Gay Ignorance = Gay Avoidance???

[tiggeroo13]

It's interesting that myself included that this forum gets a lot of non gay/lesbian lurkers and posters. I really don't mean to offend as that is not my intention with what I'm going to say but I've been doing some thinking (I know pretty scary). I was wondering after reading the thread about "out at work" if people who are not accepting of gays are just not aware. I am a non lesbian mormon from utah (which I could take a lot of bashing for) who thinks of gays the same way as I do my best friend. However, in thinking about people around me and listening to some of the posts on this board I've come up with some really ignorant questions that I wonder about. How do you meet other gay people and approach them, how do you know you're gay, when did you first realize that you are gay, do you think it should be such an issue politically to be gay, do you think all non gays are ignorant because they don't understand, etc. Now some of these questions are completely ignorant like the political question, but to non gay people who don't have a lot of contact with gay people are always curious. My gay friend in New York, who was the best hairdresser in the world, moved and I used to ask him all kinds of questions and it helped me pull off my gay avoidance mask. I love him like a brother! I guess I am just wondering if we look to see the other side a little more, in my case look to you guys, if we wont understand a little more and move this world towards more tolerance and peace. Okay, my soapbox is over and I'm sure I might come off as offensive but that's not what I wanted to do.

[SeattleRedBear]

Tigger -- This is not offensive at all...in fact, it's the exact opposite!! I can pull together a couple Gay 101 websites if you're really interested in the answers to some of your questions (I'm out the door now but can look into it tomorrow). Unlike other minorities, gay people can (and do) often 'pass' for straight for any number of reasons (various forms of fear being the primary ones) which I think is one of the reasons why people assume the only gay people they know are the stereotypical ones. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but I try (as hard as I can as I am naturally a critical person) to "never" judge a person on appearance or manner, but instead on their actions and their words. Sexual and gender identity is such a complex thing that there is no one 'right' way to be gay (or to be straight for that matter). Gotta go now.

[nordkin]

I did not think you were offensive. Many people have the same questions and are afraid to ask. I think everyone is different when it comes to realizing you are gay. For me this was difficult, but with the love and support of a wonderful family I worked through it and have been happy with myself for a very long time. I think the biggest mistake anyone can make is to sterotype gay people. We are as diverse as any other group of people and we have the same challenges with friends and dating as anyone else. I look forward to the day that people start accepting everyone as they are and stop being judgmental.

[donald...really]

Your questions doesn't come off as offensive at all. The only way to learn about things you are not familiar with is to ask questions and to expose yourself to the unknown. It is proven that people who know openly gay people support gay rights more often than people who don't realize they know any gay people.

I don't know if you wanted answers to your questions, but I thought I would answer them anyway:

Q: How do you meet other gay people and approach them
A: I meet gay people the way I meet all people: I meet them at work, in the neighborhood, at parties, etc. There are many wayse to meet other gay people: there are gay dating services, gay bars, gay social groups, gay sporting groups, gay singing groups, gay theater groups, gay cruises, gay resorts, gay square dancing groups, gay rodeos, etc. etc. etc. I approach them by saying "Hi".

Q: how do you know you're gay
A: You know you're gay when you realize you are more attracted to people of the same sex than to people of the opposite sex. It is a feeling deep down inside. Many people ignore that feeling, or don't realize it is there until later in life. I imagine it is the same way people know when they are "straight"


Q: when did you first realize that you are gay
A: I realized I was attracted to boys when I was in the first grade. This was before I knew what "sex" or "gay" was. I remember seeing a picture of a boy about my age in a school book and feeling attracted to him.

Q: do you think it should be such an issue politically to be gay
A: I don't think it should be any kind of an issue. It is just how I was born.

Q: do you think all non gays are ignorant because they don't understand
A: I think some non gays do understand.

Thanks for asking.

[dkostel]

do you think it should be such an issue politically to be gay...
I don't think we're the ones who make it political, necessarily. Yes, we'd like equal rights, as would all women, as would all people of color. Basic human rights would be nice. But the recent fanning of the flames (pardon the bad pun) is just a right wing political rallying cry. If they can get the nut jobs (Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, etc.) on their side spewing hatred they can divert attention from the real nasty crap that they do all over the globe. I refuse to participate. Yes I'd like the right to marry, but I'd rather they stop killing people all over the globe in my name using my tax dollars to increase the profits of their friends corporations (KBR, Haliburton, etc.).

[RickinNYC]

Tiggeroo, your questions aren't offensive at all. In fact, I can't think of many questions that might be too offensive in any case, if they're asked in a true inquisitive manner and not with the intent to harm. I'm sure most if not all would agree with me.

As for folks lurking, I've no doubt there are dozens if not hundreds or more, that do so with this board in particular. I think I can speak for everyone in that I encourage them to do so! They'll see that we are just as normal as anyone else on the DIS, have the same hopes, dreams and wishes for ourselves, our loved ones and our families. There is truly only one major significant difference which I'm sure you're well aware of! ;)

Lurking is good. Folks can see that we're not monsters, freaks, pedophiles, recruiters (that one always always always gives me a chuckle), or anything else.

Read to your hearts content folks! Just hope you post from time to time but even if you don't, no worries.

[swtnikki]

As a straight, 26 yr. old woman who's very happily taken, I can say that I'm pro-gay. :) Some of my best friends are gay, plus I was the first one that one of my friends ever outed to. I don't judge people just on that, I do it based on personality & kindness. Some people may find it weird posting here, but I don't. All of us here have one thing in common, & that's a love of Disney. :goodvibes

[AllyCatTapia]

not "offensive" but when you say "who thinks of gays the same way as I do my best friend".... One should never think of people as a whole group like that, identified by one trait, Why don't you just think of people as individuals?

