Independent Owners Group

[DanG]

I have not been an owner very long so I expect many on this forum have a better perspective on the relationship DVC has with its owners.

It seems that as an ownership community we do not have a collective organization that independently represents owner interests and that DVC may serve multiple masters. It seems that with tens of thousands of loyal, devoted and committed (finanacially and emotionally) members, DVC should be able to negotiate better discounts with Disney and other vendors (i.e. rental car companies, limosine services, grocery delivery services, restaurants, shows). If you consider the volume of DVC members that come through the area on a steady basis throughout the year, I would think that many businesses would see giving discounts to this group as a great business generator. I suspect that DVC has no incentive to get these discounts from outside vendors or push other Disney entities for real discounts on things you might want to buy. It is true that we don't have a contractual right to these things, but we could be doing better.

These communications issues also are relevant to management and improvement issues, i.e poll members and see what concierge collection and other types of trading opportunities we would like to see. I know that the problem lies in the fragmented ownership base and that we each have a vote and vote, but have rarely if ever seen an analysis of why I would vote for or against something DVC proposes to owners or attempts at communicating group concerns to Disney. I also recognize from reading this forum that we often have divergent opinions on what is good or necessary.

So a couple of questions:

1) Are you satisfied with the representation DVC owners have in the current system? I don't discount that maybe the answer is yes.

2) Do you think DVC owners should create an independent owners group to evaluate DVC actions and independently negotiate discounts for those with DVC cards (admittedly this would be easier for outside vendors then it would be with Disney directly).

3) Would you join such a group?

It seems to me that an ownership group could be a positive and more effective way of communicating with Disney.

DanG

[Firefighter Mickey]

Based on some of the info that Doc recently posted, I suspect that independantly negotiating with Disney for benefits may be a lot more difficult then you are assuming. I don't think that the current lack of certain benefits is not for lack of trying on the part of DVC - at least with Disney. As far as other vendors go, I'm just not sure I see what incentive they could be offered to provide discounts.

[Granny]

DanG....good questions. My answers by number.

1. Honestly, I didn't figure on having much voice so I'm not disappointed. Do I wish we had more? Sure, but as you point out it would be hard to get the DVC membership to agree on a lot of things. I figure if the 200 homeowners in my subdivision can't agree on anything, then the thousands of DVC owners would be even worse! :(

2. I think the independent group makes a lot of sense, from a standpoint of negotiating with outside suppliers. I see no reason for Disney to negotiate with internal benefits unless DVC sales and/or park attendance turn way south.

3. I think the group would realistically need to be in the Orlando area to meet with and negotiate deals. So I don't think I would be a good member of the group (see, it's just like looking for trustees for the subdivision!).


Firefighter Mickey....I respectfully disagree regarding the willingness of the outside vendors to deal. DVC represents thousands of members coming to Orlando every year. The buying power is quantifiable and significant. Let's say you approach Mears and say....."look, we will publish your name and phone number along with the 15% discount you will provide the DVC members. If you don't want to play, I'm sure your competitor will". I think there is a lot more leveraged buying power than you may think.

The same leverage could be applied to many outside service areas including car rentals, grocery stores, and other areas where DVC members currently have choices ....that's the key since any outside supplier would have to know that there is a potential loss of business by not working with DVC.

Interesting concept. If DVC sales slow down, it would be worth Disney's while to do this themselves with outside suppliers. It costs very little to implement and could help offset what some refer to as an "erosion of perks" that we have seen over the past ten years.

[MikeBW]

An Independent Owner's Group is a very intriguing idea. It would seem that outside vendors would like to get a hold of the DVC members list. Didn't Universal give ticket discounts to DVC members? I remember something about this a couple of years ago when I first found this site.

[Firefighter Mickey]

Yes, a few years ago one of the people that would sometimes post contacted Universal and got DVC members a discount on admission media. It was basically the same discount you could get thru any number of different places (AAA, AARP, People that can walk and chew gum, etc.), and was usually not as good a discount as could be found via Universals own web site. I am not certain if any DVC member actually took advantage of this - my memory is saying that the one time someone said they did try, Universal didn't know anything about a discount.

However, Universal did not have a membership list - the only requirement was to show your DVC card. I cannot imagine DVC releasing such a list without a court order.

