is just "hunkie-dorry" but I'm afraid it might be too late. Disney is like the Government. Once they take something away, you can bet you'll never get it back!

Hope I'm wrong. Bet I'm not.

Roy :-(

P.S. The monkey wouldn't have to be that well-trained.

[princessKT]

Things have changed, but they can also get better. I don't think we should be calling the people in charge names because they've had a lack of creativity; not everyone is Walt Disney. There are things on the way that will make it fantastic again. I still love Disneyland despite the changes, and I think everyone on this board can say the same thing -- that's why we're here.

[greyno]

Wow! I guess I never thought I'd read so much DL bashing on this particular part of the DIS boards. I, for one, am a loyal DL fan and I love that park more than any of the others. Funny thing about the Rocket Rods. People complained about and essentially stopped riding the People Mover so Disney attempts to use the space with a new ride. I am no Imagineer, but I don't see that they had oodles of options when it came time to decide how to best use the ol' People Mover track. So, they design the Rocket Rods to use that space, and guess what? People still complained. Don't get me wrong--the ride was no Indiana Jones or Space Mountain. But not every ride is. There were also structural/engineering problems which added to the Rocket Rods short-lived life in Tomorrowland. Okay, so Disney gets a slap on the hands for poor planning and they take a huge loss for spending the money on a big loser.
As for the Skyway--it doesn't exist at WDW either. And Innoventions? It sucks big time at WDW, too.
They probably haven't opened tons of new rides at DL lately because of the recent addition of DCA. I agree that DCA is not DL, but it is alright if you take it for what it is. If you are expecting it to be DL, of course you will be disappointed! But there are some decent attractions and fun rides there, too.
I guess I am a loyal DL fan so I do take offense at the DL bashing. It seems people on here rave about WDW and bash DL every chance they get. I'm sorry, but I don't see WDW adding new rides left and right as you seem to expect them to do at DL.
I guess the last part of my rant is that the park is what you make of it. If you don't find magic there, fine. Go to Magic Mountain. Go to your local amusement park. Go to Knott's Berry Farm. See how much magic you find there. Perhaps for your money, these types of places give you the most bang for your buck. Great. Spend your money there and leave DL to those of us who DO appreciate it (in good times & in bad times, in sickness & in health).
(Didn't mean for this to be a personal attack and hope you didn't take it that way. Just my meager attempt to defend the DL that I love.)

[roymccoy]

I have no problem with defending Disneyland. I grew up there. I feel I defend Disneyland by pointing out the fact that the trend in the last 10 years has been to remove rides and not add new ones. I am merely pointing out the FACT that Tomorrowland used to be great and now it isn't. I am merely pointing out that, although we are Disney loyalists and we would probably go no matter what, I am hearing from the "civillians" that they feel Disneyland has really slipped over the years. If we don't complain about it, nothing will be done about it. My dad used to always say "The squeaky wheel (or mouse) gets the most grease." I know that you can still go to Disneyland and have a good time. I'm just saying that there used to be MUCH more to do there and the trend seems to be to close rides and not to add new ones. I would love for someone to answer me one question: (This will be great for all you question "cut and pasters")

Why is Disney charging more money now for admission even though there is less to do?

When Disney opened Indiana Jones, I remember that ticket prices went up a couple of bucks. The new ride was given as the reason for the increase. They said with the addition of Indiana Jones they needed to raise prices to offset the construction and operating costs but, there was now a great new ride at Disneyland. I think that the increase was totally justified. I had no problem with it. What I DO have a problem with is that there are no price reductions when they take em' out! Doesn't that make sense? If they have to raise em' to put em' in, shouldn't they get to lower them if they take em' out? I'm not stupid and I know that they would NEVER lower prices, I'm just pointing out that they will take out as many rides as we will put up with. They will stop when they think it's hurting attendance more than it's saving on the closed rides. Why do you think that they are hurrying so many new rides into DCA? Is it because everything is running great and everyone loves the place? No complaints? Nope...it's because people complained and spoke up and didn't just walk in there with "Disney Magic" in their eyes and let them get away with it.

The management is going to really push the limits of "The Magic." They are going to push it right to the breaking point and when they feel that they have went overboard, they will do what they need to fix things. Well, they're going overboard at Disneyland.

Roy :-)

[WDW2002]

Other then Tomorrowland (which I think we have ALL agreed is a waste of space and needs some major work) I don't see that Disneyland has a LOT less to do. I guess it all depends on what you go to Disneyland looking for.
You mentioned toontown. This is a great place if you have younger kids or want to meet the Fab 5. Growing up in the 70's - 80's I do not remember characters roaming around the park for me to meet. Story telling, Animazement, Sword in the Stone ceremony.
Rides generally close do to disrepair or lack of guests. Or in some cases to update or replace with a new ride. Disneyland has a limited space in which to expand with new rides. I think it is a give and take. They take away some rides and then they give you something else. Give them time.

[roymccoy]

that they've taken away some rides...but I've not seen a lot of "putting something in it's place."
If the space is so limited at Disneyland, why is there so much of it empty or abandoned. You might think that they have TOO MUCH space by looking around some sections of Disneyland lately.