Consider this statement "I think about Blacks like I think about my best friend". Really? How about you just let people be individuals and not rope them in alltogether based on one small part of their overall person. IE- I am not a disabled person- I am a PERSON who is disabled...I am not a GAY person, I am a person who is gay...



(this is not directed at the original poster, but EVERYONE)

-Ally, a person who is also minorty, straight, buddhist republican:)

[Tony-NJ]

recruiters (that one always always always gives me a chuckle),

:lmao:

[pezpam]

Lurking is good. Folks can see that we're not monsters, freaks, pedophiles, recruiters (that one always always always gives me a chuckle), or anything else.

This kind of casual exposure is great. I've known so many people who were brought up to believe awful things about *Others* and who realized that those things were untrue once they began to meet and get to know people.

I am bummed about the recruiting program. I was gonna sign up just so my cousin could get the new toaster.... :rotfl2: (Sorry, old joke....)

[lisaviolet]

I doubt I can remember all your questions but here I go:

1) I think that one of the biggest misconceptions is that gays are all that different. There are agressive gays, shy gays, sweet gays, backstabbing gays, conservative gays etc. I am laughing right now thinking of all the combinations. You know what I am trying to say. Just like all people there are thousands of personalities, ways of thinking, ways of being. We are just people. There might be some like ways of being/thinking but our differences, just like the rest of the world, outweigh those.

2) When did I know?

I didn't. I was older....24. I fell in love/lust exactly like in Brokeback Mountain. Well not in a tent :rotfl2: but you know what I mean!!!!! It was very innoncent in the gist of I had no idea before hand. It was beautiful in its innocence. Some people know very early and know that they are sexually attracted to the same sex way before puberty. And that is great as well. Many...many different stories.

3) How do you find other gays/people to date?

Do you remember what I said about "shy gays"... well I have never been, unfortunately, the personality to go after others sexually. So, male or female, it just happened from the other end. My partner of twelve years had no idea I was gay or vice versa. I truly believe sometimes you are just "drawn". But others have many stories about going to places where there might be a lot of gays. I know there are a lot of lesbians who are athletes. Obviously, not all lesbians but a high percentage.

4) Politics

Well, I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.

First, I believe it's time to say what is great about being gay instead of always focusing on the negative (which there is of course). I mean really it is a wonderful life in many ways. No, I am not recruiting. I am talking about our countries...obviously the threat of death in some countries changes "the great life".

For example, I am white (well pink actually)...my partner is black. No one cares cause there is the bigger issue for some of them!!!
Other pluses of being gay......There is usually no pressure about marriage, children etc. all the pressures of the other side.
You can more easily decide, in my opinion, on how your life will be.
Sometimes, not always, the falling in love/attraction is so natural in the beginning because you don't even think about it.
Okay, I'll say it. Sex. I would think for most gays.....well everyone is fulfilled. :woohoo: We hear a lot from female straight friends about being frustrated. Not the same for most gays.

So being gay is wonderful in many ways.

5) More politics

Like every "group thinking" in the world..... IMO there can be a lot of crap. Like all gays should think alike. Why should we? People don't. And we are people. Makes no sense to me.

I remember not going to the "**** March" (interesting I wrote the "d" word for lesbian and it got bleeped....weird).... this one year (and many years). We went to my partner's mother's house instead. We got from a gay friend. "But why? This is your day", she says very aggressively.

No, every single day is my day.

6) Do I think that non-gays can't understand?

Sometimes yes...sometimes no. I would never have believed how I felt at first. So I can put myself in other's positions. There is a new condo here in Toronto geared/marketed for gays. My father asked me what we thought of it. (it's just down the street from me). I said, "Why would I want to live in a place where only (mostly) gays live? Does Jean (my partner) want to live where only blacks are? No we are not interested but to each their own". It's a free world.

Then my father said, "Oh I'm glad you said it. I mean gays want equal rights.....you can't have it both ways....have you heard about the push for a gay retirement home?"

Well it was an a-ha moment. My dad just hasn't thought about the "why?". We shouldn't need it. He hadn't really given a thought to it. Just judged it with his friends I am thinking. But he hadn't thought about the stories of partners not allowed to be together in the same room in old age (ie. just married/opposite sex in rooms together). He didn't think that his age group and older might be the most homophobic and that many gays going into assisted homes might not have their entire life respected and celebrated in the same way. I could tell that he, and I'm guessing his "well they can't have it both ways" friends, just hadn't thought about the reasons for wanting the retirement home. I let him know..it made me think and hopefully for him too. So sometimes there are reasons for politics.

7) The gay community

pluses and minuses. Pluses....many. I think, especially when coming to the understanding that they are gay, people need a sense of belonging and being understood. Heck, we all need that.

And of course we all wouldn't be so "free" if all the people wouldn't have spent their time/sometimes entire adult lives fighting and arguing for certain rights. And having courage to just live their lives.

But there are negatives as there are in all "groups" and "labels". I have just come to the conclusion after years of thinking that I'm gay that I'm probably bisexual or who knows. I never had a problem being gay and this realization has been hard for me. Very intereresting but unnerving. Sometimes there is no room for individual lives. The gay community sometimes hates people coming out and saying anything that denotes "choice" at all. Ie. Hey don't tell straight people there is any choice!! I think that this crap has a lot to do with self shame. Some of the most homophobic people are gay.

And I truly believe that sexuality is not static. This is an uncomfortable thought for most. I believe that some people are born gay.....100% and that some people are born straight....100% and there are many many people in between that can change and not be gay or straight. And I believe that some people's sexuality who are in between might sometimes be due to life cirmcumstances. Not all obvioulsly....but some. But you won't hear that a lot because many gays and straights want things to be black and white. But I personally think some people for sure are born gay. For sure. That's just the way it is. But I don't think it is that way for every single person.

Thank God for us/gays. A variety in life in wonderful. You only have to see a gay parade....especially in Toronto ....we are the most multicultural city in the world...so when you see all the races/cultures in the parade you start to realize how natural it is....