[OKWgolfer]

What a great idea! Disney, nor DVC, seems too be interested in us now that they have our money. Sign me up.

[Howard Cohen]

You can count me in!! With the membership numbers that DVC has we should be able to muster some CLOUT!!

[SwampFox]

Assuming Disney would allow an independant organization to negotiate using the DVC name, someone would need to have DVC provide (for a fee) a membership list and then after negotiating with the vendors chosen (who would choose and negotiate?) contact the DVC membership to publicize the great deals. Will the great deals be available to all members, or only those who join the independant group?

The group will need some real organization and will need some funding for printing costs and mailing expenses. What will the annual dues be for the group and who will handle those details? Will an outside auditor be hired to make sure the books are in order and take care of filing the not-for-profit paperwork with the IRS?

We may need to consider the costs and logistics involved before too many sign up for this group. Better to expore these issues beforehand than to have to explain them later. Maybe we have enough accountants to handle the bookkeeping details and attorneys willing to provide negotiating services and we can form a letter writing commitee to compose and mail the information to the DVC members, so there will be little expense for this project.....and when we're all done we can put on a talent show out in the barn.

[OKWgolfer]

Party pooper.

[DanG]

I agree Firefighter Mickey and SwampFox that there are significant issues associated with organizing such a group. My intention is first to see whether people think the existence of such an organization is a good idea which they might want to support and/or participate in.

I am still thinking through the structure and communications media, as well as other issues such as recoupment of costs (this would be a non-profit).

That said, Firefighter Mickey, I agree that Disney itself would be the most difficult to squeeze a discount from. Other vendors would look at such discounts as a cost of advertising, particularly with size and frequent visits of the loyal DVC owner base. But if Universal will give such a group ticket discounts, Disney can either give similar discounts or deal with the fallout from the story that its competitor is scooping up business from its best customers. I guarantee I could get that story picked up. The point for me is that Disney has never been incented to give us discounts because we have been tens of thousands of separate voices. A collective voice might have more authority.

Swampfox, your assertion that there would be a license fee for the use of the DVC name is wrong. A name such as "DVC Owners Group" is simply descriptive, is fair use and as such is not in violation of the DVC trademark. Both friendly and unfriendly user groups have long been common in the technology industry without any trademark issues arising.

Your logistics points and questions are excellent. I wouldn't purport that this group should speak for anyone that doesn't want to be spoken for. Therefore, getting the DVC mailing list is not as important (though if you wanted to develop a list, such information is easily ascertainable from the county property records. This has been the method used by timeshare resale companies to solicit business).

I am not trying to give you a hard time on this because I agree that doing something like proposed would entail a lot of work and consensus building. If people are generally apathetic to the idea, then it dies an early death. Again, I just want to see first if people think an independent owner group is a good idea.

DanG

[SwampFox]

Swampfox, your assertion that there would be a license fee for the use of the DVC name is wrong.

I didn't assert anything. The only fee I was referring to was that DVC will provide a listing of the membership to a member for the cost of reproducing the list. Contacting those members with any correspondence would not be at DVC expense. It would seem that you will need to contact and engage a significant number of members to "get that story picked up" or to even have anything to use for your negotiation. A list of the members might be handy to accomplish that task. Maybe it would be easier to create your list of 60,000 members by searching thru the county records one-by-one.

I don't know if there would be any licensing fee offered- I wouldn't be surprised to find that Disney legal would check out anyone claiming to represent the DVC Membership in any type of unsanctioned negotiation and would most certainly protect the DVC name if the other party tried to use the DVC name in any materials claiming they provide discounts to the DVC. Disney is very protective of it's Trademark, in spite of what may be done in the technology industry.

Maybe you can have a bake sale to raise money for a legal defense fund!

[Chuck S]

Just my two cents...if such a group were to form, there would almost need to be sub-groups for each DVC resort, to address issues at that specific resort. The groups could work in concert to address discount and ticket media issues.