I was concentrating on Tomorrowland but I can go on. What is being built over at the ranch area? Looks pretty abandoned to me. Used to be a farm, a restaurant, a petting zoo and a Hunchback show there...now there's nothing.....empty space.

How about Critter Country?? Ain't a whole lot of Critter's there now, would you say?

What about the area over where the Motorboats use to be? Looks like a whole lot of nothing now! It's a pretty big area for a hot dog stand.

Submarine Lagoon? Looks empty to me.

My point is that these areas were all part of your Disney admission at one time. And it didn't cost $43 when they were. People say that they add rides and they take away rides. Wrong. They take away rides. They haven't gotten around to the "add rides" part. That comes when we all complain enough!

Roy :-)

[WDW2002]

What do you suggest ?? You seem to be good at pointing out the things that are now gone, but what about your suggestions for replacements??

The Subs are gone, I would love to see a new ride in there that would attract new riders, suggestions have been made to make it a Little Mermaid Ride (which would have been SUPER easy and inexpensiveish) & rumors were abound that they were making it is a Atlantis Ride (even before the movie).

The motor boat area, well I must admitt when we were there in '96 the first time since they removed them I didn't even realize they weren't there. It took a trip to Yesterdayland.com to realize that they weren't there anymore. I for one don't miss them but did enjoy them while they were there. I am not sure what to suggest to put there. The skyway, another one I don't personally miss, it was really a mode of transportation from Fantasyland to Tomrorwland, one that could be walked faster. We don't have these anymore but since its removal we do have animazement and characters in the parks. (this is what I meant by give and take).

The space that is now used for "partys" that was once a The Ranch and Huntback Festival Area could deffiently be used for something. This area could be used to add attraction(s) to either fantasyland or Frontierland. My suggestion would be to be the Pooh ride here and give us back the bears, an updated version or the original.

Okay now the thing in Disneyland that needs some MAJOR work is Tomorrowland. My suggestions for this. Update Star Tours. Find a way to fix the Rocket Rods. Remove the Arcade (the top floor is empty anyway) and put something in there maybe something simular to 'Soarin (at DCA). Space Mountain, would be better if they fixed it so the music worked ALL the time not just occasionally. Like someone else suggested, even bringing in Buzz Lightyear or something would be an improvement.

But remember "just as long as there is imagination left in the world, Disneyland will never be complete."




America Sings was (eventually) replaced by Innovention and the "guts" went to Splash Mountain (a new ride). I will agree with some that this is a waste but if you are into this type of this Virtual Reality and Techno Stuff, you might think this is a great area.

[roymccoy]

You have some good ideas. I would love to see them all. I guess what I am trying to say in a nutshell is that the management that controls Disney now will lower the bar as low as they can and still get away with it. People called them on DCA and now they are having to scramble to fix it. If people wouldn't have complained with their voices and their money the management would have never added rides so quickly. Personally, I think that DCA's failure shocked the head office BECAUSE they were getting away with so much at Disneyland.

You asked me for what my ideas are to fix the problems, instead of just pointing out the problems. I guess I would just say this...Don't remove a ride or attraction UNTIL you have something better to put in it's place. Don't throw in a cheap ride just to get the ride count up. Don't think that all you have to do is "gussy-up" an old ride and expect that to be enough. Don't talk about how space is limited at Disneyland, so tough decisions must be made when there's more abandoned real estate in Disneyland than there is in downtown Kabul.

I think I made the point I was trying to make. I appreciate all of your points. I just feel a little "cheated" at Disneyland lately...

Roy :-)

[Diva of Dragons]

Hi All!
I just wanted to say...first, I go to DL A LOT and I am almost always the first to jump its defense in most situations. However, I really have to agree with you, roymccoy, at the moment. I have been to DL 3 times in the last week (more than normal), basically to get a good look at the HM Holiday makeover....which I LOVE! BUT......as I walked around there, I thought..."Thank goodness I didn't pay a day's admission to come here this week!"
Seriously, The list of attractions that are down is ridiculous: Tea Cups, Alice, Bears (forever), Fantasmic (until June!!), the obviously huge lack of anything to do in Tomorrowland etc... PLUS, the stinkin' Matterhorn has been down for at least 2-3 weeks. It was down for at least 2-3 months at the beginning of the year! What's up with that? To top it off, they are doing other construction(?) in the park, especially in Adventureland and the walkway between it and Frontierland. Every time you turn around you run into one of those lovely "hospital green" barriers. ....Anyway, as a local, these things are minor inconveniences. As a tourist, I think I would be very disappointed. JMHO!:)

[roymccoy]

I didn't even go into the refurbishment that is going on right now. I think they've closed a little too much all at once. If this is your first trip or vacation to Disneyland, I think that I would wait until at least a few more rides are open. It's just not worth the $43 bucks right now. Those green barriers really narrow down the walkways and compact the crowds down to shoulder to shoulder. The knee jerk reaction to refurbishment is to say "at least they're fixing up the rides" but a friend of mine who works in the maintenance department said that they are closing rides that are only getting a little touch-up paint or electrical work...stuff they used to just do at night. He also said that they are closing things that aren't even being worked on yet, just waiting for a crew to get to it. (Kind of like a contractor starting 4 jobs and then working on one at a time.) I wonder how much of this is just to save the money of operating the ride.