So thank you for all your questions tiggeroo13 because I really enjoyed writing that!!! I went way beyond your questions....sorry. What a novel!

[DVCajun]

not "offensive" but when you say "who thinks of gays the same way as I do my best friend".... One should never think of people as a whole group like that, identified by one trait, Why don't you just think of people as individuals?

Consider this statement "I think about Blacks like I think about my best friend". Really? How about you just let people be individuals and not rope them in alltogether based on one small part of their overall person. IE- I am not a disabled person- I am a PERSON who is disabled...I am not a GAY person, I am a person who is gay...



(this is not directed at the original poster, but EVERYONE)

-Ally, a person who is also minorty, straight, buddhist republican:)

I think the OP made the statement about "gay people" because this is the "gay board" and she was asking a question about "gay issues." I really don't think it was meant the way you took it, as in "it's so cool that 'you people' use forks when you eat too, I mean, I really like you guys because you're so much like real people!" She was possibly trying to express her lack of prejudice-- the unfortunate thing is that typically when someone has to express a lack of prejudice it means the exact opposite. (I do not think this is the case for the OP, however)

FWIW-- I don't find it odd that many straights visit this forum. My brother is gay and I'm interested in gay issues. I've always been puzzled by homophobia... after all, how often do we meet people who are our moral twins? But for some reason this particular issue can cause such a firestorm! Very odd. But that's another topic for another day. :wave:

[Empare]

=And I truly believe that sexuality is not static. This is an uncomfortable thought for most. I believe that some people are born gay.....100% and that some people are born straight....100% and there are many many people in between that can change and not be gay or straight. And I believe that some people's sexuality who are in between might sometimes be due to life cirmcumstances. Not all obvioulsly....but some. But you won't hear that a lot because many gays and straights want things to be black and white. But I personally think some people for sure are born gay. That's just the way it is. But I don't think it is that way for every single person.

Thanks for this entry especially! I feel like I am stuck between communties sometimes. A lot of straight people don't like me because I am bi. They think I am "confused" or "greedy" A lot of gay people don't like for the same reason. It's very frustrating and intimidating for me. I am who I am. I am attracted to all types of people and I am happy for this but it is very difficult to find people who understand where I come from. Raleigh NC is not the most understanding of cities.

[DVCajun]

. Raleigh NC is not the most understanding of cities.

:rotfl: Raleigh is my city!!

[tiggeroo13]

Thank you DVCajun. That is exactly what I meant. I could have been more clear, but in my haste...

Thanks, cuz I really didn't mean to lump gays into a "gay" classification and didn not meant to de-individualize anyone.

SeattleRedBear-it would be good to see those sites.

To everyone, thanks for your posts. I really appreciate seeing the different views everyone has on these questions.

Thanks again everyone for your posts.

[Empare]

:rotfl: Raleigh is my city!!

Really? I'm sorry. he he :rotfl2:

[DVCajun]

Really? I'm sorry. he he :rotfl2:

Don't be. :) We have our reasons for feeling prejudice-- we're a mixed race family-- and we've not had the first negative experience. I think it's a great town.

:sunny:

[themudd4]

Thanks for this entry especially! I feel like I am stuck between communties sometimes. A lot of straight people don't like me because I am bi. They think I am "confused" or "greedy" A lot of gay people don't like for the same reason. It's very frustrating and intimidating for me. I am who I am. I am attracted to all types of people and I am happy for this but it is very difficult to find people who understand where I come from. Raleigh NC is not the most understanding of cities.

I know this is going to sound rude to someone...so in advance...SORRY!

Who cares what anyone else thinks! If your gay, be happy...if your str8, be happy...and if your bi, be happy. The only one that needs to worry about your life and how you live it is you!
I am sure that some "STUPID" person has made you feel like your not thinking right...well if they need to "judge" you then they are the one with the problem!

Just for the record, I am a Happily married 29+4 year young woman. That doesn't make me gay, str8, or bi...it makes me...ME!

[SeattleRedBear]

SeattleRedBear-it would be good to see those sites.
Hey Tigger -- Here's a short list of websites that might answer some of the questions you posed earlier. Hope anyone who is interested will contribute. I debated about whether to PM these to you or post to the group but since we know there are lurkers that might find this of interest as well, decided to post. If Rick or Viki think this is off-topic for the forum, I'll be happy to PM these to you.

Parents, Family & Friends of Lesbians & Gays: http://www.pflag.org
FAQ: http://www.pflag.org/index.php?id=83
Coming out stories: http://www.pflag.org/index.php?id=90

About Gay Life: http://http://gaylife.about.com/
Coming Out: http://gaylife.about.com/od/comingout/
Gay Love & Sex Advice: http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaysexadvice/
This website has a ton of content and if you're willing to go exploring you can probably find out more than you ever wanted to know.

American Psychology Association 'Answers to Your Questions about Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality': http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

Young Gay America: http://www.younggayamerica.com/index1.shtml
Gives me hope for the future!

Human Rights Campaign Fund: http://www.hrc.org
Gay & Lesbian Political Action Committee

[Kaelyn]

you know what is frustrating for me? the same things as everyone else: being stereotyped. i am a politically conservative, bible thumping, white bread, anti-feminist, straight female who is married with a baby son. my best friend is a gay man. i have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant). i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." but my best friend, as all people, is an adult and can make the choice for himself who he sleeps with. it is not my place to tell him what to do. he knows how i feel about it, because if anyone asks me my opinions i will tell them without fear or shame, but i will not tell someone else how to live their life (with the exception of my husband ~ i think i can tell him who to sleep with and who not to!!) and yet i am constantly accused of being homophobic because i am a republican or of being judgemental because i am a christian. and you know what? i think that more conservative christians feel the way that i do than are given credit. it is just that no one listens to anyone anymore because everyone thinks that they already know what someone will say.

just had to vent a little here... sorry!!! :)

[True North]

Hi Kaelyn! I'm a little lost on you post. Are you sure you are not being accused of being homophobic because of your "very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex"? That seems to be more a reason to me then your political party or religion. For example, the only Christian pastor I know is one of the wonderful moderators of this board and clearly no one is saying she is homophobic because of her religion.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you take offence to being called homophobic? Just because of what you said in the above I would put you in that catagory, yet it seems as if this is offensive to you. Is it becuase you do not tell people what to do that you do not consider yourself this way, or is it becuase you have a gay friend? I guess I am just confussed on why someone would be offended when they seem to fit the bill. Sorry to ask all this, but as you might guess not too many people with your views stop by here.