[jctwizzer]

JMHO, but you guys must really be in fantasyland.......the total DVC group (not just those that post here) may be around 60,000.
That is about the attendance for two decent days at the Magic Kingdom. Hardly a ripple in the total scheme of things. Where's your leverage?? You gonna quit if they don't go along with your fantasy?? Withhold your dues?? Sell?? Enjoy what you have - as is, it's one of the best things going.:smooth:

[PKS44]

Well, I asked my brother about this because this is what he does for a living...marketing. He has been doing it for a long time and gets paid pretty well for it. He says the idea is worth study. Clearly there are some issues. Number one is that Disney is not going to want DVC members negotiating for discounts on products that may cannibalize Disney products. So they are not likely to give over any lists to anyone. It would be up to us to organize and still it may anger and provoke Disney. Second is the question whether offering the discounts really generates NEW business or not. This is the whole issue of Florida passes for DVC members...there is little NEW park admission media sold by discounting to a group that is coming to STAY near the parks. Can Mears or other limo service get enough DVC business to make the discount worthwhile? Grocery chains? Rental car companies? Restaurants OFF site (Disney will hit the roof over this last group getting into it.)
Anyway, the point is that 60,000 families with disposable income are apparently an attractive group for study by those in marketing.

Paul

[prplcrzy]

Paul you are absolutely correct in your assertion that the restaurants in the area would kill to get more business from Disney. They may be busy from being in proximity to Disney, but if they got thir name out there to DVC members it would be extra business for them and I really think that they would be not only happy to offer a discount, but advertise to the membership as well. I would go off property more to eat if I knew where some of the restaurants are and what's on the menu. Sounds like a good idea. This would hit Disney where it hurts, in the pocket.

I'm not advocating hurting Disney, but they do ignore the membership to the extent that we should remind them we are here somehow. If this really ate into the business they have, maybe they would pay attention to the child they gave birth to, but choose to ignore because they think it will always love them, no matter what they do. It's kinda like an abusive relationship.

[jctwizzer]

Guess I'm in the minority, but no way do I feel abused by Disney. We bought a timeshare, and we have one that, in our opinion, is a good one--we did not buy for the clout, for the freebies, or for the blue light specials; and none were promised to us. So, we are getting what we bought. Looking a the major expenses of using the timeshare---between special deals, priceline and hotwire , we have never paid more than $150 for a roundtrip ticket....so discounts on air fares wouldn't be a big deal. We already have the lodging, so discounts there would be moot. We usually get a full size car for $18 to $20 per day, so any discounts there wouldn't be a big deal--I can't rent a lawn mower at home for that. One of the remaining areas for savings are park tickets. We know how that will turn out, and its been beat to death on these boards forever and a day---it ain't going to happen because Disney doesn't need to to do it to get us in the parks. And we've been the Universal and Seaworld and consider them something we might do every 5 to 8 years; maybe! Which leaves food. Because we have DVC, we usually eat one meal a day in the unit. And, recently, there have always been several discounts available to DVC members at restaurants on property, if we chose to use them. Which means that, if I drive off site, I might save $5 to someone offering a discount to DVC members. However, I can get now get those thru the coupon books that can be picked all over the Orlando area. And if the DVC group was that disirable, all some one would have to do is offer the discount thru this site or on billboards in the Orlando area. And none of that is being done. Which leads me to believe, that we don't are as relevant from a marketing standpoint as some people seem to think we are.....just my 2 cents worth....time for someone to offer change!:rolleyes:

[SleepyatDVC]

I think it would be great to get any kind of discounts, especially, as a DVC member. But wouldn't it be more feasible for the members of this forum as a whole to negotiate to get these mostly off-site discounts? How many registered users are there now? I personally would love off-site restaurant discounts and car rental discounts. Maybe we can get Pete to do even MORE negotiating on our behalf!!!:D

[normr]

How about if we approached "TUG" (http://www.tug2.net) the timeshare user group about setting up a DVC/Disney area section and then we have also have the added owners of all the other timeshares in the area that are being negotiated for, this way we also have an area on the internet too.

Or start our own Orlando area timeshare owner organization on the net, Look what the net did for Pete.


look

[Sims]

"Negotiate" with a Disney corporation?

Anyone who thinks he/she/we could negotiate with a Disney corporation should ask Celebration residents about their experience with negotiation with a Disney corporation.