Roy :-)

[WDW2002]

"I guess I would just say this...Don't remove a ride or attraction UNTIL you have something better to put in it's place." - roymccoy

Think about it, though. How can they do that? They closed the bears much to my dismay and are (eventually) goin gto replace it with the Pooh Bear ride, like at WDW. How could they possibly put this ride in BEFORE they closed the Bears if they are going to use the same area/building to do so?? Along with this, I do agree, they should have kept the Bears open until they at least had the "guts" of the ride ready to put in. This way they would at least shorten the length of time before pooh opens, I believe not until Spring 2003?

As for them "scrambling" to put more rides/attractions in at DCA because we complained. I think that yes this is true but some of the changes they are putting in were to already happen, even before they DCA opened its doors. I believe the tower of terror ride was already on the agenda before DCA opened. I also believe Millionare was in the works.

I would agree 110% with Diva on the refurbs, why so many at once?? We rescheduled our trip in October because of all the refurbs (remember, they always list these on their site).

As for the construction in adventure land, I do believe they are putting in the magic carpet ride like they did earlier at WDW-MK.

How about this for a solution, Disneyland closes completely for a few months every year (say October - Thanksgiving & then January - April) when the locals are the ones in the park and a lot of vacationers don't visit to do all the refurb and maintenence?? Close an entire land / area so you don't have to deal with the construction. You can't complain about the need for maintenence and then complain that things are closed fro them to do the maintenence. Or complain that they need to add rides and attractions and then complain about the construction.

[Uncle Buck]

The volume of rehabs in Fantasyland is due to the complete removal and replacement of the pavement in Fantasyland. While they are cutting off access to rides, they are doing full rehabs. I've seen pictures recently of the tea cups stripped all the way down to the turntable. The coming week is the transition from one section to the next. It will be interesting to see if any of the rides in that area reopen early. Next Saturday, Mr. Toad goes down as well as others in the area.

[Douglas Dubh]

"Hey douglas dubh....
Could you please enlighten me on how there are MORE rides now then in 1991?? Name one NEW ride. (Not including Indiana Jones). "

Why wouldn't I include Indiana Jones? It's a new ride that wasn't there in 91, right? But besides that, they opened Toontown in 93 and added Fantasmic in 92.

Attractions closed since 91: Mission to Mars, Motor Boat Cruise, Skyway, PeopleMover, Big Thunder Ranch, Submarine Voyage, Rocket Rods, and Country Bear Playhouse. Total: 8.

Attractions opened since 91: Fantasmic!, Mickey's House, Minnie's House, Goofy's Bounce House, Donald's Boat, Gadget's Go Coaster, Jolly Trolley, Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin, Indiana Jones, Rocket Rods, Innoventions. Total: 11.

That's plus 3.

[roymccoy]

Uh....WHAT?? +3 rides since 1991?? Could you come do my taxes please?? You could creatively save me a ton of dough!
Let's go over your list. New rides - Mickey's House, Minnie's House, Goofy's Bounce House, Donald's Boat, Jolley Trolley. Let me get this straight....you consider these rides? You're cool with them replacing the Submarines, People Mover, The Ranch, Skyway, Country Bear, etc?? These are bad carnival rides. The "Jolley Trolley" goes about 100 feet in a circle. Cartoon Spin almost killed a kid. Mickey and Minnies Houses would look good at the Orange County Fair. (4 coupons)
I think I saw Goofy's Bounce House in my neighbor's yard for their son's 8th B-day.

Let's go on....Fantasmic is not a ride, it's a show. (And it is on it's last legs.) Innoventions is like a big, spinning Circut City and it was just about the most cost effective thing they could have done with the that building.
Rocket Rods is gone and I contend that Indiana Jones does not a theme park make.

It's blind devotion like what you are displaying that feeds right into their hands. All they'd need is a few refrigerator boxes and a string of X-mas lights and you'd tell me that it was worth every bit of the $43 bucks. Get the pixie dust out of your eyes and take a look around Disneyland next time you're there. It's got more holes than Augusta. It's missing more teeth than the front row at a Willie Nelson concert. They need to....hold on.....I'm going to use profanity here, better move the kiddies into the next room....they need to SPEND SOME MONEY and build some good, innovative rides at Disneyland or it's ALL going to flush with DCA. If your saying that Disney's big guns in the theme park patron fight is a Bounce House and a Jolley Trolley, sell that share of stock on your wall NOW! While it's still worth $18.

Roy :-(

[WDW2002]

Roy,


Can I ask you a question?

Why are you on a Disneyland board if it is such a horrible place? I am just curious.