[iankh]

... i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." ...

Super-rights? In my day, they were called equal rights.

You mean wanting my property protected is super-rights?

You mean fighting against the fact that my partner and I of 19 years don't have the same rights as opposite-sex couples is super-rights?

You mean the fact that if I or my partner of 19 years gets seriously ill that we have no rights to have a say what happens in the hosiptal or visit them is super-rights?

Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn if you approve or disapprove of me. But let's face it, I pay taxes, lots of them and for that I am treated to inferior status and protection under the law.

But then I might just be one of them uppity homos who doesn't know my place.

[gabbysmom04]

I am a 26 yr old married woman. I enjoy reading these boards! I love to
comment on the L word thread and read what other people think about different things. I at times feel odd because I am not one or the other. I am just glad that this board was started. I also want to add that I am so sick of people asking if they should take their familes to WDW during gay days. As if people would be doing it on main street. Well, that has nothing to do with this thread but I had to vent that! :sunny:

[RickinNYC]

you know what is frustrating for me? the same things as everyone else: being stereotyped. i am a politically conservative, bible thumping, white bread, anti-feminist, straight female who is married with a baby son. my best friend is a gay man. i have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant). i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." but my best friend, as all people, is an adult and can make the choice for himself who he sleeps with. it is not my place to tell him what to do. he knows how i feel about it, because if anyone asks me my opinions i will tell them without fear or shame, but i will not tell someone else how to live their life (with the exception of my husband ~ i think i can tell him who to sleep with and who not to!!) and yet i am constantly accused of being homophobic because i am a republican or of being judgemental because i am a christian. and you know what? i think that more conservative christians feel the way that i do than are given credit. it is just that no one listens to anyone anymore because everyone thinks that they already know what someone will say.

just had to vent a little here... sorry!!! :)

Kaelyn, perhaps you should sit quietly by yourself and truly consider why anyone would accuse you of being homophobic. In fact, I strongly advise that you read and reread your post above. I suspect that such accusations were made, not because you are Christian or Republican, but because you "have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant)." Plus, you admittedly "have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights.""

One shouldn't have to justify one's opinions ever, not if you know those opinions aren't offensive. But if they are, and sorry sweetie, but your opinions are shockingly, stupifyingly, horrifyingly offensive, then yeah, I guess you should expect folks to ask for justification AND you should expect to be labeled as biased.

Nevertheless, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. Fair is fair.

[Mama Twinkles]

Kaelyn, I grabbed the following quote from the PFLAG website:

Why should I support gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights?

"GLBT rights are not special rights. PFLAG works to achieve equal civil rights for all people, including our gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) loved ones. Because our GLBT children, friends and family members deserve the same rights as our straight ones; because discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity is still legal in many states; because a GLBT person can be fired from their job simply because of who they love or how they express their gender; because same sex couples cannot legally be married in the majority of states in the United States; because GLBT youth face constant harassment and abuse in schools across the country; because the road to full equality and acceptance is a long one - PFLAG needs you to stand up and join us in our work. Your loved one needs you to take a stand for fairness. By being open about yourself and your family you are already helping to dispel misinformation and fear. You can take the next step by joining PFLAG as we support, educate and advocate for a better world."

I hope that you will become a real ally to gays and lesbians (for your sake, for your best friend's and for all of us). I sense that you genuinely do not see yourself as homophobic, and that you may be ready to reevaluate some long-and dearly held beliefs. Sometimes it is the tenets of one's religious sect that need to be questioned, especially when they interfere with deep acceptance of other humans. Your gay neighbors are law-abiding, loving, taxpaying citizens who are persecuted daily because of a difference. Kaelyn, our difference is biological regardless of what your church has told you. There is not a serious scientific researcher in the field who believes otherwise. We do not choose our sexual orientations and they do not render us immoral, immature or sick.

I beg you to educate yourself on the matter of biology. Here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Biology Here is one quote from that article: "Homosexual behaviour is common in the animal kingdom, especially in species closer to humans on the evolutionary scale, such as the great apes. Georgetown University professor Janet Mann has specifically theorised that homosexuality, at least in dolphins, is an evolutionary advantage that minimises intraspecies aggression, especially among males." Surely you would agree that animals don't "choose" to be gay. Here is another good article with a nice survey of the biological literature: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay/?page=1

Education will lead you to acceptance; bigotry is rooted in ignorance. Truth will prevail with or without you and other evangelicals, Kaelyn. The choice is yours. But we would welcome adding your voice to our growing chorus.

[themudd4]

you know what is frustrating for me? the same things as everyone else: being stereotyped. i am a politically conservative, bible thumping, white bread, anti-feminist, straight female who is married with a baby son. my best friend is a gay man. i have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant). i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." but my best friend, as all people, is an adult and can make the choice for himself who he sleeps with. it is not my place to tell him what to do. he knows how i feel about it, because if anyone asks me my opinions i will tell them without fear or shame, but i will not tell someone else how to live their life (with the exception of my husband ~ i think i can tell him who to sleep with and who not to!!) and yet i am constantly accused of being homophobic because i am a republican or of being judgemental because i am a christian. and you know what? i think that more conservative christians feel the way that i do than are given credit. it is just that no one listens to anyone anymore because everyone thinks that they already know what someone will say.

just had to vent a little here... sorry!!! :)

Let's see where to start...
Being a christian myself, I just keep thinking of something I read once in a really good book...Jugde not less ye be jugded.