[MinnieMe2]

....and you certainly stated my feelings very well. I'm just glad we were able to obtain our membership. I'm not looking for any freebies or discounts that weren't promised right up front. I can obtain park discounts thru Disney Club or AAA, and that's good enough for me. Discounts on meals are a moot point because now we can prepare some of our meals in the unit, which is certainly a savings. I'm just relieved to know that when we leave the World at the end of our next trip, I won't have to wonder if I'll ever get back again....

[Granny]

jctwizzer....I don't think this thread was started because DanG was feeling "abused" by Disney.

I took this thread as a stab to see if a group could be formed to utilize the buying power of DVC members to get discounts, especially at non-Disney venues and services.

I still think it is an interesting concept, but getting membership to agree to it (and a fee for the work entailed) is going to be a bit of a pipe dream, IMHO.

I still think it is something that Disney should do if for no other reason than to help it sell more DVC units. I imagine that would only be an impetus for them if BCV did not sell well. I think everyone's opinion seems to be that these will sell like hotcakes, so I'm not holding my breath for Disney to do anything for us.

[prplcrzy]

Granny I think you're right. I got the impression that Dan was interested in seeking discounts with a buying power of more than 1 or 10 people. If there are 60,000 members, why couldn't we get together and negotiate discounts, even with Universal. It's kinda like a AAA thing. There are lots of members, lets make a deal. I don't think the general purpose was to strong arm Disney into anything, but if we all got together and were to gather discounts from other places that would be good for us wouldn't it? Then Disney may realize that they are ignoring a faithful segment of their followers.

They are increasing membership and decreasing things they have offered in the past. It is true they don't owe us anything, but common sense tells you to do things for those who are faithful.

I work for a restaurant company and I can comp food for regular guests, and while I don't do it all of the time, I do make some people feel really special by buying them dinner. Yes, it is true some people would say that I owe it to them, they are regulars and some would think that I went out of my way. As a business person, I kinda do owe it to the people who treat me right and keep coming back. It strengthens the bond between customer and business and makes good business sense.

While they are not abusing us, they are not doing anything extra for us. A little extra once in a while goes a long way, the problem is that large corporations lose sight of that, and that's where the "Mom and Pop" types of organizations have an advantage and can build loyalty.

It really wouldn't impact their bottom line either, or if it did it would be so slight that it would be nothing more than .000001% of their bottom line, basically it would cost them nothing to do so. The problem is because their bonuses are riding on watching every last penny, and since Disney is a lot of little corporations with their own pay structures, no one in their right mind will give something away for nothing because it comes out of their pocket.

Why shouldn't we look for discounts elsewhere if Disney is not going to give them to us?

[PKS44]

I agree with my good-sensed fellow Missourian, Granny. This is not about feeling abused. It is about trying to see if people with a common interest can use their buying power to their own advantage. That works for credit unions, AAA, professional associations, etc.

I think alarge group like an Orlando Timeshare Owners (OTO) or United Society of Timeshare Owners of Orlando (US TOO) could be something that would appeal to a lot of businesses from grocers, to car rental agencies, to restaurants, to theme parks...We are a desirable market, with disposable income and MAY be worth courting. I am not about to try to form such a group, but I do think it is an idea with possible merit. A win-win for all not a slam on Disney, or anyone.

Paul

[Cap]

I view the suggestion as similar to having a subdivision Homeowner's Association, except that it would not have a mandatory membership and any dues would be voluntary.

I think it is an idea worth exploring. You don't know what leverage you have until you try.

As far as the name of the organization goes, I don't see how there could legitimately be an issue with a name such as "Association or Disney Vacation Club Members" or something similar. We do have deeded ownership and the right of free association.

As for costs - I would be willing to spend $10 at least for one year to see if this would provide any benefits. If 20% of the membership paid this, it would be $120,000 which could provide for some part time staff and cover association set up costs. I'd try to use e-mail instead of paper mail to avoid printing / mailing costs.

Can some one raise a poll on this?

[CaptainMidnight]

I like the idea.

Some of this issues raised seem to be based on several assumptions that can be easily worked out.

Membership lists? It could easily be a voluntary sign up on a web site that is discussed here at DIS and TUG and other places. Word of mouth from member to member at the resorts.

What clout would you have? Massive letter writing campaigns initiated by the group may easily be enough to resolve important issues, like don't take away pool hopping, instead address the abuse of pools by locals.