[roymccoy]

Ya know, I never buy into that question. "If you don't like it, why are you here?" I'm here for the same reason you're here...I love Disney and I have since I was a kid. I just CAN NOT stand by and let them strip it down to a corporate icon. Disney USED to be more than that. Walt didn't care about money. He would have had twice as many rides for the same price. The powers that be now at Disney don't share your "Mickey Mouse" enthusiasm I'm afraid. If these people didn't work for Disney, they'd be at Microsoft or Merrill Lynch or Qualcomm, etc. They have no love for Disney. They will push YOUR love for Disney to the brink of you finally saying, "Forget it, it ain't worth it anymore." They will threaten to take out a ride JUST TO SEE what the core following says. If the level of disgust and complaints doesn't get to a certain level, then they will take out the ride. They tried it on Mr Lincoln and Mr. Toad and found that it would have cost the bottomline too much if they took it out. They were going to remove these attractions to save money. They weren't planning on putting anything in their place, They were just going to cut them out. They would cut Disneyland down to Innoventions and the teacups if we would let them. We allow them to do this by NOT COMPLAINING. These people take "not complaining" as a sign that they have the green light. We have to remember that we must protect Disney FROM the new corporate types in charge. We must complain, hoot, holler, fuss, etc. just to keep what we've got. They have in essence decided that Disneyland has too much in it. They have decided that Walt was too generous. They want Disneyland parred back to a smaller, cheaper park. You know what they want Disney to look like?!? DCA...that was the current bosses idea for a perfect Disney park. Basically, if they had Disneyland to "do all over again" it would be DCA... Cheap, empty, expensive and cost effective. My dad used to tell me a story that seems to fit right now....Back in the 70's NASA needed to build a spaceship for getting satellites into orbit faster and cheaper than they could before. They put out the usual requests for contractors to bid on buliding the different components. Along with the bids, they also listed the minimum specifications that the different components needed to be built to. Well, the yahoo that was in charge of picking the different contractors to build the ship was an awful lot like the new Disney brass. He lost site of the finished product and got mired down in saving money and making it as cheaply as possible. As it came out, he picked all of the LOWEST bidders. The lowest bidders all used the very MINIMUM specifications allowed. Well, when it came time to launch the first prototype, it blew up. It structurally wasn't sound. It hadn't been built strong enough. When they asked the original designer who came up with the plans why it blew up he said, "I didn't take into account that every single nut and bolt would be manufactured to the lowest common denominator of my plans. The lack of any quality whatsoever was the reason that it did not hold together."
See my point? Disney has lost site of the big picture. They are using the "lowest common denominator" theory in their parks...and if they don't watch out, it's going to shake apart like that spaceship.

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"Let me get this straight....you consider these rides?"

No, I consider them attractions.

"You're cool with them replacing the Submarines, People Mover, The Ranch, Skyway, Country Bear, etc??"

They didn't replace those rides. Pooh will replace Country Bears. Other new things will go into Tomorrowland.

"Cartoon Spin almost killed a kid. "

RRCS is a good dark ride. It wasn't the ride's fault that kid was injured.

"Let's go on....Fantasmic is not a ride, it's a show. (And it is on it's last legs.)"

Earlier you were complaining about Big Thunder Ranch and the Hunchback stage not being used. They are not rides either. And Fantasmic is not on it's last legs.

"Innoventions is like a big, spinning Circut City and it was just about the most cost effective thing they could have done with the that building."

It maybe cost effective, but my kids enjoy going in for a while each time we go to DL. I can't say that about Circuit City.

"Rocket Rods is gone and I contend that Indiana Jones does not a theme park make. "

Which is why I listed Rocket Rods as both opening and closing. Something will replace it. Would you rather have the PeopleMover over Indiana Jones?

"It's blind devotion like what you are displaying that feeds right into their hands. "

It's hardly blind devotion. I recognize that Tomorrowland '98 was a bust and that TL needs some new attractions. But ranting and raving about problems that aren't as bad as you make them because you got your facts wrong doesn't make your arguments stronger - it makes them weaker.

"All they'd need is a few refrigerator boxes and a string of X-mas lights and you'd tell me that it was worth every bit of the $43 bucks. Get the pixie dust out of your eyes and take a look around Disneyland next time you're there."

I have never and will never pay full price to go to DL. And after a visit, I write them a letter to let them know which things they did right and which things need work. Accusing them of problems that aren't true is just going to get you labeled a nut, and your criticisms will be dismissed. Get your facts straight.

[roymccoy]

Hey, if you're saying that you like Disneyland more now than you did in 1991, who am I to argue with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. As for me, I miss The Submarines, The PeopleMover, The Ranch, America Sings, Rocket Rods, The Skyway, The Motorboats, The Country Bear Jamboree, Circlevision, etc and have you noticed that ALL of the areas that those rides were in are now empty? (I consider America Sings WORSE than empty.) I'm glad that you are willing to let Toon Town "fill the void" of the rest of the empty park. I cannot ignore the fact that about a quarter of Disneyland is abandoned. Quality rides were taken out with NO plans for replacement but $43 is still charged. I'm not even mentioning the restaurants and shops that have closed since 1991 nor do I mention the fact that the only new idea's that seem to come in are temporary "cardboard cut-out" covers on existing rides. I will not have the wool pulled over MY eyes. I would be the guy yelling at the Emperor, "Hey dude...where your clothes??!?"