If I were a lesbian I would hope that no one would jugde me and make me feel less than what I am. I would hope to have the same rights as anyone else. If I had to fight for those rights I would! I don't think anyone is asking for anything more or less.

If your best firend is a gay man then you might be able to see into his life a little and see what he faces day to day. But then again, if he knows your feelings on this issue he may feel uncomfortable being able to come to you with a situations and problems he may be facing. If so, I am sorry...as for my best friend can come to me about anything, and know I am there for them 100%.

A lil off subject:
My Nephew has not came out of the closet to anyone...(and I may be jumping the gun a little) but he has gave me hints, asked me questions about my opinion on the issue and asked how I would treat a family member. My anwser is the same everytime. If your gay, be happy, if your str8 be happy and if your bi be happy. Don't let anyone else be the bearer of your happiness. And as for me...I will love him just as much if not more than ever. I just want him to be able to be honest with me as well as himself. My DH thinks the only reason he continues to come to me is because his parent's are to the extreme in the other direction.

[Empare]

I know this is going to sound rude to someone...so in advance...SORRY!

Who cares what anyone else thinks! If your gay, be happy...if your str8, be happy...and if your bi, be happy. The only one that needs to worry about your life and how you live it is you!
I am sure that some "STUPID" person has made you feel like your not thinking right...well if they need to "judge" you then they are the one with the problem!

Just for the record, I am a Happily married 29+4 year young woman. That doesn't make me gay, str8, or bi...it makes me...ME!

Thanks. I appreciate a boost like this and I agree with you. You are right too about some "STUPID" person. I had what I thought was a good likable group of friends that I have known for years. When I finally came out to them last year, I lost every single one of them. They would meet together and pray that I would change. Now I get a phone call every now and then from one of them asking if I am "back to normal" when I say no, they hang up. :furious:
It really grinds my gears! Anyways, thanks again for reminding me to be true to myself.

[beckmrk04]

Kaelyn,
What exactly is "white bread"? And why are you anti-feminist? Are you anti-voting? Anti-women's education? And although I am a straight, white married 24 year old female, I recognize that all anyone wants are EQUAL rights, not "super rights." They want to go to bed each night with the security that legally recognized marriage provides. If, God forbid, something should happen to their partners, their loved ones, they want to be able to make decisions about their future, just like a husband and wife are able to do. These aren't super rights. They are basic rights that are being denied. They want to be able to show affection in public without people acting like it's some sort of sex show. They want to be able to have families. And they want support and understanding, just like you or I. Please consider that. Maybe your post came off as stronger than you intended. But when you make comments like yours, you are opening yourself to the very thing you seem to want to distance yourself from.

[iankh]

Kaelyn,
What exactly is "white bread"? And why are you anti-feminist? Are you anti-voting? Anti-women's education? And although I am a straight, white married 24 year old female, I recognize that all anyone wants are EQUAL rights, not "super rights." They want to go to bed each night with the security that legally recognized marriage provides. If, God forbid, something should happen to their partners, their loved ones, they want to be able to make decisions about their future, just like a husband and wife are able to do. These aren't super rights. They are basic rights that are being denied. They want to be able to show affection in public without people acting like it's some sort of sex show. They want to be able to have families. And they want support and understanding, just like you or I. Please consider that. Maybe your post came off as stronger than you intended. But when you make comments like yours, you are opening yourself to the very thing you seem to want to distance yourself from.

Thank you. Extremely well stated.

[mickeymousemom]

Okay, I entered this forum because I haven't been on DIS in awhile and was glad to see that the forum had been started. Then I clicked on this thread. How interesting. I had planned to use this forum the same as any other forum. For tips and hints and the best places to go. I am so glad to see a discussion like this one. I am a 40 yo straight married mother of 3. My best friend thru school(we still keep in touch, but he lives a few states away) was a gay guy. One of DH's best friends is a lesbian. I get SO tired of seeing people act as though its such a horrible thing when gays march, speak, and plead for rights just like I have. I was able to marry the man i loved in a LEGAL and CHRISTIAN ceremony. I am able to use the insurance provided to my DH thru his workplace. If something happens to one of us and we're attached to a respirator(makes me sick thinking of it), the other can make choices that seem the best for us and those decisions would be implemented by the hospital. I fully believe in these rights for EVERYONE. I have always been at a loss as to why being gay is so horrible to some people. It involves loving another person and what is so bad about that? Yes, there are gays who date around for awhile until they find their lifelong partner, and there are others who choose to stay single for life(just as straight people sometimes do). Believe it or not, people of different races, religions, and ethnicities also do this :rolleyes: . I have taught my children about all kinds of different people and if one of them chooses(or has been born with) this lifestyle, then as long as they;re happy, so are DH and I! If we happen to be there at the right time, then I will proudly take my children to WDW during gay days, during which I can assure you they won't be :eek: at the guests wearing red shirts walking hand in hand. Hatred comes in many forms and I see it alot from so called "deeply religious" people and Christians. Its so incredibly sad. People who are gay are just that. The only thing that makes them different from straights is their ability to be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. We are all human. Chemistry is chemistry and love is love. None of us can help who we love at any given time. We are ALL(regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference) mothers, fathers, factory workers, doctors, best friends, siblings, and on the flip side we are ALL also criminals(some of us use the Dining Plan in the manner in which it supposedly was NOT intended) and non Disney fans(:rolleyes: :) ). Pat Robertson exhausts me most of the time. It all comes down to this...

Judge not lest ye be judged.