Why not, if it doesn't work, at least it will be a good try for good reasons. This group hopefully won't be against Disney, (I'm not in favor of that) but to help Disney by better communicating, and to further the advantages of ownership by the possibility of additional discounts.

Go for it. We need a mission or purpose statement for the group. What is it they are setting out to achieve? How will they go about achieving it? Communication by internet and an independant web site may be an easy start. Dues? Perhaps a simple $20 in dues would provide plenty of operating income.

[WebmasterDoc]

Please don't plan to use this website for anything but a DVC discussion forum.

Pete has made it very clear in the past that this board will NOT be used for any letter writing campaign and certainly won't be used to advertise another website without his express permission.

Thanks!

[Snowgod]

Where is the club aspect of the DVC? If we are a club then we already have in place the means to our ends. We start meeting on a regular basis, such as each week have a meeting of members at WDW (not run by DVD). We can make these meetings an event that no one would want to miss by combining the meetings with a discount information guide. We can register members online through a forum such as the DIS 4 updated meeting schedules. If a membership fee is required it can be used to communicate with members and a mailing list of members would be a valuable item to any Orlando business. I look at it as way to make my DVC investment more valuable. If we are 60,000 strong then we should use our strength for our benefit. :smooth:

[baileybrad]

We give ourselves discounts on restaurants all the time when visiting WDW and staying either at a DVC resort or any other WDW hotel. It is called "dining off-site". It is really available to anyone. I don't think that Disney really cares to negotiate with the DVC. I think Doc's post several weeks ago pretty much confirmed that. Disney thinks that we are a captive audience. Until they believe otherwise very little will change.

[PKS44]

I certainly see DVC members posting messages here all the time to gather based on other common associations (e.g All Massachusett's DVC members getting together, etc.) I still feel though that DVC members are more likely to find their buying power enhanced by associating with other timeshare owners who share a similar interest (how to save money while in the Orlando area). I don't think DVC even at 60,000 members is big enough...Maybe TUG is the best place to try to start something like this, not here.

Paul

[Chuck S]

While a negotiation may work to benefit DVC somewhat in the non-Disney tickets and meals...think about this.

60K members looking for a discount. Many groups have larger memberships, AARP, AAA etc. and they do NOT have the 'substantial' discounts that are wanted (expected?) by DVC members. In reality, I think Disney could afford us the same discounts as DC. I think a dining discount at EPCOT would be a nice perk, since we do spend more time in the parks. And I think other attractions and nationwide chains could give us similar discounts to AARP and AAA, this would be helpful while traveling. But really 60K members worldwide is NOT a huge number, the only thing that makes us unique is that we spend more time than the average vacationer at WDW.

[CaptainMidnight]

Please don't plan to use this website for anything but a DVC discussion forum.


Agreed. I hope my post doesn't say that a letter writing campaign should be launched from DIS, (and when I reread it I don't read that) because it is certainly not my intent to use DIS for such purposes.

However, Doc your post does make the case, a separate website for the "Unofficial DVC Members Association" which would allow such practices when they may be in order, especially if there is a big take away like pool hopping.

As far as other web sites? Well many signatures seem to contain website links. But, I'm not here to be picky, this thread asks for an opinion on the idea of a DVC association, and I'm just sharing my view.

I'm really very happy with DVC and I'm probably going to do an add on within the next week! I'm also very appreciative of the information DIS provides and have used them extensively, including for great deals on hotel rooms like this summer when the Dolphin resort was only $129 per night! Great deal, thanks DIS.

And thanks for running such a great website Doc and Pete.

:tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

[DisneyCrazy]

While 'we' might not be as large as some other groups 'we' should have greater 'focus' than other groups as our visting patterns are known - they are 'marketing' to these groups with unknown visiting patterns. I think we are looking more for an 'incentive' to spend AT Disney while we are there. I think a DVC program and a AAA/AARP program should be different.