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"As for me, I miss The Submarines, The PeopleMover, The Ranch, America Sings, Rocket Rods, The Skyway, The Motorboats, The Country Bear Jamboree, Circlevision, etc and have you noticed that ALL of the areas that those rides were in are now empty? . . . I'm glad that you are willing to let Toon Town "fill the void" of the rest of the empty park. "

America Sings and Circlevision were both closed before 1991. I do not believe that Toontown "fills the void" - I noted in my previous post that TL needs a lot of work. If I believed that TL will stay like it is, then your point would be valid. It won't.

"I would be the guy yelling at the Emperor, "Hey dude...where your clothes??!?" "

Which would be a silly thing to say if he was wearing some. Does Disneyland have problems? Yes. Is it a perfect park? No. There have always been rides closed, some for rehab, some to be replaced. Is the park better now than in 91? Yes. Will it better in the future? Yes.

It's fine to criticize, roy, but if you criticize for things that aren't true, you will not have credibility.

I'd love to see some new rides in TL and Frontierland, but at the same time, I have enough sense to see that they're spending a lot of money redoing all the pavement in DL, one land at a time. There's no big "wow" factor to pavement, but it's needed and it looks very nice. Once that project is done, then they will turn their attention to other things.

[roymccoy]

You're happy about pavement?? I, for one, would like to see a little more ON TOP of the pavement. I'm sure I am not alone in thinking that Disneyland was better in the early 90's. There certainly was much more to do then. Tomorrowland was more complete and buzzing with activity. The submarines filled the lagoon. The Ranch was humming with activity and the smell of BBQ. I know that I sure felt that I got more for my money then. Longer hours. More parades and shows. More restaurants. Gift-giver games and prizes. Too much empty space at Disneyland today. Too much cost cutting. Hopefully, it won't be too late to fix the problems......I don't know

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"You're happy about pavement??"

Yes.

"I, for one, would like to see a little more ON TOP of the pavement."

I'm sure everyone would. But most people recognize that their wants need to be reasonable. Our economy will rebound, people will return to the DL resort, and it will continue to grow and improve. Somethings will be put in or changed that I will not care a lot for, and somethings will be put in or changed that I will like a lot. That's the way life works.

[roymccoy]

If people complain about DL the way they complained about DCA, we'll see the same results. You don't hear them talking about raising the prices over at DCA, do you? Even though they are adding a lot of new stuff? Nope. They thought they were getting away with something but they got bit. Now we need to tell them that we aren't too happy about the direction DL is going in, either. (Unless, of course, you're happy with DL)

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"If people complain about DL the way they complained about DCA, we'll see the same results."

The results we're seeing at DCA are not because of people on the internet making unfounded accusations. They're the result of less than hoped for attendence.

"Now we need to tell them that we aren't too happy about the direction DL is going in, either. "

Which I have in the past and which I will in the future. But my criticism will be based on fact, not fiction.

[roymccoy]

We'll agree to disagree. That's what makes America great.

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"We'll agree to disagree. "

What are you proposing to agree to disagree about? I'll agree to disagree about whether there is more to do now at DL than 91. I won't agree to disagree that you were wrong in many of your facts.

[roymccoy]

What facts are we disagreeing about?? That there are big ole holes in Disneyland?? That there is nothing in Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch or the Motorboat area or the Country Bear Jamboree Playhouse? That Tomorrowland is a ghost town? How does someone diagree with those FACTS?? That is the reality, Doug. I'm sorry if we can't agree on what that means to Disneyland, but those facts are irrefutable. There is nothing in those areas. They have ceased to be. You have even admitted that YOU think that Tomorrowland is a waste of space. Tomorrowland is a MAJOR part of Disneyland, and it didn't used to be a waste of space. How can a major portion of Disneyland be a waste of space but somehow Disneyland is better because of it?? I just don't get it. We can argue all you want, but I don't follow your logic. I have agreed to disagree and I am standing by it.

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

The fact that there are more attractions now than in 91. The fact that many of the attractions you listed as being there in 91 were removed prior to it. The fact that Tomorrowland is not a "ghost town" and I never said it was "a waste of space" - I said it need some more attractions.

"We can argue all you want, but I don't follow your logic."

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out when you make statements that do not match the facts.

[roymccoy]

I don't feel that the rides in Toon Town (where you get 3/4's of your "new rides") count all that much. Why not count every single game in the arcade? Why not count the top floor of StarCade as a loss of one ride because is empty. See what I mean?
The facts are this....Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch, The Motorboat River, The People Mover tracks, the Skyway Lines, The Country Bear Playhouse, The Plaza Pavillion and most of Tomorrowland are abandoned....If all of that is worth a Toon Town, I wanna play poker with you someday!

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"I don't feel that the rides in Toon Town (where you get 3/4's of your "new rides") count all that much."

Which is fine, but please recognize that some people my disagree.

"The facts are this....Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch, The Motorboat River, The People Mover tracks, the Skyway Lines, The Country Bear Playhouse, The Plaza Pavillion and most of Tomorrowland are abandoned...."

Those are not the facts. The Country Bear Playhouse is not abandoned, it's being replaced. Naming a bunch of places in Tomorrowland and then adding in "most of Tomorrowland" makes your list longer, but not accurate. Tomorrowland needs work, true, but I admitted that in my first post on this thread.