[Kaelyn]

sorry, guys. i didn't mean to bail on this thread, but my newborn had bad reactions to vaccinations on monday, and we have had a rough week. i don't have time to read all the responses now, but i do want to apologize for starting something and for offending people, as i seem to have done. i will just briefly say that my friend was already out when we met and he is fully aware of my feelings and that they don't stop me from loving him or supporting his right to choose that lifestyle as opposed to any other one. i grew up in the "happy valley" of western mass near northampton where gay-ness is shoved down peoples throats and the politics of it all is very hot. i do think that much of what the gay community is after are rights that are above and beyond ~ i also do not have the right to marry anyone i choose ~ and that they bible is very clear about the sinful nature of non-marital sex, and sin that i am guilty of and repentant of myself. i will try to read what has been written and form a better response in the next several days, but please be patient with me! my time between nursings and diapers and vomittings and naps is limited!

[SeattleRedBear]

Here's a toast to

disneynutt1225, jackskellingtonsgirl, cityofweasels, Disneyrsh, KittyKitty, WDW Poly Princess, lovethattink, Meezers, Laurajean1014, DMRick, belle of the ball, mickeyfan1, iliketoby, DutchsMommy, chell, MissMichelle, tiggeroo13, swtnikki, DVCajun, themudd4, beckmrk04, mickeymousemom, curiouser, Stacerita, pjpoohbear, kpk89, olbear, Teresa Pitman, Cheshire Figment, Azure, tmt martins, SunFloridaDisney, FergieTCat, mushumadness, gabbysmom04, luvmydogs, FutureAshleyDukes, FionaLovesShrek, MOMOFMNM, Tinker*Shell*Bell, kpm76, SaraMc, horsegirl, WDWPartyof5, doombuggy3, Paul in TX, subtchr, Brian Noble, KatheeME, Skroops, Tiggernut jadie, horsegirl, melomouse, JennyMominRI, Bronte, Wolfen-Sensei

And all the other CSP on these boards and in the world!

:drinking1

Let's hope that some year, we will all be CP. :thanks:

[curiouser]

~ i also do not have the right to marry anyone i choose ~


Kaelyn, I'm genuinely intrigued by your above statement. I'd love for you to expand on it. With the exception of minors (obviously) or another female (in some states) why could you not marry who you choose?

And have you ever stopped to think that for gay people, straightness is shoved down their throats?

Eh, but what the heck.. someone might just stereotype me as just an liberal, opinionated, equalitist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain bread loving, straight white girl. And I am. And proud.

[iankh]

Kaelyn, I'm genuinely intrigued by your above statement. I'd love for you to expand on it. With the exception of minors (obviously) or another female (in some states) why could you not marry who you choose?

And have you ever stopped to think that for gay people, straightness is shoved down their throats?

Eh, but what the heck.. someone might just stereotype me as just an liberal, opinionated, equalitist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain bread loving, straight white girl. And I am. And proud.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Mama Twinkles]

Okay, I entered this forum because I haven't been on DIS in awhile and was glad to see that the forum had been started. Then I clicked on this thread. How interesting. I had planned to use this forum the same as any other forum. For tips and hints and the best places to go. I am so glad to see a discussion like this one. I am a 40 yo straight married mother of 3. My best friend thru school(we still keep in touch, but he lives a few states away) was a gay guy. One of DH's best friends is a lesbian. I get SO tired of seeing people act as though its such a horrible thing when gays march, speak, and plead for rights just like I have. I was able to marry the man i loved in a LEGAL and CHRISTIAN ceremony. I am able to use the insurance provided to my DH thru his workplace. If something happens to one of us and we're attached to a respirator(makes me sick thinking of it), the other can make choices that seem the best for us and those decisions would be implemented by the hospital. I fully believe in these rights for EVERYONE. I have always been at a loss as to why being gay is so horrible to some people. It involves loving another person and what is so bad about that? Yes, there are gays who date around for awhile until they find their lifelong partner, and there are others who choose to stay single for life(just as straight people sometimes do). Believe it or not, people of different races, religions, and ethnicities also do this :rolleyes: . I have taught my children about all kinds of different people and if one of them chooses(or has been born with) this lifestyle, then as long as they;re happy, so are DH and I! If we happen to be there at the right time, then I will proudly take my children to WDW during gay days, during which I can assure you they won't be :eek: at the guests wearing red shirts walking hand in hand. Hatred comes in many forms and I see it alot from so called "deeply religious" people and Christians. Its so incredibly sad. People who are gay are just that. The only thing that makes them different from straights is their ability to be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. We are all human. Chemistry is chemistry and love is love. None of us can help who we love at any given time. We are ALL(regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference) mothers, fathers, factory workers, doctors, best friends, siblings, and on the flip side we are ALL also criminals(some of us use the Dining Plan in the manner in which it supposedly was NOT intended) and non Disney fans(:rolleyes: :) ). Pat Robertson exhausts me most of the time. It all comes down to this...

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Your post warms my heart. Thank you, mickeymousemom, for being here and for speaking up. You are the kind of mom that other people's kids will come to for support when they realize they are gay, a treasure for any frightened teen.

[beckmrk04]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Here here!! Me either..

And SeattleRedBear, Thank you for including me in your cool people toast, I'm honored.

And curiouser, it's as though I found my liberal, opinionated, equalist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain loving straight white girl twin. You rock.

To all the LBGT or CSP here: I applaud all of you for your love and courage and support of each other. Never let anyone tell you that your love is wrong. There is too much hate in the world. Be proud of who you are and who you love. :grouphug:

[RickinNYC]

Kaelyn, I had already sent you a link to an earlier post on this very board that makes it very obvious why the gay and lesbian community demands EQUAL rights. I will post it here for you once again: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1025178

If, after reading that article, you still feel the need to question our stance and to put our position into one of "super" rights, the clearly your mind cannot be changed. That said, I don't understand your need to continue this line of questioning.