My opinion, and they are like, well, you know the saying... :D


Chuck S Wrote:

60K members looking for a discount. Many groups have larger memberships, AARP, AAA etc. and they do NOT have the 'substantial' discounts that are wanted (expected?) by DVC members. In reality, I think Disney could afford us the same discounts as DC. I think a dining discount at EPCOT would be a nice perk, since we do spend more time in the parks. And I think other attractions and nationwide chains could give us similar discounts to AARP and AAA, this would be helpful while traveling. But really 60K members worldwide is NOT a huge number, the only thing that makes us unique is that we spend more time than the average vacationer at WDW.

[Chuck S]

I was referring to maybe some hotel chains and restaurant chains that are off property (like Hampton Inn) giving us similar discounts to AARP/AAA to encourage us to stop there while driving nationwide, not Disney. I said I think Disney should at least give us the same discounts as Disney Club, as well as some dining discounts.

[jctwizzer]

Re: previous post saying we should get dining discounts...
When we checked to WLV last month we were given a sheet of discounts for DVC members.....the sheet included discounts at 20 restaurants on property. IMHO we are already getting dining discounts....maybe we need to pay more attention to what's already there.

[PKS44]

Chuck S wrote: "I said I think Disney should at least give us the same discounts as Disney Club, as well as some dining discounts."

I have never bought into the idea that Disney "should" do anything except make money and do it in a way that allows them to keep making MORE money. If a discount would lead to that, then maybe the word should applies. What I find silly is the idea that DVC members "deserve" a discount for loyalty or some such nonsense. If you can create profit from that loyalty-like getting people to eat in the Swan or Dolphin when they would not otherwise think of it, fine. But as a perk- it is just not warranted.

With regard to the current discussion- timeshare owners in general are a market which is riper than AAA and AARP in that you know exactly where they are likely to be and what they are likely doing (they are vacationing in a particular place) and that they have more disposable income than the average guy (maybe even the average AAA and AARP member. It would be interesting to know the average meal check totals for the various subgroups. Companies do all sorts of stuff to seek out groups like that in order to target their products. Therefore it may be worth more to them to appeal to DVC or Timeshare owners.


Paul

[Chuck S]

the sheet included discounts at 20 restaurants on property.

Then things have already improved since my last trip, the sheet then listed very few discounts. It would be nice if they could update a website with ALL current discounts, even if it needed to be updated on a monthly basis. Then we could check out the menus on Deb Will's site to see if it is a cuisine that would appeal to us before our trip, and be able to add this eatery to our 'want to do' list.

[jctwizzer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chuck S
[B]

. It would be nice if they could update a website with ALL current discounts

Hi...just checked the DVC member site...all the on property dining discounts referenced in my post are listed...take a look>







:) :)

[CaptainMidnight]

Is there anyone interested in being the president and starting the unofficial DVC owner's association?

Or is this just one of those threads that passes on....

[DanG]

Capn Midnight, I will weigh back in after having initiated this thread.

I deliberately wanted to let people express their thoughts and opinions before suggesting a course of action. Just to clear up any issues around the initial question, I am not unhappy with my DVC purchase and do not believe that Disney "owes" anything. That said, there is no forum for collectively expressing opinions or asking Disney to do or stop doing something.

I am willing to work with a group of people to take a look at the issues and challenges inherent in starting and organizing an independent owners group. I would ask that others interested in helping to set up and publicize or join this type of group either send me a PM (Private Message) or e:mail to discuss further. You can get this information by clicking on my profile information below.

I understand that many of you see don't see a need for this and we won't purport to speak for you.

DanG

[KNWVIKING]

"there is no forum for collectively expressing opinions or asking Disney to do or stop doing something. " (I don't know how to do that underline thing people do to pull quotes from other post).

From what I've been told,Disney monitors this board all the time. We've all talked about how popular toasters are in studios and low & behold,DVC put toasters in the studios. We had massive discussion on how unclear the pool hopping rules were,shortly afterwards DVC posted the guidelines on the DVC website. I'm sure there are other examples of this others could post.
I guess I've also missed the point of this post as far as what we're going to negotiate for and with who. The DVC website is choke full of member discounts. If your talking about off property in the Orlando - Kissemmee area the same thing applys. If you can't find a discount or coupon,your not looking to hard.
As for our 60,000 + membership: If some 15 million people visit WDW annually, is our size deserving of that much clout ?
I'm not against anyone trying to organize some type of association but I really don't see a need for it.Good luck in advance if you try.