"If all of that is worth a Toon Town, I wanna play poker with you someday! "

I never said it was. But I'll take Indiana Jones, Roger Rabbit Cartoon Spin, and a Winnie the Pooh dark ride over the People Mover, the Motorboat Cruise, the Skyway, and the Country Bear Playhouse anyday.

[raidermatt]

Seriously, just a few more drinking fountains, and Tomorrowland will be back on track...

Wow, the debate has certainly become rather intense... Roy, I tend to agree that Toontown isn't chock full of "E-ticket" rides, but for my 3 year old son, it outweighs just about anything they can put in Tomorrowland. Just depends on who the audience is.

I think DL hasn't seen much in the way of "adds" lately because of DCA. That's where the attention has been, and for the most part, will continue to be for awhile. I know Disney has the money to do both, but they have stockholders to please, and they have to watch their capital expenditures, especially in an already existing and successful park. I do think we will see some additions to Tomorrowland, and some of the other areas, but it won't be in the next year or two.

[Douglas Dubh]

"I think DL hasn't seen much in the way of "adds" lately because of DCA. "

That may be part of it, but it's also true they've been working on rehabbing older stuff that needed it, and there is a philosophy, first advocated by Judson Greene, that Disneyland is a "mature" park, so they can afford to close an older ride when a new one premieres.

[raidermatt]

Good points, Doug. I have heard that philosophy before, and I can't logically disagree with it.

Of course I always want to see new things added, but the DCA/DD additions have done more to satisfy that want than any attraction in Tomorrowland could.

[SophisMom]

as a very recent visitor (and a local also) to Disneyland..I made a completely different post pretty much agreeing with Roy. The very next morning I was telling my sister that I (me not my 3yo dd) was very dissapointed at having to pay more than I have ever paid before to get in...only to feel a bit cheated by all the closures and refurb's going on...and on top of it ALL the park closed at 8pm. Dubh..when was the last time you visited Disneyland? (just curious)...because I walked away from there with the same feelings Roy has. Did my dd have a good time...sure she did..and yes to me that is what is most important...but you can be sure it is gonna be awhile until I am willing to fork over $80+ for her and I to go again until I see things improve. All this did for me was make me more anxious for our very first trip to Disneyworld next May...I am hoping for it to be so much more!

[WDW2002]

in regards to refurbs & park hours-
if you check the disneyland.com site you will find that they list the refurbs and park hours. If you go and are disapointed to find the park closes early or that your favorite rides are closed for refurb. then I think it is your own fault for not checking into it before you left. (JMO)

[SophisMom]

Well as a very new visitor to this board as well...I suppose you could be right. What about those without internet access?

[WDW2002]

People don't have internet access :eek:
Well....Disneyland does have a info line that also has this info.

[roymccoy]

If you don't check things out, it's your fault?? What, Disney lowers the price when they do all of the refurbishment? The park
has been "one big refurbishment" for a number of years if you ask me. As far as the Pooh dark ride, Doug...I wouldn't put it on your favorites list just yet. Disney has a habit of promising a new ride, taking out an existing ride, and then never going thru with the new ride..just leaving a big ole empty hole. How come you guys won't except the fact that a good number of us feel a little cheated at Disneyland lately. How can you tell us how we should feel. I FEEL A LITTLE CHEATED AT DISNEYLAND, LATELY! A lot of people do. I heard many comments while I was at Disneyland to this effect. Don't shoot the messenger, just because you don't like the message.

Roy :-)

[WDW2002]

Roy-
You are big on making statement with no factual backup. Can you give us one for your claim that "Disney has a habit of promising a new ride, taking out an existing ride, and then never going thru with the new ride..just leaving a big ole empty hole."

If you don't check things out, it's your fault??
As a matter of fact, I do feel this way. If you go the park only to find out things that you could have known before hand then YES it is your fault.

What, Disney lowers the price when they do all of the refurbishment?
No they don't. If they did none of the refurbs would get done.


The park has been "one big refurbishment" for a number of years if you ask me.
So instead of doing the refurbs, they should just leave the rides alone and then them fall apart?

I FEEL A LITTLE CHEATED AT DISNEYLAND, LATELY!
Wait a minute your first post stated " I haven't been to the old girl in awhile."

"How can you tell us how we should feel" & "Don't shoot the messenger, just because you don't like the message" It works both ways Roy. Not everyone is as "down" on Disney & Disneyland as you. That doesn't make either "group" right or wrong.

[roymccoy]

What is all of this "no factual back-up" stuff? I have merely pointed out the fact that MAJOR portions of Disneyland (I mercifully won't list them again) are EMPTY. They have ceased to be. There are no immediate plans for anything to happen in their empty spaces. What is going in at Submarine Lagoon? What is taking the Rocket Rods place? What will be zooming thru the Motorboat River? When is ground breaking at the Ranch area? What great restaurant is going into the Plaza Pavillion's empty shell? What part of EMPTY SPACES are we in question about here? C'mon, cut and paste answers to my questions about these areas. Give me the pixie dust version. I can't wait.