And by the way, it's been said on this thread before, as well as said on the board as a whole, and in the news, text books, etc... It is NOT a lifestyle "choice" which for some reason you keep passively/aggressively suggesting. The only choice involved is whether one decides to accept the fact that one is gay/lesbian OR whether one chooses to do what is more socially, politically and religiously acceptable and put blinders on, get married, have children and risk ruining not just one life but several. If you find that lifestyle "choice" more acceptalbe, then you need to reconsider the true definition of family values.

[nwdisgal]

I always cringe when I hear the immorality of homosexuality discussed in the context of religion. Religion should be a positive in peoples lives, or one would hope, but it can have such devastating effects to the contrary.

I have a family member who is deceased :( largely because her religion told her it was a sin to be gay. She was a devout Catholic (I'm not personally bashing Catholics - just happened to be her sect of the religion that was anti-gay). Anyway, she struggled with her devotion to her faith all her life and being a lesbian. I wonder how different her life would have been, if she had a positive influence of religion in her life rather than a negative one. It seems to me an odd paradox that Christianity is built around Jesus Christ, who represented a loving, non-judgemental person that advocated for the equality of all mankind. Yes, we all have the right to worship freely, but the doctrine of intolerence that comes out of some sects of the Christian faith seems so un-Christian like to me. :confused3 JMO.

[mickeyfan1]

The one thing I can't figure out about kaelyn and a couple of other posters here is are they trying to start some huge fight amongst us? If so, I think that it isn't working. I can't agree with the narrow minded view she has taken, but I am so proud of the gay, lesbians, bi, transgendered, and straight posters who have not taken the bait and have responded in a civil and educated way. Her mind isn't going to be changed, but it is her loss. There will always be prejudice in the world, and in the US. I believe that as time continues more and more acceptance will persevere, rights will be granted, and the world will be a better place.

Remember when the head of Spain declared equal rights for gays last year. THe world didn't come to an end. Canada allows marraige between gays, the world has not ended. And on and on. It's going to happen here, I know it. Perhaps the ultra right conservatives will feel the backlash against their own bigotry. Hiding behind Cristianity won't get it forever, either.

[True North]

I am so proud of the gay, lesbians, bi, transgendered, and straight posters who have not taken the bait and have responded in a civil and educated way.

Being from Canada and just finishing the fight for equal marriage, that is the only way for things will get done. Through civil, educated discussions the GLTB community can showcase their need for equality. Through fighting and arguing it become an issue of "us versus them" which is much harder to win.

I am very lucky to be from Canada. I would be interested to hear how one would think the gay community in the United States is trying to obtain "super-rights." I have never heard someone say the GLTB community in Canada has obtained "super-rights" yet our country is so much farther along. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada ensures equality, no matter sex, race, sexual preference, religion, or ethnic background. This equality has ensure all minority rights, which was just seen through the laws regarding same-sex marriage.

The thing I find fun is how often gay rights are mentioned in American news. It seems once a week there is a story about it, whether there is a fight in favour or against. Here the GLTB community as a whole is rearly in the news becuase we have been given equality and there is little else to be said. It may seem like one is looking for super rights, but just by granting equality you will see nothing more is asked for.

[mickeymousemom]

Your post warms my heart. Thank you, mickeymousemom, for being here and for speaking up. You are the kind of mom that other people's kids will come to for support when they realize they are gay, a treasure for any frightened teen.


No problem here. I have had quite the arguments with my in-laws about this. When DH and I first married, he was a little more close minded than I, though more open-minded than the rest of his family. It was interesting to see him come around...esp. after he started working with a girl who happened to be a lesbian and began to REALLY see what I had been trying to tell him for so many months. This is the 21st century, and why this country and others find it so doggone hard to let people live their lives in a peaceful manner, I'll never know. The sheer ignorance and judgmental ways of so many people TICK me off. Being gay is not a sin, but for those people who think it is...look at yourselves in the mirror and be ready...you'll be standing in line with the rest of us on judgment day.

BTW....I absolutely LOVE these boards. The diversity of people is awesome. And I love being able to politely speak my mind. Other boards don't even allow that past a certain degree. I hope to eventually make many friends here! :grouphug:

[nwdisgal]

Being from Canada and just finishing the fight for equal marriage, that is the only way for things will get done. Through civil, educated discussions the GLTB community can showcase their need for equality. Through fighting and arguing it become an issue of "us versus them" which is much harder to win.

I am very lucky to be from Canada. I would be interested to hear how one would think the gay community in the United States is trying to obtain "super-rights." I have never heard someone say the GLTB community in Canada has obtained "super-rights" yet our country is so much farther along. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada ensures equality, no matter sex, race, sexual preference, religion, or ethnic background. This equality has ensure all minority rights, which was just seen through the laws regarding same-sex marriage.

The thing I find fun is how often gay rights are mentioned in American news. It seems once a week there is a story about it, whether there is a fight in favour or against. Here the GLTB community as a whole is rearly in the news becuase we have been given equality and there is little else to be said. It may seem like one is looking for super rights, but just by granting equality you will see nothing more is asked for.

Your right. It is just equality we're talking about. It seems like we in the US could learn some lessons from our neighbors to the North.

[padalyn]

Tiggerroo - you are asking questions that a lot of people ask. Just keep asking! As someone else posted - any question asked in search of information/knowledge/enlightenment is a good question. To answer some of your questions:

1: meeting? same as any straight couple, trial and error. Yes, there are specific places such as clubs, dinners, bars - but the process is the same as for hetero couples/folks.

2: how do you know you're gay - you find the same sex more interesting than the opposite. Not just sexually, but in all ways. I told someone once that a lesbian has the best of all worlds - your best friend is your lover AND you can share clothes :)

3: when did you first realize that you are gay - when relationships with men didn't work over and over - I decided to look at why...found the problem wasn't the people, but the plumbing!


4: do you think it should be such an issue politically to be gay - someome else posted that stopping violence is more important (I agree), but politics being what they are those who indulge will use what ever weapon to get what they desire (power). I feel it is wrong, but am unable to change it at this point in time.

5: do you think all non gays are ignorant because they don't understand - NOPE< NOPE, NOPE....most people are ignorant because they are afraid, lazy, or apathetic towards learning and expanding themselves. Fear begats Fear, stop the fear and understanding and acceptance will follow.

I am openly gay, supported by family and friends and have a wonderful relationship - with my GF and her mom, my GF AND her mom and my mom all get along well - can any couple ask for more???

[themudd4]

I always cringe when I hear the immorality of homosexuality discussed in the context of religion. Religion should be a positive in peoples lives, or one would hope, but it can have such devastating effects to the contrary.

I have a family member who is deceased :( largely because her religion told her it was a sin to be gay. She was a devout Catholic (I'm not personally bashing Catholics - just happened to be her sect of the religion that was anti-gay). Anyway, she struggled with her devotion to her faith all her life and being a lesbian. I wonder how different her life would have been, if she had a positive influence of religion in her life rather than a negative one. It seems to me an odd paradox that Christianity is built around Jesus Christ, who represented a loving, non-judgemental person that advocated for the equality of all mankind. Yes, we all have the right to worship freely, but the doctrine of intolerence that comes out of some sects of the Christian faith seems so un-Christian like to me. :confused3 JMO.

While I agree with the fact that I can't stand when I hear someone say IT IS A SIN...I don't totally agree that Christian faith is un-Christian like.
Don't let a few...ok more than a few, narrow minded so called christians speak for the entire Christian faith. Even though it is Sunday I don't plan on preaching to or at you. I just wanted to let you know that I too am a Christian. I am very open minded, non judgemental, love one another kinda gal! Don't let one (or two) sour pickle's make you dumb the entire jar!

[nwdisgal]

While I agree with the fact that I can't stand when I hear someone say IT IS A SIN...I don't totally agree that Christian faith is un-Christian like.
Don't let a few...ok more than a few, narrow minded so called christians speak for the entire Christian faith. Even though it is Sunday I don't plan on preaching to or at you. I just wanted to let you know that I too am a Christian. I am very open minded, non judgemental, love one another kinda gal! Don't let one (or two) sour pickle's make you dumb the entire jar!

I'm a Christian too and used to teach Sunday School. I wasn't bashing Christians as a whole or people individually for being a Christian. I hope you didn't take it as such. I don't associate Christianity with being a hypocrit. Not at all! What I was saying is that there are some people who call themselves Christians, but don't act very Christian-like in the way they treat people. That is the person though - not the religion. You can have someone sit through a sermon on kindness and generosity to others, and walk out of the church and forget all that was said inside the church and be a jerk. You could have that in any religion, I was just illustrating Christianity as an example, because it is a religion that I am familiar with.

[themudd4]

I'm a Christian too and used to teach Sunday School. I wasn't bashing Christians as a whole or people individually for being a Christian. I hope you didn't take it as such. I don't associate Christianity with being a hypocrit. Not at all! What I was saying is that there are some people who call themselves Christians, but don't act very Christian-like in the way they treat people. That is the person though - not the religion. You can have someone sit through a sermon on kindness and generosity to others, and walk out of the church and forget all that was said inside the church and be a jerk. You could have that in any religion, I was just illustrating Christianity as an example, because it is a religion that I am familiar with.

OKAY! Oops...my bad! :rolleyes1

Guess I just read it wrong. Hard to hear the tone of ones voice while they are typing! :lmao:

[nwdisgal]

OKAY! Oops...my bad! :rolleyes1

Guess I just read it wrong. Hard to hear the tone of ones voice while they are typing! :lmao:

Yah, I agree with you. :sunny: It is hard to tell a person's tone - that is the one thing I don't like about internet or e-mail.

[d4est]

Q: when did you first realize that you are gay
A: I realized I was attracted to boys when I was in the first grade. This was before I knew what "sex" or "gay" was. I remember seeing a picture of a boy about my age in a school book and feeling attracted to him.
Seriously? 1st grade? My DS is in 3 grade. It is very hard, nope, make that impossible, for me to imagine him being attracted to anyone, no matter the sex!

Of course I will probably still feel that way when he is 40!

I really don't remember first grade, except that my teacher was a big meanie. I guess I first felt attracted (crush) to someone around the 5th grade. Late bloomer, I am!

ETA: I keep reading about "super rights." What does this mean? I hadn't heard it until reading this board.

[donald...really]

A few notes and observations I made while reading this thread:

d4est: Yes, I was in the first grade. Like I said, it wasn't about sex, I don't even think I would call it a crush. I just clearly remember looking and looking at that picture of the cute little blond boy in my book and feeling something deep down in my stomach. It is not uncommon for gay people to say the first time they knew they were "different" was when they were about 6 years old.

Empare: When you get a phone call from one of your old friends asking if you are "back to normal", the answer is not "NO". The answer is "I have always been normal. For me, being gay IS normal. Hate and homophobia is not normal. Abandoning your friends because of who they are is not normal. Why don't you call me when YOU are normal". And then hang up.

Kaelyn: I am not about to try and change your mind, or open your mind to how homophobic you truly are. I am not going to say the same things people have been saying for years and you have chosen to ignore (that it is not a choice, that they are EQUAL rights not special rights, etc etc etc). I just want to say I am glad you are not this gay mans best friend. Because as they say, with friends like you, who needs enemies.

My husband just told me dinner is ready. Tonight was his night to cook, but I get to clean up.

Peace all.

[AnimalCrossingDude]

hello i love disboards

[RickinNYC]

hello i love disboards

Hi and welcome to the DIS AnimalCrossingDude. Why the sad face though?