Roy :-)

[WDW2002]

I am NOT debating that rides were removed, over a period of about 15 years those rides were removed. But you seem to ignore what has been added to Disneyland in those 15 years. But you ignored my question.

What i am asking for is example of when a ride was PROMISED but not followed through because your exact words were "Disney has a habit of promising a new ride, taking out an existing ride, and then never going thru with the new ride..just leaving a big ole empty hole." If you are going to make this alligation then give us an example. Can you give an example of a ride that was promised that did not happen?

[roymccoy]

When the submarines were taken out, there was talk of an "all new" 20,000 Leagues under the Sea ride. That ploy helped to keep the complaints from the Disney loyalists down, and the new ride just went away. People Mover was closed with the promise of Rocket Rods. Rocket Rods didn't really close, it went into refurbishment with a promise of an all new improved Rocket Rod type ride. Later, after all the hub bub blew over, it quietly closed for good. The Plaza Pavillion Restaurant closed "temporarily" 4 years ago for refurbishment and overhaul. An all new character type restaurant, Like Crystal Palace in WDW, was planned and then it quietly became the new annual pass distribution site. FUN! Right before America Sings closed down, it was said that an All-new Carousel of Progress type ride would go in it's place. Later on, after the closure, it became Disney office space. Fun! The Skyway wasn't supposed to close for good...it was, again, a refurbishment that just became a little more permanent. I don't think they admit even now that the Keel Boats are really gone for good. They haven't used them for 5 years but you never know. First they were going to only close one of the Country Bear Theaters. Then it was going to stay thru X-mas. Then they were going to transfer Country Bears to DCA. Now I have seen pictures of everything being shipped to Burbank in trucks. We were promised that "When the lights go out, it's over" in 1996. Don't tell me that Disney exec's would fib a little about something like that!! Now I coulda swore that I saw the Electrical Parade at DCA...maybe it was my imagination. (Got my worthless lightbulb, though) Videopolis closed for refurbishment and never came back. Carnation Gardens closed for refurbishment....guess what?...never came back. 100th anniversary of Walt's birth and guess what? They took Walt's office out of DL and shipped it to WDW. Guess we know where we rank. Shall I go on?? Motorboat venue was going to be a "Little Mermaid" ride of some sort. Now you can get hot dogs there. Aladin's Oasis closed one winter to never return.
We also said Au Revoir to The Gallery over Pirates.

Disney uses the old "bait and switch" to perfection. They've had to find some way to quiet the massive protests that used to go on after an announced ride closing. There is no denying that Disneyland is getting emptier and with recent threats of the closings of
Mr Lincoln, The Tiki Room, Mr Toad's Wild Ride and StorybookLand, we could see a lot more empty spaces.

Roy :-)

[Douglas Dubh]

"Dubh..when was the last time you visited Disneyland?"

Late February, 2001. I'm going down again next month.

"but you can be sure it is gonna be awhile until I am willing to fork over $80+ for her and I to go again until I see things improve."

You paid over $80 for yourself and a 3 year old? That's way too much. Adult tickets are only $43 with no discount. I think kids are about $33. Plus I'm pretty sure you can get discount coupons at Albertson's. Hope you get better deals at WDW, but please recognize that these same things happen there.

"

[Douglas Dubh]

"How come you guys won't except the fact that a good number of us feel a little cheated at Disneyland lately. How can you tell us how we should feel."

I fully except the fact that you think Disneyland is less than it should be right now. I feel that way too. However, making wild accusations does not help your case. If you feel as strongly as you do, write Disney a nice letter and point out all the things that are closed that you feel should be open. Make sure you get your facts right - the stuff below is internet rumour, not fact:

"First they were going to only close one of the Country Bear Theaters. Then it was going to stay thru X-mas. Then they were going to transfer Country Bears to DCA. Now I have seen pictures of everything being shipped to Burbank in trucks."

"Videopolis closed for refurbishment and never came back."

Actually, it was replaced by the Fantasyland Theater.

"Carnation Gardens closed for refurbishment....guess what?...never came back."

I just read that they're going to be having a little show there, to make up for closing Animazement.

And the Gallery above the Pirates is not closed.

[WDW2002]

Roy-
We have all heard the rumors of what "might" happen to Disneyland. With the internet and sites just like this, they are rampant. But unless you get an offical statement from Disney regarding a new attraction, then remember to take it as a rumor. There are tons of rumors that turned out to be false or ahead of its time. rumors about the Brears closing have been going on for a least a couple of years before their last show last month. I don't remember seeing anything official about a new subs ride. And the rumor I heard was NOT a 20,000 leagues ride but a Atlantis ride (to coincide with the new movie). There were rumors about the electric parade for a year before its TRIUMPANT return in July.

I do however find that you complain that they take things away, but when they give it back to us, such as with the electric parade you are still complaining. I for one was esstatic when it returned and it brought me to Disneyland Resort for an unplanned and unscheduled trip.

In regards to ONE of walts offices, did you bother to go into the attraction?? They added so much to it. They did not just remove the one office, they completely redid the attraction. And it is AWESOME!

[roymccoy]

I was at Disneyland when the Submarines were going to close and there was a little sign out front that said "Imagination in Progress." I was there when cast members were telling people that America Sings was going to be revamped. I was there when Rocket Rods had a "Closed for Refurbishment" sign on it. I was there when Carnation Gardens had a "Sorry, Closed for Refurbishment" sign on it. They're going to put a "little show" at the stage in Carnation Gardens? They have little shows there all of the time. I'm talking about those cool food stands that they were suppose to fix up. Supposedly, they were fixing the water and gas lines and updating the kitchens. They updated them alright, they REALLY streamlined them!!
I also heard the Atlantis "rumor", but I didn't mention that because it was a rumor. I'm talking about a sign I saw in front of the attraction, put there by Disney BEFORE it closed. Obviously, it was meant to keep down the complaints. It worked.
I didn't say I didn't appreciate seeing the Electrical Parade again, I did. They shouldn't have gotten rid of it in the first place. They shouldn't get rid of ANY ride that is just going to leave a big empty space. That's just less for our money and we should complain about that.

Roy :-)

P.S. As far as Sophies contention that she paid $80 to get in Disneyland, what's your problem with that? $43 for her, $33 for her 3 year old and $7 to park. That's $83. Sounds right to me. Not everybody shops at Albertsons. I don't.

[teri]

Heck, I am still back on page 1... but I did skim through. DL needs work. DL is aging and small. They just added DCA, which is having the same kind of first year pains as Animal Kingdom had, PLUS a new luxury resort, PLUS a beautiful new Downtown Disney, PLUS a huge new parking structure, PLUS a recent rehab of the Disneyland hotel. My take on this whole thing is that they are trying to expand out, move the crowds out of the one older park that definitely, certainly, obviously needs work (and drinking fountains ;) ) so that they can redo the dear old Disneyland park, as time and budget allows. The big problem is that we are all creatures of habit, we are romantic and nostalgic, we want the same old feeling as before. We want A Magic Day At Disneyland like we had when we were kids. The imagineers and business folks saw the expansion as an opportunity to make this a Resort, a destination, a place with the dear old park plus adult activities that would lure people to stay a few days. If you have not been there in 10 years and you blow in, blow by the expansions, don't explore the resorts, and just make a beeline for the park during offseason (when refurbushments are traditionally scheduled) you are not going to have as much of a good time. Right now, it takes a bit of a paradigm shift to see the value of the changes. I would not travel out of my way to go to Disneyland for only one day. It is a 2-3 day experience now, which includes themed dining and hopefully some pool time for relaxation. To me, that completes the experience. It isn't just an amusement park anymore... the old park has changed, and needs work.

"Why is Disney charging more money now for admission even though there is less to do?"
Labor costs, insurance, lawsuit settlements, mandatory safety and disability access changes, increased cost of supplies, seriously increased energy costs (can you imagine the electric bill for one night of your favorite parade???), and maintenance on an aging park. A day at Great America is $38 and trust me, it ain't Disney. When you go to Disneyland you aren't just paying for the rides, you are paying for the Show. It isn't cheap to have all those entertainers, engineers and skilled craftpeople on staff.

(And Country Bear... it was a goner, guys. I'm glad you liked it, but the place was empty even on busy days. A pooh ride or show would be perfect there.)

[SophisMom]

That's a great post and makes perfect sense. And yes I did pay $80+...that included $7 for the stroller rental so I will revise that to the $76 to "get in" as I could have hauled my stroller along with me.

I think Teri you make great sense...I hadn't thought of it that way. It just bums me out that we are the ones who visit this park several times a year...maybe next time I just wait until they are offering the "California" resident discount tickets.

It's not that big of a deal for me...I realize changes need to be made and there are "other" options in Southern Cal..but yes I guess I am hanging on to those memories of old...how you could never seem to get to all the "lands" of Disney in one day.

Yes I am researching my trip to Disneyworld...but thanks for the advice. Believe you me I have learned. :rolleyes:

[SophisMom]

<font colr=purple><font size=5> I STILL LOVE THE PARADE! </FONT></FONT>

The parade that day was as good as it has ever been! Specially that guy riding the elephant in the loin cloth! :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

[Douglas Dubh]

"And yes I did pay $80+"

I had forgotten about paying for parking, so I guess $80+ isn't as bad as I originally thought. Sorry if it appeared I was jumping on you.

"It just bums me out that we are the ones who visit this park several times a year."

Might be worth it to get AP's then, unless you usually go on blackout days.

"maybe next time I just wait until they are offering the "California" resident discount tickets."

There's also AAA discounts and often ones through credit unions. Plus DisneyClub. I can't remember the last time I paid full price for an amusement park.

[WDW2002]

Originally posted by SophisMom
<font colr=purple><font size=5> I STILL LOVE THE PARADE! </FONT></FONT>

The parade that day was as good as it has ever been! Specially that guy riding the elephant in the loin cloth! :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

See not everyone feels the same about the same things. I thought the parade was the worst thing at the park when we were there in August. It just seemed very un organized and seeing a bunch of park guests in totos not all that entertaining (to me).


And Terri

You are absolutely correct. Everything changes, nothing stays the same. The park is vastly different then when I was a kid. Disneyland is a work in progress, so change is enevitable. Some good, some bad but change nevertheless